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Twitch-based skills in an MMORPG?
just2duh
Member Posts: 1,290
Anyone remember a little game called Legend of the Dragoon on the ps1? Probably not, it was a turn-based final fantasy 7 "clone"(as alot of people passed it off as).
But despite that, one of the most memoriable parts of that game was it's use of skills. In order to propperly execute your attack or skill you needed to time and sync up with a variety of button sequences as they appeared, each unique to whatever skill you used. If you used a skill that strikes multiple times you actually had to time each strike. If you failed to keep in sync with it, your attack would be cut short and you do far less damage.
I may not be explaining that too well, anyone who has played this game should understand. But just to be clear i'll put it into more modern terms.. think God of War and how the boss battles worked, but that sequence of popup buttons is needed for every use of a skill or attack.
Of course for this to work in a real-time mmorpg, it could really only apply to skill use and not regular melee attacks(that would just be too much).
Instead of just pressing '1 - 0' to do lets say 'Multi-strike' and having that skill happen automatically, you would instead need to pay attention and propperly time each strike as 'Multi-strike' played out. Possibly by pressing the same key you used to start 'Multi-strike' when prompted.
This one feature was the only reason I enjoyed playing Dragoon, and i'm really curious as to why it has never been adapted to an MMO?
As far as I know this has never been done in a "WoW-style" mmo, and I think it could easily be done. Though of course a poor connection or server could probably kill the fun, but if working propperly it would really spice up even the most simple of mmorpg's, giving combat more depth and require actual skill to defeat someone in a PvP battle, instead of depending souly on who has the better equipment.
Comments
You know why MMO companies don't implement more twitch? Because they would lose majority of their customers if they do. As much as people like to brag about their skills, a lot of the MMO gamers aren't good twitch players. Twitch comes from fps genre, you are either good or you aren't. In fps games back in the days, you could tell a good player from bad twitch player right away. They don't want to make that distinction in MMO's because they need the subscription money.
Look at AC1, it was twitch based gameplay, but it was nowhere near as popular as stand-n-cast EQ. Too many people in MMO's don't actually want complex combat systems because it's too tedious. Even in a game like WoW or any MMO's today, many people have to use addons to enhance their gameplay (in other words, make things easier and less tedious). I would say most gamers especially in the MMO genre aren't good at twitch, that's why companies try to avoid it as much as possible.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
If people want to play that sort of game, then I hope developers make some good ones for them to play.
I'm not interested in twitch skills in my RPG's.
I do like to play First Person Shooters, but I also like to play RPGs.
I think it would not spice up the game, but do the opposite and make it more boring.
You can always get better gear, or more levels. But you'll never get the twitch skills of the best guy or gal on the server.
You raise some very valid points, but I believe there would still be a market for it. I for one refuse to pay for the experience as it is, especially when every f2p game out there offers the same basic gameplay as any p2p.
Now if a game were to come out with more inovative and challenging combat features, like previously mentioned, I wouldn't think twice about subscribing and paying monthly for that.
You mean like AoC did a couple years ago?
You mean like AoC did a couple years ago?
I'm not sure, completly avoided that one with it being conan and all. But if it had as deep of combat system as i'm referencing, i'd probably be playing it.
and that is bad how? both reward the player, but in twitch based games that reward is hard earned, instead of being handed to him in a silver plate because a binary number reached a certain memory address where its stored that he is "better" than me.
I respect more the guy with crazy skills that wiped the floor with my ass, than the guy who beats me because the client says his gear is "A" and mine is "B".
And how wouldnt it spice the game? what does a level 80 fear from a lvl60 in your average mmo? absolutly nothing
now make the game twitch based, and the 80 no longer can be overconfident when dealing with the lvl60...making the gameplay more exciting for both.
Try it, it does have a more complex combat system. Report back after a few weeks and let us know what you think.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Not directed at you Ihmotepp, but twitch has its place. If a game doesn't have very deep tactic/strategic options then twitch can go a long way towards making it exciting even if its not interesting, but a slow paced game with no tactic/strategic options has no redeeming qualities (not exciting and not interesting). Most popular MMOG's fall into the later category.
Try it, it does have a more complex combat system. Report back after a few weeks and let us know what you think.
