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Why did housing in MMOs degenerate after SWG ?
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lol they have this and its somehow popular....... its called the sims
If you indeed played SWG back then, the you also must remember what the majority was screaming things like "we don't need housing, go play the sims if you want to decorate"
The masses simply wants a multiplayer combat experiance out of this genre. They don't see how housing fits this genre.
And yes loved my hous (es) in SWG, made allot of them, ranging from workshops like a dedicated Engineer lab, Architect lab, Shipcrafters lab, Bio-engineer lab, Droidengineer lab and casual living homes and several shops.
Thankfully there are still a few (indie) developers mostly that want to atract the more MMORPG base players instead of reaching to the masses.
That always boggled my mind. They put in a very decent housing and town building system and yet they could not implement a combat system where rifles had ranges longer than a freaking pistol.
How was SOE able to code a nice housing system and a complex(though with a horrible UI) crafting system and yet could not code their way out of a wet paper bag when it came to a working, logical combat sytem ?
That always boggled my mind. They put in a very decent housing and town building system and yet they could not implement a combat system where rifles had ranges longer than a freaking pistol.
How was SOE able to code a nice housing system and a complex(though with a horrible UI) crafting system and yet could not code their way out of a wet paper bag when it came to a working, logical combat sytem ?
NGE fixed it )
/hides
SWG housing wasn't great.
The vast majority of houses were nothing more than empty storage shacks. Sure, it was nice to find a well-decorated mall but what practical use did it have over an Auction House and Bank?
Harvesters were different; they were practical and cool.
Don't get me wrong, I like housing. I like tinkering with stuff in general, so it was fun for me to own a house in SWG and pretty it up. It was fun when one of my pals dropped by and said "ooh, pretty" .. but housing is, essentially, useless. It was a good RP mechanic, but RPers are a small niche .. we're overlooked as often as the Permadeath or FFA PvP/Full Loot crowds.
The problem with MMO development is that everything is "either/or" .. they can either spend time and money on a mechanic that few people will use or want, or they can spend time and money improving elements that tons of people want.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I don't know - maybe it was the state of chat rooms at the time.
We had a good town where people came together in the town hall just to meet and chat and do stuff like swop meets or parties
It was a place where people could meet and chat or seek help for missions. We experienced differnet cultures - The UK guys did a Guy Fawles night with roast potatoes and fireworks and the Yanks followed it up with a Thanksgiving Night.
There was a sense of belonging which I haven't seen since. People just came in to chat and have a laugh and you felt that you were "making" something for all your time and energy of playing.
It was fun to have a house where you could go and display stuff - Your latest greatest gun, a "kill" banner or a special "thing" (I had all the vet rewards on show - TIE fighter, X wing - even a stupid R2 Droid I made when tinkering with Droid maker. - It wasn't about being a "Mall" or a storage shack - t was about creating something.....
And I say again - It's a fricking house.... - How difficult can it be to write this with the amount of software now floating about - WHY OH WHY does every "New" game need a complete new engine ???
(Is there a little home for burnt out Dev's saying things like " Why do you need a 1600 x 1200 res ? - In my day 640 by 480 did us just fine - less coding too" or do they all get thrown over the cliff on their 25 or 30 birthdays a la Dawn to Dusk )
BTW - Slaps Krull as he tries to hide.
I wanna a house !!!!!
vanguards housing was awesome, vanguard in general = win but for some reason no one likes it....
I am. And if i have to choose, i would much rather blizzard spends their resources to make a few new 5-man dungeons than to enable player housing. I am probably not alone and Blizzard prob knows it.
Then you're not the type to like housing anyway. I can understand how you just want to run-through content and stuff and experience the story. I personally very much appreciate the meta-game. And also he doesn't want to change WoW. He's annoyed that other companies are copying WoW.
I couldn't get into it...I don't know why...felt kinda empty and not very...world-y...But that was a while ago. I should check it out again.
I think its all about control of a player's experience by the development team. Despite all of the potential positives that come with player housing, devs feel more comfortable by having control of the content. They are able to plan for things better and are better abled to respond to problems where they arise.
For example, new WOW expansion will completely alter the terrain and zones throughout the game. Had they implemented non-instanced player housing, they would be limited in what they can do with particular zones, etc.
I'm not a fan of the linear play style many recent MMORPGs have taken....just saying that the boys n' girls over at Blizzard feel they have a good forumula for their game and (like a few have stated) the suits at the other major publishing companies are looking to WOW as the industry standard on what they need develop to succeed.
There are specific game mechanics that lend themselves to player housing and many of the new MMORPGs don't support those.
The part I enjoyed about SWG, including its housing, was the freedom of it. You could drive halfway into a zone (in a perfect straight line for 15 minutes non stop) and stumble across a player house. The worlds were massive, explorable, and truly sandbox. Everything about SWG was incredible and in depth; the fact that you could live nearly anywhere you wanted to was amazing.
I'm talking about... lets say you find a beautiful area of scenery that nobody noticed, somewhere within SWG's massive sandbox worlds (there were multiple planets, each massive and unique in their own right). You could literally get a deed, go to that area.. and place your home right next to the lake to the lake you love so much, or right amidst that cool placement of trees, or what have you. There were a few exceptions, but If I get player housing again, anything less than SWG's freedom would just be a shame to the term. The idea of instanced player housing just seems ridiculous to me...
what people loved about SWG was the immersion of the player in an MMO world. A World that looked, and felt, enough like SWG, and played enough like an awesome, in-depth game, that would undoubtedly have a cult following (you know what, it still does, regardless) if it hadn't been altered so severely by the developers.
Housing just isn't worth the effort for the developers. It is not a gamemaker - games do well even without it.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Funny part about SWG is, without housing the game would have died long time ago but at the same time when i see that 80% of the City's are ghost towns, i can see why Housing ain't number 1# on any developers list.
It's like the cool new toy that you want so much and after using it for couple of days it decomposes in the corner.
for Sandbox MMOs, the housing and player built towns/structures ARE the content for the game. The more you allow the players to build their own world, the more successful and fun the game is. for a Themepark game, housing isn't about building the world, but about having your own little place to show off your trophies and have a few friends (or an entire guild over). Themepark games with instanced housing and guild halls add another element to keep people playing.
It all depends on how the rest of the game systems and game world work.
SWG had very little 'developed' land outside the NPC cities. there were some POIs and 'themepark' areas like Jabba's Palace and the Imperial 'retreat' on Naboo. the rest of the worlds were wide open, unclaimed space. Building houses and later towns was part of the game, and it worked with the other systems in the game. It worked because there was a lot of player crafting, so players needed a place to put their shops (in their houses). Then politics and cities came out and the players with vendors could move farther from NPC cities and form towns with shuttles to allow convenient access to their shops, along with the crafting bonuses conferred by being a citizen in a particular type of town. Other players (non-crafters) moved houses into those towns to be near friends and the activities centered on the cantinas and the mission terminals (another feature of towns). Tack on some more features allowing a town to be declared for a particular faction and allowing PvP 'bases' to be built inside the city limits and you have an enhancement to the Galactic Civil war. It all worked together and it worked fairly well at the population levels pre Combat upgrade and pre NGE. And it wasn't all in place on day one, first houses, then politics and cities then more features on top of that, but it all worked because the game systems at all levels supported it, starting with the wide open and uncluttered world and the sandbox style that allowed players to do their own thing, and provided them with the tools to build their own universe.
Now, how would you do housing in WoW, as the game stands right now. How and where would housing fit into the world? The game has world PvP and PvP servers, so in general you probably don't want people to be able to place houses 'anywhere' in the world. So, restrict it to capitals (multi unit structures and maybe guild halls) and lower level areas near the capitals (cottages, manors, towers, inns). Because the public world is a theme park, with points of interest, quest hubs and quest objectives covering every square inch of the map, the housing would have to be instanced past the front door. You could throw a few cottages, manors and such across the landscape in the starter areas and use up some of the NPC buildings around the capitals for entrances to housing without too much impact on the 'world'. Player to player trade is personal or through the auction house, so adding hawkers to personal houses isn't an option. As for what you could do, 'everything' you can imagine, since WoW is all about the accessories. Personal teleporters to/from capitals (if you live outside a capital), mannequins to show off old suits of armor or other clothing sets, allowing your critter pets to roam your house, shelves for trophies, a stable/garage to park your spare mounts, fishing spot, forge, anvil. and some way to allow friends to visit so you can show off all our loot.
Another option for WoW and other 'established' themepark games is to reuse old dungeons/content. Cataclysm is coming to WoW and the old world is being rebuilt. Why not turn Blackrock mountain into a high rise apartement complex or take the Outland and expand the inhabited portions. Ragnaros is moving and we've killed Illidan already, why not finish off the job and make their old dungeons and environs more habitable and inhabited? Who wouldn't want to have an apartment in the Black Temple or Blackrock Mountain? Or a house on one of the floating islands scattered around Outlands?
SWG didn't have Population, it HAD COMMUNITY. Community is what drives open world sandbox games like SWG and others. Because the players build the world they live in, they usually work together. If there is competition, its for resources/land/something that is tangible to the players involved in the competition/conflict. The players are all on the same 'page' as far as wants, needs and goals. Players wanting to build a town can get together and build a town. Players wanting to go hunting can group up and go to a communal mission terminal and get missions to go hunting, players wanting to entertain or be entertained can gather in the Cantina.
SWG style 'communities' only work in sandbox/open world games. SWG style HOUSING (inside the house) could work for any game, provided they give enough 'stuff' to put in the house and enough controls to allow homemakers to arrange the house how they want it.
LotRO has nice player housing.
Your choice of various houses within a neighborhood featuring a banquet/party center including vendors and some nice scenery. The houses have a yard to display outside trophies ranging from a hobbit feast table to gardens/trees to boss kill trophies. After buying a house you are given an ability to port there
The inside can be changed via paint, music choices, floor coverings, trophies, chests for item storage, etc. The trophies can be such things as a mouse-hole where a mouse randomly comes out to eat a piece of cheese, various furniture, a fishing trophy, or a large tentacle in a barrel that sloshes around from a boss kill.
The guild houses are much larger with bigger plots and more storage of course.
All in all even though the neighborhoods themselves are instanced it is pretty well done. You do run into your neighbors here and there
QFT
No.
Housing was an integral part of the SWG design from the beginning (player cities were patched in later). Koster and company were aiming to create a social mmo, and the individuality and room for creativity that Galaxies' housing system allowed was a large part of that design. Aside from social hubs, they also served economic functions as storefronts, warehouses, etc, back before the economy was changed from crafter-based to loot-based.
Housing in games that are solely focused on combat is indeed fluff, but SWG wasn't that way.
...
Would anyone playing WOW currently quit if they didn't add housing at this moment? And for those who arent playing, would housing suddenly convince you to join again? And if you say, "I need to see it first before deciding"...that doesn't help Blizzard, because the money in designing the system would already be spent, so if you choose not to join, they just threw money down the drain.
This is a business not a charity. In the hypothetical example: If Blizzard couldn't prove that X number of players would join if they add a feature and the cost to create that feature isn't covered by the new players joining, that feature is a waste of time.
Basically, no one is quiting WOW if they don't add housing and no one of significance is joining if they do. So the money is best spent on features that WILL keep players happy and bring in new ones. NOT HOUSING!
Thats why housing isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things.
IMO housing wasn't all that great prior to SWG.
Then again I'm not a big housing fan as it always seems to either be an eye sore to the open world, or a useless instance.
I will have to give a slight nod to SWG as the housing there at least served a purpose in that you could run vendors from your house. They weren't completely useless compared to the mostly fluff they are comprised of in other MMOs.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
I've got mixed feelings about housing.
When DAOC added it at first it seemed cool. But then when you realized to get a land deed it could cost between 1-15M Plat then the houses went for 1P or more plus more gold to outfit them and I viewed it as a huge time sink and pretty much useless.
Yet, when coupled with a good guild house with everyone located around it I did enjoy it, so I can't say it was a total wash.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Of course players wouldn't quit WOW because there is no housing.....there wasn't any to begin with. The game mechanics that make housing important are not supported by the mechanics in WOW.
Players have relatively few possesions and require very little more space than what they have in thier own pack and bank.....so there is no need for additional house storage.
The Armory & all the information that it tracks & makes publicly available serves as a virtual "trophy case" of what you've accomplished.
Very little "idle" landscape makes it hard to make enough housing available to all players.
There are very deep core mechanics that make housing worthwhile and WOW doesn't really support any of them.
Of course players wouldn't quit WOW because there is no housing.....there wasn't any to begin with. The game mechanics that make housing important are not supported by the mechanics in WOW.
Players have relatively few possesions and require very little more space than what they have in thier own pack and bank.....so there is no need for additional house storage.
The Armory & all the information that it tracks & makes publicly available serves as a virtual "trophy case" of what you've accomplished.
Very little "idle" landscape makes it hard to make enough housing available to all players.
There are very deep core mechanics that make housing worthwhile and WOW doesn't really support any of them.
Correct!! People that require housing are those who sit in game and chat or hang out for long periods of time without doing anything constructive, exciting or challenging. Its mostly a social thing. UO and SWG had in depth housing because a large part of the game was just people hanging out. Now a days, the need to just hang out in a MMO isn't all that important. People want to DO things. Interacting in a virtual world was cool in UO back in the 90s. Now its about as exciting as your first toy car.
Just woke up a bit ago, and this is your second post I am mostly agreeing with.
In this post I agree with your comments about either/or.
Some things SWG/sandbox fans favor just dont sell to mainstream players. After witnessing wastelands of empty houses in SWG(prior to NGE)...I see no reason why this feature would be implemented again to please the few.
As I type, my wife is currently trying to take her 3 toons to next max level in EQ2. Although I tried to like that game, for her sake, like I used to enjoy EQ1...it just wasnt the same to me.
The one thing I did like about EQ2 though is that they used an instanced housing system. It allowed those that enjoy housing to have their cake...without cluttering up the landscape to do so.
The perfect compromise. It didnt require too much thought/resources...but is still included.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Housing sounds like fun but is always sorely lacking. I have played SWG, Wurm etc. and every time housing always has minimal customization, takes too long to get and just ends up setting there being used as storage so it really isn't worth it. And considering these games, development time could have been better used towards things like combat and general controls.
I think housing should be added on top of an already well made game, may in an expansion or content update. And if you are going to have it why not actually make it good, let players customize the damn thing more than sticking things on predefined locations, The Sims had a good house creator. If you are not going to do something well then don't do it at all.
Also I don't have a problem with instanced housing, I understand the fantasy to make player made cities, but frankly they always suck, rows of generic houses put into a city that has no personality, history or purpose. Maybe if you could build onto an already established city, utilizing the placeholder buildings that every city has.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit