Sad but true article, most of us dinosaurs (30+ UO/EQ/AC vets) are past our prime and may just have to seek out smaller niche games or just go ahead and play single player games.
To the deluded people playing developers, calling them lazy and the such, well apprently you have never worked in the corporate world for multi-million dollar companies and had a team of bosses calling the shots, developers are not the bosses.
Weak and tendencious article that fails to convince the target audience or add anything to the discussion.
Weak responses to the article sounds a little hypocritical don't you think? I don't know, maybe its just me (BTW all opinions carry some form of bias in one form or another, this isn't FOX News, oh wait...that's more biased than all the other news networks) In regards to the article, I do agree with it to an extent. I wouldn't attribute everything to whats older though and I had this opening blog entry all laid out in regards to a topic that was very familiar. I think a lot of negativity floating around especially in these forums are personal expectations and disappointment of particular games. I think everyone carries an ideal of their perfect game and tries to find something that meshes with it, but game development (at least what portion I have learned) never works perfectly especially when hundreds of people are working on the same project and then you got the voice of the customers that also sway the direction these things are going, which very much agree with these games being designed for the bigger portion of the current population. It's sad to see such pessimism and lack of understanding in regards to the development of a genre as unique as MMO's. I mean look at all the different ways people apply some of the defining words and features of the genre like Massive and Immersion. Apparently to some its important enough to spend time arguing what should be counted as an MMO and what shouldn't (what is this, some kind of cool kids only club?). I guess these are some other things to consider.
Edit: There, I finally started my blog. I just wish I beat Jon to the punch on a similar topic. Oh well, thanks Jon for giving me a reason to quit procrastinating and rush it out
Relatively younger people are characterized by higher levels of egoism. Relatively older people are characterized by more complex thoughts. Read that in a psychology book.
I think there's a lot of truth in that article. I'm 30 turning 31 at the end of this month. I've been hopping from game to game for at least 2 years now. None of those seem to hold my interest for 2 month straight. Right now i'm playing Final Fantasy 1 and i'm having more fun than i've had in months. I don't know what makes that game different. Maybe it's just another new factor in the sense i haven't played it in a long while but right now, i'm actually looking forward to progression instead of just killing time.
I think there's a market for older gamers. Something with more complex gameplay.
-Would you like cheddar or swiss cheese? -Yes. -...
I disagree. Creating open, sanbox worlds is very complex and very costly. Creating newer next-gen games is also complex and costly. The two combined can be staggeringly prohibitive when a studio is looking to make a quick profit so the game can be published. The other avenue is a small-zone, content-packed game following the successful WoW formula. The decision is one most studios would pick: develop the lower-cost solution, make quick bank, and enhance if successful; scrap if not (losses minimized). Wash, rinse, repeat (ala Cryptic).
Another thing you fail to recognize is that those of us in our 30's, 40's and up tend to have more disposable income than those in their late teens and 20's. Even if I believed the argument that the industry is targeting the youngsters because there more of them than us (which I don't), I don't think you can argue there is more money in that demographic. Those of us who have been around for a while know what an MMO can be, what an MMO SHOULD be, and we're here waiting with our disposal income for one to meet our expectations...
I disagree. Creating open, sanbox worlds is very complex and very costly. Creating newer next-gen games is also complex and costly. The two combined can be staggeringly prohibitive when a studio is looking to make a quick profit so the game can be published. The other avenue is a small-zone, content-packed game following the successful WoW formula. The decision is one most studios would pick: develop the lower-cost solution, make quick bank, and enhance if successful; scrap if not (losses minimized). Wash, rinse, repeat (ala Cryptic).
Another thing you fail to recognize is that those of us in our 30's, 40's and up tend to have more disposable income than those in their late teens and 20's. Even if I believed the argument that the industry is targeting the youngsters because there more of them than us (which I don't), I don't think you can argue there is more money in that demographic. Those of us who have been around for a while know what an MMO can be, what an MMO SHOULD be, and we're here waiting with our disposal income for one to meet our expectations...
It's funny you mention Cryptic as the guys who are making quick bank and if not successful leaving the IP to die out. They actually are trying despite all odds to appeal to everybody to make their bank.
Not so the case with NCSoft who seem to drop an IP like a hot potato should it not meet or exceed WoW numbers...Any MMO companies out there reading this next statement I say should take it to heart
"YOU ARE NOT BLIZZARD! YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ETERNAL IP LIKE BLIZZARD OR TURBINE (DDO:U , LOTRO)! YOU DO NOT HAVE TABLE TOP TURNED REAL TIME GAME (WAR)!" I think these gaming companies are failing miserably at making new MMOs because they just don't go out on limbs to find Visionaries who launched EQ or WoW or DDO or LotRo
They don't even have captivating stories like EQ, WoW, and the now long dead TR
They don't TRY to give us additional content or FIX what the heck is the PROBLEM with the game, instead they sell us a box of stale crackers and charge us for Refills until we're SO sick of the stuff that we cannot accept Stale Crackers anymore instead we want their crackers to have THAT particular Flavor whether it be Fantasy, SciFi, or some other Genre or mix in between.
P2P Games just focus too much on their bottom line and if it dips below a certain amount they throw the game in free mode and tell us to Get out a couple weeks later when they shut the game world down permanently leaving alot of us Die hard fans of the IP Homeless and Gameless (See Tabula Rasa).
F2P Games seem to go one way or another these days either it's Grind your brains out til you puke Asian gold farmer style or a graphically intense game that is Pay2Win.
I think it's about HIGH time we started letting the money talk for us again and tell these game companies what's expected of them to have a paycheck paid via us.
You don't go and REINVENT the Toaster and have it exactly the same as the first one except it's just shinier NO!
You make it do other things while borrowing what the FIRST toaster got RIGHT, So if you Developers of Any New MMOs SEE another game doing THIS Right or THAT right What do you think YOU should do? Something entirely different or something similar? I wonder which will earn you more bank in the long term?
Originally posted by Shiymmas I just can't help but disagree with most of this.
People buy and play what's available. Short of being an actual part of the business, none of us have control other than to buy and play what we like, but that only goes so far when so little is available that fits that category. For little Johnny, however, there's a plethora of games out there, all of which are "amazing" when you've never had better, so Johnny will continue to buy the crap that's given without knowing better. At the end of the day, the companies still profit, and whether or not we continue to pay, they'll still prosper.
Of the posts I read I tend to agree with this the most.
I find it difficult to believe that the human race has changed so much in ten short years. Demographics be damned, people are people. Fun is fun.
The only reason us old geezers are doing most of the complaining is because the younger gamers don't know that they should be complaining. They don't know what they missed. It's not their fault. They aren't mutants they just don't know any better.
After reading some of these responses, I feel bad for you old farts. I'm surprised (well, not really) that you tell me that I'm only having fun in a dumbed-down themepark like LotRO instead of a massive, open world because I don't know any better. I'm glad that I wasn't around for the "glory days" so that my opinions aren't tainted by nostalgia. I'm glad that I can enjoy both sandboxes (EVE) and themeparks (LotRO) because I don't spend my time blaming developers for creating shallow, stupid games that I have no interest in, in order to "save the genre" or whatever other righteous cause you think you have.
After reading some of these responses, I just had to let it out. I like where the MMO genre is today. I like that we're getting quality themeparks (TOR) and, hopefully, quality sandboxes (Earthrise). Plus new types of MMOs that I'm sure you'll still shoot down because they're not like the games you remember (APB, Global Agenda, etc). But, hey, you guys have a right to complain, like I said earlier in this thread. Perhaps it's time to move on, aye?
Eh, I think the article greatly exaggerates this phenomenon. I have encountered people who were like "we had to camp mobs for 3 days straight in Everquest AND WE LIKED IT!!!!", but those people are the minority. Overall I think this "old people" thing regarding a genre that's barely over a decade old is overblown. The generational gap is something you'd expect to see over bigger time spans, not something so short. All we are seeing here is that there are a small number of people that were very fond of a particular thing and are upset there isn't a lot more essentially just like it. That happens, but it isn't something huge.
Look at a lot of what the community has called crap recently. Those games ARE crap. They are hastily put together with all the problems rushing brings (they're linear, they shallow, etc). There's no surprise that those games don't do nearly as well as games like LotRO, FFXI, and WoW in the market (yes, even the "kids" don't like the bad titles). People generally don't complain about micro-transactions alone, but when they provide in-game benefits or are for content that should already be in the game in a P2P game, then people complain.
Games where the proper time was taken are being made though. FFXIV and SW: TOR are being made by companies that value quality AND have taken a long time to produce those titles. TOR is going to be having beta testing for OVER A YEAR (FFXIV for many months). I expect these games will be good even if they aren't quite for me (though I expect I'll probably like TOR). I expect there will be other good games that come out. I also expect there will be many crappy games that come out.
This shouldn't surprise anyone. In the regular game market there are so many bad titles we don't even keep track of them all. You should expect something similar with MMOs; it is certainly what we are getting. Because there are fewer MMO titles made, it means that the market is a bit more prone to noticeable streaks of bad, and that's been the only problem we've had in the last few years....just some bad luck.
"Remember to follow our Rules of Conduct"... Awe shucks, cause I had some down right nasty thangs to say about the state of the gaming industry today... Ol' fashioned like. If you catch my drift.
It's been years since I've played a game I truly enjoyed, I feel like Ned Beatty in "Deliverance". Really.
I think alot of today's MMO's have a lot of potential, but they just seem lack some basic understanding of human instincts. And that might have alot to do with the age of the people who are developing them. It seems they are only feeding the extreme emotions.
It's seems as though everything is about chaos, there no real balancing act between good and evil. Sure they say it's about good and evil but it doesn't play out that way.
There's alot of very simple things they could do to or add to modern MMO's that could be more appealing to older gamers, but it's like they're on this bad trip about sticking only with what works, and not giving players what they really want. Almost as if they are using anxiety to sell games. And by that I mean that they get people to buy games hoping that the game is good when it's basicly the same ol', same ol'. They're not really experimenting, the only things that really seem to be getting better are graphics and developers tools.
Now this kinda ticks me off because they got me on this horse making me believe that mature games was going to be their throughline through all of the future of gaming. And then all of a sudden that just drops out from under us all, and we're sitting here sitting on our hands to keep the jitters away because we can't find a reasonably good game that older gamers like to play. It's not that hard to figure out.
So there's really only a couple of things I as and aging gamer can really do, 1. Is i don't buy games like I used to (But I would if there were some that clicked). 2. I express my feelings like I am now and hope and pray. and 3. I try to conceptionalize idea's and make them public, and again hope and pray someone with enough sense catches wind of them and uses them.
At the moment there's only one game that I can play on my system that I am looking forward too. ONE!... Out of all these games, just one! And my favorite game of all time is getting ready to disappear from existence.
I'm not gonna beg and plead with developers anymore, and eventually i'm gonna stop conceptionalizing and sharing, and stop buying my grandchildren video games. I'm gonna stop talking to people about videogames, and eventually games won't even matter for me anymore.
You know the sad part about that is, they're just gonna say "Don't let the door hit yer butt on the way out". It's like nobody gives a rats patooie about anyone. Dog eat dog.... All I can do is shake my head... Yeah, oh yeah I can see 2012 being our date of demise...very easily.
Several years back I started writing a novel similar to that. I think it would have made an awesome game. It didn't have fishing and all that, but everything else is very similar. Almost scary similar.
Originally posted by brenth
heres a game idea for you: it partly refers to SEED: seed was a great idea but TERRIBLE implementation. it died shortly after its premature birth.
your planet is being destroyed either (fantacy or other) and you have to exit your world the basic method is a teleporter but the trick is your limited in the equipment you can bring and have to pick and choose (this is done so one player arrives with an ax and another arrives with a shovel)... the alternate mode is a ship that crash lands a teraformer or an ark and you wake up and prety much dont know any thing about where you are or about anything.
the basic premice is to learn and discover and explore and overcome chalanges if you do the ship route you usually start by trying to fix and clean up and salvage what you can cnd then slowly move out into the strange new world the key is the unknown is huge in this example you dont even know if the air is breathable what is safe and what will kill you I would also have a wide range of creatures (plant animal and other) some maby be easy to kill and others may take a whole squad or more. the key is you start by knowing nothing not even if there are other inteligent life or even other colonies and will they be friendly or hostile there would be growing crops,, fishing,, boats, ranching even astronomy depending on the theme there could be magic to learn alchemy definatly mining and smithing i would also have weather climates storms disease pestilance that would effect the world id have arctic areas deserts jungles yes this would be skill based and sandboxed.
if anyone is aware of a game like this (that isnt 20 years out of date) please let me know.
I'd really like the opportunity to discuss your point with you Jon. You see, I think if your premise was correct then the new games catering to the new audience would be remarkably successful. I don't see that, however. Many of the "new" games have struggled incredibly.
What I see are games with less polish, less content, less depth, less immersion, fewer ingame options, less development time, more fees, and more "innovative revenue generating strategies" (i.e. behaviour modification strategies that prime people to spend more on virtual goods). Are customers really clamouring for this, even the next generation of gamers?
I think you make a very logical point that game companies have always been interested in revenue. I agree; that's what business does. However, what you may be missing (probably because you don't think like this yourself, which is a good thing), is that there are at least two vastly different business philosophies that both have the same end in mind--fiscal growth.
One philosophy says the customer is always right. Money is earned "the hard way" via excellence in product, service, marketting and support. I think WoW and EvE are two games that have historically been driven by this philosophy. How they continue to respond to the lure of the other philosophy is something only time can tell.
The other philosophy is this: a fool and his money are soon parted. Some companies base their revenue on this cornerstone. They see customers as dupes, and making money as a shell game. There is less interest in providing a good service, and more interest in marketting psychology, or how to get people to hand over their cash, preferably for very little (or even nothing) in return.
I'm a social science professor, head of my department actually. I see all kinds of behaviour modifications strategies built into games based on the latter philosophy. The games are not viewed as an entertainment service, and gamers are not viewed as valued customers. The game's are merely a revenue generating vehicle. The less development and support, and the more psychological manipulation, the better.
Tbh, I'm starting to think that most of the people motivated by the first strategy now have jobs with Blizzard or CCP. That leaves others to congregate in other MMO houses. churning out sub-par games as quickly as possible, with as many cash grabbing strategies as they can cram into them.
So, I agree that "it" has changed. I think, however, that "it" is the philosophy that development houses base their revenue generating strategies upon. Actually I saw a Dilbert comic that illustrated this nicely. A CEO of a failing company said something like this: "Well we can't compete in quality, service or price, which leaves us with fraud--get me the marketting department." That may be a bit overstated, but I think it highlights an important concept.
I agree that "it" has changed, but I don't agree that it's changed into something weird and scary. Rather it's changed into something simplistic and repetitive. What I don't understand about developers and publishers is why no one will try making a throwback virtual world and charging a premium fee for it. Yes a lot of sandbox fans are older and may not be the target demographic, but I submit that the target demographic doesn't always have to be the young. Thirtysomethings are in the prime of their professional lives and generally have much more disposable income than your average teen. Why not make UO2 and charge $49.99 a month. I'd pay it, and I doubt I'm alone.
Id pay for an updated eq/uo style game that offered a "real" world and challenge. I spend roughly 5k a year on games/computer equipment to support my hobby and thats a bargain compaired to other hobby's. So 50 bucks a month or even up to 100 would be no sweat for me. Theres a market out there and they have more money than your avg "i want it now" generation.
I'd really like the opportunity to discuss your point with you Jon. You see, I think if your premise was correct then the new games catering to the new audience would be remarkably successful. I don't see that, however. Many of the "new" games have struggled incredibly. What I see are games with less polish, less content, less depth, less immersion, fewer ingame options, less development time, more fees, and more "innovative revenue generating strategies" (i.e. behaviour modification strategies that prime people to spend more on virtual goods). Are customers really clamouring for this, even the next generation of gamers? I think you make a very logical point that game companies have always been interested in revenue. I agree; that's what business does. However, what you may be missing (probably because you don't think like this yourself, which is a good thing), is that there are at least two vastly different business philosophies that both have the same end in mind--fiscal growth. One philosophy says the customer is always right. Money is earned "the hard way" via excellence in product, service, marketting and support. I think WoW and EvE are two games that have historically been driven by this philosophy. How they continue to respond to the lure of the other philosophy is something only time can tell. The other philosophy is this: a fool and his money are soon parted. Some companies base their revenue on this cornerstone. They see customers as dupes, and making money as a shell game. There is less interest in providing a good service, and more interest in marketting psychology, or how to get people to hand over their cash, preferably for very little (or even nothing) in return. I'm a social science professor, head of my department actually. I see all kinds of behaviour modifications strategies built into games based on the latter philosophy. The games are not viewed as an entertainment service, and gamers are not viewed as valued customers. The game's are merely a revenue generating vehicle. The less development and support, and the more psychological manipulation, the better. Tbh, I'm starting to think that most of the people motivated by the first strategy now have jobs with Blizzard or CCP. That leaves others to congregate in other MMO houses. churning out sub-par games as quickly as possible, with as many cash grabbing strategies as they can cram into them. So, I agree that "it" has changed. I think, however, that "it" is the philosophy that development houses base their revenue generating strategies upon. Actually I saw a Dilbert comic that illustrated this nicely. A CEO of a failing company said something like this: "Well we can't compete in quality, service or price, which leaves us with fraud--get me the marketting department." That may be a bit overstated, but I think it highlights an important concept.
Just to clarify something folks. I didn't say that all of the ills of the MMO industry come down to this one, single thing. It's a contributing factor, but of course bad games are going to fail. A bad game is a bad game, a game without polish lacks polish. That's why i didn't make any specific reference to any game in particular. It's because this is an underlying issue. The article refers to people who are just generally dissatisfied with the core designs of today's MMOs. Issues like polish and implementation are topics for another day's column.
Personally, I don't share your pessimism about business philosophy. doing the whole "pull the wool over your eyes" thing works when you're talking about businesses that rely on single purchases for their primary source of revenue. The appeal of going to all of the trouble to make an MMO, however, is the idea that there might be a continued revenue stream. I would suggest that an MMO company looking to maximize its revenue would look at ways to entice people to stay over the long term, not to fool them into buying the box. The box is just the beginning, the real money's in the subs.
Won't be long since I hit 40... yet below some thought:
- I play MMOs and laugth/cry at this supposedly heroic feeling and based storyline - I remember how fun it was to have something else to do than just killing mobs in SWG - I miss all players that never ever lifted a weapon in SWG. They are long gone away from MMO madness. - I look at MMO and see how ugly they are compared to any single player game, yes AOC and LotRo alike - I wish Freespace, Privateer 2, and SWG economy systems would someday merge into a MMO - I'm still looking for MMOs that lets you rebind every key, mouse button, functionalities to your liking - I'm sad when I see rushed out poorly designed MMO UI, makes me remember Privateer 2 awesome one
Yet I had fun playing Diablo 2.9 (read WoW) but it isn't THE mmo I'm looking for. Funny thing my wallet might be heavyer than more younger audience... like in SWG many of us had multiple accounts. In a way too many MMO have become Diablo on steroids, and while I like Diablo & Dungeon siege gameplay, they aren't MMORPG
And well: I remember how fun was Pong on a black and white TV.
Some of my best friends and most interesting people I knew never lifted a weapon in SWG. It gave me time to wind down after a large PvP battle or after hunting down Jedi with my Bounty Hunter.
So glad you mentioned Freespace. I was a huge fan of Freespace and Freespace 2. Spent a lot of time fighting in Squad Wars with that game. I would surely play an MMO with a Freespace theme.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
Eh, I think the article greatly exaggerates this phenomenon. I have encountered people who were like "we had to camp mobs for 3 days straight in Everquest AND WE LIKED IT!!!!", but those people are the minority. Overall I think this "old people" thing regarding a genre that's barely over a decade old is overblown. The generational gap is something you'd expect to see over bigger time spans, not something so short. All we are seeing here is that there are a small number of people that were very fond of a particular thing and are upset there isn't a lot more essentially just like it. That happens, but it isn't something huge.
Oh?
compare new music today to new music that hit 10 years ago. Do the same with movies and books.
Keep going back in 10 year spans. So compare 1989 to 1999 and then 1979 to 1989., etc.
I think 10 years is more than enough time to see vast differences in how things have been made and what was considered popular and desirable.
as an example:
1969:
Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid
Midnight Cowboy
Italian Job
Wild Bunch
1959:
Some like it hot
Ben Hur
North by Northwest
Pillow talk
movies in 1969 are far grittier than 1959 and directors and writers aside one can feel the difference quite palpably as you will easily feel the zeitgeist of the time.
1949?
On the town
Sands of Iwo Jima
Tokyo Joe
The third man
The differences are palpable.
Music?
1959 bobby darin, paul anka, and frankie avalon as compared to 69 with Temptations, rolling stones, sly and the family stone and Elvis.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I am getting near 40, and there is one thing i haven't seen mentioned that really makes me feel my age. Seems every game put out these days has their end game geared toward pvp. Maybe it's just cheaper to do that than put in a ton of pve content for people to go through. A large part of pvp in games these days seems to depend more on reaction time and keyboard skill rather than strategy. Things like circle strafing , staying out of line of site or keeping you target in line of site. When i watch my nieces and nephews play , they are very good at these things. They never have to look the their keyboard and rarely use their mouse. They have been taught how a use a keyboard since elementary school. When i was in elementary school a computer was called a calculator and in high school they still used typewriters. I just never learned how to effectively use a keyboard, so i lose precious seconds glancing down at the keyboard. This makes my reaction time slower (which is already getting slower with age). I still do ok in some games at pvp , but i'll never really excel at it. If you don't feel you can excel in the end game , your probably not going to stick with the game long. This is a big reason why i lean toward pve games with lots of content.
Ok putting the pvp thing , and my lack of dexterity aside. The thing that has changed the most for me (and what i miss the most) in MMO's are the communities. This being influenced by both how games are developed and of course by the people playing them.
The new MMO's that have been coming out don't promote strong communities at all. They are all quest based , which makes grouping much harder. Also games these days are all button mashing games. This makes it very hard to type and hold a conversion with people. Peoples solution for this was vent / teamspeak but it has so many draw backs. People wont use it for a variety of reasons , causes lag , don't have a mic, or my reason i like to listen to music when i play. So you are leaving people out of conversations. You constantly have people talking over one another and people who don't join the conversation because they can't seem to get a word in. You'll lose conversations when for any reason you have to leave your PC. All of this fixed if people could just type in chat instead. I know 99% will disagree but "for me" vent was one of the worst things to happen to gaming.
I started EQ in 1999 when MMO's were still a very new concept. Just a guess but there were probably around 2000 people on the server i played and I'd bet , in the 3 years i played, I had conversed with over 75% of them. That's pretty much unheard of in games today. People rarely socialize outside of their guild. EQ as a game made it really easy to be social though. There wasn't many buttons to hit and a lot of time was spent medding or waiting to melee a mob down. So you had plenty of time to converse with people.
I often hear of people talking about how slow and difficult EQ was in the beginning. Yes xp was slower and death penalties were a bit more but that's not what slowed me down the most. It went slower because you couldn't go through a zone without seeing someone you knew. You'd then sit and talk or perhaps help them with something. There was never the huge rush that everyone is in today. The only rush was the one you were in to get home from work. Not because you wanted that next level or because you wanted that nice new shiny item. It was because there was a very large community of people you missed and you wanted to get back to them. This is a feeling i have never been able to recapture.
I left EQ after 3yrs because i thought the game had lost something. I tried many different games trying to find it again. It took a long time but i finally realized the game never changed. The people playing it was what changed. Gone were the friendly and helpful people who were in awe of a new game concept. Now you had hackers, exploiters, and scammers stealing from you. People were getting greedy and conceited. You weren't allowed in groups cause you didn't have high end gear , or because you didn't play your character or spec how they wanted you to.
I don't put myself above this criticism. I changed also and am guilty of a couple of these things. I do my best now to watch out and realize if I'm doing these things.
I kinda feel sorry for the new players of today that never got to experience how it was when online gaming was new, but i guess the upside to that is they also don't miss it.
I've seen so much talk about the games and how poorly they are made. I can only think of 1 game i ever left because i just hated the gameplay. That was LotRO because i found the combat really boring/bland. Recently i have been leaving games because i can count the number of people who have talked to me on one hand, for the entire free month i played. Yes gameplay is important but i could probably play almost anything if i just found a friendly community to play with. Even a pvp game.
Sorry this was so long, thanks to the people who take the time to read through it. 8)
Since most of my gaming years was in Taiwan, I couldn't shed light on the changing expreince in US or EU.
But as one of the first people playing computer games on this small island(windows 3.0 OS playing red alert, and one of the first Taiwaneese guys on the Diablo US battle.net server)
We went to a far more worse results than you eastern folks.
When PC games rocketed in the 90's, tons of great singel player RPG games flourished with great stories that seemed to last forever in our teen minds. But then there came the internet boom that push pirating sky high, and game companies couldn't make profit.
The end result is there are no delicate and meaningful games anymore, the market is dominated by F2P games in Asia(Taiwan, China, Korea). Nowadays, it's just more about comparing gear and outfits than actual game experience. The majority of MMO players care more about how fast they can reach cap and buy or get the huge sword that glows light and dragon mount, than really diving into a good fantasy world experience.
Sigh...
Being a game developer myself, I'm already wondering everyday "who plays these kind of games that is utterly no fun at all", and the said reality is we have to make them because the majority consumers want them this way.
Each person can only hold enough knowledge to add one small rung to the ladder, but together we can climb to the moon.
I said it in a lot more detail, with suggestions on what I would like, over in this thread, But I copied the non suggestion parts to here:
No MMO is completely linear (themepark) and it would be impossible to create an all themepark MMO. You simply cannot make content faster than people progress through it. The difference between "themepark" and "sandbox" is really a very fine line. In sandbox games from day one you have to choose what you want to do be it raids, pvp, crafting or whatever. People who are self-motivated (or part of groups who are) will have the most fun in open-non linear environments because they will find ways to have fun on their own and don't rely on the game to lead them to fun things.
In themepark games you have a linear part of the game (leveling, doing the story arc or whatever) during which the game leads you to things to do and occupy your time with and (hopefully) have fun doing these things. But once you have completed all the linear parts of the game you have to choose what you want to do and find ways on your own to spend your time in ways that are fun for you which is the same as what occurs in sandbox MMOs. In either case if you are cannot, or are unwilling to, find things that make the non-linear parts of the game fun then you're probably not going to enjoy your play time.
As I see it the real problem with recent "themepark" games is that their linear content is fairly limited and they failed to add enough good non linear content for people to do once the linear content has been completed. While the recent "sandbox" games suffer from having no direction for people who aren't highly self motivated to get into the game and meet people who are self motivated and can help the previous to find things to do and have fun.
Looking to the future I think the next big MMO will be a blend both styles and not try to cater too much to one or the other.
I agree that "it" has changed, but I don't agree that it's changed into something weird and scary. Rather it's changed into something simplistic and repetitive. What I don't understand about developers and publishers is why no one will try making a throwback virtual world and charging a premium fee for it. Yes a lot of sandbox fans are older and may not be the target demographic, but I submit that the target demographic doesn't always have to be the young. Thirtysomethings are in the prime of their professional lives and generally have much more disposable income than your average teen. Why not make UO2 and charge $49.99 a month. I'd pay it, and I doubt I'm alone.
This, exactly. $50 a month for a fee is nothing to me if a company can deliver an experience I enjoy. I drop that on lunch for my wife and I. There are more of "them" perhaps, but "we" have more disposable income.
The key is finding a way to pry it from our aging hands...
I'm waiting for a "premium" sandbox style game to come along eventually, with an extreme focus on customer service, perhaps a fee of something like $49.95 a month, no "item shop" or "ala carte" fees, catering to a more mature audience. I'm sure some indie developer will figure it out eventually if the larger developers don't.
The cell phone companies certainly did, which is why I pay $230 a month for an "unlimited" plan now as opposed to the old nickel-and-dime fees of the past. Unlimited text, voice, and data. Do I always get my "money's worth" from such a plan? No, but it's nice to not have to worry about additional fees. The phone bill is the same; every month. No matter how much I use it.
Won't be long since I hit 40... yet below some thought:
- I play MMOs and laugth/cry at this supposedly heroic feeling and based storyline - I remember how fun it was to have something else to do than just killing mobs in SWG - I miss all players that never ever lifted a weapon in SWG. They are long gone away from MMO madness. - I look at MMO and see how ugly they are compared to any single player game, yes AOC and LotRo alike - I wish Freespace, Privateer 2, and SWG economy systems would someday merge into a MMO - I'm still looking for MMOs that lets you rebind every key, mouse button, functionalities to your liking - I'm sad when I see rushed out poorly designed MMO UI, makes me remember Privateer 2 awesome one
Yet I had fun playing Diablo 2.9 (read WoW) but it isn't THE mmo I'm looking for. Funny thing my wallet might be heavyer than more younger audience... like in SWG many of us had multiple accounts. In a way too many MMO have become Diablo on steroids, and while I like Diablo & Dungeon siege gameplay, they aren't MMORPG
And well: I remember how fun was Pong on a black and white TV.
Some of my best friends and most interesting people I knew never lifted a weapon in SWG. It gave me time to wind down after a large PvP battle or after hunting down Jedi with my Bounty Hunter.
So glad you mentioned Freespace. I was a huge fan of Freespace and Freespace 2. Spent a lot of time fighting in Squad Wars with that game. I would surely play an MMO with a Freespace theme.
Many of mine also and a few really stand out for me.
! guild member had been in a bad accident in his youth resulting in amputation of 1 arm and very little functionality in the other but SWG became a graphical chat system for him he thoroughly enjoyed being a entertainer and would often put on comedy performances he was a great SWG stand up comedian.
There where many like the above who lived for the pure crafter or the entertaining side of things.
Contrary to some of the comments throughout the thread SWG did indeed sell 1 million copies, SWG did around February 04 have 450k active subscriptions these had bled down to 300k-350k by 2005 and then took a large dip with the first disaster of 05 the CU this was further compounded in November that year with the NGE.
Pre CU sure it was bleeding subs every MMO does but there where a number of factors played a large role in SWG bleeding out in its infancy.
SWG was a very popular game with the military MMO players in 03 the second gulf war began then with a vast increase in troops in 04 I still believe to this day that this accounted for the loss of thousands of subs as our troops headed of for 6-12 month tours.
Despite WOW's release in 04 SWG was still very healthy and that 300k-350k mark was very respectable for its time then the CU hit and it took a nosedive I don't have figures but 25% of my friends list dissapeared overnight.
Then November that year arrived and "it was like a million subscribers all cried out and then where suddenly cancelled" well OK perhaps not 1 million but again basing on friends list within that first month around 50% of the active base at that time.
SO SWG 1 million sales, 03 -early 04 450k subs steadily decreased to the point of WOW and EQ2 release to around 325K, CU 05 - 250k, NGE - bordering on 100K.
So to the point of the changes made to the core game SWG had a very healthy retention rate of 30%+ based on 1 million sales any MMO in the world would snap your hand of for that kind of retention rate 18 month post launch but it obviously wasn't enough for SOE.
The playerbase didn't change the genre didn't bring something these players suddenly wanted the game was stripped from under them which forced the number crashes.
Anywhoo not to turn this into a Pre-CU SWG thing I do still believe a market is there for the type of game SWG was or UO was but it is going to take a studio with a AAA budget to truly convert the masses as much as DF, MO etc are trying to pave the way again they just don't have the production values and polish that a AAA can offer.
I don't have an issue with companies trying to make a profit. I don't really contest that previous companies, many of which are no longer in existence, were doing the same thing. I do take an issue with the companies that pump out as much crap as they possibly can, sitting behind the safety that no one can actually return their purchase once they found out how crappy it really is, and/or who milke a franchise to death for a short-term cash grab.
Activision pumped out 25, 25 GH titles last year. The industry managed to get consumers burned out on music games pretty quick and that benefits who exactly? Pumping out sub-par medicore MMO each year with no chance in longevity and the very high likely hood of yanking servers when everyone burns through the content benefits who exactly?
Sure, the publishing companies at first but when consumers fork over their hard earned cash and they can pay off their debt and line the pockets of their investors, but what about the next group that puts out a quality game and the market shies away from it, what about the next time someone creates an MMO with long-term prospects and the gut reaction of the consumers is I am not going to pay 15 dollars a month for a game that intends to fold in 2 years and micro-tran me to death right up until the end?
There are a lot of publishers who really don't care about the long-term health of the industry at all, and it really shows.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Is it just me, or does this apply to more than just MMO's lately, too? By that, I mean the other genres - shooters, RPG, RTS, etc.. I can't for the life of me even find single-player experiences that are worthwhile anymore, and it isn't because I'm burned out on it all because I can still find fun in my old favorites.
I get that things change, but really... did the whole world go stupid or something to need the style of play that's offered in the more recent games these days? It seems that even in the strategy genre everything is automatic and spoon-fed to the point of needing minimal micro-managing and actual strategy anymore. RPGs are just a matter of being hand-held through a story (interactive movies ftw?) and shooters have de-evolved through time worst of all. I can't help but wonder am I the only one who feels that way.
No, it is not just you, this is pretty much it. I really agree with the OP and this is also why we won't ever see a game like Deus Ex (which is in my opinion still the best game ever made) or System Shock.
I'm sorry, but if letting the world devolve into simplistic stupidity is "where things are just going" forgive me if I continue to rage against clouds.
Comments
Weak and tendencious article that fails to convince the target audience or add anything to the discussion.
Sad but true article, most of us dinosaurs (30+ UO/EQ/AC vets) are past our prime and may just have to seek out smaller niche games or just go ahead and play single player games.
To the deluded people playing developers, calling them lazy and the such, well apprently you have never worked in the corporate world for multi-million dollar companies and had a team of bosses calling the shots, developers are not the bosses.
Weak responses to the article sounds a little hypocritical don't you think? I don't know, maybe its just me
In regards to the article, I do agree with it to an extent. I wouldn't attribute everything to whats older though and I had this opening blog entry all laid out in regards to a topic that was very familiar. I think a lot of negativity floating around especially in these forums are personal expectations and disappointment of particular games. I think everyone carries an ideal of their perfect game and tries to find something that meshes with it, but game development (at least what portion I have learned) never works perfectly especially when hundreds of people are working on the same project and then you got the voice of the customers that also sway the direction these things are going, which very much agree with these games being designed for the bigger portion of the current population. It's sad to see such pessimism and lack of understanding in regards to the development of a genre as unique as MMO's.
I mean look at all the different ways people apply some of the defining words and features of the genre like Massive and Immersion. Apparently to some its important enough to spend time arguing what should be counted as an MMO and what shouldn't (what is this, some kind of cool kids only club?). I guess these are some other things to consider.
Edit: There, I finally started my blog. I just wish I beat Jon to the punch on a similar topic. Oh well, thanks Jon for giving me a reason to quit procrastinating and rush it out
Relatively younger people are characterized by higher levels of egoism. Relatively older people are characterized by more complex thoughts. Read that in a psychology book.
I think there's a lot of truth in that article. I'm 30 turning 31 at the end of this month. I've been hopping from game to game for at least 2 years now. None of those seem to hold my interest for 2 month straight. Right now i'm playing Final Fantasy 1 and i'm having more fun than i've had in months. I don't know what makes that game different. Maybe it's just another new factor in the sense i haven't played it in a long while but right now, i'm actually looking forward to progression instead of just killing time.
I think there's a market for older gamers. Something with more complex gameplay.
-Would you like cheddar or swiss cheese?
-Yes.
-...
I disagree. Creating open, sanbox worlds is very complex and very costly. Creating newer next-gen games is also complex and costly. The two combined can be staggeringly prohibitive when a studio is looking to make a quick profit so the game can be published. The other avenue is a small-zone, content-packed game following the successful WoW formula. The decision is one most studios would pick: develop the lower-cost solution, make quick bank, and enhance if successful; scrap if not (losses minimized). Wash, rinse, repeat (ala Cryptic).
Another thing you fail to recognize is that those of us in our 30's, 40's and up tend to have more disposable income than those in their late teens and 20's. Even if I believed the argument that the industry is targeting the youngsters because there more of them than us (which I don't), I don't think you can argue there is more money in that demographic. Those of us who have been around for a while know what an MMO can be, what an MMO SHOULD be, and we're here waiting with our disposal income for one to meet our expectations...
It's funny you mention Cryptic as the guys who are making quick bank and if not successful leaving the IP to die out. They actually are trying despite all odds to appeal to everybody to make their bank.
Not so the case with NCSoft who seem to drop an IP like a hot potato should it not meet or exceed WoW numbers...Any MMO companies out there reading this next statement I say should take it to heart
"YOU ARE NOT BLIZZARD! YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ETERNAL IP LIKE BLIZZARD OR TURBINE (DDO:U , LOTRO)! YOU DO NOT HAVE TABLE TOP TURNED REAL TIME GAME (WAR)!" I think these gaming companies are failing miserably at making new MMOs because they just don't go out on limbs to find Visionaries who launched EQ or WoW or DDO or LotRo
They don't even have captivating stories like EQ, WoW, and the now long dead TR
They don't TRY to give us additional content or FIX what the heck is the PROBLEM with the game, instead they sell us a box of stale crackers and charge us for Refills until we're SO sick of the stuff that we cannot accept Stale Crackers anymore instead we want their crackers to have THAT particular Flavor whether it be Fantasy, SciFi, or some other Genre or mix in between.
P2P Games just focus too much on their bottom line and if it dips below a certain amount they throw the game in free mode and tell us to Get out a couple weeks later when they shut the game world down permanently leaving alot of us Die hard fans of the IP Homeless and Gameless (See Tabula Rasa).
F2P Games seem to go one way or another these days either it's Grind your brains out til you puke Asian gold farmer style or a graphically intense game that is Pay2Win.
I think it's about HIGH time we started letting the money talk for us again and tell these game companies what's expected of them to have a paycheck paid via us.
You don't go and REINVENT the Toaster and have it exactly the same as the first one except it's just shinier NO!
You make it do other things while borrowing what the FIRST toaster got RIGHT, So if you Developers of Any New MMOs SEE another game doing THIS Right or THAT right What do you think YOU should do? Something entirely different or something similar? I wonder which will earn you more bank in the long term?
Of the posts I read I tend to agree with this the most.
I find it difficult to believe that the human race has changed so much in ten short years. Demographics be damned, people are people. Fun is fun.
The only reason us old geezers are doing most of the complaining is because the younger gamers don't know that they should be complaining. They don't know what they missed. It's not their fault. They aren't mutants they just don't know any better.
After reading some of these responses, I feel bad for you old farts. I'm surprised (well, not really) that you tell me that I'm only having fun in a dumbed-down themepark like LotRO instead of a massive, open world because I don't know any better. I'm glad that I wasn't around for the "glory days" so that my opinions aren't tainted by nostalgia. I'm glad that I can enjoy both sandboxes (EVE) and themeparks (LotRO) because I don't spend my time blaming developers for creating shallow, stupid games that I have no interest in, in order to "save the genre" or whatever other righteous cause you think you have.
After reading some of these responses, I just had to let it out. I like where the MMO genre is today. I like that we're getting quality themeparks (TOR) and, hopefully, quality sandboxes (Earthrise). Plus new types of MMOs that I'm sure you'll still shoot down because they're not like the games you remember (APB, Global Agenda, etc). But, hey, you guys have a right to complain, like I said earlier in this thread. Perhaps it's time to move on, aye?
Eh, I think the article greatly exaggerates this phenomenon. I have encountered people who were like "we had to camp mobs for 3 days straight in Everquest AND WE LIKED IT!!!!", but those people are the minority. Overall I think this "old people" thing regarding a genre that's barely over a decade old is overblown. The generational gap is something you'd expect to see over bigger time spans, not something so short. All we are seeing here is that there are a small number of people that were very fond of a particular thing and are upset there isn't a lot more essentially just like it. That happens, but it isn't something huge.
Look at a lot of what the community has called crap recently. Those games ARE crap. They are hastily put together with all the problems rushing brings (they're linear, they shallow, etc). There's no surprise that those games don't do nearly as well as games like LotRO, FFXI, and WoW in the market (yes, even the "kids" don't like the bad titles). People generally don't complain about micro-transactions alone, but when they provide in-game benefits or are for content that should already be in the game in a P2P game, then people complain.
Games where the proper time was taken are being made though. FFXIV and SW: TOR are being made by companies that value quality AND have taken a long time to produce those titles. TOR is going to be having beta testing for OVER A YEAR (FFXIV for many months). I expect these games will be good even if they aren't quite for me (though I expect I'll probably like TOR). I expect there will be other good games that come out. I also expect there will be many crappy games that come out.
This shouldn't surprise anyone. In the regular game market there are so many bad titles we don't even keep track of them all. You should expect something similar with MMOs; it is certainly what we are getting. Because there are fewer MMO titles made, it means that the market is a bit more prone to noticeable streaks of bad, and that's been the only problem we've had in the last few years....just some bad luck.
"Remember to follow our Rules of Conduct"... Awe shucks, cause I had some down right nasty thangs to say about the state of the gaming industry today... Ol' fashioned like. If you catch my drift.
It's been years since I've played a game I truly enjoyed, I feel like Ned Beatty in "Deliverance". Really.
I think alot of today's MMO's have a lot of potential, but they just seem lack some basic understanding of human instincts. And that might have alot to do with the age of the people who are developing them. It seems they are only feeding the extreme emotions.
It's seems as though everything is about chaos, there no real balancing act between good and evil. Sure they say it's about good and evil but it doesn't play out that way.
There's alot of very simple things they could do to or add to modern MMO's that could be more appealing to older gamers, but it's like they're on this bad trip about sticking only with what works, and not giving players what they really want. Almost as if they are using anxiety to sell games. And by that I mean that they get people to buy games hoping that the game is good when it's basicly the same ol', same ol'. They're not really experimenting, the only things that really seem to be getting better are graphics and developers tools.
Now this kinda ticks me off because they got me on this horse making me believe that mature games was going to be their throughline through all of the future of gaming. And then all of a sudden that just drops out from under us all, and we're sitting here sitting on our hands to keep the jitters away because we can't find a reasonably good game that older gamers like to play. It's not that hard to figure out.
So there's really only a couple of things I as and aging gamer can really do, 1. Is i don't buy games like I used to (But I would if there were some that clicked). 2. I express my feelings like I am now and hope and pray. and 3. I try to conceptionalize idea's and make them public, and again hope and pray someone with enough sense catches wind of them and uses them.
At the moment there's only one game that I can play on my system that I am looking forward too. ONE!... Out of all these games, just one! And my favorite game of all time is getting ready to disappear from existence.
I'm not gonna beg and plead with developers anymore, and eventually i'm gonna stop conceptionalizing and sharing, and stop buying my grandchildren video games. I'm gonna stop talking to people about videogames, and eventually games won't even matter for me anymore.
You know the sad part about that is, they're just gonna say "Don't let the door hit yer butt on the way out". It's like nobody gives a rats patooie about anyone. Dog eat dog.... All I can do is shake my head... Yeah, oh yeah I can see 2012 being our date of demise...very easily.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
Several years back I started writing a novel similar to that. I think it would have made an awesome game. It didn't have fishing and all that, but everything else is very similar. Almost scary similar.
Originally posted by brenth
heres a game idea for you: it partly refers to SEED: seed was a great idea but TERRIBLE implementation. it died shortly after its premature birth.
your planet is being destroyed either (fantacy or other) and you have to exit your world the basic method is a teleporter but the trick is your limited in the equipment you can bring and have to pick and choose (this is done so one player arrives with an ax and another arrives with a shovel)... the alternate mode is a ship that crash lands a teraformer or an ark and you wake up and prety much dont know any thing about where you are or about anything.
the basic premice is to learn and discover and explore and overcome chalanges if you do the ship route you usually start by trying to fix and clean up and salvage what you can cnd then slowly move out into the strange new world the key is the unknown is huge in this example you dont even know if the air is breathable what is safe and what will kill you I would also have a wide range of creatures (plant animal and other) some maby be easy to kill and others may take a whole squad or more. the key is you start by knowing nothing not even if there are other inteligent life or even other colonies and will they be friendly or hostile there would be growing crops,, fishing,, boats, ranching even astronomy depending on the theme there could be magic to learn alchemy definatly mining and smithing i would also have weather climates storms disease pestilance that would effect the world id have arctic areas deserts jungles yes this would be skill based and sandboxed.
if anyone is aware of a game like this (that isnt 20 years out of date) please let me know.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
I'd really like the opportunity to discuss your point with you Jon. You see, I think if your premise was correct then the new games catering to the new audience would be remarkably successful. I don't see that, however. Many of the "new" games have struggled incredibly.
What I see are games with less polish, less content, less depth, less immersion, fewer ingame options, less development time, more fees, and more "innovative revenue generating strategies" (i.e. behaviour modification strategies that prime people to spend more on virtual goods). Are customers really clamouring for this, even the next generation of gamers?
I think you make a very logical point that game companies have always been interested in revenue. I agree; that's what business does. However, what you may be missing (probably because you don't think like this yourself, which is a good thing), is that there are at least two vastly different business philosophies that both have the same end in mind--fiscal growth.
One philosophy says the customer is always right. Money is earned "the hard way" via excellence in product, service, marketting and support. I think WoW and EvE are two games that have historically been driven by this philosophy. How they continue to respond to the lure of the other philosophy is something only time can tell.
The other philosophy is this: a fool and his money are soon parted. Some companies base their revenue on this cornerstone. They see customers as dupes, and making money as a shell game. There is less interest in providing a good service, and more interest in marketting psychology, or how to get people to hand over their cash, preferably for very little (or even nothing) in return.
I'm a social science professor, head of my department actually. I see all kinds of behaviour modifications strategies built into games based on the latter philosophy. The games are not viewed as an entertainment service, and gamers are not viewed as valued customers. The game's are merely a revenue generating vehicle. The less development and support, and the more psychological manipulation, the better.
Tbh, I'm starting to think that most of the people motivated by the first strategy now have jobs with Blizzard or CCP. That leaves others to congregate in other MMO houses. churning out sub-par games as quickly as possible, with as many cash grabbing strategies as they can cram into them.
So, I agree that "it" has changed. I think, however, that "it" is the philosophy that development houses base their revenue generating strategies upon. Actually I saw a Dilbert comic that illustrated this nicely. A CEO of a failing company said something like this: "Well we can't compete in quality, service or price, which leaves us with fraud--get me the marketting department." That may be a bit overstated, but I think it highlights an important concept.
Id pay for an updated eq/uo style game that offered a "real" world and challenge. I spend roughly 5k a year on games/computer equipment to support my hobby and thats a bargain compaired to other hobby's. So 50 bucks a month or even up to 100 would be no sweat for me. Theres a market out there and they have more money than your avg "i want it now" generation.
Just to clarify something folks. I didn't say that all of the ills of the MMO industry come down to this one, single thing. It's a contributing factor, but of course bad games are going to fail. A bad game is a bad game, a game without polish lacks polish. That's why i didn't make any specific reference to any game in particular. It's because this is an underlying issue. The article refers to people who are just generally dissatisfied with the core designs of today's MMOs. Issues like polish and implementation are topics for another day's column.
Personally, I don't share your pessimism about business philosophy. doing the whole "pull the wool over your eyes" thing works when you're talking about businesses that rely on single purchases for their primary source of revenue. The appeal of going to all of the trouble to make an MMO, however, is the idea that there might be a continued revenue stream. I would suggest that an MMO company looking to maximize its revenue would look at ways to entice people to stay over the long term, not to fool them into buying the box. The box is just the beginning, the real money's in the subs.
Just my opinion though.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Some of my best friends and most interesting people I knew never lifted a weapon in SWG. It gave me time to wind down after a large PvP battle or after hunting down Jedi with my Bounty Hunter.
So glad you mentioned Freespace. I was a huge fan of Freespace and Freespace 2. Spent a lot of time fighting in Squad Wars with that game. I would surely play an MMO with a Freespace theme.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
Oh?
compare new music today to new music that hit 10 years ago. Do the same with movies and books.
Keep going back in 10 year spans. So compare 1989 to 1999 and then 1979 to 1989., etc.
I think 10 years is more than enough time to see vast differences in how things have been made and what was considered popular and desirable.
as an example:
1969:
Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid
Midnight Cowboy
Italian Job
Wild Bunch
1959:
Some like it hot
Ben Hur
North by Northwest
Pillow talk
movies in 1969 are far grittier than 1959 and directors and writers aside one can feel the difference quite palpably as you will easily feel the zeitgeist of the time.
1949?
On the town
Sands of Iwo Jima
Tokyo Joe
The third man
The differences are palpable.
Music?
1959 bobby darin, paul anka, and frankie avalon as compared to 69 with Temptations, rolling stones, sly and the family stone and Elvis.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am getting near 40, and there is one thing i haven't seen mentioned that really makes me feel my age. Seems every game put out these days has their end game geared toward pvp. Maybe it's just cheaper to do that than put in a ton of pve content for people to go through. A large part of pvp in games these days seems to depend more on reaction time and keyboard skill rather than strategy. Things like circle strafing , staying out of line of site or keeping you target in line of site. When i watch my nieces and nephews play , they are very good at these things. They never have to look the their keyboard and rarely use their mouse. They have been taught how a use a keyboard since elementary school. When i was in elementary school a computer was called a calculator and in high school they still used typewriters. I just never learned how to effectively use a keyboard, so i lose precious seconds glancing down at the keyboard. This makes my reaction time slower (which is already getting slower with age). I still do ok in some games at pvp , but i'll never really excel at it. If you don't feel you can excel in the end game , your probably not going to stick with the game long. This is a big reason why i lean toward pve games with lots of content.
Ok putting the pvp thing , and my lack of dexterity aside. The thing that has changed the most for me (and what i miss the most) in MMO's are the communities. This being influenced by both how games are developed and of course by the people playing them.
The new MMO's that have been coming out don't promote strong communities at all. They are all quest based , which makes grouping much harder. Also games these days are all button mashing games. This makes it very hard to type and hold a conversion with people. Peoples solution for this was vent / teamspeak but it has so many draw backs. People wont use it for a variety of reasons , causes lag , don't have a mic, or my reason i like to listen to music when i play. So you are leaving people out of conversations. You constantly have people talking over one another and people who don't join the conversation because they can't seem to get a word in. You'll lose conversations when for any reason you have to leave your PC. All of this fixed if people could just type in chat instead. I know 99% will disagree but "for me" vent was one of the worst things to happen to gaming.
I started EQ in 1999 when MMO's were still a very new concept. Just a guess but there were probably around 2000 people on the server i played and I'd bet , in the 3 years i played, I had conversed with over 75% of them. That's pretty much unheard of in games today. People rarely socialize outside of their guild. EQ as a game made it really easy to be social though. There wasn't many buttons to hit and a lot of time was spent medding or waiting to melee a mob down. So you had plenty of time to converse with people.
I often hear of people talking about how slow and difficult EQ was in the beginning. Yes xp was slower and death penalties were a bit more but that's not what slowed me down the most. It went slower because you couldn't go through a zone without seeing someone you knew. You'd then sit and talk or perhaps help them with something. There was never the huge rush that everyone is in today. The only rush was the one you were in to get home from work. Not because you wanted that next level or because you wanted that nice new shiny item. It was because there was a very large community of people you missed and you wanted to get back to them. This is a feeling i have never been able to recapture.
I left EQ after 3yrs because i thought the game had lost something. I tried many different games trying to find it again. It took a long time but i finally realized the game never changed. The people playing it was what changed. Gone were the friendly and helpful people who were in awe of a new game concept. Now you had hackers, exploiters, and scammers stealing from you. People were getting greedy and conceited. You weren't allowed in groups cause you didn't have high end gear , or because you didn't play your character or spec how they wanted you to.
I don't put myself above this criticism. I changed also and am guilty of a couple of these things. I do my best now to watch out and realize if I'm doing these things.
I kinda feel sorry for the new players of today that never got to experience how it was when online gaming was new, but i guess the upside to that is they also don't miss it.
I've seen so much talk about the games and how poorly they are made. I can only think of 1 game i ever left because i just hated the gameplay. That was LotRO because i found the combat really boring/bland. Recently i have been leaving games because i can count the number of people who have talked to me on one hand, for the entire free month i played. Yes gameplay is important but i could probably play almost anything if i just found a friendly community to play with. Even a pvp game.
Sorry this was so long, thanks to the people who take the time to read through it. 8)
Since most of my gaming years was in Taiwan, I couldn't shed light on the changing expreince in US or EU.
But as one of the first people playing computer games on this small island(windows 3.0 OS playing red alert, and one of the first Taiwaneese guys on the Diablo US battle.net server)
We went to a far more worse results than you eastern folks.
When PC games rocketed in the 90's, tons of great singel player RPG games flourished with great stories that seemed to last forever in our teen minds. But then there came the internet boom that push pirating sky high, and game companies couldn't make profit.
The end result is there are no delicate and meaningful games anymore, the market is dominated by F2P games in Asia(Taiwan, China, Korea). Nowadays, it's just more about comparing gear and outfits than actual game experience. The majority of MMO players care more about how fast they can reach cap and buy or get the huge sword that glows light and dragon mount, than really diving into a good fantasy world experience.
Sigh...
Being a game developer myself, I'm already wondering everyday "who plays these kind of games that is utterly no fun at all", and the said reality is we have to make them because the majority consumers want them this way.
Each person can only
hold enough knowledge to add one small rung to the
ladder, but together we can climb to the moon.
I said it in a lot more detail, with suggestions on what I would like, over in this thread, But I copied the non suggestion parts to here:
No MMO is completely linear (themepark) and it would be impossible to create an all themepark MMO. You simply cannot make content faster than people progress through it. The difference between "themepark" and "sandbox" is really a very fine line. In sandbox games from day one you have to choose what you want to do be it raids, pvp, crafting or whatever. People who are self-motivated (or part of groups who are) will have the most fun in open-non linear environments because they will find ways to have fun on their own and don't rely on the game to lead them to fun things.
In themepark games you have a linear part of the game (leveling, doing the story arc or whatever) during which the game leads you to things to do and occupy your time with and (hopefully) have fun doing these things. But once you have completed all the linear parts of the game you have to choose what you want to do and find ways on your own to spend your time in ways that are fun for you which is the same as what occurs in sandbox MMOs. In either case if you are cannot, or are unwilling to, find things that make the non-linear parts of the game fun then you're probably not going to enjoy your play time.
As I see it the real problem with recent "themepark" games is that their linear content is fairly limited and they failed to add enough good non linear content for people to do once the linear content has been completed. While the recent "sandbox" games suffer from having no direction for people who aren't highly self motivated to get into the game and meet people who are self motivated and can help the previous to find things to do and have fun.
Looking to the future I think the next big MMO will be a blend both styles and not try to cater too much to one or the other.
This, exactly. $50 a month for a fee is nothing to me if a company can deliver an experience I enjoy. I drop that on lunch for my wife and I. There are more of "them" perhaps, but "we" have more disposable income.
The key is finding a way to pry it from our aging hands...
I'm waiting for a "premium" sandbox style game to come along eventually, with an extreme focus on customer service, perhaps a fee of something like $49.95 a month, no "item shop" or "ala carte" fees, catering to a more mature audience. I'm sure some indie developer will figure it out eventually if the larger developers don't.
The cell phone companies certainly did, which is why I pay $230 a month for an "unlimited" plan now as opposed to the old nickel-and-dime fees of the past. Unlimited text, voice, and data. Do I always get my "money's worth" from such a plan? No, but it's nice to not have to worry about additional fees. The phone bill is the same; every month. No matter how much I use it.
Some of my best friends and most interesting people I knew never lifted a weapon in SWG. It gave me time to wind down after a large PvP battle or after hunting down Jedi with my Bounty Hunter.
So glad you mentioned Freespace. I was a huge fan of Freespace and Freespace 2. Spent a lot of time fighting in Squad Wars with that game. I would surely play an MMO with a Freespace theme.
Many of mine also and a few really stand out for me.
! guild member had been in a bad accident in his youth resulting in amputation of 1 arm and very little functionality in the other but SWG became a graphical chat system for him he thoroughly enjoyed being a entertainer and would often put on comedy performances he was a great SWG stand up comedian.
There where many like the above who lived for the pure crafter or the entertaining side of things.
Contrary to some of the comments throughout the thread SWG did indeed sell 1 million copies, SWG did around February 04 have 450k active subscriptions these had bled down to 300k-350k by 2005 and then took a large dip with the first disaster of 05 the CU this was further compounded in November that year with the NGE.
Pre CU sure it was bleeding subs every MMO does but there where a number of factors played a large role in SWG bleeding out in its infancy.
SWG was a very popular game with the military MMO players in 03 the second gulf war began then with a vast increase in troops in 04 I still believe to this day that this accounted for the loss of thousands of subs as our troops headed of for 6-12 month tours.
Despite WOW's release in 04 SWG was still very healthy and that 300k-350k mark was very respectable for its time then the CU hit and it took a nosedive I don't have figures but 25% of my friends list dissapeared overnight.
Then November that year arrived and "it was like a million subscribers all cried out and then where suddenly cancelled" well OK perhaps not 1 million but again basing on friends list within that first month around 50% of the active base at that time.
SO SWG 1 million sales, 03 -early 04 450k subs steadily decreased to the point of WOW and EQ2 release to around 325K, CU 05 - 250k, NGE - bordering on 100K.
So to the point of the changes made to the core game SWG had a very healthy retention rate of 30%+ based on 1 million sales any MMO in the world would snap your hand of for that kind of retention rate 18 month post launch but it obviously wasn't enough for SOE.
The playerbase didn't change the genre didn't bring something these players suddenly wanted the game was stripped from under them which forced the number crashes.
Anywhoo not to turn this into a Pre-CU SWG thing I do still believe a market is there for the type of game SWG was or UO was but it is going to take a studio with a AAA budget to truly convert the masses as much as DF, MO etc are trying to pave the way again they just don't have the production values and polish that a AAA can offer.
I have to disagree John.
The new target audience might not be as hardcore as it used to be.
It doesn't change the fact that the new target audience doesn't want longlasting games.
What is the point of making an MMO, push it out of the door fast, and have over 80% quit already in the first month?
If Publishers and Studios cannot be arsed to create MMO's with a longlasting appeal. Then why bother in the first place?
Then they should just stick to single player or multiplayer games instead.
Cryptic is a prime example in that. Champions Online and Star Trek Online are just horrible games from MMORPG perspective.
They are fun, but the longlasting appeal doesn't last longer then the first month.
Cryptic should have released them as single player RPG games with Multiplayer option. And then push out DLC stuff to gain extra profit.
No one would complain then. As that is how those games feel. And then price is more justified.
Cheers
I don't have an issue with companies trying to make a profit. I don't really contest that previous companies, many of which are no longer in existence, were doing the same thing. I do take an issue with the companies that pump out as much crap as they possibly can, sitting behind the safety that no one can actually return their purchase once they found out how crappy it really is, and/or who milke a franchise to death for a short-term cash grab.
Activision pumped out 25, 25 GH titles last year. The industry managed to get consumers burned out on music games pretty quick and that benefits who exactly? Pumping out sub-par medicore MMO each year with no chance in longevity and the very high likely hood of yanking servers when everyone burns through the content benefits who exactly?
Sure, the publishing companies at first but when consumers fork over their hard earned cash and they can pay off their debt and line the pockets of their investors, but what about the next group that puts out a quality game and the market shies away from it, what about the next time someone creates an MMO with long-term prospects and the gut reaction of the consumers is I am not going to pay 15 dollars a month for a game that intends to fold in 2 years and micro-tran me to death right up until the end?
There are a lot of publishers who really don't care about the long-term health of the industry at all, and it really shows.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
No, it is not just you, this is pretty much it. I really agree with the OP and this is also why we won't ever see a game like Deus Ex (which is in my opinion still the best game ever made) or System Shock.
'Most powerful is he who controls his own power.'
I'm sorry, but if letting the world devolve into simplistic stupidity is "where things are just going" forgive me if I continue to rage against clouds.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!