For a twitch combat MMOG, my first stop would probably be D&D Online, then The Chronicles of Spellborn, then maybe AoC.
Try it, it does have a more complex combat system. Report back after a few weeks and let us know what you think.
For a twitch combat MMOG, my first stop would probably be D&D Online, then The Chronicles of Spellborn, then maybe AoC.
I've been playing ddo on and off for a month or two now, the combat is more rewarding, yet it still has the same basics to it, only difference is you're half aiming (the game still auto-targets but that is fine) and just holding down the mouse button to attack. Overall the game itself is seriously lacking some of the best elements to an rpg, especially exp for just plain killing things without needing a kill:X ammount quest lol.
Spellborn, not so much.. if it's the same game i'm thinking of, it felt really slow and clunky, almost turn based slow.
I might give aoc a try sometime, but i've heard nothing but bad things, it's even at the bottom of your recommend, so I don't know if it will offer what i'm craving in an mmo.
(btw sry slow responses lol, cooking/eating)
I would guess you never played past level 10 given your comments. The game itself was slow, but not the combat and definitely not after you've got your skills fleshed out. Starting out with rank 0 PeP and only a couple skills made combat a chore. It picks up nicely by the time you're done with the first couple zones.
It does seem like every game that has a great combat system is equally flawed in some other aspect of the game. AoC is a solid game, but the twitch combat is a little too 'simon says' repeat the combo oriented.
I think it would be cool if timing your attacks to your character animation would result in higher chance of crits. That is, instead of 'spamming' the next button as soon as the global cooldown is up you time your next attack to start when the animation of the last attack ends.
Twitch-based gaming doesn't really appeal to most mainstream MMO (EQ/WOW/LOTRO/etc) fans. It does have its audience, however. Games like Valkyrie Sky, Puzzle Pirates and Dragonica are very popular, but there is an even bigger segment - MMOFPS fans. Crossfire, Wolf Team, Sudden Attack, and Combat Arms have a really big following.
There's a lot of differnt types of MMOs out there. The more your tastes diverge from the standard fare of orcs and elves, the more you have to dig some to find an MMO that has the features you'd like. The most importnat thing is to NOT look for those features in mainstream MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Even something like that would be a step in the right direction, to maybe ease people into the idea. It requires skill, but yet at the same time does not over-reward the player for well timed playing.
Though I would still preffer greater consequences, like incomplete skill damage for improper timing/missed "oppertunities".
I won't deny that those games are indeed twitch based, but not in the same sense as i'm thinking. I'm thinking something much more deep and intuitive, not just pressing a button once and letting the skill's animation take over, but instead you're basically in control of that skill's animation by timing button presses in order to complete that skill with it's full damage.
Really the only game I can think of that does this the same way is Dragoon.
I won't deny that those games are indeed twitch based, but not in the same sense as i'm thinking. I'm thinking something much more deep and intuitive, not just pressing a button once and letting the skill's animation take over, but instead you're basically in control of that skill's animation by timing button presses in order to complete that skill with it's full damage.
Really the only game I can think of that does this the same way is Dragoon.
You quote me and specifically add an underline to Dragonica - a game with combo moves and where timing attacks is necessary to stack them. I guess I'm not following what you are describing. The point still stands though that most fantasy MMO gamers are more into stats dictating damage, attack, crit, dodge, etc and not player actions. If an MMO does offer what you are looking for, it will most likely be one that isn't a major mainstream MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
and that is bad how? both reward the player, but in twitch based games that reward is hard earned, instead of being handed to him in a silver plate because a binary number reached a certain memory address where its stored that he is "better" than me.
I respect more the guy with crazy skills that wiped the floor with my ass, than the guy who beats me because the client says his gear is "A" and mine is "B".
And how wouldnt it spice the game? what does a level 80 fear from a lvl60 in your average mmo? absolutly nothing
now make the game twitch based, and the 80 no longer can be overconfident when dealing with the lvl60...making the gameplay more exciting for both.
I like First Person Shooter games. But sometimes I want to play a computer role playing game instead.
Maybe I missed it, but why isn't Darkfall mentioned here? It is the best twitch based combat MMO on the market, love it or hate it people can't deny the truth about the game.
Full Sail University - Game Design
Well out of the rpg's you mentioned I have only played dragonica, stringing serperate skills together is not exactly what i'm trying to describe, it's really hard to give a good example of what i'm getting at when so few games have done it.
Trying to be as clear as I can >.< But I guess to truly see what i'm hinting at i'd suggest getting a rom of Legend of the Dragoon, along with PsX, and give the timing mechanic a try (can get it all @ romhustler).
and that is bad how? both reward the player, but in twitch based games that reward is hard earned, instead of being handed to him in a silver plate because a binary number reached a certain memory address where its stored that he is "better" than me.
I respect more the guy with crazy skills that wiped the floor with my ass, than the guy who beats me because the client says his gear is "A" and mine is "B".
And how wouldnt it spice the game? what does a level 80 fear from a lvl60 in your average mmo? absolutly nothing
now make the game twitch based, and the 80 no longer can be overconfident when dealing with the lvl60...making the gameplay more exciting for both.
I like First Person Shooter games. But sometimes I want to play a computer role playing game instead.
try FallOut 3, Oblivion or ME
omg whats that?!!? twitch based combat in excellent computer role playing games?
heresy!!! grab the pinchforks guys
ring ring,the 21st century calling...
You raise some very valid points, but I believe there would still be a market for it. I for one refuse to pay for the experience as it is, especially when every f2p game out there offers the same basic gameplay as any p2p.
Now if a game were to come out with more inovative and challenging combat features, like previously mentioned, I wouldn't think twice about subscribing and paying monthly for that.
I have to challenge this as the crux of Mardy's argument seems to be : it isn't in wow so ppl don't like it.
as for comparing your op to ac and eq. These are older games and were much more limited by the technology available at the time(especially since mmo's take a few yrs to develope), not only on the players end but also the server tech and the bit in between, your internet connection. This would make it much harder for a good twitch based rpg to be implemented as there really is quite a bit of difference between the physics of a standard fps and an rpg/fps
SO why hasn't the mmo industry caught up with the technology in your combat options especially since fps's are a major market of there own. I think the obvious answer is the correct one. It isn't in wow
Twitch based combat has been as much a mainstay as turn based in rpg almost since they first appeared on home comps. But big name developers seem to be much more interested in making wow but with better picture than in anything else and thus the 'it isn't in wow so ppl don't like it' mentality continues
How many twitch MMO's were there compared to non-twitch MMO's before 2004 (WoW's release year)? Your average gamers are not twitch players, that's why companies don't make things too complicated, hard, and risk their game be deemed tedious. Yes there was AC1, but even during its golden years it was still considered niche compared to other popular titles.
Go around in MMO's and ask how many people still keyboard turn, how many still mouse click their spells/abilities, how many still prefer stand-n-cast and can't fathom casting while running....you'll know why MMO companies don't create too much twitch-like combat. It's about knowing your market, your target audience.
Good news is we've seen companies try to push the envelope. But unfortunately all these "experiments" haven't really worked out well because the games failed in other aspects. Like Vanguard, while you can't dodge arrows & magic bolts, you could cast while moving. That was a step forward, but VG as a game failed due to early release, bad engine, and badly run company. AoC? Pushed the envelop in combat, but they also failed in the content/design department.
MMO's need players to stay and keep paying for monthly subscriptions to stay alive, it's much different than your average RPG PC games where their main focus is to just sell that retail copy. I really don't think developers want to make combat too complex and tedious, to a point that they miss the target audience.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
You want an MMORPG with twitch combat? You have WWII Online, Planetside or the one I play Darkfall. Darkfall does it best in my opinion and is the premier PvP game out there (in my opinion).
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
Having to merely repeatedly click on something on-screen does not a twitch game make, in my humble opinion.
- Shijeer
Well DF's combat isn't actually better than PS's. But if you want something where Time Investment is important which has wars for true control over territory and resources/crafting to boot (or if you just want modern graphics), it'd be the place to go.
PS's actual combat and gameplay is far more PVP-centric though, and a lot more rewarding of skill. In fact PS is one of the most skill-deep games I'm aware of; strategy mattered at each zoom scale: squad, base, continent, and global. And twitch skill mattered on top of that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver