But that was my point exactly, why should it be balanced?
Because it's not truly in the spirit of competition if it is unbalanced.
It's like having a minor league, and a major league team facing off against each other. Sure it may be good for some laughs to see how badly the minor league team gets beaten, but it would get old fast, especially knowing that the major league team is going to win. An exciting competition is when you don't know who's going to win, and both sides give their best, because their full abilities are actually challenged.
If you don't want a balanced challenge, why not just play a single player game and either impose a huge handicap on yourself, or use cheatcodes to become ridiculously overpowered? it's effectively the same thing... fun for some, boring as dirt for most others.
But that was my point exactly, why should it be balanced?
Because being the 'underdog' is not really fun in the long run. It might be fun fighting your way to vicotory when the odds are stacked against you but if you are forced to do this all the time it stops being fun and starts being tedious.
Also players want acknowledgement of their skills and abilities. If you lose against a character that is overpowered, you might actually be a more skilled player but will never be acknowledged as that (or you could just be a sore loser). A 'fair' fight settles the issue of who is more skilled which an unblanced fight cannot.
so then you honestly don't want a challenge? Skills only show what you are doing, not that you are being challenged. There is a difference.
Everything else equal, playing against other skilled players is a challenge. it's a true test of your skill when the only advantage and disadvantage you have against your opponents is your own skill. Playing against other players who are higher level or have more gear may be more difficult, but it's not a true test of skill, more so a reflection of who's been playing the longest.
There is no group strategy in a lot of the PvP in MMOs the only one i can think of that has it is Eve. And most of that is to select a primary and let rip, boring....................
In other games PvP happens to fast for an group strategy to be implemented on the fly, any strategy that is used is pre planned and not really engaging. At the very least you all need to be on voice comms, as that would be absolutely neccessay, even in Eve, for any group strategy to work. (an expcetion to the above maybe Arena pvp, not sure as i have never done it).
And group strategy is far more entertaining then single stargegy any day of the week and twcie on Sunday!
Simple answer: I play games for fun, not achievement. PvP is subject to too many balance issues to be fun (for me). PvE is reliable fun.
What is the reasoning behind such a concern for balance, if you're only doing it to have fun?
Another question I have in regard to PVP "balance" is what do you mean by balance, in an RPG rule-set?
I've always played dps oriented characters, which means I die a lot in PVP. It comes with the trade, only so many times is your ability of surprise going to pay off at end game levels. When you're factoring in epic level gear, and stat increases etc.. You're just going to lose a lot as a class with weak defense.
Glass canons have it even worse in this regard.
I still have fun during every fight, win or lose.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What makes you think you have to "accomplish" anything? I'm playing a game for entertainment, to have a good time, to waste free time when I have nothing better to do. I'm not trying to live vicariously through a video game. I get a sense of accomplishment through other areas of my life. I could play Tetris, for example, for hours on end. Did I "accomplish" anything? Of course not, I stacked blocks, but it was fun while it lasted and I can look forward to doing it again next time. It's like watching a good TV show, you can have a good time doing it, you can want to see the next episode and it gives you something to talk about with your friends.
I don't play games to be competitive, in fact, I absolutely refuse to compete with anyone. I play to have fun. PvE gives me that fun. PvP absolutely does not.
Now I really am not trying to belittle the PVE players here, for I too do love some PVE with friends. The focus of this thread is all based around one question. What exactly do you feel as though you have accomplished in a game by defeating a Human programmed bot in a game over and over again with the same paths that have no choices on how to change their movements/strats/skills/abilities?
In a solo friendly game like WoW that's a rush to the level cap so you can Raid? Well, I haven't accomplished anything.
In a group centric game like DaoC where you PvE with other players and coordinate a group in order to beat mobs, gain new skills, and move on to the next area or dungeon?
For me its facing a certain challenge and overcoming that challenge before i am meant to. eg. making the journey from faydark to lavastorm mountains in the origanal Everquest when everything was blood red to me. Just because things are scripted does not mean there is no challenge. There are many intellegent Devs out there who work very hard to challenge us. now if you ever played the origanal Everquest you would know that to enter the Lair of nagefen and try to reach the Red dragon himself to take a peek without getting killed was one of the games greatest challenges! unless you had the comany of 30 to 40 high level players! PVE all depends on how you challenge yourself. do you wait till the right level before taking on said dungeon or do you try to beat it before it was designed to be beaten? While on the other hand most PVP games i have played consist of higher level players ganking newer players. Darkfall is my prime example. the higher players would run from players who were higher than themselves...but camp the starter area's as it was easy cash/loot! ...now i ask you....where is the challenge in that?
well see, that's why i was saying griefing is silly. But then again, if you really want to look at it that way we can.
** you are now in darkfall with no skills set in to your character** ** bang dead** "WHAT tHE HELL?!!!111one." **
If you can achieve getting out of there alive, you have already accomplished something. If you can fight back and manage to kill someone on purpose/accidental , you have accomplished something. then you get the bragging rights of showing this guy/lady how bad he or she really is. *Shrugs* that the point of view from that perspective you gave me, and is typical for every game and how stuff like that should be taken.
But it's not because people don't want to rise to that challenge, because they can not handle it.
i do agree that these things can be taken as a challenge. Thats is why i stayed for 6 months. i Joined a mirdain clan and progressed a great deal, but in the end i founf that anyone i attacked who i could challenge would just run! though if i attacked anyone who had an advantage over me they would then fight back,...which i didnt mind at all. So i stayed.
The reason it fell away was i was watching these same people grief the newer players then complain that these newbies arent "hardcore" enough. but ye i'm probably talking about a minority of real pvper's here...apologies to real pvper's.
So at first i did think i was acomplishing something. only to find i was getting less out of it than for instance Call of duty!. Though admitedly my pvp is restricted to Darkfall, wow arena's and war. So i'm not that experienced
so then you honestly don't want a challenge? Skills only show what you are doing, not that you are being challenged. There is a difference.
Nope, I honestly don't want a challenge, especially one that is absurdly difficult or frustrating. I'm not playing to be frustrated, I'm playing to have a good time, nothing more, nothing less.
so then you honestly don't want a challenge? Skills only show what you are doing, not that you are being challenged. There is a difference.
Nope, I honestly don't want a challenge, especially one that is absurdly difficult or frustrating. I'm not playing to be frustrated, I'm playing to have a good time, nothing more, nothing less.
When I want a "challenge" I play a good First Person Shooter. I get killed over and over by 14 year olds that play the game all day long, and it's quite challenging. I never get as good as these twitch skill masters, but it's still fun.
When I want to play an RPG I'm not looking for a "challenge". The fun in the game is taking your time to do the content nad build yoru character.
I don't expect it to be a walk in the park, but I do expect to be able to progress through the content regardless of my lack of l33t twitch skills.
so then you honestly don't want a challenge? Skills only show what you are doing, not that you are being challenged. There is a difference.
Nope, I honestly don't want a challenge, especially one that is absurdly difficult or frustrating. I'm not playing to be frustrated, I'm playing to have a good time, nothing more, nothing less.
When I want a "challenge" I play a good First Person Shooter. I get killed over and over by 14 year olds that play the game all day long, and it's quite challenging. I never get as good as these twitch skill masters, but it's still fun.
When I want to play an RPG I'm not looking for a "challenge". The fun in the game is taking your time to do the content nad build yoru character.
I don't expect it to be a walk in the park, but I do expect to be able to progress through the content regardless of my lack of l33t twitch skills.
Great response.
The more i think about it i actually play both types. And prettymuch the same way as does Ihmotepp! i still enjoy WAR pvp, i still love my pve time and i also play CoD on the 360 for the challenge.
but i'm still not sure that RPG PVP gives me the same challenge as real pvp games do?
Simple answer: I play games for fun, not achievement. PvP is subject to too many balance issues to be fun (for me). PvE is reliable fun.
What is the reasoning behind such a concern for balance, if you're only doing it to have fun?
Another question I have in regard to PVP "balance" is what do you mean by balance, in an RPG rule-set?
I've always played dps oriented characters, which means I die a lot in PVP. It comes with the trade, only so many times is your ability of surprise going to pay off at end game levels. When you're factoring in epic level gear, and stat increases etc.. You're just going to lose a lot as a class with weak defense.
Glass canons have it even worse in this regard.
I still have fun during every fight, win or lose.
The imbalance is what makes it not fun.
I enjoy balanced PvP, but MMOs never have it .. so I play MMOs for PvE and FPS games for PvP.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I enjoy balanced PvP, but MMOs never have it .. so I play MMOs for PvE and FPS games for PvP.
That's exactly what I am inquiring about, I don't mean to seem pushy on the subject. I just see this opinion a lot, yet I never see it put plainly and in detail what this balance you're seeking is.
RPG classes aren't meant to be balanced, which makes playing a weaker class more fun IMO. When you do win you know you did so because of the effort you put in. Which is superficial of course, and really has no bearing on game-play. Yet you know that win wasn't easy.
I also like putting my build up against one made by another player, it allows you to see where you have strong points and weaknesses. Which increases the incentive to work harder at your build and put more thought behind it. RPG's translate very well into a PVP conflict if you look at them as they are.
In a FPS there's no learning involved, you point and shoot, who ever does so first wins. In an MMO things are much more reliant on strategy and knowledge, the one who possesses a greater amount of both wins, call it what you will. To me it's like playing a very intense game of chess. The best chess games I have ever had were with players more experienced than I, the same goes with Pool Mortal kombat (snes) etc... In other words the more unbalanced the match the more fun I tend to have.
That's what gaming has always been about for me.
It's not even about achievement, it's about it controlling my attention. When there's no challenge there's no reason to pay attention IMO, I might as well watch TV while I level my character. Why would I pay 15$ a month for that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That's exactly what I am inquiring about, I don't mean to seem pushy on the subject. I just see this opinion a lot, yet I never see it put plainly and in detail what this balance you're seeking is. In a FPS there's no learning involved, you point and shoot, who ever does so first wins.
Forgive the snipping. It's for brevity.
Simple answer: I don't want a fight that I have zero chance of winning. In MMOs, that can be because of level differences, over/underpowered classes, population differences, gear differences, class counters. There are a fair few situations where an MMO PvP encounter is simply unwinnable.
Regarding FPS' .. that's a dramatic oversimplification. FPS relies on speed, hand-eye coordination, reflexes and tactical positioning. The "training" is physical. This appeals to me on the basis that I have very good reflexes/coordination and as such am always able to keep up in an FPS.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
What if it is possible, and might be already, to have smart Ai in an mmorpg that is constantly changing like a player. Have the mindset of a human that recognizes the ability to change the way they perform constantly, NOT just to match the class they are going against to focus on the weakness of that class, but how they feel too?
I feel as though if something like this was implemented into a game, it would be a big hit. Granted you may have the people saying " no pvp?! what?!" Well, if you look deeper PVP fans, like myself, with smart Ai you wouldn't have to pvp because they are actually more unpredictable then your current opponent. Just an idea. People can run with it.
Good example here: Left 4 Dead 2, Expert Realism mode. Few players will say that's easy, even though it's PvE. Not that the AI is "smart", but it's dynamic, rather than scripted, and it's challenging. You can most definately make PvE challenging and unpredictable...but a good amount of MMO players out there won't like this. They want easy, predictable, and most importantly, they want a guaranteed reward for their time.
I agree though, good PvE could eliminate the need for PvP.
But a game with no challenge that lets me move up from killing rats to killing dragons is much better to a game with extreme challenge where i stay in the gutters killing rats.
In short, i want to play a powerful warrior, if the game is so tough/challenging that i can't achieve that, then the game sucks. The whole point of the character having the stats and not me is that the character is the tough smart one, i don't have to be. I just have to pretend/imagine i'm the tough smart one. You know, live a fantasy.
So a good AI would let me win, a bad AI would be very tough and never let me win.
If there's no challenge, then there's no point in playing. Might as well just have an "auto combat" button so your character can do every thing for you. Most MMOs aren't far from that as it stands now any way.
What you claim to be the failure of PvE is why I think PvE is far superior.
i have found that most people are very bad a PvP. Often times it is a disorganized zerg fest. A well organized team of average players can crush an unorganized team of great players. In PvP you have to wade through hours of garbage to get a few good games.
In PvE you can go straight to the most difficult part you can handle and be challenged all the way through. If you think that programmers cannot create an AI that responses faster and more intelligently then a human you are very mistaken. Programmers do not create content that is impossible though. They create content that is set to varying degrees of difficulty.
I can guarantee that there is PvE content out there in games that would kick your butt.
