While the art style isn't going to make or break the game for me, I too have noticed an overwhelming similarity of the armor, weapons, and technology from the Old Republic period to the time frame from the movies. Perhaps though, the most interesting similarity is the symbol for the Sith "Empire" is the exact same symbol that the Galactic Empire used in the movies, and the republic symbol is the same as the Galactic Alliance symbol from the EU book series.
I seem to have fallen into this magical fantasy land where SWG wasn't losing tons of subscribers before they even thought about the CU or NGE that these pseudointellectuals live in. Read some of the dev blogs and attempt to get over yourselves.
Thats usually what happens in sandbox games when content dries up.. And seriously, what content other than unlocking a jedi and doing pvp was there in SWG.. Hmm not too much only one of the best crafting systems ever designed... Space was added later.. A player economy driven completely by the crafters was pretty awesome stuff.. So they were losing subs... Is that any reason to change the mechanics of the combat system and class system? They lost subs for a completely different reason, and all signs point to a severe lack of quests and content in general. I can tell you never played the game seriously enough to see its faults and flaws.
Oh ya, lets not forget WoW and eq2 both came out in nov 2004.. Pretty much at the point swg subs started falling off.. And why did they fall off? NEw game engines, new worlds loaded with quests and content.. No other reason.. SWG combat and class system should have never been touched..
For the record i hated the star wars game The force unleached i refuse to play that stupid game and for many reasons .
So i completely agree here with the OP , am not worried about bioware with Tor i think they will please many of us and thousands will still play their mmo when it launches .
The only thing that could potentially damage SWTOR would be if the devs actually paid attention to the few remaining anti-trinity idiots on their forums spewing about how they hate the mmo genre and actually want Jedi Knight 3: Online Adventures.
Last I checked those "idiots" are the Devs themselves. TOR isn't going with the classic Holy Trinity nor are they going with group fights where everyone gangs up on one enemy.
Yes, there's healing in the game, but they don't plan on having dedicated healings that just pump out heal after heal after heal.
Yes, there's people taking damage in the game, but they don't plan on having one person grab all of the "aggro."
Everyone does damage (even the Consular uses melee attacks).
You can have group fights and teamwork matter and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that you must go with that is what is truly idiotic. The Trinity mechanic is probably one of the most immersion-breaking dynamics in MMOs out there right now.
Oh, and you can still have classes with different weaknesses and strengths and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that "class roles" or "class specialities" is the same as the Holy Trinity is another peculiar plague that has been inflicted upon a lot of people in the MMO community.
As for this article...I don't find it very compelling. The Jedi had a Lightsaber combat style based on using two weapons. I DO feel it is nit-picking to discriminate between using two weapons and using a double-ended lightsaber, and I'm a massive Star Wars nerd.
Also, as others pointed out, it seems poorly researched. Consulars and Inquisitors are NOT wizards. They don't sit back and cast spells. As people who have played them at events have noted, if you do that, you hurt yourself. A Consular is going to be up front attacking with their lightsaber like a Knight. The big difference is that the Knight has a lot of lightsaber abilities and the Consular has a lot of force abilities (and from what I hear this makes the playstyle quite different).
I really think this is not going to be an MMO as we are familiar with. In fact most of premium games coming out anymore are drifting away from the standard MMORPG layout. There was an article just written about STO about this.
With SWTOR, I think we will see something more of a MassEffect co-op game with a ton of content. There will have to be a ton of content to make a story driven game with a monthly sub. For what is the point of a monthly sub if you run out of content after 3 weeks? At least this is what I am hoping. Enough content to keep people interested for 6+months. That requires a huge starting game world, and a constant dedication to expanding it.
I certainly would not mind if it were a single player/ small co-op game Mass Effect style. Hell, I wish Mass Effect 2 had enough content to keep me playing forever, and I would be happy to pay a sub fee for that. Especially if there were a MP aspect to it.
As far as the nitpicking for geeks... It is a Star Wars game... by Bioware. Be happy.
The only thing that could potentially damage SWTOR would be if the devs actually paid attention to the few remaining anti-trinity idiots on their forums spewing about how they hate the mmo genre and actually want Jedi Knight 3: Online Adventures.
Last I checked those "idiots" are the Devs themselves. TOR isn't going with the classic Holy Trinity nor are they going with group fights where everyone gangs up on one enemy.
Yes, there's healing in the game, but they don't plan on having dedicated healings that just pump out heal after heal after heal.
Yes, there's people taking damage in the game, but they don't plan on having one person grab all of the "aggro."
Everyone does damage (even the Consular uses melee attacks).
You can have group fights and teamwork matter and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that you must go with that is what is truly idiotic. The Trinity mechanic is probably one of the most immersion-breaking dynamics in MMOs out there right now.
Oh, and you can still have classes with different weaknesses and strengths and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that "class roles" or "class specialities" is the same as the Holy Trinity is another peculiar plague that has been inflicted upon a lot of people in the MMO community.
I don't see how you can't have the Trinity unless you take the focus off of healing and put it almost completely in crowd control. That or make it way too easy. There is a reason the trinity class system is in place for multiplayer games. It is the only way to really balance group combat and give people roles.
You say it is idiotic, immersion-breaking but you offer no alternative. So what is your grand plan to redefine the genre?
Originally posted by ghettobooste I don't see how you can't have the Trinity unless you take the focus off of healing and put it almost completely in crowd control. That or make it way too easy. There is a reason the trinity class system is in place for multiplayer games. It is the only way to really balance group combat and give people roles. You say it is idiotic, immersion-breaking but you offer no alternative. So what is your grand plan to redefine the genre?
And this is why I say HT is the most damaging thing in MMOs. Despite the fact HT didn't exist before Everquest, you somehow think it is essential for multi-player games. There are literally dozens of alternatives from other computer games, board games, pen and paper role-playing games, and so forth. Many of those of multi-player.
If you want me to rattle off a few, then I'll do that. Battlemech, D&D (no version is HT), and Guild Wars are 3 different systems, and none are "too easy." They are just the tip of the iceberg.
The ONLY reason HT is used so much is because of Everquest was successful and used it, then WoW copied them (though they simplified things a bit) and has been crazy-successful. Almost everyone else has been trying to copy them. Oh, here's a 4th example of something that isn't HT: WoW PvP, though I guess that fits your based "almost completely on crowd control" line, though, imho, there's a lot more to it than that.
Originally posted by ghettobooste I don't see how you can't have the Trinity unless you take the focus off of healing and put it almost completely in crowd control. That or make it way too easy. There is a reason the trinity class system is in place for multiplayer games. It is the only way to really balance group combat and give people roles. You say it is idiotic, immersion-breaking but you offer no alternative. So what is your grand plan to redefine the genre?
And this is why I say HT is the most damaging thing in MMOs. Despite the fact HT didn't exist before Everquest, you somehow think it is essential for multi-player games. There are literally dozens of alternatives from other computer games, board games, pen and paper role-playing games, and so forth. Many of those of multi-player. If you want me to rattle off a few, then I'll do that. Battlemech, D&D (no version is HT), and Guild Wars are 3 different systems, and none are "too easy." They are just the tip of the iceberg. The ONLY reason HT is used so much is because of Everquest was successful and used it, then WoW copied them (though they simplified things a bit) and has been crazy-successful. Almost everyone else has been trying to copy them. Oh, here's a 4th example of something that isn't HT: WoW PvP, though I guess that fits your based "almost completely on crowd control" line, though, imho, there's a lot more to it than that.
lolwut.
DnD is not an MMO (unless you count DDO, which has a trinity system). Battlemech also isn't an MMO. Guild Wars has trinity. WoW PVP is trinity minus taunts.
So in short you just destroyed your own point. That happen often?
I don't see how you can't have the Trinity unless you take the focus off of healing and put it almost completely in crowd control. That or make it way too easy. There is a reason the trinity class system is in place for multiplayer games. It is the only way to really balance group combat and give people roles.
You say it is idiotic, immersion-breaking but you offer no alternative. So what is your grand plan to redefine the genre?
And this is why I say HT is the most damaging thing in MMOs. Despite the fact HT didn't exist before Everquest, you somehow think it is essential for multi-player games. There are literally dozens of alternatives from other computer games, board games, pen and paper role-playing games, and so forth. Many of those of multi-player.
If you want me to rattle off a few, then I'll do that. Battlemech, D&D (no version is HT), and Guild Wars are 3 different systems, and none are "too easy." They are just the tip of the iceberg.
The ONLY reason HT is used so much is because of Everquest was successful and used it, then WoW copied them (though they simplified things a bit) and has been crazy-successful. Almost everyone else has been trying to copy them. Oh, here's a 4th example of something that isn't HT: WoW PvP, though I guess that fits your based "almost completely on crowd control" line, though, imho, there's a lot more to it than that.
lolwut.
DnD is not an MMO (unless you count DDO, which has a trinity system). Battlemech also isn't an MMO. Guild Wars has trinity.
So in short you just destroyed your own point. That happen often?
How does that destroy my point? What does an MMO combat system need? It needs a way for a group of people to be challenged. Every system I mentioned does that, and the same thing could be translated (and has been translated in the past) over to computer games. There's no reason they couldn't form the basis of an MMO combat system. That's my point.
Apparently you think that when I was citing combat systems that could be used in an MMO I should restrict myself to the HT-saturated MMO market? Is innovation or even outright copying a (non-mmo) system is impossible to you?
Maybe you should actually read the discussion and make a constructive post instead of failing at trying to make people look stupid.
I seem to have fallen into this magical fantasy land where SWG wasn't losing tons of subscribers before they even thought about the CU or NGE that these pseudointellectuals live in. Read some of the dev blogs and attempt to get over yourselves.
Thats usually what happens in sandbox games when content dries up.. And seriously, what content other than unlocking a jedi and doing pvp was there in SWG.. Hmm not too much only one of the best crafting systems ever designed... Space was added later.. A player economy driven completely by the crafters was pretty awesome stuff.. So they were losing subs... Is that any reason to change the mechanics of the combat system and class system? They lost subs for a completely different reason, and all signs point to a severe lack of quests and content in general. I can tell you never played the game seriously enough to see its faults and flaws.
Oh ya, lets not forget WoW and eq2 both came out in nov 2004.. Pretty much at the point swg subs started falling off.. And why did they fall off? NEw game engines, new worlds loaded with quests and content.. No other reason.. SWG combat and class system should have never been touched..
You SWG refugees are a delusional bunch. Played on Corbantis(iirc) for the first six months as a carbineer(sure loved killing myself because of the retarded HAM bar...) and only stuck around so long because I was a SW fanboy. From the onset the class balance, lack of content, and combat were terrible. Why would you force somebody to either sit in front of a dancing idiot or find another player to allow you to go back to hunting? That was a dreadfully awful idea. Crafter based economy where prices got out of control much like they are currently in Eve. I suppose that's a one of the major flaws of those types of systems. Run to this spot on the map, kill the spawned mobs, and return or take the role of a UPS employee were about the only missions I ended up suffering through.
I'm so sick of you guys pretending it was such a fantastic game. There were some good aspects but overall it was bad, and people need to drop the "Old Girlfriend Syndrome". I can't believe so many people enjoyed spending their time trying to fill their houses with useless crap. I mean you are defending a sci-fi Sims Online where it was more of a job than a game. Should I even bring up the fact that entire classes were incomplete at launch? I had some fun while playing this game, but claiming it was a gift from the Gods to the MMO genre is provably wrong. Stop living in denial SWG refugees.
My word and world holds ground and is real Your word is like floods of poisoned water A language spoken with spit from different tongues More of my unwanted opinions
Some people need to remove the blinders and look at what is available in the genre. The Holy Trinity method is just one of the many ways MMO's have achieved success. Neither UO nor AC1 had the holy trinity, nor does Eve with a more modern approach. Classes and HT are just lazy developers trying to get a product to market fast, it has nothing to do with building a good MMO.
If you can't remove the blinders and see this than I really feel quite sorry for you.
Apparently you think that when I was citing combat systems that could be used in an MMO I should restrict myself to the HT-saturated MMO market?
No, I just don't think you should cite MMOs that have trinity as examples of MMOs that's done have trinity. Makes you look like you enjoy the shrooms more than intelligent debate.
Maybe you should actually read the discussion and make a constructive post instead of failing at trying to make people look stupid.
I was not trying to make you look stupid. I was pointing out you made yourself look stupid by citing MMOs that have trinity as examples for non-trinity systems.
Frankly, even if it were my intent to make you look stupid, I freely admit I could not have topped you.
Originally posted by Ozmodan Some people need to remove the blinders and look at what is available in the genre. The Holy Trinity method is just one of the many ways MMO's have achieved success. Neither UO nor AC1 had the holy trinity, nor does Eve with a more modern approach. Classes and HT are just lazy developers trying to get a product to market fast, it has nothing to do with building a good MMO.
If you can't remove the blinders and see this than I really feel quite sorry for you.
EVE Online is nothing like WoW or even TOR. It's just unrealstic to expect TOR to follow it's systems when it's a game about player characters and not spaceships.
UO and AC1 were financial misteps, why would any sane developer try to copy them?
You're talking to people who don't want a game that has a massive population. They want a niche game and feel that people who prefer the tried and true method from a group that has yet to release an mmo are automatically children. These same goofballs would rather see a company take a multi-million dollar gamble instead of playing it safe the first time around.
My word and world holds ground and is real Your word is like floods of poisoned water A language spoken with spit from different tongues More of my unwanted opinions
The author is putting is own personal biases on a universe that Bioware essentially created. It may be Star Wars, but Bioware created the Old Republic for KOTOR, KOTOR II, and this game.
Who cares that certain classes are depicted wielding double bladed lightsabers? And who came up with that "double bladed lightsabers are difficult to wield and frowned upon by the Jedi Council" hogwash anyway? As far as I know Bioware never included that crap in the Old Republic universe they created (in fact, I seem to recall one Bastila Shan wielding a double bladed lightsaber.) Who cares if the Sith Warrior class looks like Vader? Obviously they were going for warriors using Vader as a template and Sith Inquisitors using the Emperor as a template. Who cares what the speederbike looks like? What a dumb thing to nitpick.
I would bet money that what Bioware does with this IP will surpass what George himself has done since return of the jedi.Im playing mass effect 2 right now and these guys are dead set geniuses. the story and the detail and the plausability is so frakking awesome Im probably more a fan of mass effect lore now than Starwars. Which is a pretty big statement given that I love starwars a great deal. I was one of those fans that was majorly burned by the crappiness of the episodes so I guess I'm in the camp that thinks a company like Bioware couldnt do anything worse than has already been done by the abusive father of the franchise.
If you dont count actually creating the saga, george lucas was the worst thing that happened to star wars. Like the previous poster, I agree that bioware has done more for it than lucas has. Of course, short of creating the franchise in the first place.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Apparently you think that when I was citing combat systems that could be used in an MMO I should restrict myself to the HT-saturated MMO market?
No, I just don't think you should cite MMOs that have trinity as examples of MMOs that's done have trinity. Makes you look like you enjoy the shrooms more than intelligent debate.
What are you talking about? You mean when I mentioned WoW PvP? Last I checked there is no Tank Role there, so that aspect of the game does indeed have no HT system. You don't have a trinity if "tanks" can't hold aggro or otherwise redirect damage to themselves.
Maybe you should actually read the discussion and make a constructive post instead of failing at trying to make people look stupid.
I was not trying to make you look stupid. I was pointing out you made yourself look stupid by citing MMOs that have trinity as examples for non-trinity systems. Frankly, even if it were my intent to make you look stupid, I freely admit I could not have topped you. I was citing combat systems that are in games other than MMOs, by and large. At best I mentioned two MMOs. Guild Wars, which doesn't have HT and WoW (in which PvP doesn't have HT). Frankly, it is quite laughable you think GW has HT. Though, given that you think WoW PvP has it, I imagine you don't actually know what the Holy Trinity is.
Tanks are currently useless in WoW's PVP because you don't have to deal with them if there was collision detection they'd have a much greater role.Save vanilla PVP teams in WSG that had the guys in AQ40 gear run the flags(soooo fun). I do recall the prot warrior and even the prot paladin being popular in arena at times, but even then the concept is still there somebody takes the damage while somebody is healing. Guild wars I can't speak for.
My word and world holds ground and is real Your word is like floods of poisoned water A language spoken with spit from different tongues More of my unwanted opinions
I seem to have fallen into this magical fantasy land where SWG wasn't losing tons of subscribers before they even thought about the CU or NGE that these pseudointellectuals live in. Read some of the dev blogs and attempt to get over yourselves.
Thats usually what happens in sandbox games when content dries up.. And seriously, what content other than unlocking a jedi and doing pvp was there in SWG.. Hmm not too much only one of the best crafting systems ever designed... Space was added later.. A player economy driven completely by the crafters was pretty awesome stuff.. So they were losing subs... Is that any reason to change the mechanics of the combat system and class system? They lost subs for a completely different reason, and all signs point to a severe lack of quests and content in general. I can tell you never played the game seriously enough to see its faults and flaws.
Oh ya, lets not forget WoW and eq2 both came out in nov 2004.. Pretty much at the point swg subs started falling off.. And why did they fall off? NEw game engines, new worlds loaded with quests and content.. No other reason.. SWG combat and class system should have never been touched..
You SWG refugees are a delusional bunch. Played on Corbantis(iirc) for the first six months as a carbineer(sure loved killing myself because of the retarded HAM bar...) and only stuck around so long because I was a SW fanboy. From the onset the class balance, lack of content, and combat were terrible. Why would you force somebody to either sit in front of a dancing idiot or find another player to allow you to go back to hunting? That was a dreadfully awful idea. Crafter based economy where prices got out of control much like they are currently in Eve. I suppose that's a one of the major flaws of those types of systems. Run to this spot on the map, kill the spawned mobs, and return or take the role of a UPS employee were about the only missions I ended up suffering through.
I'm so sick of you guys pretending it was such a fantastic game. There were some good aspects but overall it was bad, and people need to drop the "Old Girlfriend Syndrome". I can't believe so many people enjoyed spending their time trying to fill their houses with useless crap. I mean you are defending a sci-fi Sims Online where it was more of a job than a game. Should I even bring up the fact that entire classes were incomplete at launch? I had some fun while playing this game, but claiming it was a gift from the Gods to the MMO genre is provably wrong. Stop living in denial SWG refugees.
SWG was a good game. In order to enjoy playing it you had to be intelligent and figure out how the bonuses from the various classes stacked. That was what made it good. Instead of having a single suite of abilities with some optional "specializations" that are only tweaks on abilities you already have, you actually had real flexibility in designing who your character was and how they operated. That is what we miss. Every other game out there specifically pigeon holes you into one class and that class develops as you go. In SWG you could master two elite professions or pick up specific skill trees from different professions to create your own unique character. Until the dark times, until the NGE lol. I have tried WoW, LOTRO, AoC, Everquest II, and WAR. None of those MMOs offer that level of character flexibility, and I haven't seen or heard of any others that do (and if anybody knows of any please let me know). I'm interested in SWTOR because Bioware tells great stories and I like Star Wars and KOTOR and KOTOR II.
Honestly, you're all bickering about the wrong things. Gameplay and mechanics will make or break this game not that fact that the cannon lore is skewed. This game will initially draw in many players but I seriously doubt they will retain any of the pre cu swg vets longer than a few months, and it will all boil down to being stuck in an iconic NGE-wow-type clone. Im sorry but theres way too much I see developing with this game that absolutely stinks of the NGE. I also see them trying to rip off more wow features as well. Yes they are trying to cater to the casual wow player. And yes it fkn sucks balls.. Jedi should be secret and un-lockable class.. ( something to play for) or I.E RETENTION... skills vs class system is a no brainer.. Skill systems own any and all class and level system for the simple fact you're not locked into any particular role thus giving the illusion of freedom and realism. Another thing not being locked into a class system did was remove the need for a second and third or fourth character slots... So no alts... no hiding your identity.. You were unique and your conduct in game would eventually be known to all who played alongside you.. This whole deal of multiple character slots and crap that wow and eq2 have forced unto us promotes griefing and underhanded gameplay which would be eliminated with the 1 character slot skill system. Yes I will play this game at launch but I have serious doubts it will retain my interest or my money much longer than 3-6 months. I liked the idea of gaining rifle experience by using a rifle, or gaining 1 handed swords experience by using 1 handed swords.. Why isn't there more mainstream, well known IP's developed into games like this.. ffs.. Dont give us the masterpiece that was the original SWG skill system, then this pos-hacked-up-wow version of bioware story driven dog $hit... I mean look at the frigging UI in tor.. I seriously puked in my mouth when I saw NGE written all over that ui.. What a waste of resources LA/bioware.. I never did like bioware sw games.. Too much story and crappy mechanics..
Look man, the people who are deeply interested in this game want it for the story. We're a little tired of "go out and kill X number of things." We enjoy having a plot motivating character actions. As for jedi not being immediately available this is happening 3000 years+ before when they were wiped out. Why wouldn't they be available. Far more so than at any other time, this is when the Jedi and Sith influence history. If what you want is no story and game mechanics I recommend chess, the mechanics are easy to learn, tricky to execute, and it assists with strategic thought and focus.
SWG was a good game. In order to enjoy playing it you had to be intelligent and figure out how the bonuses from the various classes stacked. That was what made it good. Instead of having a single suite of abilities with some optional "specializations" that are only tweaks on abilities you already have, you actually had real flexibility in designing who your character was and how they operated. That is what we miss. Every other game out there specifically pigeon holes you into one class and that class develops as you go. In SWG you could master two elite professions or pick up specific skill trees from different professions to create your own unique character. Until the dark times, until the NGE lol. I have tried WoW, LOTRO, AoC, Everquest II, and WAR. None of those MMOs offer that level of character flexibility, and I haven't seen or heard of any others that do (and if anybody knows of any please let me know). I'm interested in SWTOR because Bioware tells great stories and I like Star Wars and KOTOR and KOTOR II.
You did not address any of the points I made. You ignored everything I said up until the game not being good. Instead you offered your opinion about how you liked to group with other people who enjoyed the terrible game, and how you enjoyed the awful class balance. I've figured out why I hate SWG refugees so much THEY ALL ARGUE LIKE CREATIONISTS. Ignoring the facts and reason just covering their eyes and ears screaming "DOES NOT!!!"....
My word and world holds ground and is real Your word is like floods of poisoned water A language spoken with spit from different tongues More of my unwanted opinions
I thing that the Op and some poster fail to remember is that anyhting being done has to go thru george Lucas for approval. If he approves it, it cannon!.
(BBBBBBBBBWWWWWAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH raise plunger in salute to Star Wars!)
All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care. Playing: ESO, WOT, Smite, and Marvel Heroes
I am currious about this issue. I know in game that there will be light and dark points to gain, lose. If you are a Jedi Knight, but kill everyone and everything to turn to the dark side. Are you still on the light side? Or will you become a part of the dark side and fight against other Jedi? IF you are a Sith, can you do only good and turn to the light side and fight with them?
Neutral players as you put them. Can you as a player walk the line between light and dark and balance it out so you can help either side for profit? Enemy of both or friend to both could be possible?
It would be a great feature IMHO if the light and dark makes up who is your friend or enemy more than the class choice when you start the game. It would make your character more unique to you and alow for a more diverse population.
Story arc:
I see this playing out as two different games within the total game. What I mean is the story arc would difine your character as it levels as well as who you can group with. This would be like a quest chain that needs to be done before you can run the dungeon quest. Eveyone needs to be on the same chain. You may have to not run something with a friend because he wants to do it differently. The rest of the game would be the typical MMO open quests and grouping instances that have nothing to do with your story. You could do any of these quests with friends as much as you want.
You as a player would use the story to gain light and dark points as well as skills as you level. It will alow you to develope your own unique character through the story. The story created by Bioware will lead you to different planets that have much more than just your personal story arc. There will be a lot going on that you could help out with and group up for on any given planet.
This could give you the best of both worlds. You could play start to finish with your companion through the story arc. Never having to play with anyone else if you want. At the same time, you could branch out and play with a group full time. Only going back to your story when your friends arn't online or you just want to level and learn some new skills.
This game could obviously have a lot more than we have seen. We have only really seen what is different. That is the story arc that Bioware is so good at. But this will be an MMO. The worlds that they have shown with the amount of detail in the videos tell me that there will be much much more to each world than just the story arc. If they add in a fairly decent crafting system with open world harvesting and PvP. This could be one of the best MMO's ever. But right now it is just a good idea yet to be shown.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Comments
While the art style isn't going to make or break the game for me, I too have noticed an overwhelming similarity of the armor, weapons, and technology from the Old Republic period to the time frame from the movies. Perhaps though, the most interesting similarity is the symbol for the Sith "Empire" is the exact same symbol that the Galactic Empire used in the movies, and the republic symbol is the same as the Galactic Alliance symbol from the EU book series.
Thats usually what happens in sandbox games when content dries up.. And seriously, what content other than unlocking a jedi and doing pvp was there in SWG.. Hmm not too much only one of the best crafting systems ever designed... Space was added later.. A player economy driven completely by the crafters was pretty awesome stuff.. So they were losing subs... Is that any reason to change the mechanics of the combat system and class system? They lost subs for a completely different reason, and all signs point to a severe lack of quests and content in general. I can tell you never played the game seriously enough to see its faults and flaws.
Oh ya, lets not forget WoW and eq2 both came out in nov 2004.. Pretty much at the point swg subs started falling off.. And why did they fall off? NEw game engines, new worlds loaded with quests and content.. No other reason.. SWG combat and class system should have never been touched..
For the record i hated the star wars game The force unleached i refuse to play that stupid game and for many reasons .
So i completely agree here with the OP , am not worried about bioware with Tor i think they will please many of us and thousands will still play their mmo when it launches .
Go Bioware !
Last I checked those "idiots" are the Devs themselves. TOR isn't going with the classic Holy Trinity nor are they going with group fights where everyone gangs up on one enemy.
Yes, there's healing in the game, but they don't plan on having dedicated healings that just pump out heal after heal after heal.
Yes, there's people taking damage in the game, but they don't plan on having one person grab all of the "aggro."
Everyone does damage (even the Consular uses melee attacks).
You can have group fights and teamwork matter and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that you must go with that is what is truly idiotic. The Trinity mechanic is probably one of the most immersion-breaking dynamics in MMOs out there right now.
Oh, and you can still have classes with different weaknesses and strengths and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that "class roles" or "class specialities" is the same as the Holy Trinity is another peculiar plague that has been inflicted upon a lot of people in the MMO community.
As for this article...I don't find it very compelling. The Jedi had a Lightsaber combat style based on using two weapons. I DO feel it is nit-picking to discriminate between using two weapons and using a double-ended lightsaber, and I'm a massive Star Wars nerd.
Also, as others pointed out, it seems poorly researched. Consulars and Inquisitors are NOT wizards. They don't sit back and cast spells. As people who have played them at events have noted, if you do that, you hurt yourself. A Consular is going to be up front attacking with their lightsaber like a Knight. The big difference is that the Knight has a lot of lightsaber abilities and the Consular has a lot of force abilities (and from what I hear this makes the playstyle quite different).
I really think this is not going to be an MMO as we are familiar with. In fact most of premium games coming out anymore are drifting away from the standard MMORPG layout. There was an article just written about STO about this.
With SWTOR, I think we will see something more of a MassEffect co-op game with a ton of content. There will have to be a ton of content to make a story driven game with a monthly sub. For what is the point of a monthly sub if you run out of content after 3 weeks? At least this is what I am hoping. Enough content to keep people interested for 6+months. That requires a huge starting game world, and a constant dedication to expanding it.
I certainly would not mind if it were a single player/ small co-op game Mass Effect style. Hell, I wish Mass Effect 2 had enough content to keep me playing forever, and I would be happy to pay a sub fee for that. Especially if there were a MP aspect to it.
As far as the nitpicking for geeks... It is a Star Wars game... by Bioware. Be happy.
Last I checked those "idiots" are the Devs themselves. TOR isn't going with the classic Holy Trinity nor are they going with group fights where everyone gangs up on one enemy.
Yes, there's healing in the game, but they don't plan on having dedicated healings that just pump out heal after heal after heal.
Yes, there's people taking damage in the game, but they don't plan on having one person grab all of the "aggro."
Everyone does damage (even the Consular uses melee attacks).
You can have group fights and teamwork matter and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that you must go with that is what is truly idiotic. The Trinity mechanic is probably one of the most immersion-breaking dynamics in MMOs out there right now.
Oh, and you can still have classes with different weaknesses and strengths and NOT have the Holy Trinity. The idea that "class roles" or "class specialities" is the same as the Holy Trinity is another peculiar plague that has been inflicted upon a lot of people in the MMO community.
I don't see how you can't have the Trinity unless you take the focus off of healing and put it almost completely in crowd control. That or make it way too easy. There is a reason the trinity class system is in place for multiplayer games. It is the only way to really balance group combat and give people roles.
You say it is idiotic, immersion-breaking but you offer no alternative. So what is your grand plan to redefine the genre?
And this is why I say HT is the most damaging thing in MMOs. Despite the fact HT didn't exist before Everquest, you somehow think it is essential for multi-player games. There are literally dozens of alternatives from other computer games, board games, pen and paper role-playing games, and so forth. Many of those of multi-player.
If you want me to rattle off a few, then I'll do that. Battlemech, D&D (no version is HT), and Guild Wars are 3 different systems, and none are "too easy." They are just the tip of the iceberg.
The ONLY reason HT is used so much is because of Everquest was successful and used it, then WoW copied them (though they simplified things a bit) and has been crazy-successful. Almost everyone else has been trying to copy them. Oh, here's a 4th example of something that isn't HT: WoW PvP, though I guess that fits your based "almost completely on crowd control" line, though, imho, there's a lot more to it than that.
lolwut.
DnD is not an MMO (unless you count DDO, which has a trinity system). Battlemech also isn't an MMO. Guild Wars has trinity. WoW PVP is trinity minus taunts.
So in short you just destroyed your own point. That happen often?
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And this is why I say HT is the most damaging thing in MMOs. Despite the fact HT didn't exist before Everquest, you somehow think it is essential for multi-player games. There are literally dozens of alternatives from other computer games, board games, pen and paper role-playing games, and so forth. Many of those of multi-player.
If you want me to rattle off a few, then I'll do that. Battlemech, D&D (no version is HT), and Guild Wars are 3 different systems, and none are "too easy." They are just the tip of the iceberg.
The ONLY reason HT is used so much is because of Everquest was successful and used it, then WoW copied them (though they simplified things a bit) and has been crazy-successful. Almost everyone else has been trying to copy them. Oh, here's a 4th example of something that isn't HT: WoW PvP, though I guess that fits your based "almost completely on crowd control" line, though, imho, there's a lot more to it than that.
lolwut.
DnD is not an MMO (unless you count DDO, which has a trinity system). Battlemech also isn't an MMO. Guild Wars has trinity.
So in short you just destroyed your own point. That happen often?
How does that destroy my point? What does an MMO combat system need? It needs a way for a group of people to be challenged. Every system I mentioned does that, and the same thing could be translated (and has been translated in the past) over to computer games. There's no reason they couldn't form the basis of an MMO combat system. That's my point.
Apparently you think that when I was citing combat systems that could be used in an MMO I should restrict myself to the HT-saturated MMO market? Is innovation or even outright copying a (non-mmo) system is impossible to you?
Maybe you should actually read the discussion and make a constructive post instead of failing at trying to make people look stupid.
You SWG refugees are a delusional bunch. Played on Corbantis(iirc) for the first six months as a carbineer(sure loved killing myself because of the retarded HAM bar...) and only stuck around so long because I was a SW fanboy. From the onset the class balance, lack of content, and combat were terrible. Why would you force somebody to either sit in front of a dancing idiot or find another player to allow you to go back to hunting? That was a dreadfully awful idea. Crafter based economy where prices got out of control much like they are currently in Eve. I suppose that's a one of the major flaws of those types of systems. Run to this spot on the map, kill the spawned mobs, and return or take the role of a UPS employee were about the only missions I ended up suffering through.
I'm so sick of you guys pretending it was such a fantastic game. There were some good aspects but overall it was bad, and people need to drop the "Old Girlfriend Syndrome". I can't believe so many people enjoyed spending their time trying to fill their houses with useless crap. I mean you are defending a sci-fi Sims Online where it was more of a job than a game. Should I even bring up the fact that entire classes were incomplete at launch? I had some fun while playing this game, but claiming it was a gift from the Gods to the MMO genre is provably wrong. Stop living in denial SWG refugees.
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Some people need to remove the blinders and look at what is available in the genre. The Holy Trinity method is just one of the many ways MMO's have achieved success. Neither UO nor AC1 had the holy trinity, nor does Eve with a more modern approach. Classes and HT are just lazy developers trying to get a product to market fast, it has nothing to do with building a good MMO.
If you can't remove the blinders and see this than I really feel quite sorry for you.
No, I just don't think you should cite MMOs that have trinity as examples of MMOs that's done have trinity. Makes you look like you enjoy the shrooms more than intelligent debate.
I was not trying to make you look stupid. I was pointing out you made yourself look stupid by citing MMOs that have trinity as examples for non-trinity systems.
Frankly, even if it were my intent to make you look stupid, I freely admit I could not have topped you.
EVE Online is nothing like WoW or even TOR. It's just unrealstic to expect TOR to follow it's systems when it's a game about player characters and not spaceships.
UO and AC1 were financial misteps, why would any sane developer try to copy them?
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You're talking to people who don't want a game that has a massive population. They want a niche game and feel that people who prefer the tried and true method from a group that has yet to release an mmo are automatically children. These same goofballs would rather see a company take a multi-million dollar gamble instead of playing it safe the first time around.
My word and world holds ground and is real
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The author is putting is own personal biases on a universe that Bioware essentially created. It may be Star Wars, but Bioware created the Old Republic for KOTOR, KOTOR II, and this game.
Who cares that certain classes are depicted wielding double bladed lightsabers? And who came up with that "double bladed lightsabers are difficult to wield and frowned upon by the Jedi Council" hogwash anyway? As far as I know Bioware never included that crap in the Old Republic universe they created (in fact, I seem to recall one Bastila Shan wielding a double bladed lightsaber.) Who cares if the Sith Warrior class looks like Vader? Obviously they were going for warriors using Vader as a template and Sith Inquisitors using the Emperor as a template. Who cares what the speederbike looks like? What a dumb thing to nitpick.
I would bet money that what Bioware does with this IP will surpass what George himself has done since return of the jedi.Im playing mass effect 2 right now and these guys are dead set geniuses. the story and the detail and the plausability is so frakking awesome Im probably more a fan of mass effect lore now than Starwars. Which is a pretty big statement given that I love starwars a great deal. I was one of those fans that was majorly burned by the crappiness of the episodes so I guess I'm in the camp that thinks a company like Bioware couldnt do anything worse than has already been done by the abusive father of the franchise.
If you dont count actually creating the saga, george lucas was the worst thing that happened to star wars. Like the previous poster, I agree that bioware has done more for it than lucas has. Of course, short of creating the franchise in the first place.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
No, I just don't think you should cite MMOs that have trinity as examples of MMOs that's done have trinity. Makes you look like you enjoy the shrooms more than intelligent debate.
What are you talking about? You mean when I mentioned WoW PvP? Last I checked there is no Tank Role there, so that aspect of the game does indeed have no HT system. You don't have a trinity if "tanks" can't hold aggro or otherwise redirect damage to themselves.
Maybe you should actually read the discussion and make a constructive post instead of failing at trying to make people look stupid.
I was not trying to make you look stupid. I was pointing out you made yourself look stupid by citing MMOs that have trinity as examples for non-trinity systems.
Frankly, even if it were my intent to make you look stupid, I freely admit I could not have topped you.
I was citing combat systems that are in games other than MMOs, by and large. At best I mentioned two MMOs. Guild Wars, which doesn't have HT and WoW (in which PvP doesn't have HT). Frankly, it is quite laughable you think GW has HT. Though, given that you think WoW PvP has it, I imagine you don't actually know what the Holy Trinity is.
Tanks are currently useless in WoW's PVP because you don't have to deal with them if there was collision detection they'd have a much greater role.Save vanilla PVP teams in WSG that had the guys in AQ40 gear run the flags(soooo fun). I do recall the prot warrior and even the prot paladin being popular in arena at times, but even then the concept is still there somebody takes the damage while somebody is healing. Guild wars I can't speak for.
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Amen, and god knows I'm not very fond of many BioWare choices for TOR.
Thats usually what happens in sandbox games when content dries up.. And seriously, what content other than unlocking a jedi and doing pvp was there in SWG.. Hmm not too much only one of the best crafting systems ever designed... Space was added later.. A player economy driven completely by the crafters was pretty awesome stuff.. So they were losing subs... Is that any reason to change the mechanics of the combat system and class system? They lost subs for a completely different reason, and all signs point to a severe lack of quests and content in general. I can tell you never played the game seriously enough to see its faults and flaws.
Oh ya, lets not forget WoW and eq2 both came out in nov 2004.. Pretty much at the point swg subs started falling off.. And why did they fall off? NEw game engines, new worlds loaded with quests and content.. No other reason.. SWG combat and class system should have never been touched..
You SWG refugees are a delusional bunch. Played on Corbantis(iirc) for the first six months as a carbineer(sure loved killing myself because of the retarded HAM bar...) and only stuck around so long because I was a SW fanboy. From the onset the class balance, lack of content, and combat were terrible. Why would you force somebody to either sit in front of a dancing idiot or find another player to allow you to go back to hunting? That was a dreadfully awful idea. Crafter based economy where prices got out of control much like they are currently in Eve. I suppose that's a one of the major flaws of those types of systems. Run to this spot on the map, kill the spawned mobs, and return or take the role of a UPS employee were about the only missions I ended up suffering through.
I'm so sick of you guys pretending it was such a fantastic game. There were some good aspects but overall it was bad, and people need to drop the "Old Girlfriend Syndrome". I can't believe so many people enjoyed spending their time trying to fill their houses with useless crap. I mean you are defending a sci-fi Sims Online where it was more of a job than a game. Should I even bring up the fact that entire classes were incomplete at launch? I had some fun while playing this game, but claiming it was a gift from the Gods to the MMO genre is provably wrong. Stop living in denial SWG refugees.
SWG was a good game. In order to enjoy playing it you had to be intelligent and figure out how the bonuses from the various classes stacked. That was what made it good. Instead of having a single suite of abilities with some optional "specializations" that are only tweaks on abilities you already have, you actually had real flexibility in designing who your character was and how they operated. That is what we miss. Every other game out there specifically pigeon holes you into one class and that class develops as you go. In SWG you could master two elite professions or pick up specific skill trees from different professions to create your own unique character. Until the dark times, until the NGE lol. I have tried WoW, LOTRO, AoC, Everquest II, and WAR. None of those MMOs offer that level of character flexibility, and I haven't seen or heard of any others that do (and if anybody knows of any please let me know). I'm interested in SWTOR because Bioware tells great stories and I like Star Wars and KOTOR and KOTOR II.
Look man, the people who are deeply interested in this game want it for the story. We're a little tired of "go out and kill X number of things." We enjoy having a plot motivating character actions. As for jedi not being immediately available this is happening 3000 years+ before when they were wiped out. Why wouldn't they be available. Far more so than at any other time, this is when the Jedi and Sith influence history. If what you want is no story and game mechanics I recommend chess, the mechanics are easy to learn, tricky to execute, and it assists with strategic thought and focus.
You did not address any of the points I made. You ignored everything I said up until the game not being good. Instead you offered your opinion about how you liked to group with other people who enjoyed the terrible game, and how you enjoyed the awful class balance. I've figured out why I hate SWG refugees so much THEY ALL ARGUE LIKE CREATIONISTS. Ignoring the facts and reason just covering their eyes and ears screaming "DOES NOT!!!"....
My word and world holds ground and is real
Your word is like floods of poisoned water
A language spoken with spit from different tongues
More of my unwanted opinions
I thing that the Op and some poster fail to remember is that anyhting being done has to go thru george Lucas for approval. If he approves it, it cannon!.
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All my opinions are just that..opinions. If you like my opinions..coolness.If you dont like my opinion....I really dont care.
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RvR:
I am currious about this issue. I know in game that there will be light and dark points to gain, lose. If you are a Jedi Knight, but kill everyone and everything to turn to the dark side. Are you still on the light side? Or will you become a part of the dark side and fight against other Jedi? IF you are a Sith, can you do only good and turn to the light side and fight with them?
Neutral players as you put them. Can you as a player walk the line between light and dark and balance it out so you can help either side for profit? Enemy of both or friend to both could be possible?
It would be a great feature IMHO if the light and dark makes up who is your friend or enemy more than the class choice when you start the game. It would make your character more unique to you and alow for a more diverse population.
Story arc:
I see this playing out as two different games within the total game. What I mean is the story arc would difine your character as it levels as well as who you can group with. This would be like a quest chain that needs to be done before you can run the dungeon quest. Eveyone needs to be on the same chain. You may have to not run something with a friend because he wants to do it differently. The rest of the game would be the typical MMO open quests and grouping instances that have nothing to do with your story. You could do any of these quests with friends as much as you want.
You as a player would use the story to gain light and dark points as well as skills as you level. It will alow you to develope your own unique character through the story. The story created by Bioware will lead you to different planets that have much more than just your personal story arc. There will be a lot going on that you could help out with and group up for on any given planet.
This could give you the best of both worlds. You could play start to finish with your companion through the story arc. Never having to play with anyone else if you want. At the same time, you could branch out and play with a group full time. Only going back to your story when your friends arn't online or you just want to level and learn some new skills.
This game could obviously have a lot more than we have seen. We have only really seen what is different. That is the story arc that Bioware is so good at. But this will be an MMO. The worlds that they have shown with the amount of detail in the videos tell me that there will be much much more to each world than just the story arc. If they add in a fairly decent crafting system with open world harvesting and PvP. This could be one of the best MMO's ever. But right now it is just a good idea yet to be shown.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore