I strongly believe that World of Warcraft killed the MMO legacy. I find it hard to accept that anyone would disagree with this. Anyone being someone who's played MMO games before WoW launched.
Well, I suppose I'll disagree.
What wow did was open the mmo genre up to non mmo players. I'm not sure that the first mmo/mud players were the most run of the mill average people you've ever met.
Of those I've met they were all a bit geeky, introverted, exceptionally bright but more of the computer nerd/D&D variety of people. It sort of made sense that their sense of wonderment about this new type of entertaiment coupled with a social element as well as computers would drive them toward online games.
People who play now are probably more average video game players if not new players to video games.
WoW opened up the genre. This happens with all sort of genres.
My Aunt who was a Torch Singer said to me that Rock ruined music. Completely polluted the musical scene.
Would you agree?
Probably not.
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I wouldn't say Wow itself ruined the genre. More all the bastards called shareholders, investors which found a place in a genre, were they argueable DON'T belong. I agree that Wow brought a good bunch of people that shouldn't play MMORPG's because MMORPG's aren't for them. MMORPG's were never ever meant to go mainstream so it was a nice niche genre for people dedicated to social elements and having a good time with others.
The combination of Wow, shareholders, investors and of course lame players brought up the dark age of MMORPG's and its still not over. As much as I love Everquest sometimes I wish would have never been created just to avoid the release of Wow and its so called "community". Since my earliest MMORPGdays I've always met people I didn't like but never ever as much as I did in WoW. The game itself really can't be called a mmorpg any longer its more a MMO without anything special.
Don't get me wrong the game HAD its funny times during Vanilla, BC but I always felt that it really isn't something special and lacking lots of the great features UO, EQ 1 and even Daoc had. The Fail Of The Lichking is just a proof that Blizzard has lost it completely.
as far as numbers go just do the simple maths:
China 6 million subs wow had 11,5 - 6 = 5,5 so I say it MIGHT be around 5 - 4,5 right now
We gonna see some huge changes in the future because as we all know copying isn't doing the trick. And thats my hope
Split the genre into MMO and MMORPG. MMORPG's for the real gamer with passion and MMO for people that think doing the same incredible braindead instances over and over is fun. So both sides should be happy!
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
WoW did not destroy ant legacy. A legacy is how one changes his destiny. Companies DO NOT have to follow in Blizzards footsteps. It is not Blizzards fault that other companies are COUGHT UP in numbers instead of focusing on new and original ideas. A legacy is not always the same as the last, nor is it any better or worse in different situations. Like every major power the world has known, they have broken down, and vanished. Then a new power will rise, but not at the same time, and not with the same concepts.
MMORPG's were never ever meant to go mainstream so it was a nice niche genre for people dedicated to social elements and having a good time with others.
According to who exactly? Game developers want as many people as possible to enjoy their games. Saying MMOs were never meant to be mainstream is really no different than saying PC games were never meant to be mainstream. What's your reasoning? Seems kinda like a pissed off fan of a band that once was obscure that has found fame and suddenly they have millions of other fans.
Also, many of you people still don't know what legacy means.
You can't play WoW in China, huh? I'll fetch my tinfoil hat then as I play in China, every single day.
WoW bashing for WoW bashing's sake is what the main thrust of this thread feels like.
Every game ever paid for by investors was made to try and make a profit.
WoW exceeded Blizzard's expectations for subscriptions - they thought they might get 500K subscribers originally. And like it or not 11.5 million subscribers (putting aside ludicrous conspiracy theories after all Cataclysm is being written with bringing in new subscribers as the main objective - which is a straight admission of struggling to attract and retain any more players) like the game for what it is.
WoW runs on any machine, great that's a superbly sensible thing to do. Why should anyone be forced to hand out thousands for extra hardware to play a game? You want to know why PC keeps getting beaten up by console? Because you don't have to buy a new Xbox every time you want to play a new release.
WoW is a theme park game? So what? 11.5 million people like that theme park. Eve is a popular sandbox game and 0.5 million people like that. Both make money for their devs too.
WoW has spoiled MMOs forever? Not really, it has certainly inspired a legion of not terribly significant clones but so does every success, sooner or later someone will get smart and work on a great game which incorporates something WoW doesn't have, creativity is normally spurred by strong competition not lack of it.
MMO's were simply built to be massive multiplayer online, RPG's were for role-playing, WoW allows both and it's fun, it may not be the most challenging experience in the world, but it is constantly fresh and there's always something you haven't seen.
If you want to talk about the game's faults, which are legion, please do so but refrain from the toys out of the pram, "the scene doesn't bow before me" type stuff, it's not adding anything useful.
Blaming WoW is really just shooting the messenger. MMO gaming in a persistent environment was always going to hit the mainstream at some point regardless. The freakish success of WoW is fairly clear evidence that the dam was waiting to burst.
I'm not convinced the 'MMO legacy' is dead anyway. There are still plenty of gamers who want MMORPGs with more traditional values. They may represent only a fraction of WoW's subscription numbers but it is still a relatively untapped market that is just getting lost in the mix at the moment. It seems to me that the term MMORPG has been somewhat hijacked to describe any MMO game. Perhaps in a few years we will see games more accurately classified as MMOFPSs, MMOGs and MMORPGs and then we can all retreat to our own particular niches and be happy.
I am playing it again after 3 years and im having a blast.
in this 3 years I played a lot of p2p and f2p games, most of the p2p felt unfinished and empty and when im playing f2p (ALL of them got shit graphics) i felt like I got scammed everytime i logged in.
well most of the people who play WoW dont creep in forums and complain about "how bad WoW is" and so on.
Blizzard made their game. And they made it good. The truth is until today there is no other developer to offer such quality in a game. I don't try to defend Blizzard. Give me a better game and I will love it as I did with WoW.
Who keeps game devs company's to make a good game or better that WoW with out copy&paste it?
QFT. Pretty much all that needs to be said in this thread.
ONLY thing that made WoW so big is blizzard, ONLY reason WoW made MMOs mainstream is they already had a huge fan base of the well known company with some really solid titles....and the press giving loads of free advertise since it been quite a sensation millions of ppl would be "dumb" enough to pay 15$/month for a product they already bought once.
heck I know ppl who thought WoW were the first MMO.
I dont agree with the OP of beating at WoW but do really not like MMOs became mainstream, since mainstream want action....not virtual worlds. and no virtual world doesnt mean ppl want to live online, it means they are into MMORPGs.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. WoW was not the first mainstream MMORPG. EQ if you remember got much press as well as an ad on TV Guide I believe it was. The reason why it didn't take off the way WoW did, is a matter of several reasons. A few I can tell you off top of my head is ISP cost, EQ's repetitiveness, EQ's elitest guilds, and generally the amount of time it took to get anything done.
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I think the default reasoning for any problems with any sort of game nowadays is to blame it on WoW.
In MMO terms, WoW is basically "The day the music died." While the overall MMO community did grow, it grew for the wrong reasons, and was made worse for it. MMO developers also used to actually TRY to make interesting MMOs with new features because taking risks and being innovative was the way you got your game to stand out from the others. WoW took the "lets copy a little bit of everything" EQ was starting to do and took it to a whole new level, and plunged the industry direction into the dirt. Nobody took risks, nobody dared try anything new, and felt firm in the belief that by releasing the same thing they would succeed thanks to WoW dominating the room. It's only now, years later, after numerous failed clones that you're seeing some risky projects pop up again, and its going to be a long time before the MMO scene bounces back, if it does at all.
Apparently a large majority of players feel it was changed for the better...or the genre's industry wouldn't be so large.
Innovation is still necessary. The "clones" are the games which do poorly, whereas games which try to innovate (in a few key areas, without going overboard and missing out on polish) are the ones that do well.
Honestly I think the thread is a little silly, considering WOW was the first MMORPG to actually be enjoyable to me (after trying many of the early MMORPGs and considering them boring as hell.)
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OP described the situation.Its well known.Wow succed by copying and improving certain areas AND ASPECTS OF OTHER MMORPGS eq etc providing good solid gameplay for the tastes of ages mostly between 12-18.
What im worrying about is that wow's evolvment went towards instancing ,farming the same and same dungeons for badges,and has become a quite synthetic type of gameplay. Fun factor is somethign void in wow right now, at least for those that are older in age and had the luck to grow up with games or mmorpgs that were focusing on the RPG part of mmorpg (Uo,black crypt,eye of the beholder,morrorwind,oblivion,baldurs gate etc) All these games had great gameplay ,adventuring,exploring ,deep character progression,interactivity,cool options for the player and were addictive. Wow is addictive too ,but in its own synthetic way.
First of all, what legacy? A form of entertainment in its infancy can hardly have a 'legacy'. And WoW hit when this infant was barely 5 years old. If this is how you define legacy, then I guess Edison killed Lumiare's film legacy, the Golden Age of Hollywood killed the legacy of the Silent Film era, Star Wars killed the legacy of the French New Wave, and Youtube is killing the entire film legacy of the past 100 years....
No, seriously OP, get some perspective. MMOs will change, MMOs will go through periods of innovation and stagnancy. MMOs aren't dead, they aren't dying, they aren't god's curse to gaming, nor its savior.
Seriously.
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They are mostly empty in the nooby areas tho.
All WoW did is make the genre popular like what Lord of the Rings books did for fantasy. Before LOTR, there was what? Conan? LOTR spawned a bunch of new titles like The Wheel of Time series, taking fantasy mainstream.
AoC and WAR might not have been made if WoW didn't exist.
EQ and Ultima Online are still alive. Subscribe today and play. They are mostly empty in the nooby areas tho. All WoW did is make the genre popular like what Lord of the Rings books did for fantasy. Before LOTR, there was what? Conan? LOTR spawned a bunch of new titles like The Wheel of Time series, taking fantasy mainstream. AoC and WAR might not have been made if WoW didn't exist.
funny how the people crying about how it was better before don't play the games (still running) they give as example of good games from days gone by
...WAR might not have been made if WoW didn't exist.
