We live in a world full of software developers, it seems.

DuClaire

Is it just me, or does anyone and everyone pull out the "I am a software developer", "I code games", "I am a game dev", "I have 20 years experience creating games and mmo's" card whenever they make a statement?

I play games, but feel somewhat odd, because it seems to me like only those who actually make them, play them.

I personally work in the Finance market. I have never ever coded a game, nor at the age of 22 have I had mmo development experience, nor have I ever coded a game. Closest I ever got was basic scripting in the Neverwinter Nights editor for a custom module.

Where are the REAL people? Because out of my group of friends, and other avid gamers i've met.. i've yet to meet 1 software developer, or game designer. Even at SOE Fan Faire, with god knows how many attending.. I did not speak to a single developer (that wasn't on the SOE staff) even though they all obviously played MMO's.

Just a thought heh. But either I'm missing the point and simply don't realise that every job even those practicing medicine, or a cleaner etc involve some sort of game development in their job description, or some people like to assert their authority in the MMO genre by laying false claims.

Not a flame. Just an observation.

 

DuClaire

arcdevil

Well, Im a software developer

not games, but mac/win multiplatform applications

 

most people that says they are game developers probably toyed a bit with playerworlds, maybe even Torque3D...and failed miserably at it. Others pretend they know how to code games because they know some c++ or java...they fail to realize how much more difficult and different is programming games, show someone with a bit of c++ knowledge a snippet of code from a game and im sure he wont even understand the first line.

So dont believe armchair programmers, game developers are probably the best programmers out there, far beyond those working for the army or for, say, google or microsoft.

 

edit: that said, you gotta realize what sector of the industry we discuss in this forums. chances are, from time to time a real game developer will pass by and post here, like a car engineer read and posts in motor websites...

 

 

druarc

Originally posted by arcdevil


So dont believe armchair programmers, game developers are probably the best programmers out there, far beyond those working for the army or for, say, google or microsoft.

 

Really I'd say they come in the same sort of flavours all coder's do brilliant through to crud, personally I know a lot of developers (me included specialise in ORACLE), but that could be because I've been doing this for close on 20 years.

 

Back to the original post, I know a few people in the industry, but I would never profess to know the 1st thing about games developing, yeah I've dabbled with stuff but pure at the amature level. And as to why a lot of people here think they know heaps about coding games --- it's EGO.

Kickphat

You also gotta know a lot of the new jobs out there are software developers. As we more and more to thing running by them selves you are going to need people to code and develop the software that runs those things. Then you are also going to need people to maintain that software and update it when it needs updating.

In the end a lot of those people might be telling the truth when they say there are coders or programmers but most of the people that says there are game developers are most likely not. It takes a lot of math skills to program a game. Just go and look at Full Sails Degree Programs on Game Developing. You need to know basic Trig to get into the program at the school. You even have to take test and if you don't score a 75% on the test they put you in a catch up class which goes over basic trig in one month. If you score below 30% and tell you that you should go somewhere else and work on your math skills and come back later when you are ready.

Cristina1

This is the internet, people lie and they lie a lot. Some have interest in game development, so they go online spouting the little pieces of information they know and pretend that they code games. It is their fantasy, nothing more.

 

There are plenty of people on Mortal Online official boards who pretend to be game devs, I like it when they get shot down for being wrong by the real devs who are working on Mortal

Aesdyn2

I'll try a stab at this.

I'm also a software developer. I'm 26 years old, and quite frankly building a game engine - which is really to me the most fun part, requires an intense desire to learn and build 3D mathematical skills in addition to algorithmic thinking. I developed a small prototype that encompassed a network server component connected to a SQL database, a 3D client with chat, and terrain, where you could run around and go up stairs etc and open doors. ( I dynamically generated all the vertices for the housing system, letting me create all sorts of possibilities.)

To be quite frank, I don't have a degree, and working on the graphics engine taught me that it takes a lot of logical reasoning skills in addition to a deep understanding of 3D. It is quite interesting that the development of vertex shaders/pixel shaders can be quite a mathematical task. I built as mall 3D heart viewer, that lets you click on a 3D model ( I bought online) and it creates rings on the geometry highlighting that region. This taught me things. I guess writing graphics applications requires small "experiments".

As I'm now going to community college to get my associates in science, I hope to continue studying (I have two shelves full of Calculus/3D books, Fluid Dynamics etc.) things like Physics/Chemistry and more Math, Linear Algebra for Matrix Transformations, Quaternion for Rotations in 3D dimensions, avoiding gimbals lock. Theory on light and lenses, projections etc. I can tell you that a desire for learning and patience is critical.

There was a point where I was trying to figure out how our vision system works, in terms of why objects appear smaller or larger. The theory behind perspective projection and working things out and really trying hard, helped me figure out the concept of the frustum and lines, and how they are mathematical represented based upon sending rays from space onto a surface, and how you can construct a Matrix that represents the transformative results you are looking for.

I have so much more to still learn, and I recommend this type of programming for anyone who wants to delve deep into math and explore the possibilities. I firmly believe that graphics programming tied to output/input devices, will be the conduit for many valid applications. (It already is but I mean even more so as time progresses.)

 

thamighty213

As a previous poster stated this is the internet, that one space that offers you almost complete anonimity to lie through your back teeth.

 

I am a multi millionaire 6ft 4 inch Conan stand in stunt double who had built the 10 most succesful games to date,  oh I also invented the wheel and am days away from curing cancer.

 

Obviously I stretched that a little far but it isn't hard to see through peoples lies theres always something in the post that just makes them look foolish.

 

I do actually work in the MMO industry but within community,  I have zero interest in programming have never nor will ever program something hell I havent even scripted anything beyond a simple IRC swear filter way back in the days of Kingpin (FPS) in the late 90s.

 

I do take some enjoyment when the script kiddie, armchair programmers spout of and a dev comes along and kinda slaps them into place

Kyleran

I'm a software developer..... er, well no, I'm a project manager now in software development, but for vertical market business software, not video games. (oh, to live the dream, but business apps generally pay better and are jobs are easier to find)

But I do feel qualified to comment on software development in general, including application of process to control software projects and games do not fall outside of my experience in that regard.

I've actually helped deliver software in many different fields, from engineering, finance, telcom, 3rd party and internal, and there are fundamental similarities between all of them. 

Many of the problems I see with todays games can be traced back I'm sure to the same failures I've observed in other industries, lack of proper paid QA (one of the industries greatest sins, some games literally have no paid QA staff)

I suspect most have  very poor change control (I'm sure they chalk that up to the need to be creative) to extremely poor requirement gathering (when was the last time you were polled on what you wanted?) and definition (the number one factor in terms of causing software projects to overrun their estimates and delivery dates (and fail outright in many cases)

I may not have developed games, but they aren't  exempt from core programming principals that can be applied to almost any type of software development. 

People just think they are.

 

TheHatter

I am a Computer Science Junior, but that's about it. I don't know crap and I don't really claim to know crap. I like programming, I'm good at it... but I really enjoy the general IT field more. From what I have seen, the money is far better on average for people who have actual computer knowledge and not just ITT Tech BS crap certifications, than the money for an average programmer. Even more so, if you have the entrepreneurial spirit like me.

I've actually been a Junior for 3yrs now, because I'm national guard and I got sent to Iraq. lol. So, I've been researching the job markets quite a bit for awhile now. From what I've seen, programmer jobs don't really pay crap, people just like to tout their wannabe half assed script kiddie knowledge on the internet in a miserable attempt to inflate their egos. I've been a big computer geek for a long long time now, and nothing has changed. It's always been like that on the internet.

Honestly, in the years I've been looking around at what jobs are out there, I don't think I've seen but a few programmer jobs that would even put you at odds with a Cop's salary. If people want to pretend like they are programmers, like it's something cool and something that people look up to or something, good for them. If you enjoy programming and that's what makes you happy, then it doesn't matter how much it pays. Personally, I just like computers and everything about them, as long as I'm around high technology, I'm happy.... so I can go where I think the money is.

To me, the only thing that's 'cool' is who has worked harder and made more money. I have met people in my life that I you would think are half way retarded, but have worked hard and done the right things and are worth millions. 

Ravenmane

I'm a game design gearing towards the art side of the house with aspirations of one day working for a game development company.  I am still forced to take classes on how the industry is run and the processes and what not.  I have experience with Torque3D, Unreal, 3DS Max, and other various software my school gives me to learn.  One day I'll get there.

 

But i understand where the OP is coming from.  People feel that if they pull one of those cards then they think others will take their comments seriously.  I never claim to be in game development yet, however, I do share the knowledge I know when it comes to how a company is run or why publishers do what they do.  And there's where you can tell the difference between those who are in the development industry and the ones who aren't.  You can tell by the replies.  People that don't understand the industry on the development level tend to blame developers for everything even when a game has minimal issues.

 

Most of the time it isn't the developers as a whole but usually the project lead or the publishers that make some of the decisions that can make or break the game.  For instance look at Tabula Rasa.  If Richard Garriott would have stuck around to actually give the development team direction it might still be around.  However, for whatever reason, he left the team and the publishers took over and when they felt they weren't getting the numbers they bail on the project, causing it to shut down.  That is a case of a publisher caring about fast money rather than a long term financial goal.

 

But then look at Warcraft.  Games Workshop approached Blizzard Interactive int eh early 90's to make a rts based on the Warhammer game.  After a while they came back and saw what Blizz had done.  Not being pleased they pulled the plug.  However someone in Blizz had the bright idea to rework the story and keep all the work and release it as Warcraft.  Thus we have the horrible monstrosity of WoW because of that.

 

And the latest developer controversy...Cryptic.  Some people disagreed with them originally charging for expansions, stating they should be free.  That's almost a double-edged blade.  I think it was partially the publisher on the original idea.  Offering a lifetime sub meant that in order to still develop for the game they would still need some sort of income which would come in the form of payable expansion packs.  Funny thing is they complained till they got it changed that it would be free but yet I don't see anyone complaining on the WoW or EQ2 boards when they have to pay for an expansion there.

 

Anyway, back on topic, these forums are a bad place for trying to get the truth about a game to begin with.  I would stick with the news articles, however, I find the forums to be a never-ending collection of flame wars and haters with naive lost newbies thrown in the mix.  90% of the people who post here claiming to be a developer, really isn't.  Like what was stated earlier, they were probably tinkering with a level editor or something, but have no real experience what so ever.  If you want honest opinions for games, go to the reviewers who actually work for publications and get paid a lot more to review them than come to the forums here.

Ravanos

just like everyone on AOL was hot!

 

the majority are full of it.

midmagic

I am a  masters student in computer science (I get a big pay raise if I finish this up) and former black hat turned white hat. I'd rather work on solving the engineering problems of the past at this point in my life that have allowed hacking to be so easy in the first place. Currently I'm learning computer graphics but not for games but to build visualizations of complex mathematics. Pictures are typically easier to understand than a page of numbers for demonstration purposes.

I do not have MMO programming experience but I've torn a few of them apart.

 

To OP... you never said any of those people post here. Maybe this site draws in people that work in the field or have technical backgrounds. Also, even you claim to have worked in a scripting language. That is more than most can say.

UnsungToo

Sometimes it's BS, sometimes people are revevealing their credentials.

I develop boardgames, cardgames, game concepts, and rashes. I've even developed a few games using game development softwares, but I can't write a single line of code that works.

Game development has alot of different facets to it. So someone might be creating weapons for a game, or characters, or animations, or writing a story line. It's all game development, and they might be relating  referring to that.

Ravenmane

I believe he was just making an observation about the posts here.  And yes pictures are easier to work with.  It's the scripting that can be a pain.  For instance I have a friend who works with Torque3D, it isn't the most user friendly thing.  Thankfully I make his job easier.  When I create a model for him for a level or the level itself...all I gotta do is just change the format of the file.  He has the headache of having to script it or code it so it shows up properly when it's supposed to.

 

And even though a lot of things can be used in development like weapon design etc.  It's the developers and people in the industry who know why things are the way they are.  A lot of people don't realize a game can be flawed because it's rushed.  If it's rushed and buggy it's not the developers fault.  It's the publisher.  The developer is there to try and make his game the best they can, well, because it's their job and if they want to keep it and have people buy their games so they can support whatever family or habit they have then they would prefer to work on their creations till they are perfect.  Unfortunatley, publishers want to see returns on their investments, relatively quickly sometimes.  But some know that for a game to be really good you have to give the developer the time they need.