My experience has been that people who prefer PvP over PvE do not work well in groups, do not know how to sacrifice personal glory for the good of the team, and do not ever come in contact with the really hard part content.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
so then you honestly don't want a challenge? Skills only show what you are doing, not that you are being challenged. There is a difference.
Nope, I honestly don't want a challenge, especially one that is absurdly difficult or frustrating. I'm not playing to be frustrated, I'm playing to have a good time, nothing more, nothing less.
When I want a "challenge" I play a good First Person Shooter. I get killed over and over by 14 year olds that play the game all day long, and it's quite challenging. I never get as good as these twitch skill masters, but it's still fun.
When I want to play an RPG I'm not looking for a "challenge". The fun in the game is taking your time to do the content nad build yoru character.
I don't expect it to be a walk in the park, but I do expect to be able to progress through the content regardless of my lack of l33t twitch skills.
Personally, I don't play online FPS games either, I have no interest in getting killed over and over and over again by idiots with no lives. Any of the FPS games I play, I play purely the single-player content and nothing online at all. I'm just not interested.
I keep looking for the fun that I got through playing EQ1 the first 7 years. Even with the problems it was challenging. I do tend to stay away from PVP, due to the gank fest that had happened on the few that I tried. I do understand that some players like that type of play, but it just is not for me. I do not like the pve that is too easy either. I know eq2 and wow were not too challenging, for me anyway. I lasted maybe a couple of weeks, and got very bored with those two.
My daughter tells me Realm vs realm is much better. She was a big Camelot fan. Dark Solestice looks like it may be like that, and I will give that one a try. Otherwise, not much out there that I have read about that looks interesting. Anyway my point of view, and what I look for in a pve game. Is challenge, not wanting anything too easy, and so far it is not there for me. Not sure if this info was any help to you, but hope so.
For some people, like myself, what is accomplished in PvE is having the experience of fighting a monster in what hopefully is a credible fantasy setting.
If my focus was on beating other people, I would play a sport, or chess, or poker, or some other real life competitive undertaking. When I am in a fantasy world, I am there because my main objective is to feel like I am in a fantasy world. Sure, I would like to see AI improvements. There are a lot of things I hope to see improve in years to come that are lacking in PvE.
But what I don't want is to have my immersion broken by "U suxxorz lolololo pwned u nub" or /spit, which tends to go hand in hand with fighting other players.
Wow. That is REALLY well put. I kind of agree. Although...I wouldn't want to eliminate PvP from MMOs really. I would just like everyone that PvPs to have to pass an IQ test, and perhaps some sort of maturity analysis. So....since we know that will never happen (invasion of privacy and whatnot)....I guess we're sort of stuck with the "u suxxor lol pwnd joo n00b" crowd to one degree or another. Thankfully, there are at least SOME PvP'ers that don't behave that way.
I only ask this because I myself feel as though it's pointless.
So you've never enjoyed a non-multiplayer game? Its not necessarily about accomplishing something. I for one don't play video games at all to prove anything to myself or anyone else. If its fun, its fun. When I do something in a game, be it pvp or pve, I don't think "Ha! I really achieved something there!" I merely think "That was fun"
In original WoW, the number two killer mob was the Defias Pillager. It was a mage mob that would cast fireballs and a damage dot. This was a lowbee mob for the most part, level 15 or so. When it got low health, it would run and aggro other mobs.
Murlocs used to come to the aide of other murlocs and heal.
This smarter AI has been nerfed, now mobs only heal one time. The Defias Pillager has had it's damage nerfed.
This was probably done to make it easier for casual players.
Comments
But that was my point exactly, why should it be balanced?
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
Because it's not truly in the spirit of competition if it is unbalanced.
It's like having a minor league, and a major league team facing off against each other. Sure it may be good for some laughs to see how badly the minor league team gets beaten, but it would get old fast, especially knowing that the major league team is going to win. An exciting competition is when you don't know who's going to win, and both sides give their best, because their full abilities are actually challenged.
If you don't want a balanced challenge, why not just play a single player game and either impose a huge handicap on yourself, or use cheatcodes to become ridiculously overpowered? it's effectively the same thing... fun for some, boring as dirt for most others.
Because being the 'underdog' is not really fun in the long run. It might be fun fighting your way to vicotory when the odds are stacked against you but if you are forced to do this all the time it stops being fun and starts being tedious.
Also players want acknowledgement of their skills and abilities. If you lose against a character that is overpowered, you might actually be a more skilled player but will never be acknowledged as that (or you could just be a sore loser). A 'fair' fight settles the issue of who is more skilled which an unblanced fight cannot.
so then you honestly don't want a challenge? Skills only show what you are doing, not that you are being challenged. There is a difference.
www.roxstudiodesigns.com
Everything else equal, playing against other skilled players is a challenge. it's a true test of your skill when the only advantage and disadvantage you have against your opponents is your own skill. Playing against other players who are higher level or have more gear may be more difficult, but it's not a true test of skill, more so a reflection of who's been playing the longest.
There is no group strategy in a lot of the PvP in MMOs the only one i can think of that has it is Eve. And most of that is to select a primary and let rip, boring....................
In other games PvP happens to fast for an group strategy to be implemented on the fly, any strategy that is used is pre planned and not really engaging. At the very least you all need to be on voice comms, as that would be absolutely neccessay, even in Eve, for any group strategy to work. (an expcetion to the above maybe Arena pvp, not sure as i have never done it).
And group strategy is far more entertaining then single stargegy any day of the week and twcie on Sunday!
What is the reasoning behind such a concern for balance, if you're only doing it to have fun?
Another question I have in regard to PVP "balance" is what do you mean by balance, in an RPG rule-set?
I've always played dps oriented characters, which means I die a lot in PVP. It comes with the trade, only so many times is your ability of surprise going to pay off at end game levels. When you're factoring in epic level gear, and stat increases etc.. You're just going to lose a lot as a class with weak defense.
Glass canons have it even worse in this regard.
I still have fun during every fight, win or lose.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
What makes you think you have to "accomplish" anything? I'm playing a game for entertainment, to have a good time, to waste free time when I have nothing better to do. I'm not trying to live vicariously through a video game. I get a sense of accomplishment through other areas of my life. I could play Tetris, for example, for hours on end. Did I "accomplish" anything? Of course not, I stacked blocks, but it was fun while it lasted and I can look forward to doing it again next time. It's like watching a good TV show, you can have a good time doing it, you can want to see the next episode and it gives you something to talk about with your friends.
I don't play games to be competitive, in fact, I absolutely refuse to compete with anyone. I play to have fun. PvE gives me that fun. PvP absolutely does not.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
In a solo friendly game like WoW that's a rush to the level cap so you can Raid? Well, I haven't accomplished anything.
In a group centric game like DaoC where you PvE with other players and coordinate a group in order to beat mobs, gain new skills, and move on to the next area or dungeon?
Well, I've accomplished having fun.
well see, that's why i was saying griefing is silly. But then again, if you really want to look at it that way we can.
** you are now in darkfall with no skills set in to your character** ** bang dead** "WHAT tHE HELL?!!!111one." **
If you can achieve getting out of there alive, you have already accomplished something. If you can fight back and manage to kill someone on purpose/accidental , you have accomplished something. then you get the bragging rights of showing this guy/lady how bad he or she really is. *Shrugs* that the point of view from that perspective you gave me, and is typical for every game and how stuff like that should be taken.
But it's not because people don't want to rise to that challenge, because they can not handle it.
i do agree that these things can be taken as a challenge. Thats is why i stayed for 6 months. i Joined a mirdain clan and progressed a great deal, but in the end i founf that anyone i attacked who i could challenge would just run! though if i attacked anyone who had an advantage over me they would then fight back,...which i didnt mind at all. So i stayed.
The reason it fell away was i was watching these same people grief the newer players then complain that these newbies arent "hardcore" enough. but ye i'm probably talking about a minority of real pvper's here...apologies to real pvper's.
So at first i did think i was acomplishing something. only to find i was getting less out of it than for instance Call of duty!. Though admitedly my pvp is restricted to Darkfall, wow arena's and war. So i'm not that experienced
Nope, I honestly don't want a challenge, especially one that is absurdly difficult or frustrating. I'm not playing to be frustrated, I'm playing to have a good time, nothing more, nothing less.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Nope, I honestly don't want a challenge, especially one that is absurdly difficult or frustrating. I'm not playing to be frustrated, I'm playing to have a good time, nothing more, nothing less.
When I want a "challenge" I play a good First Person Shooter. I get killed over and over by 14 year olds that play the game all day long, and it's quite challenging. I never get as good as these twitch skill masters, but it's still fun.
When I want to play an RPG I'm not looking for a "challenge". The fun in the game is taking your time to do the content nad build yoru character.
I don't expect it to be a walk in the park, but I do expect to be able to progress through the content regardless of my lack of l33t twitch skills.
Nope, I honestly don't want a challenge, especially one that is absurdly difficult or frustrating. I'm not playing to be frustrated, I'm playing to have a good time, nothing more, nothing less.
When I want a "challenge" I play a good First Person Shooter. I get killed over and over by 14 year olds that play the game all day long, and it's quite challenging. I never get as good as these twitch skill masters, but it's still fun.
When I want to play an RPG I'm not looking for a "challenge". The fun in the game is taking your time to do the content nad build yoru character.
I don't expect it to be a walk in the park, but I do expect to be able to progress through the content regardless of my lack of l33t twitch skills.
Great response.
The more i think about it i actually play both types. And prettymuch the same way as does Ihmotepp! i still enjoy WAR pvp, i still love my pve time and i also play CoD on the 360 for the challenge.
but i'm still not sure that RPG PVP gives me the same challenge as real pvp games do?
What is the reasoning behind such a concern for balance, if you're only doing it to have fun?
Another question I have in regard to PVP "balance" is what do you mean by balance, in an RPG rule-set?
I've always played dps oriented characters, which means I die a lot in PVP. It comes with the trade, only so many times is your ability of surprise going to pay off at end game levels. When you're factoring in epic level gear, and stat increases etc.. You're just going to lose a lot as a class with weak defense.
Glass canons have it even worse in this regard.
I still have fun during every fight, win or lose.
The imbalance is what makes it not fun.
I enjoy balanced PvP, but MMOs never have it .. so I play MMOs for PvE and FPS games for PvP.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The imbalance is what makes it not fun.
I enjoy balanced PvP, but MMOs never have it .. so I play MMOs for PvE and FPS games for PvP.
That's exactly what I am inquiring about, I don't mean to seem pushy on the subject. I just see this opinion a lot, yet I never see it put plainly and in detail what this balance you're seeking is.
RPG classes aren't meant to be balanced, which makes playing a weaker class more fun IMO. When you do win you know you did so because of the effort you put in. Which is superficial of course, and really has no bearing on game-play. Yet you know that win wasn't easy.
I also like putting my build up against one made by another player, it allows you to see where you have strong points and weaknesses. Which increases the incentive to work harder at your build and put more thought behind it. RPG's translate very well into a PVP conflict if you look at them as they are.
In a FPS there's no learning involved, you point and shoot, who ever does so first wins. In an MMO things are much more reliant on strategy and knowledge, the one who possesses a greater amount of both wins, call it what you will. To me it's like playing a very intense game of chess. The best chess games I have ever had were with players more experienced than I, the same goes with Pool Mortal kombat (snes) etc... In other words the more unbalanced the match the more fun I tend to have.
That's what gaming has always been about for me.
It's not even about achievement, it's about it controlling my attention. When there's no challenge there's no reason to pay attention IMO, I might as well watch TV while I level my character. Why would I pay 15$ a month for that?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Forgive the snipping. It's for brevity.
Simple answer: I don't want a fight that I have zero chance of winning. In MMOs, that can be because of level differences, over/underpowered classes, population differences, gear differences, class counters. There are a fair few situations where an MMO PvP encounter is simply unwinnable.
Regarding FPS' .. that's a dramatic oversimplification. FPS relies on speed, hand-eye coordination, reflexes and tactical positioning. The "training" is physical. This appeals to me on the basis that I have very good reflexes/coordination and as such am always able to keep up in an FPS.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Good example here: Left 4 Dead 2, Expert Realism mode. Few players will say that's easy, even though it's PvE. Not that the AI is "smart", but it's dynamic, rather than scripted, and it's challenging. You can most definately make PvE challenging and unpredictable...but a good amount of MMO players out there won't like this. They want easy, predictable, and most importantly, they want a guaranteed reward for their time.
I agree though, good PvE could eliminate the need for PvP.
Some challenge is okay. Too much is not okay.
But a game with no challenge that lets me move up from killing rats to killing dragons is much better to a game with extreme challenge where i stay in the gutters killing rats.
In short, i want to play a powerful warrior, if the game is so tough/challenging that i can't achieve that, then the game sucks. The whole point of the character having the stats and not me is that the character is the tough smart one, i don't have to be. I just have to pretend/imagine i'm the tough smart one. You know, live a fantasy.
So a good AI would let me win, a bad AI would be very tough and never let me win.
If there's no challenge, then there's no point in playing. Might as well just have an "auto combat" button so your character can do every thing for you. Most MMOs aren't far from that as it stands now any way.
What you claim to be the failure of PvE is why I think PvE is far superior.
i have found that most people are very bad a PvP. Often times it is a disorganized zerg fest. A well organized team of average players can crush an unorganized team of great players. In PvP you have to wade through hours of garbage to get a few good games.
In PvE you can go straight to the most difficult part you can handle and be challenged all the way through. If you think that programmers cannot create an AI that responses faster and more intelligently then a human you are very mistaken. Programmers do not create content that is impossible though. They create content that is set to varying degrees of difficulty.
I can guarantee that there is PvE content out there in games that would kick your butt.
My experience has been that people who prefer PvP over PvE do not work well in groups, do not know how to sacrifice personal glory for the good of the team, and do not ever come in contact with the really hard part content.
--John Ruskin
Nope, I honestly don't want a challenge, especially one that is absurdly difficult or frustrating. I'm not playing to be frustrated, I'm playing to have a good time, nothing more, nothing less.
When I want a "challenge" I play a good First Person Shooter. I get killed over and over by 14 year olds that play the game all day long, and it's quite challenging. I never get as good as these twitch skill masters, but it's still fun.
When I want to play an RPG I'm not looking for a "challenge". The fun in the game is taking your time to do the content nad build yoru character.
I don't expect it to be a walk in the park, but I do expect to be able to progress through the content regardless of my lack of l33t twitch skills.
Personally, I don't play online FPS games either, I have no interest in getting killed over and over and over again by idiots with no lives. Any of the FPS games I play, I play purely the single-player content and nothing online at all. I'm just not interested.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I keep looking for the fun that I got through playing EQ1 the first 7 years. Even with the problems it was challenging. I do tend to stay away from PVP, due to the gank fest that had happened on the few that I tried. I do understand that some players like that type of play, but it just is not for me. I do not like the pve that is too easy either. I know eq2 and wow were not too challenging, for me anyway. I lasted maybe a couple of weeks, and got very bored with those two.
My daughter tells me Realm vs realm is much better. She was a big Camelot fan. Dark Solestice looks like it may be like that, and I will give that one a try. Otherwise, not much out there that I have read about that looks interesting. Anyway my point of view, and what I look for in a pve game. Is challenge, not wanting anything too easy, and so far it is not there for me. Not sure if this info was any help to you, but hope so.
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/mhoward48/media/OnwYv97.jpg.html
Wow. That is REALLY well put. I kind of agree. Although...I wouldn't want to eliminate PvP from MMOs really. I would just like everyone that PvPs to have to pass an IQ test, and perhaps some sort of maturity analysis. So....since we know that will never happen (invasion of privacy and whatnot)....I guess we're sort of stuck with the "u suxxor lol pwnd joo n00b" crowd to one degree or another. Thankfully, there are at least SOME PvP'ers that don't behave that way.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
So you've never enjoyed a non-multiplayer game? Its not necessarily about accomplishing something. I for one don't play video games at all to prove anything to myself or anyone else. If its fun, its fun. When I do something in a game, be it pvp or pve, I don't think "Ha! I really achieved something there!" I merely think "That was fun"
In original WoW, the number two killer mob was the Defias Pillager. It was a mage mob that would cast fireballs and a damage dot. This was a lowbee mob for the most part, level 15 or so. When it got low health, it would run and aggro other mobs.
Murlocs used to come to the aide of other murlocs and heal.
This smarter AI has been nerfed, now mobs only heal one time. The Defias Pillager has had it's damage nerfed.
This was probably done to make it easier for casual players.
But yeah, WoW used to have one of the better AIs.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren