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How much magical loot do you need to enjoy a fantasy RPG?
Amathe
Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
Háleth: "The men are saying that we will not live out the night. They say that it is hopeless."
[Aragorn stands up and swings the sword.]
Aragorn: "This is a good sword, Háleth, son of Háma. There is always hope."
As a former WoW player, I have to admit that I was never content with my gear. I could win a flaming, 4 foot sword with tons of attributes and stat boosts, and 10 minutes later I was on the armory looking up what would be better so that I could start pursuing a new one. Sad, I admit it, but I am sure I am not alone in my guilt.
Loot and fantasy RPGs have a long and storied relationship. Back in the day when I played pen and paper D&D I would always get excited about what treasure awaited my character in the next module. Even in Lord of the Rings (the books), where magical items were relatively uncommon, Frodo had Sting and a mithril shirt.
But how much loot is too much? At what point does an insatiable need for better loot, and a constant supply of new magical items to meet that need, take away from fantasy gameplay immersion and reduce it to something more like a swarm of grasping hands at the base of a fractured piñata?
A lot of us don't even read the quest text anymore - just the part that says what we will get if we do it. We suffer through long, repetitive and tedious raids, many times in the company of people we don't enjoy, because we want items. More and more I feel like I am being encouraged by game mechanics to do things I really don't like, because there is no reward for doing the things I do like.
Could you enjoy a fantasy RPG if magical items were very, very rare? Could you be content using the same basic sword for many months, with the difference in its power being simply that you got better at wielding it rather than it shooting lightening bolts at your enemies? Would it be more interesting if your weapon became more powerful as you performed heroic deeds with it, so that it became a family hierloom and something you would always want at your side?
Or has the acquisition of loot, and the ability to use one's possessions as a measure and testament to in game success and status, become so much a part of mmorpg culture that reducing it would take away people's interest in the games entirely?
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Comments
I'd rather have the ability to modify a weapon of preference to kingdom come than have to constantly upgrade.
It would feel more personal to me if I could collect things, create new parts, and allow a weapon to improve in stats and aesthetics alongside my character. It would also allow for the same kinda junk farming and, quest item rewards, etc that they force upon you to get all those other forgettable pieces of gear, if one wanted to change no other aspect...
Guess that's something to look forward to in Fable 3 at least.
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I would enjoy a good game even if magical loot would be very rare, in fact I would enjoy it more. AoC messed this up, Conan himself hated magical stuff and would threw it away if he know it had anything to do with magic.
Low fantasy should have very little or no magic at all in them. In Tolkiens books are there magic but it is not that common and sometimes do the items have bad effects too.
As for items can you actually do 2 extremes:
You could do a game where all items are the same standard junk with different appearance, and you would then have to make character progression a lot more advanced and fun. Maybe you can capture skills like in Guildwars and speccing would mean a lot more. Would work wonderful with PvP games as for PvE games you would need to have something that makes the player want to go up against the hardest mobs in the game. Guildwars basicly have this system.
On the other hand could you skip experience and levels and just use items and achievement instead. the later would be to get access to places and possibly to lock up more slots for items. While some people probably would think this sounds a lot like a FPS it would work. Skills would be scrolls that you put in your skill slots (class or race based or general).
Both those are of course extremes but both would work fine.
It is possible to make a fantasy game without magic also, there are fantasy books like that, or you could make the game historically accurate instead (Brittain during the dark ages would be fun, with Saxons, celts, vikings, normans and so on).
Any P&P GM can tell you that if you drop too much magical stuff to your players it will make the game more boring. It shouldn't be impossible to get a magical item either but you should need luck and have to work hard for it.
Personally, I hate gear progression. The whole idea of having to get in a PuG with some rude people hoping to win a roll just so I can get one item and then if I don't I have to do it agin sucks. I dislike this more then you know. Many players might love gear progression like it is in WoW for example, but not me. It just makes me feel like I am paying to be harassed, not only by a game but by elitists who love to scold casuals like me.
The weapon adjusting to different situations like you said would be amazing. Espcially if it glowed some unique color in the rain and gained a rare ability only while its raiining. Or if it glowed brightly and added to you a new special attack ability with only that weapon as long as you had it. Little things can really make all the difference in any game.
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Same here. UO and AC are great for that. EVE, too, in that I can pick a ship I like and modify it with different fittings to suit the task at hand. Not only is the item more personal, but in those games 'junk loot' serves a purpose even if it's just to smelt/refine it down to resources I can use to customize or upgrade my existing gear.
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I'm not a fan of the constant magical loot that drops. To me the constant barrage of magical items cheapens their value. I prefer games where the magical items are truly magical and RARE. If you had one you worked hard for it and it actually means something. When others see you they can tell that you managed to attain something a good portion of the community did not and it sets you a part. It makes it special, unique, distinguishable.
When I played WoW there are times I passed on loot and gave it to others because they seemed more enthusiastic about it then I did and I figured they'd get more gratification out of it then I did. My guildies were usually more geared then I simply because I gave it to them rather then taking it for myself simply because I just didn't feel it was all that much more special then the crap I was wearing.
If you ask me, the games need to make rare items actually RARE again. It's not rare if Tom, Dick, and Harry have it, along with every other Joe public. I think it loses meaning.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Honestly, I just want items that look cool. Since you mentioned WoW, there are quite a few good looking armors/weapons that look friggin' sweet, but they're lower leveled and are easily replaced. If you could upgrade those weapons to be on par with end-game items, somehow, that'd be just fine.
To the OP,WOW does that with loot,it creates tons of instances all offering a new carrot to chase,Blizzard treats it's players like wolves in a pack,coming back for more.Everyone ALWAYS says FUN is why they play,the truth is LOOT,and the REASON they enter instances is for that loot.Take away loot ,nobody plays instances,and they probably all quit WOW the first day they login.
You play a game like FFXI,loot is VERY limited,you would have to camp one boss for days on end and still probably not get your drop,as drops are usually a 15% or less chance to drop,very few are 100%.Mobs drop VERY little currency[gil]and usually useless weapons/armor,the good drops are pretty much limited to the bosses witch can spawn anywhere from once every two hours to once every two weeks.Upgrades in the game are few,you use the same gear for many levels,the object is to play for fun,not chase some carrot on a stick.
I know MANY players like to have the option to add stats or imbue their weapons,the best idea for this i saw in ROM,the only good thing about the game.The problem is that was a game designed around an item mall,if it were designed properly into a P2P game,it would be a good idea.There is one VERY large drawback to that system however,and that is a developer is not going to allow you to break the game,so they will make mobs according to your maxed out gear stats.What this means is that unless you have all your gear maxed out,you will have very little chance to succeed in the game,so rather than being a sideshow for fun,it becomes a MUST,everyone will just be the exact same cookie cutter clone anyhow,so it defeats the purpose.
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I am drunk, so I apologize in advance for the spelling errors.
MMO's have come to me, to mean gear progression, and while I might gain a surge of satisfaction in a general OCD style when gaining gear, but when looking back it annoys me. I remember playing Baldur's Gate (1, or 2) and loving every minute of shitty gear. Also loving every minute of getting that INSANELY long next level and gaining a slight boost to my katana skill.
I find it odd that gaining power in an MMORPG essentially requires me to gain either massive amounts of levels or gear. DnD never even had large levels, or gear that exceeded +3 normally, but regardless, EVERY change you made FELT like a giant improvement. "YES, I just gained a ONE point damage boost". Games nowadays seem to emphasize quantity over quality, even when it switches from game quality to game quantity. Instead of gear being a "WHEW I just managed to beat that boss with My Swingin gear" It switches to "Man, we downed that boss with 20 minutes to spare!!"
I don't know, but I guess what I'm saying is loot never meant as much as skill (even if it was player skill, or level gained skill) but it felt more important than gear gained skill to me.
Of course. I usually never have anything considered epic or rare.
I always get decent equipment but I am never driven to search for the best of the best equipment in games. Chasing those items seems to be somewhat antithetical to my play style.
I usually end up buying the best crafted equipment but I have never, ever, had an item that dropped from an uber raid encounter.
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Maybe there should be a way to reforge an old armor or sword? Have a crafter replace the blade for you and it should add some effects and damage? Same thing with armor and clothes. In Jewelry you should be able to replace the gems, changing the color a little but you can still keep the thing.
It was common in historical times to replace the blade on a sword or the handle of an axe, the weapon would still look almost the same (and weapons should be named, here in scandinavia were all good swords named).
I personally think that weapons should be like an armor and have several pieces. A sword should have a hilt, handle and blade, those should be customized in looks and effects. If you get a piece of mithril you get a crafter to make you a new blade for your sword in it, you just don't toss the rest of the sword away.
In all cultures over the world are certain weapons famous and used by certain heroes. Arthur wouldn't throw away Caliburn just because he got a new loot, Roland kept his durandal, Scatha had her Gae bolga and so on.
Why do my hero have to threw away his crappy sword every 5 levels or so. Half of this problem is because of the levelsystem in modern MMO, we need Runequest online fast.
As an *outside/has nothing to do with the original post or purpose respone* I have got to agree with Wizardry. It has always bother me that everything has been split up into classes of loot (swords, axes) rather than pieces (ie, hilts, blades).
I much prefer 'magical loot' to not come into play until the latter 10% of character progression, if at all.
I don't particularly know why, but the very idea of magical objects irritates me. I suppose that I like to think of magic as ephemeral and fleeting, unable to be bound to anything or made solid in any way, only to affect what is. Such that magic may be used to improve an object, yet the object not made in some way 'magical' itself.
Such is my preference.
Loot has a very low % of drop chance in Aion. When I was playing this people constantly complained about doing something for no reward. I think they forgot they were meant to be having fun playing.
I understand the need to see a return from investment in me. It is a hard balance to make.
I would like to see more development of weapons or armor is games. Upgrading and enhancing an item you have made with powerful artifacts that are found around the world or on mobs.
Lol, "When there's lightning - it always brings me down
Cause it's free and I see that it's me
Who's lost and never found
Feel the magic -feel it dancing in the air
But it's fear - and you'll hear
It calling you beware"
But I agree, it would make more sense if the good stuff were mastercrafted and you need a mage or priest to enchant/bless it every 5 minutes or so. A permanent magical weapon should be rare, hard to craft and either drop rarely or not at all.
But I like the idea of Wards that RIFTS and Palladium uses, the diabolist from that game would make a cool enchanter crafter for a normal MMO. Those are very different from the average magical things you find in Wow or EQ, and Diabolist can only have so many wards up and I needed to kill a dam dragon to get the bone to make one of my wards permanent (we sprayed him with uranium shells from our handguns and then had an attack plane make a missile strike on the place he sat to get those shells out).
Wards would however be more of a crafting thing than something that drops, and most of them aren't permanent but one use only.
I think it is more fun to have your character progress and customize him/her than to get loot. Most modern games only focus on adding more loot, the difference between a ranger and another one is small in most MMOs. There is an optimal spec and you can't choose your skills, feats or change your attributes making everyone copies of each other with different gear.
I think it is more fun to have your character progress and customize him/her than to get loot. Most modern games only focus on adding more loot, the difference between a ranger and another one is small in most MMOs. There is an optimal spec and you can't choose your skills, feats or change your attributes making everyone copies of each other with different gear.
I think we are agreeing in different ways.
One thing that turned me off WoW was that everyone was walking round looking identical with the same spec with the same enchants.
I think I started using non standard enchants and setups just to add some interest in the end.
Gear progression is fun. The pinata's gonna distribute some form of candy when it bursts, and discrete unique items are one proven method.
Other forms of candy could work, in which case a game could have semi-static loot. But you need some form of compelling candy inside that pinata, even if it's just "I get to watch a fancy cutscene when I win." or "Man that was a fun dungeon to tackle." Without a properly balanced effort->reward system, games fall flat quickly because they start to question whether their time investment was worth it.
Even action games like God of War reward you for killing the pinatas (which explode into colored wisps in addition to an excellent death animation.)
The tricky part comes when you realize that loot systems can easily be layered on top of any type of game, which means the only reason it might not make a game more enjoyable is if that extra system "noise" makes the game too complicated overall (because players can only handle so many systems simultaneously in a game...the reason games are fun is pattern discovery, but if there's too much noise going on the pattern is lost and undecipherable, and therefore less fun.)
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There are far far far too many magical items in all these fantasy wow grinders. People seem to like the items game so don't blame the developers for it. Players keep funding games that have this type of loot/item system so they must prefer it over a system that makes more logical sense.
Personally I'd like to see magic and the use of magic be something far far more rare.
I think the concept of progression has taken too much of a centre stage in modern mmos. Directly related to the sense of progression is the collection of e-items the devs had made. items=progression and the questing systems are the two worst concepts to come out of the EQ/WoW fantasy grinder genre.
L2 for the first couple of years was almost zero drop rates for high end loot. Of course when you first started out you would occasionally find a 'wooden helmet' or 'newbie staff' but overall the good drops were extremely rare. Even the drop rates on higher end crafting mats were rare.Once I found (or bought) enough mats to make my new A/B/C/S class stuff, I was more or less with it for weeks (or months) to come.
I enjoyed it.
I still play and enjoy WoW, but have forgone the tedious loot treadmill long ago. I still enjoy getting treasures and will seek them out from time to time, but I no longer allow my gear to define me or what I do in the game. I know you need certain gear to do certain content, and it upsets me that I may never get to experience some of that, but that's really only a very small fraction of the game to me. There is plenty to do, and keep me busy. I have my friends and family who also play, and that, to me, is so much more important than any new shiny epic gear.
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I think your question is marred by the example you give.
WoW is a loot treadmill. That's entirely what the game was, moreso what it has become. It teaches a mindset of 'more loot!'.
Consider a game that is focused on content completion. Rewards, advancement and focus is about completion of tasks or goals. Immediately the carrot being something else will make it seem like new insatiable thing.
I don't need but a full suit of gear to do my adventuring. I'd rather prefer the low turnover, much like classic WoW since you use it as an example. 1 new piece of gear a month is just about right. It has direct correlation to about how often I need to replace some article of clothing in real life come to think of it.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Yeah I have to say, If Magical items and gear was rarer and truly a special item to receive then I'd enjoy the game a lot more. I honestly think magical and rare gear and items should be a way of adding more and more story and depth to games not just "oh and another weapon, time to throw yesterdays in the dust pile". A magical or rare weapon, in my opinion, should be something you don't want to replace, it's something you had to work hard to achieve and it's unique to you. The whole idea of a heirloom weapon sounds great. Even ancient weapons of past heroes, which you improve as you go along your own heroic adventure, making weapons unique for everyone would be an enticing play idea.
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that's how they keep people playing. they want to be the best so they spam dungeons. if they made the new best set of armor that just had 1 more defense, i bet everybody would try to get it just so they can say "i have the best gear". i guess its just human nature to want to be the best. i used to grind for hours on my favorite MMO trying to get high enough to run dungeons for good gear. i didn't really mind it, since i new the rewards i could get once it was all over. but at some point, you realize, enough is enough.
I guess none of you will be playing Diablo 3 when it comes out then. It's most likely going to be entirely loot driven just like it's predecessors. Although not a MMO it still has that dreaded ohmygosh! gear progression.
I like loot and lots of it. It gives the game another goal to strive for which in term keeps me playing.
I tried a game with no loot. It was City of Heroes. It kept my attention for exactly 3 weeks. The shortest amount of time I have ever played a MMORPG and it was for that reason alone i quit playing.
Me too! I'll be playing. I love loot!