Everyone is influencing the game experience for each other whether it be negative or positive, its still influenced and it impacts people's overall satisfaction. Companies have to ensure customers are satisfied in general hence this article.
That is false. There are no MMOs out there where the player's actions change the world for other players. Therefore no other players affect my gameplay.
I go on quests and if someone that goes with me ruins it for me I don't group with them anymore. Just like in any non-MMO multiplayer game, if someone is bothering you then you put them on a list not to play with them anymore.
Literally other people in MMOs can affect your personal gameplay to the same degree as any multiplayer game. And just like all those other games you have the same means to stop them, ignoring them, squelching them, reporting them, adding them to a list to know not to group with them.
Sure it's a world with more people in it then most other multiplayer games, but the multiplayer functionality is still the same. Once MMOs start (if ever) to have worlds where each players actions actually transform the world for everyone else for the rest of time you may have a point. But we're not anywhere close to that type of game yet.
But yet, you prove my very point in your own post. This has nothing to do with players influencing the environment, its about players influencing each other. That was the whole point.
Someone bothering you was some kind of interaction despite any of your denials which affected your game experience. Hence, in turn to help alleviate that, you don't play with them anymore. This is what I was talking about, now imagine a massive group of people of all sorts. What if the game design encouraged the community to be bad, to interact horribly with each other? You don't think that could affect how a player's game experience in that world would be affected? If everyone played a particular game because griefing (poor player interaction) was the best way to play the game, how long would you think that game would last?
The company has goal and it is primarily about profit, but if a Community Manager isn't there to nurture the community appropriately, the game can easily fall apart no matter how polished the game is based on poor player interaction. And I can tell your perspective of MMO is a fairly shallow (short-sighted, skin deep) one because you're belief that multiplayer functionality especially to the one I alluded to (Halo) is actually the same as the way an MMO works. I would love to see you list the similarities aside from the fact that it includes more than 1 player.
A player in any type of multiplayer game can use language I don't want to hear, spam communications, or grief gameplay. This is the same for all types of multiplayer situations including MMOs. There is nothing additional in an MMO that a player can suddenly do to affect you any further. In all multiplayer games you can squelch/mute, ignore, decide not to interact with a given player again.
Yet in no other type of multiplayer game do the players demand to have a community involving the developers and to get a say in how the game is created. So using that reason to explain why an MMO needs a community is not valid.
And yes I view MMOs as games, not a lifestyle. As such I treat it as a game, I play, I have fun, and I log off. If it becomes not fun then I quit the game. People who treat MMOs as something other then a game are also a bit out of touch with reality.
I agree with you on this one 100% Jon. Building community is about communication and trust. An emphasis on marketting seems to undermine these things.
Sadly, I've seen a real shift away from actual community building. CMs are now being used more often to set up network marketting recruitment campaigns, and to push the latest RMT items on their own game forums.
I also see them being asked to do a lot of damage control when something about a game isn't working. In the past, CMs would communicate with players to get feedback that would help devs address real problems. More recently they seem to occupy two main roles: marketting coordinator and spin-doctor. Both of these roles tend to sour the community feeling.
I couldn't agree more. I have always viewed what a CMs job should be like this...
He's like the guy who got into the friends & family alpha and got to hang out with the devs during development, and has been there from day 1. He's one of "us", but has the dev's ear and knows what he's talking about. He's the guy whose word we trust, not like those marketing suits or the bean-counters who are just in it for the money. He's a gamer, in it for the love of the game. He's one of us...
Everyone is influencing the game experience for each other whether it be negative or positive, its still influenced and it impacts people's overall satisfaction. Companies have to ensure customers are satisfied in general hence this article.
That is false. There are no MMOs out there where the player's actions change the world for other players. Therefore no other players affect my gameplay.
I go on quests and if someone that goes with me ruins it for me I don't group with them anymore. Just like in any non-MMO multiplayer game, if someone is bothering you then you put them on a list not to play with them anymore.
Literally other people in MMOs can affect your personal gameplay to the same degree as any multiplayer game. And just like all those other games you have the same means to stop them, ignoring them, squelching them, reporting them, adding them to a list to know not to group with them.
Sure it's a world with more people in it then most other multiplayer games, but the multiplayer functionality is still the same. Once MMOs start (if ever) to have worlds where each players actions actually transform the world for everyone else for the rest of time you may have a point. But we're not anywhere close to that type of game yet.
I couldn't help noticing that the poster you are responding to never claimed that players change the gaming world. The point was simply that players influence the gaming experience for others. The point, imo, is correct.
Griefing, for example, does not change the game world per se. The code remains the same. It most certainly affects gaming experience though. How griefing is managed is quite literally community management.
Also, due to the complexity of MMO games, numerous bugs or issues may make gameplay frustrating or even impossible in certain areas. Does this impact players' experience? Most certainly. They need channels to provide meaningful feedback to developers about these issues. The CM can skillfully manage these communication channels to ensure a helpful response and a satisfied customer.
CMs that are busy marketting and recruiting often don't seem to do a good job at promoting the kind of community that makes MMOs immersive and enjoyable.
It's not just the players that lose when this happens. Customers who are routinely griefed, or consistently frustrated by bugs and issues tend to move on. Populations suffer and MMOs begin to lack an important ingredient; they cease to be massively multiplayer and become ghost towns.
P.S. All that aside, I've played 2 MMOs where my actions did physcially change the landscape for other players. In city of heroes I could take control of pillboxes that made the zone more hazardous for enemy players. I could also spawn archvillains in the zone, directly by my actions. The appearance of the zones also changed. In StarWars Galaxies I could contruct bases and turrets that would affect other players in PvP and PvE. Players who strayed too close to my automatic turrets could have their rides blasted out from under them. They could be left stranded without transportation, have expensive repairs, and/or be killed. I'd say that affected their game experience in a fairly significant way. Also, if one faction created too many bases in one area, the lag made gameplay a real pain in the arse for everyone.
The CM isn't a good position at any MMO. You're stuck between the players complaining on one side (and often exaggerating for effect), developers who aren't going to tell you what players want to hear and dealing with groups that expect 24/7 service. It's why such positions turn over so quickly - they are just stepping stones into the 'good' jobs at MMO studios.
This isn't always the case and I feel those who aren't looking to move on are some of the best in the industry, there are many of us out there who have no desire to move onto design or other areas we thrive on interacting with the community daily.
I personally have no desire to ever work anywhere but community sure it's hell as times and there are day's you want to just ban the entire forum (note to self get web dev to implement that button) But those day's are usually far outweighed by the days where you feel you have genuinely made a difference to your player bases experience.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf So why do players of MMOs feel they are OWED a community and a direct link to the devs?
I think it is the other way around. The makers of mmo's wants the audience to buy the game and keep playing it. So they want to keep the audience happy. Listening to what their audience wants might be in their own best interest.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf So why do players of MMOs feel they are OWED a community and a direct link to the devs?
I think it is the other way around. The makers of mmo's wants the audience to buy the game and keep playing it. So they want to keep the audience happy. Listening to what their audience wants might be in their own best interest.
It's a bit of both.
From a company standpoint you want and need that interaction to keep players on board to get the best feedback you can to make the best game you can.
A lot of MMOers do have this chip on there shoulder and feel THEY have to be listened to, I myself am like this in whatever game interests me at that time.
You find this crowd to be at the worst during beta where they seem to feel you have to make a game exactly the way they want it and if you aren't then your ignorant to the playerbase, you didn't do your job properley and because you didn't make the Ranger they are going to play grossly overpowered you didn't communicate they're concerns to dev correctly.
What a lot forget is A: Your working to a design spec B:The game is about the overall community not that player as a individual.
TBH that is the most difficult part of the role picking the consistent requests and complaints from a entire playerbase that spans multiple websites, in game and other areas of discussion then presenting them in a manner that manipulates dev to the playerbases will.
Feature Y is great but X needs some work. Feature Y could be hopelessly broken but X is more of a priority so you have to present in a manner that gets you what the community wants then Y can be revisited.
You often have to play the community in a similar way when you perhaps feel they're concern isn't gaining the merit it should and a well under-moderated post can go a long way.
It's a at times very devious and manipulative role to play but that is where the good CM's shine.
I think what companies need is the vision of a dying poor gamer. People don't want to and most can't pay for subscriptions.
Sure there's still lot's of people who will, but overall that's what's killing most MMO's.
Overall it's a good article for office use. Yes, players shouldn't really be dealing with the business end of the game, just the fun parts and the people that portray that.
First of all – marketing doesn’t mean money corrupted liars (that’s the basic thing you got wrong and that’s why your entire article is nothing more than a misinformed rant). At least not nowadays and more companies are leaning towards a transparent and honest way of promoting their products.
Do you honestly think that a person who just reports to and from the community can make any sort of impact in a company? Do you think that a CM would have his job for a long time if he started moaning about the game he works for on the forum, and what’s stopping a marketer from telling his bosses that the player don’t like this or that?
Marketers are not some high hippies who only see and talk about the good sides of the product. Being a good marketer is first and most of all knowing your audience well and understanding where its needs and expectations meet with the company’s targets and capabilities.
You need to get out media dark ages and talk to some marketers – and I’m not talking about 50+ gray haired car salesmen. Trust me you'd be surprised how things changed in the new generation...
Ensuring your playerbase thinks you are being fair with them is crucial to any MMO. That used to be the priority of a community manger. This is just another example of corporate culture infiltrating every area of MMO’s. Marketing and profit is now the priority of every member of staff.
That is so true, I am studying Marketing in school and knowing your consumer base. If you know who you want to see the "ads" you have to make sure that 1. the people you are trying to reach have a clear understanding of the product your promoting, 2. you have to be able to answer any and all questions anyone has. It can be really tough to be a marketer if the person you are talking to has a negative attitude about said product, so sometimes you have to be able to say when.
You cant please everyone so expecting to do so isnt going to help your company grow; the only way for it to really grow is learning to listen to the community as a whole and fix what needs to be fixed.
Kristina Linger AkashaGunn lvl 92 Cleric Epith server
I really liked this article, especially as I am working on starting some kind of project my own. It made me really reconsider some of the tasks I was going to assign to the Community Manger as your arguments seems really valid to me.
CMs have a hard job. The players ask questions and more often than not, the CM isn't given the answers or even the authority to provide the answer if they do know. Once and if they do answer anything, from that point forward if they don't answer all the questions then players get mad. If the CM admits that there is anything wrong with the game or deserving of criticism, then it's not simply the CM's opinion. It's that the company admits whatever it is being talked about sucks, and the next thing you see is that CM so and so has left for other opportunities and to spend more time with their family - we wish them the best. They have to take continuous abuse, and if they lose their cool even once or twice CM so and so has left for other opportunities and to spend more time with their family - we wish them the best.
If they say what character they play or what server they are on, then they are part of a conspiracy to assist their guild, class or faction. If they don't say then it's that they don't play the game and why is someone who doesn't play a CM? CMs are in a unique zone that can found directly between Rock and Hard Place.
#18 has it. I'm a CM for a major company and this pretty much says it all. I really do want to help the community in anyway I can, but often my hands are tied.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf A player in any type of multiplayer game can use language I don't want to hear, spam communications, or grief gameplay. This is the same for all types of multiplayer situations including MMOs. There is nothing additional in an MMO that a player can suddenly do to affect you any further. In all multiplayer games you can squelch/mute, ignore, decide not to interact with a given player again.
Yet in no other type of multiplayer game do the players demand to have a community involving the developers and to get a say in how the game is created. So using that reason to explain why an MMO needs a community is not valid.
And yes I view MMOs as games, not a lifestyle. As such I treat it as a game, I play, I have fun, and I log off. If it becomes not fun then I quit the game. People who treat MMOs as something other then a game are also a bit out of touch with reality.
Yet, in an MMO, you are sharing the same environment as everyone else. Even you cut off all communication with a particular player, that player can still affect you through actions depending on what limitations/freedoms have been placed on a game. If the game is completely uninstanced, you'll be sure as hell that if a player is griefing you, there will be no amount of squelching, ignoring, or sometimes even running away that can stop that person from affecting you.
Same with players in something like WoW's random LFG tool, all the squelching/muting in the world cannot stop a player from leaving your group or forcing a wipe if you're in the same environment as he is. It still affected your game experience. Even having to squelch or ignore someone or go out of your way to improve your own experience is a reflection of the community in one way or another.
With a multiplayer game, you simply can just leave the game. Most games are not designed to allow teammates to kill each other (for the most part) and limitations are placed to prevent players from doing so. It is much easier with a multiplayer game because you're not constantly sharing the same environment.
Again, lets keep things into perspective, this is not about lifestyle so I don't know where you're pulling this from. This is about significant differences between an MMORPG and multiplayer games and seeing that you never addressed this question, I'm assuming your admitting to some degree of truth in the posts you have been responding to. This goes way beyond communication, video games are not AOL chat rooms where all you need to do is cut off all communication. You're actually interacting in a virtual environment and last time I checked, actions spoke louder than words anyway.
I think MMO players are too demanding of community to begin with.
When I play FPS, RTS, racing, RPG games I don't visit their sites and talk with the developers. I also rarely do it with MMOs. Of the dozens of MMOs I've played I've only used the forums on 2 of them to date.
But yet for some reason MMO players expect all this interaction with the company, something no other game player expects or even seeks out. And then if there isn't enough talk with the players they suddenly feel slighted and that they are owed all this discussion and back and forth.
Why all of a sudden with MMOs to players demand interaction and community with the developers? They don't in other games, they don't with TV shows, they don't with movies, they don't with authors. But yet in this one specific form of entertainment it becomes expected that the company have a big community setup ready to talk to players about the game.
I know someone will say that cost is a factor, well my XBox Live account costs as much per month as an MMO. And there isn't any back and forth with Microsoft over the future and direction of XBox 360. It clearly isn't because it's a form of entertainment since no other form of entertainment offers such a thing.
So why do players of MMOs feel they are OWED a community and a direct link to the devs?
It is fairly obvious you have not played MMO's much.
If the developers are not getting a gamers view of how the game plays, they will not fix problems that can be very important to the player base.
Take DAoC for example with their Trials of Atlantis expansion. If players put in enough time they basically became gods in a pvp game. How long will the general populace stick around in a pvp game when they have to fight against basically invincible players? Sure the DAoC staff made some token changes, but they were completely unaware of the problems the average gamer was having and the changes were not even close to what they needed to do. A mass exodus from the game occurred because of this.
I can site many examples of this that has occurred in other games. UO had it's Age of Shadows expansion, EQ it's ridiculous camping, the entire AC2 game. I could go on and on providing examples of developers out of touch with their players.
MMO's are not a box you buy, play it for a month and then move on to the next game. MMO's want to retain you for a subscription for as long as they can or in a f2p game to keep spending your money in the item shop. They need the feed back from someone to keep them aware of the issues with the game.
If the player base feels that it's concerns are not being addressed, they will just leave.
I used to be a very strong contributor to the community forums for Ultima Online back when they actually had them. They had some of the greatest community managers (there were a few of them, although usually one main one that usually took charge most of the time). They were not cheerleaders for the game, but they were spokespeople for the game, and they did a great job. Then, after Trammel was introduced, the higher beings at EA decided that they didn't like the criticism they were receiving and ended the forums. It was probably the biggest mistake they ever made.
What they never realized was that a lot of the voices of the different shards were represented on the boards, and the second that the company decided it didn't want a place for those voices to discuss the game, many of us just left the game completely. I hadn't realized it until then, but I was holding onto the game, mainly because of my enjoyment of communicating with people in teh forums, and we all shared the similar desire to enjoy the game. Once they took that away, I quit the game. I ran into a lot of those senior posters years later in other games, and a lot of them said the same thing.
What companies don't realize is that even though there is a lot of criticism of their product on the forums, removing that forum is the deathknell for their game as well, especially when an active community has been built up there.
I think MMO players are too demanding of community to begin with. Too demanding? it is what we pay them for monthly, to see improvements and additional content etc etc, do you think we pay them just for fun? we pay monthly and i think we deserve to demand! When I play FPS, RTS, racing, RPG games I don't visit their sites and talk with the developers. I also rarely do it with MMOs. Of the dozens of MMOs I've played I've only used the forums on 2 of them to date. Because you've payed for the game already and your not paying monthly so you have no right to demand anything out of them (except maybe a patch or two if things really are unplayably broken, which non-MMO games rarely are, they're 99.9% of the time a finished product and MMO's aren't
I think MMO players are too demanding of community to begin with. Too demanding? it is what we pay them for monthly, to see improvements and additional content etc etc, do you think we pay them just for fun? we pay monthly and i think we deserve to demand! When I play FPS, RTS, racing, RPG games I don't visit their sites and talk with the developers. I also rarely do it with MMOs. Of the dozens of MMOs I've played I've only used the forums on 2 of them to date. Because you've payed for the game already and your not paying monthly so you have no right to demand anything out of them (except maybe a patch or two if things really are unplayably broken, which non-MMO games rarely are, they're 99.9% of the time a finished product and MMO's aren't
Replies to some really stupid points...
I pay for cable/internet/phone monthly (and it all costs more then MMOs)and I don't have a community where I talk to the people who work there. I pay for Xbox Live regularly, but don't demand a community to talk to microsoft. When I buy a new car I know I'm going to be paying for it monthly for a few years but I don't demand a community with the manufacturers.
There are a lot of businesses where you pay on a regular basis, and pay a lot more then MMOs, but people don't demand a community or think they're owed all these different things by a company. So no you're arguement is the stupid point since it misses the actual point of the post.
It's a game you play when it's fun, you don't when it's not and all the companies actually care about is numbers. They don't care about posts or rants or whining, they care what their metrics show.
They have data to show what quests people play, what point players get to before they quit, how many people stayed subbed for how long and do what. They have all the information on what actual drives their numbers. They don't need a community to do that. I think WoW has showed this many times over. They make changes that no one asked for, and many in the vocal minority scream is killing the game. But then their numbers go up another million or two. Then they do it again and again. This isn't because of their community interactions, it's because of their metrics.
I realize I take an unpopular stance when, on a forum of the die-hard MMO fans who want to have a say in every aspect of every MMO ever, I say players shouldn't feel owed an MMO. But to make a quick, undefended, hollow reason as to why doesn't really do the conversation justice.
It is fairly obvious you have not played MMO's much.
If the developers are not getting a gamers view of how the game plays, they will not fix problems that can be very important to the player base.
Take DAoC for example with their Trials of Atlantis expansion. If players put in enough time they basically became gods in a pvp game. How long will the general populace stick around in a pvp game when they have to fight against basically invincible players? Sure the DAoC staff made some token changes, but they were completely unaware of the problems the average gamer was having and the changes were not even close to what they needed to do. A mass exodus from the game occurred because of this.
I can site many examples of this that has occurred in other games. UO had it's Age of Shadows expansion, EQ it's ridiculous camping, the entire AC2 game. I could go on and on providing examples of developers out of touch with their players.
MMO's are not a box you buy, play it for a month and then move on to the next game. MMO's want to retain you for a subscription for as long as they can or in a f2p game to keep spending your money in the item shop. They need the feed back from someone to keep them aware of the issues with the game.
If the player base feels that it's concerns are not being addressed, they will just leave.
I started playing MMOs with The Realm, and then I've played just about every major, and some minor, release since then. I have had at least once MMO account subbed each month for a good 12 years. So yes I think I have some experience with MMOs.
As I said in my reply to a different post. MMOs have deep metrics, they can measure and monitor many aspects of their game. And since such a small percentage of a player base even visits a companies forums they can't use what those players say as accurate information anyways. So yes a game can have a bad release, but their metrics are telling them that (and more accurately what issues are) faster then the small group of players that posts on the forums.
MMO's are as simple as a game you play, for the majority of the player base. The players that post on forums such as this, or official game forums are not the majority. They are a major minority. So that minority takes an MMO to be something far more then a game, but the majority of any MMOs player base is average people who just want to play a game and have fun. Do they want to keep those customers? Of course but they do so by simply keeping it fun, not through listening to every die hard fans complaint.
An interesting topic and an opinion I would tend to agree with.
I was playing Age of Conan through the tail-end of beta and for the first couple of months after launch. It was during this period that all respect I ever had, or would ever had for Failcom, completely dissolved. It was that there were so many problems with the game post-release. This was expected and accepted. It was the company's stubborn refusal to not only address those problems, but to even acknowledge they even existed. Game breaking bug after game breaking bug was being reported and nothing was ever mentioned about them. The complaints were rising to a deafening crescendo, and all the feedback we were getting from Failcom was how wonderfully awesome everything was going with the game, and how the future was indeed bright.
Not only was what we were getting out of the company in response to our concerns, lies and misdirection, but it was also ham-fisted and stupidly obtuse lies and misdirection. A buggy game at release is forgivable, and even expected these days. What's unforgivable is a complete lack of honesty and respect for the folks that are paying for you to stay in business.
Because of the way the this company handled that episode, they've lost me as a client for good. Perhaps if they'd had a few straight-shooters out there dealing with the community instead of the slimy hacks writing their press releases, I'd be willing to give them another shot. Instead, now I turn quickly away from anything I see sporting their logo.
Maybe you need to forward this article over to Gpotato`s CM, cause god knows shes part of the marketing team and does a great job of political spin! Ask anyone who just got the word tonight that the prices for Allods CS is final! ($20 for 6 extra slots of bagspace for starters!) If this trend keeps up F2P model will die out from greed!
I think MMO players are too demanding of community to begin with. Too demanding? it is what we pay them for monthly, to see improvements and additional content etc etc, do you think we pay them just for fun? we pay monthly and i think we deserve to demand! When I play FPS, RTS, racing, RPG games I don't visit their sites and talk with the developers. I also rarely do it with MMOs. Of the dozens of MMOs I've played I've only used the forums on 2 of them to date. Because you've payed for the game already and your not paying monthly so you have no right to demand anything out of them (except maybe a patch or two if things really are unplayably broken, which non-MMO games rarely are, they're 99.9% of the time a finished product and MMO's aren't
Replies to some really stupid points...
I pay for cable/internet/phone monthly (and it all costs more then MMOs)and I don't have a community where I talk to the people who work there. I pay for Xbox Live regularly, but don't demand a community to talk to microsoft. When I buy a new car I know I'm going to be paying for it monthly for a few years but I don't demand a community with the manufacturers.
There are a lot of businesses where you pay on a regular basis, and pay a lot more then MMOs, but people don't demand a community or think they're owed all these different things by a company. So no you're arguement is the stupid point since it misses the actual point of the post.
It's a game you play when it's fun, you don't when it's not and all the companies actually care about is numbers. They don't care about posts or rants or whining, they care what their metrics show.
They have data to show what quests people play, what point players get to before they quit, how many people stayed subbed for how long and do what. They have all the information on what actual drives their numbers. They don't need a community to do that. I think WoW has showed this many times over. They make changes that no one asked for, and many in the vocal minority scream is killing the game. But then their numbers go up another million or two. Then they do it again and again. This isn't because of their community interactions, it's because of their metrics.
I realize I take an unpopular stance when, on a forum of the die-hard MMO fans who want to have a say in every aspect of every MMO ever, I say players shouldn't feel owed an MMO. But to make a quick, undefended, hollow reason as to why doesn't really do the conversation justice.
People don't want a community with their car dealership because there's nothing massively multiplayer about buying a car. MMOs are by their very nature community oriented. Refining them (due to bugs and issues) and continuing to add content to them is best done in collaboration wtih the playing community--if you want them to continuing playing that is.
Also, you highlight a problem I've mentioned elsewhere regarding MMO market research. I think you're right that they look exclusively at their metrics. What's wrong with that? They have no idea what the numbers mean without community input. Case in point, SOE said their metrics led them to delete professions that turned out to be very popular. After the game in question became an epic screw-up (in the words of its own lead developer btw) what was blamed? Bad data-mining. AKA completely misreading the metrics. How did they misread them so badly? They turned a deaf ear to their playing community. Smed described this as his cardinal sin btw. I agree with him on this point.
Yes lets talk about data mining. I will point at SWG for sure, they said we see what that data mining lead too.
Now I will point at LOTRO with their data mining. We got rad gear, and LI's. Both of these are the most hotly debated topic. In fact so hot the past 2 weeks the CM put up a thing saying tell the devs what you would like to change about both. They are getting an earfull.
However we see the CM locking, and pruning upshoot threads leaft and right, Espically the ones that say I bet they do nothing. In fact 3 months after MOM rolled out things had gotten so hot in the forums, the CM posted and said "Our players love Randiance gear and LI's thoese will not be changing" WE already had one revamp to LI's.
This is the problem with some CM's and some companies, they don't like hearing from the player base, because of their ego. The fact is most companies choose a path to go down, and they don't like hearing they messed it up.
If your going to have a cm it needs to be somebody who can remain open about negative thoughts from the comunity otherwise all they become is another fan who shouts the mal contents down. We see this over and over and over.
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf I realize I take an unpopular stance when, on a forum of the die-hard MMO fans who want to have a say in every aspect of every MMO ever, I say players shouldn't feel owed an MMO. But to make a quick, undefended, hollow reason as to why doesn't really do the conversation justice.
It's not only an unpopular stance, its practically unjustifiable and despite listed experience, it definitely isn't reflected. Whether a game is an MMORPG or a non-MMORPG (even single-player game), the company creates games FOR players. Not for themselves or they wouldn't bother publishing them, it's for other people. Even Non-MMORPG games come out with balance patches and bug fixes to make the games more enjoyable. It just so happens that an MMORPG has more longevity than a regular video game.
No one ever said we were owed an MMO, but for the sake of customer satisfaction, companies are bound to listening to their customers to keep the game fun for everyone. Hardcore or not, we are still a portion of the player population and I don't think that many of the forum posters are as hardcore as you think we are, we are just the minority that like to express an opinion.
If you firmly believe that developers shouldn't have to listen to their customer or worry about the satisfaction of their community, then why are YOU even posting on these forums in the first place? There would be no point for places like this if companies never had to cater to players' thoughts, opinions and beliefs. If our opinions never mattered, I believe there would be a lot more people less inclined to even bother expressing an opinion.
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That is false. There are no MMOs out there where the player's actions change the world for other players. Therefore no other players affect my gameplay.
I go on quests and if someone that goes with me ruins it for me I don't group with them anymore. Just like in any non-MMO multiplayer game, if someone is bothering you then you put them on a list not to play with them anymore.
Literally other people in MMOs can affect your personal gameplay to the same degree as any multiplayer game. And just like all those other games you have the same means to stop them, ignoring them, squelching them, reporting them, adding them to a list to know not to group with them.
Sure it's a world with more people in it then most other multiplayer games, but the multiplayer functionality is still the same. Once MMOs start (if ever) to have worlds where each players actions actually transform the world for everyone else for the rest of time you may have a point. But we're not anywhere close to that type of game yet.
But yet, you prove my very point in your own post. This has nothing to do with players influencing the environment, its about players influencing each other. That was the whole point.
Someone bothering you was some kind of interaction despite any of your denials which affected your game experience. Hence, in turn to help alleviate that, you don't play with them anymore. This is what I was talking about, now imagine a massive group of people of all sorts. What if the game design encouraged the community to be bad, to interact horribly with each other? You don't think that could affect how a player's game experience in that world would be affected? If everyone played a particular game because griefing (poor player interaction) was the best way to play the game, how long would you think that game would last?
The company has goal and it is primarily about profit, but if a Community Manager isn't there to nurture the community appropriately, the game can easily fall apart no matter how polished the game is based on poor player interaction. And I can tell your perspective of MMO is a fairly shallow (short-sighted, skin deep) one because you're belief that multiplayer functionality especially to the one I alluded to (Halo) is actually the same as the way an MMO works. I would love to see you list the similarities aside from the fact that it includes more than 1 player.
A player in any type of multiplayer game can use language I don't want to hear, spam communications, or grief gameplay. This is the same for all types of multiplayer situations including MMOs. There is nothing additional in an MMO that a player can suddenly do to affect you any further. In all multiplayer games you can squelch/mute, ignore, decide not to interact with a given player again.
Yet in no other type of multiplayer game do the players demand to have a community involving the developers and to get a say in how the game is created. So using that reason to explain why an MMO needs a community is not valid.
And yes I view MMOs as games, not a lifestyle. As such I treat it as a game, I play, I have fun, and I log off. If it becomes not fun then I quit the game. People who treat MMOs as something other then a game are also a bit out of touch with reality.
I agree with you on this one 100% Jon. Building community is about communication and trust. An emphasis on marketting seems to undermine these things.
Sadly, I've seen a real shift away from actual community building. CMs are now being used more often to set up network marketting recruitment campaigns, and to push the latest RMT items on their own game forums.
I also see them being asked to do a lot of damage control when something about a game isn't working. In the past, CMs would communicate with players to get feedback that would help devs address real problems. More recently they seem to occupy two main roles: marketting coordinator and spin-doctor. Both of these roles tend to sour the community feeling.
^^ This.
That is false. There are no MMOs out there where the player's actions change the world for other players. Therefore no other players affect my gameplay.
I go on quests and if someone that goes with me ruins it for me I don't group with them anymore. Just like in any non-MMO multiplayer game, if someone is bothering you then you put them on a list not to play with them anymore.
Literally other people in MMOs can affect your personal gameplay to the same degree as any multiplayer game. And just like all those other games you have the same means to stop them, ignoring them, squelching them, reporting them, adding them to a list to know not to group with them.
Sure it's a world with more people in it then most other multiplayer games, but the multiplayer functionality is still the same. Once MMOs start (if ever) to have worlds where each players actions actually transform the world for everyone else for the rest of time you may have a point. But we're not anywhere close to that type of game yet.
I couldn't help noticing that the poster you are responding to never claimed that players change the gaming world. The point was simply that players influence the gaming experience for others. The point, imo, is correct.
Griefing, for example, does not change the game world per se. The code remains the same. It most certainly affects gaming experience though. How griefing is managed is quite literally community management.
Also, due to the complexity of MMO games, numerous bugs or issues may make gameplay frustrating or even impossible in certain areas. Does this impact players' experience? Most certainly. They need channels to provide meaningful feedback to developers about these issues. The CM can skillfully manage these communication channels to ensure a helpful response and a satisfied customer.
CMs that are busy marketting and recruiting often don't seem to do a good job at promoting the kind of community that makes MMOs immersive and enjoyable.
It's not just the players that lose when this happens. Customers who are routinely griefed, or consistently frustrated by bugs and issues tend to move on. Populations suffer and MMOs begin to lack an important ingredient; they cease to be massively multiplayer and become ghost towns.
P.S. All that aside, I've played 2 MMOs where my actions did physcially change the landscape for other players. In city of heroes I could take control of pillboxes that made the zone more hazardous for enemy players. I could also spawn archvillains in the zone, directly by my actions. The appearance of the zones also changed. In StarWars Galaxies I could contruct bases and turrets that would affect other players in PvP and PvE. Players who strayed too close to my automatic turrets could have their rides blasted out from under them. They could be left stranded without transportation, have expensive repairs, and/or be killed. I'd say that affected their game experience in a fairly significant way. Also, if one faction created too many bases in one area, the lag made gameplay a real pain in the arse for everyone.
This isn't always the case and I feel those who aren't looking to move on are some of the best in the industry, there are many of us out there who have no desire to move onto design or other areas we thrive on interacting with the community daily.
I personally have no desire to ever work anywhere but community sure it's hell as times and there are day's you want to just ban the entire forum
(note to self get web dev to implement that button) But those day's are usually far outweighed by the days where you feel you have genuinely made a difference to your player bases experience.
I think it is the other way around. The makers of mmo's wants the audience to buy the game and keep playing it. So they want to keep the audience happy. Listening to what their audience wants might be in their own best interest.
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Delanor
I think it is the other way around. The makers of mmo's wants the audience to buy the game and keep playing it. So they want to keep the audience happy. Listening to what their audience wants might be in their own best interest.
It's a bit of both.
From a company standpoint you want and need that interaction to keep players on board to get the best feedback you can to make the best game you can.
A lot of MMOers do have this chip on there shoulder and feel THEY have to be listened to, I myself am like this in whatever game interests me at that time.
You find this crowd to be at the worst during beta where they seem to feel you have to make a game exactly the way they want it and if you aren't then your ignorant to the playerbase, you didn't do your job properley and because you didn't make the Ranger they are going to play grossly overpowered you didn't communicate they're concerns to dev correctly.
What a lot forget is A: Your working to a design spec B:The game is about the overall community not that player as a individual.
TBH that is the most difficult part of the role picking the consistent requests and complaints from a entire playerbase that spans multiple websites, in game and other areas of discussion then presenting them in a manner that manipulates dev to the playerbases will.
Feature Y is great but X needs some work. Feature Y could be hopelessly broken but X is more of a priority so you have to present in a manner that gets you what the community wants then Y can be revisited.
You often have to play the community in a similar way when you perhaps feel they're concern isn't gaining the merit it should and a well under-moderated post can go a long way.
It's a at times very devious and manipulative role to play but that is where the good CM's shine.
LOL... I'm sorry i don't mean to laugh.
I think what companies need is the vision of a dying poor gamer. People don't want to and most can't pay for subscriptions.
Sure there's still lot's of people who will, but overall that's what's killing most MMO's.
Overall it's a good article for office use. Yes, players shouldn't really be dealing with the business end of the game, just the fun parts and the people that portray that.
Godspeed my fellow gamer
First of all – marketing doesn’t mean money corrupted liars (that’s the basic thing you got wrong and that’s why your entire article is nothing more than a misinformed rant). At least not nowadays and more companies are leaning towards a transparent and honest way of promoting their products.
Do you honestly think that a person who just reports to and from the community can make any sort of impact in a company? Do you think that a CM would have his job for a long time if he started moaning about the game he works for on the forum, and what’s stopping a marketer from telling his bosses that the player don’t like this or that?
Marketers are not some high hippies who only see and talk about the good sides of the product. Being a good marketer is first and most of all knowing your audience well and understanding where its needs and expectations meet with the company’s targets and capabilities.
You need to get out media dark ages and talk to some marketers – and I’m not talking about 50+ gray haired car salesmen. Trust me you'd be surprised how things changed in the new generation...
Ensuring your playerbase thinks you are being fair with them is crucial to any MMO. That used to be the priority of a community manger. This is just another example of corporate culture infiltrating every area of MMO’s. Marketing and profit is now the priority of every member of staff.
That is so true, I am studying Marketing in school and knowing your consumer base. If you know who you want to see the "ads" you have to make sure that 1. the people you are trying to reach have a clear understanding of the product your promoting, 2. you have to be able to answer any and all questions anyone has. It can be really tough to be a marketer if the person you are talking to has a negative attitude about said product, so sometimes you have to be able to say when.
You cant please everyone so expecting to do so isnt going to help your company grow; the only way for it to really grow is learning to listen to the community as a whole and fix what needs to be fixed.
Kristina Linger
AkashaGunn lvl 92 Cleric
Epith server
I really liked this article, especially as I am working on starting some kind of project my own. It made me really reconsider some of the tasks I was going to assign to the Community Manger as your arguments seems really valid to me.
Thanks a lot!
Regards,
Zythean
#18 has it. I'm a CM for a major company and this pretty much says it all. I really do want to help the community in anyway I can, but often my hands are tied.
Yet, in an MMO, you are sharing the same environment as everyone else. Even you cut off all communication with a particular player, that player can still affect you through actions depending on what limitations/freedoms have been placed on a game. If the game is completely uninstanced, you'll be sure as hell that if a player is griefing you, there will be no amount of squelching, ignoring, or sometimes even running away that can stop that person from affecting you.
Same with players in something like WoW's random LFG tool, all the squelching/muting in the world cannot stop a player from leaving your group or forcing a wipe if you're in the same environment as he is. It still affected your game experience. Even having to squelch or ignore someone or go out of your way to improve your own experience is a reflection of the community in one way or another.
With a multiplayer game, you simply can just leave the game. Most games are not designed to allow teammates to kill each other (for the most part) and limitations are placed to prevent players from doing so. It is much easier with a multiplayer game because you're not constantly sharing the same environment.
Again, lets keep things into perspective, this is not about lifestyle so I don't know where you're pulling this from. This is about significant differences between an MMORPG and multiplayer games and seeing that you never addressed this question, I'm assuming your admitting to some degree of truth in the posts you have been responding to. This goes way beyond communication, video games are not AOL chat rooms where all you need to do is cut off all communication. You're actually interacting in a virtual environment and last time I checked, actions spoke louder than words anyway.
It is fairly obvious you have not played MMO's much.
If the developers are not getting a gamers view of how the game plays, they will not fix problems that can be very important to the player base.
Take DAoC for example with their Trials of Atlantis expansion. If players put in enough time they basically became gods in a pvp game. How long will the general populace stick around in a pvp game when they have to fight against basically invincible players? Sure the DAoC staff made some token changes, but they were completely unaware of the problems the average gamer was having and the changes were not even close to what they needed to do. A mass exodus from the game occurred because of this.
I can site many examples of this that has occurred in other games. UO had it's Age of Shadows expansion, EQ it's ridiculous camping, the entire AC2 game. I could go on and on providing examples of developers out of touch with their players.
MMO's are not a box you buy, play it for a month and then move on to the next game. MMO's want to retain you for a subscription for as long as they can or in a f2p game to keep spending your money in the item shop. They need the feed back from someone to keep them aware of the issues with the game.
If the player base feels that it's concerns are not being addressed, they will just leave.
just wanted to say i agree with the ops post
I used to be a very strong contributor to the community forums for Ultima Online back when they actually had them. They had some of the greatest community managers (there were a few of them, although usually one main one that usually took charge most of the time). They were not cheerleaders for the game, but they were spokespeople for the game, and they did a great job. Then, after Trammel was introduced, the higher beings at EA decided that they didn't like the criticism they were receiving and ended the forums. It was probably the biggest mistake they ever made.
What they never realized was that a lot of the voices of the different shards were represented on the boards, and the second that the company decided it didn't want a place for those voices to discuss the game, many of us just left the game completely. I hadn't realized it until then, but I was holding onto the game, mainly because of my enjoyment of communicating with people in teh forums, and we all shared the similar desire to enjoy the game. Once they took that away, I quit the game. I ran into a lot of those senior posters years later in other games, and a lot of them said the same thing.
What companies don't realize is that even though there is a lot of criticism of their product on the forums, removing that forum is the deathknell for their game as well, especially when an active community has been built up there.
My blog:
http://www.littlesarbonn.com
Replies to some really stupid points...
Replies to some really stupid points...
I pay for cable/internet/phone monthly (and it all costs more then MMOs)and I don't have a community where I talk to the people who work there. I pay for Xbox Live regularly, but don't demand a community to talk to microsoft. When I buy a new car I know I'm going to be paying for it monthly for a few years but I don't demand a community with the manufacturers.
There are a lot of businesses where you pay on a regular basis, and pay a lot more then MMOs, but people don't demand a community or think they're owed all these different things by a company. So no you're arguement is the stupid point since it misses the actual point of the post.
It's a game you play when it's fun, you don't when it's not and all the companies actually care about is numbers. They don't care about posts or rants or whining, they care what their metrics show.
They have data to show what quests people play, what point players get to before they quit, how many people stayed subbed for how long and do what. They have all the information on what actual drives their numbers. They don't need a community to do that. I think WoW has showed this many times over. They make changes that no one asked for, and many in the vocal minority scream is killing the game. But then their numbers go up another million or two. Then they do it again and again. This isn't because of their community interactions, it's because of their metrics.
I realize I take an unpopular stance when, on a forum of the die-hard MMO fans who want to have a say in every aspect of every MMO ever, I say players shouldn't feel owed an MMO. But to make a quick, undefended, hollow reason as to why doesn't really do the conversation justice.
It is fairly obvious you have not played MMO's much.
If the developers are not getting a gamers view of how the game plays, they will not fix problems that can be very important to the player base.
Take DAoC for example with their Trials of Atlantis expansion. If players put in enough time they basically became gods in a pvp game. How long will the general populace stick around in a pvp game when they have to fight against basically invincible players? Sure the DAoC staff made some token changes, but they were completely unaware of the problems the average gamer was having and the changes were not even close to what they needed to do. A mass exodus from the game occurred because of this.
I can site many examples of this that has occurred in other games. UO had it's Age of Shadows expansion, EQ it's ridiculous camping, the entire AC2 game. I could go on and on providing examples of developers out of touch with their players.
MMO's are not a box you buy, play it for a month and then move on to the next game. MMO's want to retain you for a subscription for as long as they can or in a f2p game to keep spending your money in the item shop. They need the feed back from someone to keep them aware of the issues with the game.
If the player base feels that it's concerns are not being addressed, they will just leave.
I started playing MMOs with The Realm, and then I've played just about every major, and some minor, release since then. I have had at least once MMO account subbed each month for a good 12 years. So yes I think I have some experience with MMOs.
As I said in my reply to a different post. MMOs have deep metrics, they can measure and monitor many aspects of their game. And since such a small percentage of a player base even visits a companies forums they can't use what those players say as accurate information anyways. So yes a game can have a bad release, but their metrics are telling them that (and more accurately what issues are) faster then the small group of players that posts on the forums.
MMO's are as simple as a game you play, for the majority of the player base. The players that post on forums such as this, or official game forums are not the majority. They are a major minority. So that minority takes an MMO to be something far more then a game, but the majority of any MMOs player base is average people who just want to play a game and have fun. Do they want to keep those customers? Of course but they do so by simply keeping it fun, not through listening to every die hard fans complaint.
An interesting topic and an opinion I would tend to agree with.
I was playing Age of Conan through the tail-end of beta and for the first couple of months after launch. It was during this period that all respect I ever had, or would ever had for Failcom, completely dissolved. It was that there were so many problems with the game post-release. This was expected and accepted. It was the company's stubborn refusal to not only address those problems, but to even acknowledge they even existed. Game breaking bug after game breaking bug was being reported and nothing was ever mentioned about them. The complaints were rising to a deafening crescendo, and all the feedback we were getting from Failcom was how wonderfully awesome everything was going with the game, and how the future was indeed bright.
Not only was what we were getting out of the company in response to our concerns, lies and misdirection, but it was also ham-fisted and stupidly obtuse lies and misdirection. A buggy game at release is forgivable, and even expected these days. What's unforgivable is a complete lack of honesty and respect for the folks that are paying for you to stay in business.
Because of the way the this company handled that episode, they've lost me as a client for good. Perhaps if they'd had a few straight-shooters out there dealing with the community instead of the slimy hacks writing their press releases, I'd be willing to give them another shot. Instead, now I turn quickly away from anything I see sporting their logo.
Maybe you need to forward this article over to Gpotato`s CM, cause god knows shes part of the marketing team and does a great job of political spin! Ask anyone who just got the word tonight that the prices for Allods CS is final! ($20 for 6 extra slots of bagspace for starters!) If this trend keeps up F2P model will die out from greed!
Replies to some really stupid points...
I pay for cable/internet/phone monthly (and it all costs more then MMOs)and I don't have a community where I talk to the people who work there. I pay for Xbox Live regularly, but don't demand a community to talk to microsoft. When I buy a new car I know I'm going to be paying for it monthly for a few years but I don't demand a community with the manufacturers.
There are a lot of businesses where you pay on a regular basis, and pay a lot more then MMOs, but people don't demand a community or think they're owed all these different things by a company. So no you're arguement is the stupid point since it misses the actual point of the post.
It's a game you play when it's fun, you don't when it's not and all the companies actually care about is numbers. They don't care about posts or rants or whining, they care what their metrics show.
They have data to show what quests people play, what point players get to before they quit, how many people stayed subbed for how long and do what. They have all the information on what actual drives their numbers. They don't need a community to do that. I think WoW has showed this many times over. They make changes that no one asked for, and many in the vocal minority scream is killing the game. But then their numbers go up another million or two. Then they do it again and again. This isn't because of their community interactions, it's because of their metrics.
I realize I take an unpopular stance when, on a forum of the die-hard MMO fans who want to have a say in every aspect of every MMO ever, I say players shouldn't feel owed an MMO. But to make a quick, undefended, hollow reason as to why doesn't really do the conversation justice.
People don't want a community with their car dealership because there's nothing massively multiplayer about buying a car. MMOs are by their very nature community oriented. Refining them (due to bugs and issues) and continuing to add content to them is best done in collaboration wtih the playing community--if you want them to continuing playing that is.
Also, you highlight a problem I've mentioned elsewhere regarding MMO market research. I think you're right that they look exclusively at their metrics. What's wrong with that? They have no idea what the numbers mean without community input. Case in point, SOE said their metrics led them to delete professions that turned out to be very popular. After the game in question became an epic screw-up (in the words of its own lead developer btw) what was blamed? Bad data-mining. AKA completely misreading the metrics. How did they misread them so badly? They turned a deaf ear to their playing community. Smed described this as his cardinal sin btw. I agree with him on this point.
Yes lets talk about data mining. I will point at SWG for sure, they said we see what that data mining lead too.
Now I will point at LOTRO with their data mining. We got rad gear, and LI's. Both of these are the most hotly debated topic. In fact so hot the past 2 weeks the CM put up a thing saying tell the devs what you would like to change about both. They are getting an earfull.
However we see the CM locking, and pruning upshoot threads leaft and right, Espically the ones that say I bet they do nothing. In fact 3 months after MOM rolled out things had gotten so hot in the forums, the CM posted and said "Our players love Randiance gear and LI's thoese will not be changing" WE already had one revamp to LI's.
This is the problem with some CM's and some companies, they don't like hearing from the player base, because of their ego. The fact is most companies choose a path to go down, and they don't like hearing they messed it up.
If your going to have a cm it needs to be somebody who can remain open about negative thoughts from the comunity otherwise all they become is another fan who shouts the mal contents down. We see this over and over and over.
It's not only an unpopular stance, its practically unjustifiable and despite listed experience, it definitely isn't reflected. Whether a game is an MMORPG or a non-MMORPG (even single-player game), the company creates games FOR players. Not for themselves or they wouldn't bother publishing them, it's for other people. Even Non-MMORPG games come out with balance patches and bug fixes to make the games more enjoyable. It just so happens that an MMORPG has more longevity than a regular video game.
No one ever said we were owed an MMO, but for the sake of customer satisfaction, companies are bound to listening to their customers to keep the game fun for everyone. Hardcore or not, we are still a portion of the player population and I don't think that many of the forum posters are as hardcore as you think we are, we are just the minority that like to express an opinion.
If you firmly believe that developers shouldn't have to listen to their customer or worry about the satisfaction of their community, then why are YOU even posting on these forums in the first place? There would be no point for places like this if companies never had to cater to players' thoughts, opinions and beliefs. If our opinions never mattered, I believe there would be a lot more people less inclined to even bother expressing an opinion.