Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
The endgame design
Goronian
Member Posts: 724
Right. I will try to NOT turn it into one of my long-winded rants this time. Keyword is "try".
Ahem... Over the past few years, I've tried nearly every single major P2P release (except for US-only Turbine games, because Turbine hates me) and in each and every one of them, whenever I've joined a guild, I always heard one thing.
"lol you shud lvl fastr so u culd ply wit us 
)))"
During those few years, I've reached max level once. In Guild Wars.You know why? Because to get to the "fun parts" of the game, you have to suffer through a long, winded and mostly solo journey to the cap.
True, it helps, if you have RL friends, who are into the game, to start with you, but what if I don't? What if all my friends just don't play MMOs?
That, my friends, is my problem with modern MMO mentality. It's not even devs fault, really - if you look around, there are tons of stuff to do before endgame. Problem is? Barely anyone does this. Yes, you can bring up WoW with the new cross-server dungeong PUG finder, but it only solves half the issue, since there is no real social interaction and if you do not wish to grind the same few dungeons constantly, you're kinda stuck.
If the endgame is so important, why not give us the option to make insta-cap characters? If the "road" is not played anymore, why not just skip it? Or, better yet, make at least half the game as enjoyable, as the "endgame"?
What are your thoughts on the issue? Are there any solutions to this, other, than a good nearly-constant group? I'm a relative newbie to the genre, but I was told it was kinda different, back in the third gen (I.E. EQ).
Edit: I've just realised, that the topic was probably beaten to death. If you feel, that it brings nothing new to the table, please just delete it.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Comments
I solved that problem for myself by steering clear of level-based class-restricted MMOs unless I already am going there with a pre-existing team. The level-based design was flawed in PnP games and that flaw is made glaringly obvious once applied to MMOs where the level range is significantly wider and the players all start at completely differnt times, progressing at different speeds.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
So your complaining that you cant get to end game cuz of having no friend? Then you shouldnt play MMORPG. I'm former Asheron's call player, I know what you meant anyway. These MMORPG games nowadays isnt good atm. Just worry about yourself, and enjoy the game. I know its nice to play with someone within your level, but life comes first. That means you have no time to play MMORPG to keep up.
Kain_Dale
I solved this problem for myself, at least, by gathering people, who do think like me and forming a guild. I'm more concerned about core design and other people, though - I can't imagine being alone on this subject.
What good skill-based games are there, anyway? EvE is not my cup of tea, Darkfall is a little too PvP-oriented (and with FPS combat, to boot) and I can't even play Asheron's Call. What's left? Ultima?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
What good skill-based games are there, anyway? EvE is not my cup of tea, Darkfall is a little too PvP-oriented (and with FPS combat, to boot) and I can't even play Asheron's Call. What's left? Ultima?
I feel the same way you do about the current skill based games and have been looking for one. Two are in development and look pretty good, but we'll see if all the features come to fruition. Dawntide and Craft of Gods. Would be interested to know about others though that people know about.
Oh yeah, there is Mortal Online also but that looks disastrous so far so no interest there, at least not yet.
What good skill-based games are there, anyway? EvE is not my cup of tea, Darkfall is a little too PvP-oriented (and with FPS combat, to boot) and I can't even play Asheron's Call. What's left? Ultima?
I feel the same way you do about the current skill based games and have been looking for one. Two are in development and look pretty good, but we'll see if all the features come to fruition. Dawntide and Craft of Gods. Would be interested to know about others though that people know about.
Oh yeah, there is Mortal Online also but that looks disastrous so far so no interest there, at least not yet.
The only game I'm really following is Heroes of Telara. Because Jon Van Canaghem (an extremely handsome man) is attached to it, and because it promised me the ability to influence the world with my actions. I don't think it's sandbox, though, to be honest, but the definition was always kinda wonky. What part of an "open-ended world, with each player beingg able to influence it in some meaningful way" is not sandbox?
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
What good skill-based games are there, anyway? EvE is not my cup of tea, Darkfall is a little too PvP-oriented (and with FPS combat, to boot) and I can't even play Asheron's Call. What's left? Ultima?
Actually, those are some of the games I play - Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online. Those and the more arcade-y stuff like Dragonica and the MMOFPS's.
DDO has a narrow window of levels so it's very easy to find people to travel with regularly there.
Have you checked out games like Wurm Online or A Tale in the Desert? SAGA for an RTS? Free Realms for goofy fun (kid-oriented)? Any of the racing game seem to avoid level disparity - GoGoRacer, CTRacer, Upshift Striker, etc.
I'd say start with DDO and talk to sme of the other players there. It may be a game that works well for your play speed and style.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What good skill-based games are there, anyway? EvE is not my cup of tea, Darkfall is a little too PvP-oriented (and with FPS combat, to boot) and I can't even play Asheron's Call. What's left? Ultima?
Actually, those are some of the games I play - Ultima Online, Puzzle Pirates, EVE Online. Those and the more arcade-y stuff like Dragonica and the MMOFPS's.
DDO has a narrow window of levels so it's very easy to find people to travel with regularly there.
Have you checked out games like Wurm Online or A Tale in the Desert? SAGA for an RTS? Free Realms for goofy fun (kid-oriented)? Any of the racing game seem to avoid level disparity - GoGoRacer, CTRacer, Upshift Striker, etc.
I'd say start with DDO and talk to sme of the other players there. It may be a game that works well for your play speed and style.
DDO is a Turbine-operated game and they hat my filthy non-US debit card, so I'll have to pass.
I'm actually trying Puzzle Pirates on the side. It's fun, but I suck at it royally, because all the games have weird variations on "traditional" rules (except for swordfighting) and I can't wrap my head around them sometimes.
I don't play RTSes, so I'll pass on SAGA, was kinda discouraged with Tale (just, I don't know. I really love adventuring, I suppose, not just crafting). I may look into Wurm, though.
Me and my guild, we're moving to Allods Online. They help ME solve this problem, since all of us are starting anew, but I'm currently concerned about the design decision, as a whole.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, you sill need to buy races, classes, zones and the like.
And I will make sure, I do have fun.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I think you're sort of putting the blame on him a bit much there.
Where he's saying "There is definitely something wrong with this endgame design..." you're saying "lol don't play MMORPGs because they are all time consuming monsters, and if you can't handle having your soul devoured by the level and then gear grind, then just don't play them."
I agree that there is too much on "endgame", and in fact levels in general. Levels, I believe, should allow people to diversify, rather than being a pure linear jump in combatitive power.
For example, gaining new, different skills is a good way of showing someone that they've leveled up. Gaining strength in a skill you already have is a bad way of giving a "level up!" bonus.
Diversity and multiple roles that one can play, utility, that's what "levels" should be, not this direct power terrible design most devs seem to be using.
For example, a warrior at level 1 might have a single damaging attack, that strikes one target for weapon damage + 10. As they level up, at level 10, they might have access to that single damaging attack with WD + 10, as well as an attack that does damage to one target plus two nearby targets that was weapon damage to each of them. Assuming weapon damage is never higher than, oh, 15 or so, this would be a reasonably "balanced" way of added utility, without adding direct power to any one ability.
For those of you that aren't strategists - the level 10 would be doing, at maximum, 25 damage to a single target, or 15 damage to up to three targets. Where the level 1 would still be able to do 25 damage (if they somehow got their hands on a really nice weaopn) to a single target. Were you doing raids or something, the level 1 could still participate reasonably well.
A different idea: imagine that in WoW, you could only get to level 10. Once at level 10, you were at end game. Healer type classes usually get their resurrect spells at level 10, hunters can tame their pets, warlocks, I believe, get their voidwalker tank pets...
If the game were made to stop at level 10, I think it could have been very interesting as to what odd things people were capable of - hunters tanking with their pets, a group of five taking on an instance by themselves via multiple pets tanking/mend pet/resurrect pet...
Warlocks tanking, Shamans tanking... practically anything could tank if they "geared up" for it, at level 10.
Just a thought...
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
No you don't.
You CAN, but you really aren't restricted with several races, most classes and access clear to level 20.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No you don't.
You CAN, but you really aren't restricted with several races, most classes and access clear to level 20.
Eh, I might try and dabbl in it more later.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I don't like it =/= flawed.
I don't like it =/= flawed.
While that is most definitely a true statement, you must have seen the leveling system and gone "oh, so there's a stopper at one end, where it bottlenecks players into doing a set of things only available at that end of the game, leaving many new to mid range players off on their relative lonesome" at some point or another.
The cross-server dungeon finder for WoW is just a way of saying "low level players are fairly rare on one server alone, but there's still thousands across all of our servers", and also saying "DO SOME DUNGEONS, THEY'RE FUN! HONEST!"
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
I think you're sort of putting the blame on him a bit much there.
Where he's saying "There is definitely something wrong with this endgame design..." you're saying "lol don't play MMORPGs because they are all time consuming monsters, and if you can't handle having your soul devoured by the level and then gear grind, then just don't play them."
I agree that there is too much on "endgame", and in fact levels in general. Levels, I believe, should allow people to diversify, rather than being a pure linear jump in combatitive power.
For example, gaining new, different skills is a good way of showing someone that they've leveled up. Gaining strength in a skill you already have is a bad way of giving a "level up!" bonus.
Diversity and multiple roles that one can play, utility, that's what "levels" should be, not this direct power terrible design most devs seem to be using.
For example, a warrior at level 1 might have a single damaging attack, that strikes one target for weapon damage + 10. As they level up, at level 10, they might have access to that single damaging attack with WD + 10, as well as an attack that does damage to one target plus two nearby targets that was weapon damage to each of them. Assuming weapon damage is never higher than, oh, 15 or so, this would be a reasonably "balanced" way of added utility, without adding direct power to any one ability.
For those of you that aren't strategists - the level 10 would be doing, at maximum, 25 damage to a single target, or 15 damage to up to three targets. Where the level 1 would still be able to do 25 damage (if they somehow got their hands on a really nice weaopn) to a single target. Were you doing raids or something, the level 1 could still participate reasonably well.
A different idea: imagine that in WoW, you could only get to level 10. Once at level 10, you were at end game. Healer type classes usually get their resurrect spells at level 10, hunters can tame their pets, warlocks, I believe, get their voidwalker tank pets...
If the game were made to stop at level 10, I think it could have been very interesting as to what odd things people were capable of - hunters tanking with their pets, a group of five taking on an instance by themselves via multiple pets tanking/mend pet/resurrect pet...
Warlocks tanking, Shamans tanking... practically anything could tank if they "geared up" for it, at level 10.
Just a thought...
This has been my view on MMOs for a while now.
Basically shortening the progression to end game to avoid the tedious "work" current MMOs give you to make it seem like their game has content. It gets very boring trying to get your toon to the max level by being forced to do random things that don't mean anything in the game. Sure you can say those random quests help unfold the storyline for the game your playing, but in actuality the majority of them do not.
Now another topic that came up was the way MMOs tend to force you to play with your friends and only with your friends as you level up otherwise you will be left behind to catch up on your own. Which is never any fun for the players (like me) that are playing to play with their friends in the first place. Not everyone is on the same time schedule to be able to play with each other at all times.
So with that, I've been realizing something about FPSs. Look at the recent FPSs out there like Modern Warfare 2 or the new Battlefield Bad Company 2 (cant wait) coming out. Or even all the Battlefield games since Battlefiend 2 or the other similar Call of Duties with Ranking systems. All these games give you ranks to rate yourself by, which in MMOs (dont lie to youreself) we use levels to rank ourselves or compare ourselves. But these FPSs are able to successfully give everyone the ability to compete together or with each other of any rank. Why cant these MMO giants find a way to do this? They dont have to be twitch based or FPSs to do it I'm sure. Anyway that's my 2 cents. Throw in some feedback please, this is a good topic.
I think you're sort of putting the blame on him a bit much there.
Where he's saying "There is definitely something wrong with this endgame design..." you're saying "lol don't play MMORPGs because they are all time consuming monsters, and if you can't handle having your soul devoured by the level and then gear grind, then just don't play them."
I agree that there is too much on "endgame", and in fact levels in general. Levels, I believe, should allow people to diversify, rather than being a pure linear jump in combatitive power.
For example, gaining new, different skills is a good way of showing someone that they've leveled up. Gaining strength in a skill you already have is a bad way of giving a "level up!" bonus.
Diversity and multiple roles that one can play, utility, that's what "levels" should be, not this direct power terrible design most devs seem to be using.
For example, a warrior at level 1 might have a single damaging attack, that strikes one target for weapon damage + 10. As they level up, at level 10, they might have access to that single damaging attack with WD + 10, as well as an attack that does damage to one target plus two nearby targets that was weapon damage to each of them. Assuming weapon damage is never higher than, oh, 15 or so, this would be a reasonably "balanced" way of added utility, without adding direct power to any one ability.
For those of you that aren't strategists - the level 10 would be doing, at maximum, 25 damage to a single target, or 15 damage to up to three targets. Where the level 1 would still be able to do 25 damage (if they somehow got their hands on a really nice weaopn) to a single target. Were you doing raids or something, the level 1 could still participate reasonably well.
A different idea: imagine that in WoW, you could only get to level 10. Once at level 10, you were at end game. Healer type classes usually get their resurrect spells at level 10, hunters can tame their pets, warlocks, I believe, get their voidwalker tank pets...
If the game were made to stop at level 10, I think it could have been very interesting as to what odd things people were capable of - hunters tanking with their pets, a group of five taking on an instance by themselves via multiple pets tanking/mend pet/resurrect pet...
Warlocks tanking, Shamans tanking... practically anything could tank if they "geared up" for it, at level 10.
Just a thought...
This has been my view on MMOs for a while now.
Basically shortening the progression to end game to avoid the tedious "work" current MMOs give you to make it seem like their game has content. It gets very boring trying to get your toon to the max level by being forced to do random things that don't mean anything in the game. Sure you can say those random quests help unfold the storyline for the game your playing, but in actuality the majority of them do not.
Now another topic that came up was the way MMOs tend to force you to play with your friends and only with your friends as you level up otherwise you will be left behind to catch up on your own. Which is never any fun for the players (like me) that are playing to play with their friends in the first place. Not everyone is on the same time schedule to be able to play with each other at all times.
So with that, I've been realizing something about FPSs. Look at the recent FPSs out there like Modern Warfare 2 or the new Battlefield Bad Company 2 (cant wait) coming out. Or even all the Battlefield games since Battlefiend 2 or the other similar Call of Duties with Ranking systems. All these games give you ranks to rate yourself by, which in MMOs (dont lie to youreself) we use levels to rank ourselves or compare ourselves. But these FPSs are able to successfully give everyone the ability to compete together or with each other of any rank. Why cant these MMO giants find a way to do this? They dont have to be twitch based or FPSs to do it I'm sure. Anyway that's my 2 cents. Throw in some feedback please, this is a good topic.
It's extremely risky, though. The only way you can realistically pull it is with some really-really groundbreaking design, where the world, community and exploration mattered more, than personal achievments and gear grind (-cough- Heroes of Telara? -cough-). A lot of companies are unsure, if this method will work and try to play it "safe". Which is weird, since of all the attempts to play it safe, only two really succeeded - EQII and LotRO (I was promised MIddle-Earth Online...). You can argue for Aion, but the game is much more focused on PvP, thus setting itself apart, however little.
For me, the hope nowdays is in the indie or less-known devs, not backed by HUGE publishing houses, but not concentrated on PvP. We'll see, what the future has to offer.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