Go figure.
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Originally posted by tazarconan OP described the situation.Its well known.Wow succed by copying and improving certain areas AND ASPECTS OF OTHER MMORPGS eq etc providing good solid gameplay for the tastes of ages mostly between 12-18. What im worrying about is that wow's evolvment went towards instancing ,farming the same and same dungeons for badges,and has become a quite synthetic type of gameplay. Fun factor is somethign void in wow right now, at least for those that are older in age and had the luck to grow up with games or mmorpgs that were focusing on the RPG part of mmorpg (Uo,black crypt,eye of the beholder,morrorwind,oblivion,baldurs gate etc) All these games had great gameplay ,adventuring,exploring ,deep character progression,interactivity,cool options for the player and were addictive. Wow is addictive too ,but in its own synthetic way.
According to this document over 60% of WOW US population is over 25 years old. Sure those statistics are bit old and not 100% accurate but their sample is fairly big so it should be close enough. And i believe percent of older players may be even bigger in EU (but this is only my assumption not based on any real data)
About the fun factor i will also disagree. Firstly you can't treat WOW (or almost any recent MMO for that mater) like single player RPG , because it's not. I know you would want true mmo_RPG_ game but in my belief the tech is still not there. But that doesn't mean wow can't be fun for avid crpg player. I did play most of the titles you listed and many more (Baldurs trilogy is my favorite i still play it sometimes, and Planescape: Torment is close by) and i find bits of those great crpgs in WOW.
There is exploration, believe it or not after 3 years i still sometimes find something i never saw before, some zone, hidden npc house with interesting lore dialogs etc. There is story and lore, sure it may be bit simplistic and naive and sometimes it contradicts itself (thus term 'lolore') but amount of work that went into this world is amazing in itself and if you only take your time and try to read it you probably will enjoy it. You can be part of the story, in wotlk each and every zone is connected in one huge storyline you get to see. You are put against Lich King from beginning to the end. But what i really like most about WOW is Blizzards attention and love for detail, sometimes you just do your stuff and suddenly notice something amazing and go 'OMFG how amazing is that? Where did they find time to put this little insignificant yet so cool detail into this game'
I do agree that instancing is poor way to go, I'm not big fan of it (but i don't hate it either) but i understand where it came from. I would also love more deep character progression and interactivity, cause it's true wow is lacking in those aspects.
I also have huge list of things i would change in it or dislike in it (flashy armors, meaningless pvp, lack of 'true' world events, from top of my head), but even then it's still good game. On a side note i do enjoy EVE but sadly I'm fantasy junkie so i only sub from time to time. If anyone made EVE with swords and magic i would pay small fortune for it ;p And no don't bother suggesting DF or MO if WOW did anything negative to me then it would definitely be spoiling me about game polish. I just refuse to pay for MMO that isn't at least close to WOW level of polish
OP described the situation.Its well known.Wow succed by copying and improving certain areas AND ASPECTS OF OTHER MMORPGS eq etc providing good solid gameplay for the tastes of ages mostly between 12-18. What im worrying about is that wow's evolvment went towards instancing ,farming the same and same dungeons for badges,and has become a quite synthetic type of gameplay. Fun factor is somethign void in wow right now, at least for those that are older in age and had the luck to grow up with games or mmorpgs that were focusing on the RPG part of mmorpg (Uo,black crypt,eye of the beholder,morrorwind,oblivion,baldurs gate etc) All these games had great gameplay ,adventuring,exploring ,deep character progression,interactivity,cool options for the player and were addictive. Wow is addictive too ,but in its own synthetic way.
Oh look, he played the AGE card=) Classic bitterness syndrome. If you don't like a game and its popular, just make fun of everyone who plays it by calling them kids. Nobody cares about your PC pedigree. Plenty of us played them. Theres nothing more REAL about older MMOs or RPGs except that they're just old and don't hold up well by todays standards. GO play those again. The rest of us will play NEW GAMES and continue to have fun. I had just as much fun in ME2 and DAO as I did in any older RPG from the 80s & 90s.
AND sorry to break this to you, but there are more ADULTS playing WOW than the population of most MMOs combined. And all those game you listed copied and borrowed aspects from games before them. You think ANYONE cares who got what from whom? Only if you're an uber nerd=) WOW is just a great game. Sorry Blizzard kicked your puppy or something.
Originally posted by MMOvision I strongly believe that World of Warcraft killed the MMO legacy. I find it hard to accept that anyone would disagree with this. Anyone being someone who's played MMO games before WoW launched. The simple fact of the matter is, MMO's were never meant to go MAINSTREAM. They were never meant to be the big money makers. Will anyone decide to take MMORPG's out of the mainstream and put them back into the hands of the developers who knew that the niche-community IS the community this genre was made for? (Shortened down for your pleasure, it is the first post if you want to read it all)
I disagree and I have been playing MMOs since Meridian (not Wow however). If MMO werent meant to be big money makers, why do they charge us monthly? Arenanet have already proven that you don't have to do that and still can make a good profit.
Some MMOs weren't meant to be mainstream but already EQ were close to MS. Pen and paper roleplaying game were rather large at the time and the first MMO devs were trying to make a digital roleplaying game, nothing more or less.
It is true that Wow got easier to get more players and that many later debs have used it as a measure on how a MMO should be but there are many smaller companies that makes harder MMO and still have a good population. Eve and Guildwars are just 2 examples but there are many more.
A lot of odder rebel ideas gets mainstream sooner or later, Punkrock, Gothis, P&P RPGs, Wargames, heavy metal and many more, now latest Norwegian black metal. That is only natural, piercing was once a really odd thing, then got mainstream and after that got rare again, that is how things usually works. Some things comes and goes, others stays for long (like baggy pants) but things changes. What is mainstream today was considered really odd a few years ago.
As for the usual Wow is too easy thing is that a trend, those comes and goes and MMOs will generally gets harder again at some point, probably soon.
It is clear if you look on games that releases from 2011 and forward that Wow and EQs total domination of mechanics and play-style will soon be a thing of the past. Games like WoDO, Guildwars 2, FF XIV and TOR will change that.
I understand your perspective, but I have to disagree with some points. One, profit has ALWAYS been one of the main motivators for people in the industry. Notice I said one of, not the only. But anyone who thinks that MMO developers(and the investors who back them) aren't mainly motivated by money, hasn't seen a room full of investors eyes go all big and then they start throwing TRUCK loads of money at you if you intone the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft".
Second, I agree that Blizzard has brought millions of players into the market that haven't played a MMO before. But thats the beauty of it. Eventually many of those players will grow bored of WoW and look around for other games. Of course, many of those new games will have WoW like qualities, but thats simply market dynamics at work.
Third, games with harsh death penalties, and havens for gankers and griefers(most FFA "sand box" games) niche themselves on launch in the modern western market. If they don't out right fail to attract and retain a sufficient player base. That is also an example of market dynamics.
Last, modern MMO's typically cost millions and millions of dollars(of other peoples money) to create. That being the case, most such groups tend to be rather risk adverse, and stick with themes that have been demonstrated to have sufficient appeal to achieve a good Return On Investment. That, like it or not, is what really drives the industry.
When all is said and done, World of Warcraft is a good game all the way to level cap. After more than 5 years its quite well polished and has a huge amount of content and lore. Its existence and example has been far more of a benefit to the industry as a whole, than a liability.
I'll never understand the complaint that MMOs are getting easier. MMOs were never all that difficult. Ever.
Go back as far as you want. UO was laughably easy unless you happened to get jumped by a group of PKers while killing harpies for arrows in Covetous, in which case it was patently unfair but still not particularly difficult. EQ was a laughably easy game where every fight consisted of the exact same strategy of 'Can my healers outheal incoming damage while DPS mashes buttons?' DAoC, AO, AC, etc didn't introduce any monumental change to that paradigm either. If anything devs across all games have figured out how to make games MORE challenging by creating better scripted events in the PvE encounters without resorting to inquisition-level punishment.
Unless we're measuring difficulty in terms of some of the more unfair and unduly harsh penalites imposed in earlier games. In that case, I would argue that ramping up the level of punishment to insane levels is a poor substitute for designing encounters that require actual skill to beat. Anyone that sat up through half the night after a failed Fear break, dead tired, frustrated, worried that the past 6 months of work is going to rot, and losing 1/4 of a level per death, knows firsthand what passed for difficult in older games. It wasn't fun or challenging; it didn't require skill or innovative thinking. It required only pure, tortured persistence and devotion to a video game. And who can forget the rampaging sand giants in West commons? Yeah...there was a lot of challenge in a level 45 mob running around stomping on level 10s. Or being required to train magic to be able to teleport every single one of my crafting characters so I could farm lumber and ore without being jacked by a PKer? Or having to teleport back to my house every 15 minutes to store any loot I picked up so random_dreadlord_01 and his 5 buddies don't kill me and take it all?
Call me a carebear if you want. Call it easy mode if you want. 13 years isn't so long that I've forgotten what substituted for difficulty in earlier games and I have no desire to go back to those days. I'd be surprised if anyone else does either.
...WAR might not have been made if WoW didn't exist.
Go figure.
Are you serious ? you do know that WoW AKA Warcraft is a copy of Warhammer i hope you know this Blizzard went to Gamers Workshop and asked if they can use the Warhammer IP on games they said no so blizzard decided to take the same game and reskin it to WARCRAFT so without WAR there would be no WoW.
Only people defending WoW are the ones who haven't experienced how much better the older MMos were.
Really? I've been at this since UO. WAY too many people are looking back with rose colored glasses that are distorting their memories of games past. "Better" in what sense? I've enjoyed many of the games I've played(Asherons Call One being one of my personal favorites), but I would NOT want to go back to its dated graphics and harsh death penalty . I've moved on since that time, as have the majority of the MMO player population. Sand box FFA games are niche and will remain so in the modern western market.
I'll never understand the complaint that MMOs are getting easier. MMOs were never all that difficult. Ever.
Go back as far as you want. UO was laughably easy unless you happened to get jumped by a group of PKers while killing harpies for arrows in Covetous, in which case it was patently unfair but still not particularly difficult. EQ was a laughably easy game where every fight consisted of the exact same strategy of 'Can my healers outheal incoming damage while DPS mashes buttons?' DAoC, AO, AC, etc didn't introduce any monumental change to that paradigm either. If anything devs across all games have figured out how to make games MORE challenging by creating better scripted events in the PvE encounters without resorting to inquisition-level punishment.
Unless we're measuring difficulty in terms of some of the more unfair and unduly harsh penalites imposed in earlier games. In that case, I would argue that ramping up the level of punishment to insane levels is a poor substitute for designing encounters that require actual skill to beat. Anyone that sat up through half the night after a failed Fear break, dead tired, frustrated, worried that the past 6 months of work is going to rot, and losing 1/4 of a level per death, knows firsthand what passed for difficult in older games. It wasn't fun or challenging; it didn't require skill or innovative thinking. It required only pure, tortured persistence and devotion to a video game. And who can forget the rampaging sand giants in West commons? Yeah...there was a lot of challenge in a level 45 mob running around stomping on level 10s. Or being required to train magic to be able to teleport every single one of my crafting characters so I could farm lumber and ore without being jacked by a PKer? Or having to teleport back to my house every 15 minutes to store any loot I picked up so random_dreadlord_01 and his 5 buddies don't kill me and take it all?
Call me a carebear if you want. Call it easy mode if you want. 13 years isn't so long that I've forgotten what substituted for difficulty in earlier games and I have no desire to go back to those days. I'd be surprised if anyone else does either.
^^^^ This comeing from a guy who has never played either UO or EQ i can tell that by what little information you said about the difficulty of both.My guess if you did try them you ran away because you could not handle the difficulty.
Comments
Well, I suppose I'll disagree.
What wow did was open the mmo genre up to non mmo players. I'm not sure that the first mmo/mud players were the most run of the mill average people you've ever met.
Of those I've met they were all a bit geeky, introverted, exceptionally bright but more of the computer nerd/D&D variety of people. It sort of made sense that their sense of wonderment about this new type of entertaiment coupled with a social element as well as computers would drive them toward online games.
People who play now are probably more average video game players if not new players to video games.
WoW opened up the genre. This happens with all sort of genres.
My Aunt who was a Torch Singer said to me that Rock ruined music. Completely polluted the musical scene.
Would you agree?
Probably not.
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I wouldn't say Wow itself ruined the genre. More all the bastards called shareholders, investors which found a place in a genre, were they argueable DON'T belong. I agree that Wow brought a good bunch of people that shouldn't play MMORPG's because MMORPG's aren't for them. MMORPG's were never ever meant to go mainstream so it was a nice niche genre for people dedicated to social elements and having a good time with others.
The combination of Wow, shareholders, investors and of course lame players brought up the dark age of MMORPG's and its still not over. As much as I love Everquest sometimes I wish would have never been created just to avoid the release of Wow and its so called "community". Since my earliest MMORPGdays I've always met people I didn't like but never ever as much as I did in WoW. The game itself really can't be called a mmorpg any longer its more a MMO without anything special.
Don't get me wrong the game HAD its funny times during Vanilla, BC but I always felt that it really isn't something special and lacking lots of the great features UO, EQ 1 and even Daoc had. The Fail Of The Lichking is just a proof that Blizzard has lost it completely.
as far as numbers go just do the simple maths:
China 6 million subs wow had 11,5 - 6 = 5,5 so I say it MIGHT be around 5 - 4,5 right now
We gonna see some huge changes in the future because as we all know copying isn't doing the trick. And thats my hope
Split the genre into MMO and MMORPG. MMORPG's for the real gamer with passion and MMO for people that think doing the same incredible braindead instances over and over is fun. So both sides should be happy!
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
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"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
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WoW did not destroy ant legacy. A legacy is how one changes his destiny. Companies DO NOT have to follow in Blizzards footsteps. It is not Blizzards fault that other companies are COUGHT UP in numbers instead of focusing on new and original ideas. A legacy is not always the same as the last, nor is it any better or worse in different situations. Like every major power the world has known, they have broken down, and vanished. Then a new power will rise, but not at the same time, and not with the same concepts.
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Get out of your box already...
According to who exactly? Game developers want as many people as possible to enjoy their games. Saying MMOs were never meant to be mainstream is really no different than saying PC games were never meant to be mainstream. What's your reasoning? Seems kinda like a pissed off fan of a band that once was obscure that has found fame and suddenly they have millions of other fans.
Also, many of you people still don't know what legacy means.
You can't play WoW in China, huh? I'll fetch my tinfoil hat then as I play in China, every single day.
WoW bashing for WoW bashing's sake is what the main thrust of this thread feels like.
Every game ever paid for by investors was made to try and make a profit.
WoW exceeded Blizzard's expectations for subscriptions - they thought they might get 500K subscribers originally. And like it or not 11.5 million subscribers (putting aside ludicrous conspiracy theories after all Cataclysm is being written with bringing in new subscribers as the main objective - which is a straight admission of struggling to attract and retain any more players) like the game for what it is.
WoW runs on any machine, great that's a superbly sensible thing to do. Why should anyone be forced to hand out thousands for extra hardware to play a game? You want to know why PC keeps getting beaten up by console? Because you don't have to buy a new Xbox every time you want to play a new release.
WoW is a theme park game? So what? 11.5 million people like that theme park. Eve is a popular sandbox game and 0.5 million people like that. Both make money for their devs too.
WoW has spoiled MMOs forever? Not really, it has certainly inspired a legion of not terribly significant clones but so does every success, sooner or later someone will get smart and work on a great game which incorporates something WoW doesn't have, creativity is normally spurred by strong competition not lack of it.
MMO's were simply built to be massive multiplayer online, RPG's were for role-playing, WoW allows both and it's fun, it may not be the most challenging experience in the world, but it is constantly fresh and there's always something you haven't seen.
If you want to talk about the game's faults, which are legion, please do so but refrain from the toys out of the pram, "the scene doesn't bow before me" type stuff, it's not adding anything useful.
Blaming WoW is really just shooting the messenger. MMO gaming in a persistent environment was always going to hit the mainstream at some point regardless. The freakish success of WoW is fairly clear evidence that the dam was waiting to burst.
I'm not convinced the 'MMO legacy' is dead anyway. There are still plenty of gamers who want MMORPGs with more traditional values. They may represent only a fraction of WoW's subscription numbers but it is still a relatively untapped market that is just getting lost in the mix at the moment. It seems to me that the term MMORPG has been somewhat hijacked to describe any MMO game. Perhaps in a few years we will see games more accurately classified as MMOFPSs, MMOGs and MMORPGs and then we can all retreat to our own particular niches and be happy.
According to the OP, they have no right knowing what MMORPG is!!
Yeah. A comical opinion, for sure.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
no it doesnt
I am playing it again after 3 years and im having a blast.
in this 3 years I played a lot of p2p and f2p games, most of the p2p felt unfinished and empty and when im playing f2p (ALL of them got shit graphics) i felt like I got scammed everytime i logged in.
well most of the people who play WoW dont creep in forums and complain about "how bad WoW is" and so on.
my first and last post this year
cu and just enjoy ur favorite mmo
QFT. Pretty much all that needs to be said in this thread.
ONLY thing that made WoW so big is blizzard, ONLY reason WoW made MMOs mainstream is they already had a huge fan base of the well known company with some really solid titles....and the press giving loads of free advertise since it been quite a sensation millions of ppl would be "dumb" enough to pay 15$/month for a product they already bought once.
heck I know ppl who thought WoW were the first MMO.
I dont agree with the OP of beating at WoW but do really not like MMOs became mainstream, since mainstream want action....not virtual worlds. and no virtual world doesnt mean ppl want to live online, it means they are into MMORPGs.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. WoW was not the first mainstream MMORPG. EQ if you remember got much press as well as an ad on TV Guide I believe it was. The reason why it didn't take off the way WoW did, is a matter of several reasons. A few I can tell you off top of my head is ISP cost, EQ's repetitiveness, EQ's elitest guilds, and generally the amount of time it took to get anything done.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
In MMO terms, WoW is basically "The day the music died." While the overall MMO community did grow, it grew for the wrong reasons, and was made worse for it. MMO developers also used to actually TRY to make interesting MMOs with new features because taking risks and being innovative was the way you got your game to stand out from the others. WoW took the "lets copy a little bit of everything" EQ was starting to do and took it to a whole new level, and plunged the industry direction into the dirt. Nobody took risks, nobody dared try anything new, and felt firm in the belief that by releasing the same thing they would succeed thanks to WoW dominating the room. It's only now, years later, after numerous failed clones that you're seeing some risky projects pop up again, and its going to be a long time before the MMO scene bounces back, if it does at all.
Apparently a large majority of players feel it was changed for the better...or the genre's industry wouldn't be so large.
Innovation is still necessary. The "clones" are the games which do poorly, whereas games which try to innovate (in a few key areas, without going overboard and missing out on polish) are the ones that do well.
Honestly I think the thread is a little silly, considering WOW was the first MMORPG to actually be enjoyable to me (after trying many of the early MMORPGs and considering them boring as hell.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
OP described the situation.Its well known.Wow succed by copying and improving certain areas AND ASPECTS OF OTHER MMORPGS eq etc providing good solid gameplay for the tastes of ages mostly between 12-18.
What im worrying about is that wow's evolvment went towards instancing ,farming the same and same dungeons for badges,and has become a quite synthetic type of gameplay. Fun factor is somethign void in wow right now, at least for those that are older in age and had the luck to grow up with games or mmorpgs that were focusing on the RPG part of mmorpg (Uo,black crypt,eye of the beholder,morrorwind,oblivion,baldurs gate etc) All these games had great gameplay ,adventuring,exploring ,deep character progression,interactivity,cool options for the player and were addictive. Wow is addictive too ,but in its own synthetic way.
First of all, what legacy? A form of entertainment in its infancy can hardly have a 'legacy'. And WoW hit when this infant was barely 5 years old. If this is how you define legacy, then I guess Edison killed Lumiare's film legacy, the Golden Age of Hollywood killed the legacy of the Silent Film era, Star Wars killed the legacy of the French New Wave, and Youtube is killing the entire film legacy of the past 100 years....
No, seriously OP, get some perspective. MMOs will change, MMOs will go through periods of innovation and stagnancy. MMOs aren't dead, they aren't dying, they aren't god's curse to gaming, nor its savior.
Seriously.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
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They are mostly empty in the nooby areas tho.
All WoW did is make the genre popular like what Lord of the Rings books did for fantasy. Before LOTR, there was what? Conan? LOTR spawned a bunch of new titles like The Wheel of Time series, taking fantasy mainstream.
AoC and WAR might not have been made if WoW didn't exist.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
funny how the people crying about how it was better before don't play the games (still running) they give as example of good games from days gone by
Go figure.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I'll disagree about few points from your post.
First you assume WOWs core user base and target is of age 12-18, i suppose you base it on your opinion that only minors prefer 'them park' gameplay. But I'm afraid you are wrong (read carefully page 8):
http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/stateofvgamer_040609_fnl1.pdf
According to this document over 60% of WOW US population is over 25 years old.
Sure those statistics are bit old and not 100% accurate but their sample is fairly big so it should be close enough. And i believe percent of older players may be even bigger in EU (but this is only my assumption not based on any real data)
About the fun factor i will also disagree. Firstly you can't treat WOW (or almost any recent MMO for that mater) like single player RPG , because it's not. I know you would want true mmo_RPG_ game but in my belief the tech is still not there.
But that doesn't mean wow can't be fun for avid crpg player. I did play most of the titles you listed and many more (Baldurs trilogy is my favorite i still play it sometimes, and Planescape: Torment is close by) and i find bits of those great crpgs in WOW.
There is exploration, believe it or not after 3 years i still sometimes find something i never saw before, some zone, hidden npc house with interesting lore dialogs etc. There is story and lore, sure it may be bit simplistic and naive and sometimes it contradicts itself (thus term 'lolore') but amount of work that went into this world is amazing in itself and if you only take your time and try to read it you probably will enjoy it. You can be part of the story, in wotlk each and every zone is connected in one huge storyline you get to see. You are put against Lich King from beginning to the end. But what i really like most about WOW is Blizzards attention and love for detail, sometimes you just do your stuff and suddenly notice something amazing and go 'OMFG how amazing is that? Where did they find time to put this little insignificant yet so cool detail into this game'
I do agree that instancing is poor way to go, I'm not big fan of it (but i don't hate it either) but i understand where it came from. I would also love more deep character progression and interactivity, cause it's true wow is lacking in those aspects.
I also have huge list of things i would change in it or dislike in it (flashy armors, meaningless pvp, lack of 'true' world events, from top of my head), but even then it's still good game. On a side note i do enjoy EVE but sadly I'm fantasy junkie so i only sub from time to time. If anyone made EVE with swords and magic i would pay small fortune for it ;p And no don't bother suggesting DF or MO if WOW did anything negative to me then it would definitely be spoiling me about game polish. I just refuse to pay for MMO that isn't at least close to WOW level of polish
Oh look, he played the AGE card=) Classic bitterness syndrome. If you don't like a game and its popular, just make fun of everyone who plays it by calling them kids. Nobody cares about your PC pedigree. Plenty of us played them. Theres nothing more REAL about older MMOs or RPGs except that they're just old and don't hold up well by todays standards. GO play those again. The rest of us will play NEW GAMES and continue to have fun. I had just as much fun in ME2 and DAO as I did in any older RPG from the 80s & 90s.
AND sorry to break this to you, but there are more ADULTS playing WOW than the population of most MMOs combined. And all those game you listed copied and borrowed aspects from games before them. You think ANYONE cares who got what from whom? Only if you're an uber nerd=) WOW is just a great game. Sorry Blizzard kicked your puppy or something.
I disagree and I have been playing MMOs since Meridian (not Wow however). If MMO werent meant to be big money makers, why do they charge us monthly? Arenanet have already proven that you don't have to do that and still can make a good profit.
Some MMOs weren't meant to be mainstream but already EQ were close to MS. Pen and paper roleplaying game were rather large at the time and the first MMO devs were trying to make a digital roleplaying game, nothing more or less.
It is true that Wow got easier to get more players and that many later debs have used it as a measure on how a MMO should be but there are many smaller companies that makes harder MMO and still have a good population. Eve and Guildwars are just 2 examples but there are many more.
A lot of odder rebel ideas gets mainstream sooner or later, Punkrock, Gothis, P&P RPGs, Wargames, heavy metal and many more, now latest Norwegian black metal. That is only natural, piercing was once a really odd thing, then got mainstream and after that got rare again, that is how things usually works. Some things comes and goes, others stays for long (like baggy pants) but things changes. What is mainstream today was considered really odd a few years ago.
As for the usual Wow is too easy thing is that a trend, those comes and goes and MMOs will generally gets harder again at some point, probably soon.
It is clear if you look on games that releases from 2011 and forward that Wow and EQs total domination of mechanics and play-style will soon be a thing of the past. Games like WoDO, Guildwars 2, FF XIV and TOR will change that.
I understand your perspective, but I have to disagree with some points. One, profit has ALWAYS been one of the main motivators for people in the industry. Notice I said one of, not the only. But anyone who thinks that MMO developers(and the investors who back them) aren't mainly motivated by money, hasn't seen a room full of investors eyes go all big and then they start throwing TRUCK loads of money at you if you intone the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft".
Second, I agree that Blizzard has brought millions of players into the market that haven't played a MMO before. But thats the beauty of it. Eventually many of those players will grow bored of WoW and look around for other games. Of course, many of those new games will have WoW like qualities, but thats simply market dynamics at work.
Third, games with harsh death penalties, and havens for gankers and griefers(most FFA "sand box" games) niche themselves on launch in the modern western market. If they don't out right fail to attract and retain a sufficient player base. That is also an example of market dynamics.
Last, modern MMO's typically cost millions and millions of dollars(of other peoples money) to create. That being the case, most such groups tend to be rather risk adverse, and stick with themes that have been demonstrated to have sufficient appeal to achieve a good Return On Investment. That, like it or not, is what really drives the industry.
When all is said and done, World of Warcraft is a good game all the way to level cap. After more than 5 years its quite well polished and has a huge amount of content and lore. Its existence and example has been far more of a benefit to the industry as a whole, than a liability.
Only people defending WoW are the ones who haven't experienced how much better the older MMos were.
I'll never understand the complaint that MMOs are getting easier. MMOs were never all that difficult. Ever.
Go back as far as you want. UO was laughably easy unless you happened to get jumped by a group of PKers while killing harpies for arrows in Covetous, in which case it was patently unfair but still not particularly difficult. EQ was a laughably easy game where every fight consisted of the exact same strategy of 'Can my healers outheal incoming damage while DPS mashes buttons?' DAoC, AO, AC, etc didn't introduce any monumental change to that paradigm either. If anything devs across all games have figured out how to make games MORE challenging by creating better scripted events in the PvE encounters without resorting to inquisition-level punishment.
Unless we're measuring difficulty in terms of some of the more unfair and unduly harsh penalites imposed in earlier games. In that case, I would argue that ramping up the level of punishment to insane levels is a poor substitute for designing encounters that require actual skill to beat. Anyone that sat up through half the night after a failed Fear break, dead tired, frustrated, worried that the past 6 months of work is going to rot, and losing 1/4 of a level per death, knows firsthand what passed for difficult in older games. It wasn't fun or challenging; it didn't require skill or innovative thinking. It required only pure, tortured persistence and devotion to a video game. And who can forget the rampaging sand giants in West commons? Yeah...there was a lot of challenge in a level 45 mob running around stomping on level 10s. Or being required to train magic to be able to teleport every single one of my crafting characters so I could farm lumber and ore without being jacked by a PKer? Or having to teleport back to my house every 15 minutes to store any loot I picked up so random_dreadlord_01 and his 5 buddies don't kill me and take it all?
Call me a carebear if you want. Call it easy mode if you want. 13 years isn't so long that I've forgotten what substituted for difficulty in earlier games and I have no desire to go back to those days. I'd be surprised if anyone else does either.
Go figure.
Are you serious ? you do know that WoW AKA Warcraft is a copy of Warhammer i hope you know this Blizzard went to Gamers Workshop and asked if they can use the Warhammer IP on games they said no so blizzard decided to take the same game and reskin it to WARCRAFT so without WAR there would be no WoW.
Really? I've been at this since UO. WAY too many people are looking back with rose colored glasses that are distorting their memories of games past. "Better" in what sense? I've enjoyed many of the games I've played(Asherons Call One being one of my personal favorites), but I would NOT want to go back to its dated graphics and harsh death penalty . I've moved on since that time, as have the majority of the MMO player population. Sand box FFA games are niche and will remain so in the modern western market.
^^^^ This comeing from a guy who has never played either UO or EQ i can tell that by what little information you said about the difficulty of both.My guess if you did try them you ran away because you could not handle the difficulty.