Final Fantasy XI was a PS game which was ported to the PC and has a clunky interface to show for it. To my knowledge, only two recent MMOs were created with consoles in mind from the start - Age of Conan and Champions Online. How are those console versions working out for you console players?
The simple truth is that console-centric games are shallow and clumsy and don't translate well to RPGs, and particularly MMORPGs. The recent crop of RPGs created for consoles (Oblivion, Fallout 3, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect) are the result of developers' desire to grab the financial incentives Microsoft has given for X-Box exclusivity and primary releases. The games themselves are clumsy when played on PCs, because that's not what they were initially designed for. Even Dragon Age is a sophisticated port of a console game. I like to point and click and be able to move my interface windows around. Console ports are like playing inside a closet.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II "People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
What do you really need for an MMORPG? A keyboard so you can type. Not everyone uses voice chat, and for many many reasons, that will never become the standard default. It's a nice addition, but will never replace typing.
if you attach a keyboard to a Console, what do you have?
A PC basically.
The end.
It's really quite moot because eventually everything is moving to the Cloud. You won't have PC's or Consoles. You will have a fast internet connection. You will plug into that connection whatever you like, a keyboard and mouse, or a game pad.
Let's see: WASD, for movement, jump, crouch = 6 buttons Left analog stick for movement, press the stick for crouch, use a face button for jump. Basic. 1- varying number for skills and abilities = 8 - 10 Let the player assign three or four skills to the face buttons and have a <shift> button, like taping the RB, to cycle through two or three layers of skill assigns. Menus and modality. Bad for good usability. F1- to varying number to target party members = 4 - 12 Left or right on the d-pad Too many pressed buttons when there something can be achieved with only one. You way is more like a menu - same as before: It is not good usability. Next target, previous target, target nearest, call target, and target called target = 5 Up or down on the d-pad. In fact, for both of these you could just have one button that would cycle through all visible targets. Like up cycles through party members while left cycles through enemies. This will leave right and down for other functions. The actions mentioned after previous and next target are meant to remove unnecessary cycling through targets. You're dismissing their intention altogether. Push to talk, chat = 2 party voice chat is a beautiful thing. Voice activation is horrible. Request or alert status, mana, health or otherwise = Usually used with a lock-key and a mouse Confused by this one. You can't just find this info on the screen?
This means that for example, in GW you can press control and click a, skill, your mana/health pool or the conditions and hexes on you and a report will appear in the team chat like "I have 58/550 health", "I have Backfire on me!", "I have Cripple on me" or "I'm using X skill on target Y". attack, block, dodge, cancel skill/spell, reload = 5 Right trigger attacks, left trigger blocks, only one spell can be cast at a time so starting a new one auto cancels the one in progress. Normally only see reload in FPS games so I don't know why you're bringing it up here. Reload is normally the X button. Forces to cycle through "active spells/skills". Menus, varying screens, map = 1 - varying number Back and start are usually used to call up menus. once in the menus you can switch between menus with the trigger buttons and select stuff with the left analog stick and the A button. Combination keys are tricky and, again, not very good for usability. Buttons that change HUD modes or character modes = 0 - varying number Probably either the back or start button. I'd assume that the start button would take you to the menus so the back button would logically work for this. So on and so forth... This is an example what an MMORPG might have for controls in PC. I'd like to see you try and allocate those actions to a controller and still keep it understandable and natural. I'd imagine you'd have to make heavy use of modality (button+button type of things) or more menus which all are bad, in general, for usability. Either that or simplify things: Auto-target, auto-attack, auto-reload... or drop a few of those actions altogether. By no means are console games dumbed-down, but they have severe limitations due to the controller. That and mouse is superior to controllers in FPS and RTS games which require more nimble and faster movement. Console-games have to make sacrifices. It is not true that console games are for idiots. It's just that some console games are really, really simple and console gamers like simpler games in general.
Notice that alot of what I listed off are basically control standards on consoles. Not only is it possible for these functions to be assigned in an intuitive way, but it's been done thousands of times before.
The speed issue is also moot since I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 controller and have the same kill / death ratio that I acheive with a mouse and keyboard. I do have to play a bit differently with the gamepad, but it doesn't put me at any kind of disadvantage.
Cycling through modes is a bad thing. They are not good for usability. A good rule of thumb is the less clicks you have to do to achieve your goal, the better. The optimal would be that everything has its own key, but alas that is hardly ever possible.
All of you suggestions are compromises. Sure you can allocate all of those actions to a controller but if it's any good is another thing altogether. Those controls are hardly intuitive. Frequent menus and cycling are both slow, and while combination keys might solve things without menus, they require additional memorizing from the user and are more awkward than single button solutions.
As for your FPS skills... Majority of people cannot be wrong. FPS games are far more popular on PC and there are hardly any RTS games for the console. Put PC gamers and console gamers on same FPS server and I bet those PC gamers, on average, come on top.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Cycling through modes is a bad thing. They are not good for usability. A good rule of thumb is the less clicks you have to do to achieve your goal, the better. The optimal would be that everything has its own key, but alas that is hardly ever possible.
All of you suggestions are compromises. Sure you can allocate all of those actions to a controller but if it's any good is another thing altogether. Those controls are hardly intuitive. Frequent menus and cycling are both slow, and while combination keys might solve things without menus, they require additional memorizing from the user and are more awkward than single button solutions.
As for your FPS skills... Majority of people cannot be wrong. FPS games are far more popular on PC and there are hardly any RTS games for the console. Put PC gamers and console gamers on same FPS server and I bet those PC gamers, on average, come on top.
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
That is very true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Cycling through modes is a bad thing. They are not good for usability. A good rule of thumb is the less clicks you have to do to achieve your goal, the better. The optimal would be that everything has its own key, but alas that is hardly ever possible.
All of you suggestions are compromises. Sure you can allocate all of those actions to a controller but if it's any good is another thing altogether. Those controls are hardly intuitive. Frequent menus and cycling are both slow, and while combination keys might solve things without menus, they require additional memorizing from the user and are more awkward than single button solutions.
As for your FPS skills... Majority of people cannot be wrong. FPS games are far more popular on PC and there are hardly any RTS games for the console. Put PC gamers and console gamers on same FPS server and I bet those PC gamers, on average, come on top.
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
Hello. If you scroll up, you'll see that I mentioned that I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 gamepad. I also have the same kill / death ratio as I get with a keyboard + mouse. By default, aim assist is turned off in the PC version of UT3.
Just because you suck at using a controller, does not mean that everyone does.
But this is all kind of tangential to my original post.
There are console MMOs out there. They're just on PC.
As for the "console gamers are retards" line of crap, it's just that. It's a way for PC elitist to feel special and unique when they really have no reason. The controller does not make a game deep or intelligent. And lets be totally honest here, if you were so completely about complex, tactical gameplay, you'd be playing something more like TacOps 4 or Dangerous Waters. Not some random, grindy, fantasy themed skinner box that rewards time over strategic skill.
What do you really need for an MMORPG? A keyboard so you can type. Not everyone uses voice chat, and for many many reasons, that will never become the standard default. It's a nice addition, but will never replace typing. if you attach a keyboard to a Console, what do you have? A PC basically. The end. It's really quite moot because eventually everything is moving to the Cloud. You won't have PC's or Consoles. You will have a fast internet connection. You will plug into that connection whatever you like, a keyboard and mouse, or a game pad.
Pretty weak point, though. Xbox Live includes a mic, so everyone has access to voice. Failure to use it is just like the noob party members you get in PC MMORPGs who don't communicate via chat.
The only consideration is gamepad vs. mouse, but a smart console MMORPG would avoid placing any significant value on camera manipulation. And even that argument is weak, considering the legions of players who somehow find gamepads acceptable for FPSes.
Regarding your other post, clearly my refusal to play console FPSes is catching up to me. Because I've never seen aim-assist in a console FPS which was enough to offset the clear disadvantage of the thumbstick -- being able to whip your view to whatever angle you want on demand trumps the slight aim-assist I saw most console FPSes use. Maybe things have changed in recent years? (Last console FPS I dabbled in was Resistance 2, and I've always been pretty avoidant of them...even though I worked on Perfect Dark (N64) and Halo 1 briefly.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
While I do like using a mouse to look over the right stick on my controller I prefer my left stick over wsad movement and my triggers, face buttons, clicking my sticks, d-pad and start/back buttons over a keyboards layout.
It's much easier to run with my stick and use my triggers and face buttons over fumbling around with wasd along with the awkwardly placed Shift,ctl,alt and c key.
Kinda tosses that "I can aim faster" out the window with how natural a controller is over a keyboard in every other function.
Easily Mouse>Controller>keyboard.
Problem is you can't just use your mouse to play fps on pc. Iwould rather my console.
true: consoles support players better, because they are all the same thing, but that is my problem. I want something that is better. The x-box is 5 years old now. It's falling behind some of the PC gaming market. I built my computer and it cost 300 bucks and then another 300 in upgrades, it's an old machine, but it's still better than any console you can throw at me.
PS: lets not turn this into a flame-war
I know what you mean and it's a valid point, but even still, when it comes to MMO's, you won't be able to make use of that hardware if the developers want the game to be played by the majority of PC's.
When you make an MMO (or any game) available on both consoles and PC's, you won't have to care about what kind of machines most people have, and can make the game with the console hardware in mind. And when ported to PC, if you have a good machine you can enhance the experience even further.
I don't think the consoles hinder PC players, but only complement them. Most players will be able to play the game with good graphics even without spending 600 bucks, and those with the money will be able to play even a better looking game on their PC's.
For example, while FFXIV will be on PS3 as well as PC, the console and PC versions will have different textures so the PS3 does not hinder the PC version, and all kind of players will be able to play the game, regardless of what hardware they own. If the game was available only on PC's, they would have to tune down the graphics (moreso than on consoles) so that the majority of PC's would be able to run the game without it looking ugly as sin.
First of all: Thank you for not being a dick, we need more of you on this sight.
On with it. I love to. it is (arguably) the point of consoles to make everything equal and Not have to make those options for users who aren't as dedicated. Because this is MMORPG.com and this thread is stressing MMO playablility, I have to agree with most of your points, I still will not play or support console MMOs though. There is something about getting players together and talking to them right there and being able to formulate strategies and stuff that I can't see being on a Console. Someone talked about the text having to be 15 in from your face reguardless of screen size. It's true. There is so much more going on then in a regular game where you're just focusing on alligning that dot with someone's head.
Cycling through modes is a bad thing. They are not good for usability. A good rule of thumb is the less clicks you have to do to achieve your goal, the better. The optimal would be that everything has its own key, but alas that is hardly ever possible.
All of you suggestions are compromises. Sure you can allocate all of those actions to a controller but if it's any good is another thing altogether. Those controls are hardly intuitive. Frequent menus and cycling are both slow, and while combination keys might solve things without menus, they require additional memorizing from the user and are more awkward than single button solutions.
As for your FPS skills... Majority of people cannot be wrong. FPS games are far more popular on PC and there are hardly any RTS games for the console. Put PC gamers and console gamers on same FPS server and I bet those PC gamers, on average, come on top.
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
Hello. If you scroll up, you'll see that I mentioned that I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 gamepad. I also have the same kill / death ratio as I get with a keyboard + mouse. By default, aim assist is turned off in the PC version of UT3.
Just because you suck at using a controller, does not mean that everyone does.
Just because you suck at PC games, doesn't mean everyone does. It goes both ways.
But this is all kind of tangential to my original post.
There are console MMOs out there. They're just on PC.
As for the "console gamers are retards" line of crap, it's just that. It's a way for PC elitist to feel special and unique when they really have no reason. The controller does not make a game deep or intelligent. And lets be totally honest here, if you were so completely about complex, tactical gameplay, you'd be playing something more like TacOps 4 or Dangerous Waters. Not some random, grindy, fantasy themed skinner box that rewards time over strategic skill.
What do you really need for an MMORPG? A keyboard so you can type. Not everyone uses voice chat, and for many many reasons, that will never become the standard default. It's a nice addition, but will never replace typing. if you attach a keyboard to a Console, what do you have? A PC basically. The end. Well, that's not true really. A console is a locked box with software you cannot really alter. A Personal Computer is open an platform with software you can, change, and remove as you like. It's really quite moot because eventually everything is moving to the Cloud. You won't have PC's or Consoles. You will have a fast internet connection. You will plug into that connection whatever you like, a keyboard and mouse, or a game pad. Yes, but cloud computing won't be here for a while still, regardless of what Apple and others want to think.
Cycling through modes is a bad thing. They are not good for usability. A good rule of thumb is the less clicks you have to do to achieve your goal, the better. The optimal would be that everything has its own key, but alas that is hardly ever possible.
All of you suggestions are compromises. Sure you can allocate all of those actions to a controller but if it's any good is another thing altogether. Those controls are hardly intuitive. Frequent menus and cycling are both slow, and while combination keys might solve things without menus, they require additional memorizing from the user and are more awkward than single button solutions.
As for your FPS skills... Majority of people cannot be wrong. FPS games are far more popular on PC and there are hardly any RTS games for the console. Put PC gamers and console gamers on same FPS server and I bet those PC gamers, on average, come on top.
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
Hello. If you scroll up, you'll see that I mentioned that I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 gamepad. I also have the same kill / death ratio as I get with a keyboard + mouse. By default, aim assist is turned off in the PC version of UT3.
Just because you suck at using a controller, does not mean that everyone does.
Just because you suck at PC games, doesn't mean everyone does. It goes both ways.
But this is all kind of tangential to my original post.
There are console MMOs out there. They're just on PC.
No one cares if you plug a game pad with no aim assist into your PC. Why would they?
My comment is about console players WITH aim assist on the same server as PC games with NO aim assist.
If you want to distribute the game on the consoles with aim assist disabled, that would be fine.
Consoles are the future of mmos and it is already starting to take shape. Dust514, Undead Labs zombie mmo, DCUO, Turbine unannounced mmo, FFXIV, Blade and Soul and The Agency. MMOs on a console is really an untapped market for the genre. So far we only had FFXI and Phantasy Star Online and I have to say overall they been pretty successful despite "the keyboard" issues to communicate with. Over 12 million on the Xbox 360 and over 10 million on a Playstation 3. Do you realize how much money a company can make from a console mmo ? There will always be mmos on the pc but the better platform is clearly the console.
1. Consoles are more stable to play on. Sure a pc is more powerful and has better graphics but it is so much harder to design a mmo on a pc. PCs are designed to do multiple things while the console is a dedicated piece of hardware for gaming.
2. The console controller isn't as difficult to use as some make it out to be. I own both a pc and a console and when I got used to playing on a console the controller was a none issue for me.
3. Consoles are more comfortable to play on. I kick my feet up, relax on the couch or my nice comfy recliner and enjoy a game while on the pc we can be stuck in that pc chair for hours.
They already exist.... on the PC... Yeah, EQOA and FFXI are traditional MMOs that have been on consoles and failed.
Uhh...
Anyway, the simple truth is that the current gen consoles will be more powerful than most PC's for quite some time. If you invest on a console MMO, you can make the graphics and the engine much better. See; FFXIV vs. SW:TOR when it comes to visual looks. The players don't have to invest on high end PC to play the game with good graphics, simply having a PS3 or Xbox 360 is enough.
LOL! More powerful than a today medium range lowe high end gaming rigs?I think not!. A high end Core i7 Pc with ATI 5900 Dx11 card using second generation solid state drives leaves xbox360, PS3 and Wii pretty far behind in raw computer power, even Core 2 duos give xbox360 and Wii's multi core CPU's a run for their money! GTA for example, graphics are pumped way up for Pc version as it can handle it.
Later this year Intel releasing their six core CPU's for home desktop on the 32nm CPU dye, these CPU's are much much faster than the core i7 CPU's again, they are so far ahead of anything consoles have in them today. 2012,13,14 the Pc will be deep in Dx11 titles, go check out what Dx11 can do and the difference in wire mesh from dx9 and 10. The current generation of consoles will be around until at least 2015, 2020 for PS3. Consoles wont be seeing any of the tricks exclusive Pc dx11 titles will be doing for the next decade.
LOL! More powerful than a today medium range lowe high end gaming rigs?I think not!. A high end Core i7 Pc with ATI 5900 Dx11 card using second generation solid state drives leaves xbox360, PS3 and Wii pretty far behind in raw computer power, even Core 2 duos give xbox360 and Wii's multi core CPU's a run for their money! GTA for example, graphics are pumped way up for Pc version as it can handle it. Later this year Intel releasing their six core CPU's for home desktop on the 32nm CPU dye, these CPU's are much much faster than the core i7 CPU's again, they are so far ahead of anything consoles have in them today. 2012,13,14 the Pc will be deep in Dx11 titles, go check out what Dx11 can do and the difference in wire mesh from dx9 and 10. The current generation of consoles will be around until at least 2015, 2020 for PS3. Consoles wont be seeing any of the tricks exclusive Pc dx11 titles will be doing for the next decade.
Your average person doesnt have even a middle of the road "gaming rig". Most folks run an off the shelf PC from Wallyworld or Best Buy. Gaming devs stopped developing for gamers when WOW hit the big time. Its mom, pop and junior they are after not the so called "elite" gamers with the souped up macines. I would wager that more people have a console in their home than have a "gaming PC".
LOL! More powerful than a today medium range lowe high end gaming rigs?I think not!. A high end Core i7 Pc with ATI 5900 Dx11 card using second generation solid state drives leaves xbox360, PS3 and Wii pretty far behind in raw computer power, even Core 2 duos give xbox360 and Wii's multi core CPU's a run for their money! GTA for example, graphics are pumped way up for Pc version as it can handle it. Later this year Intel releasing their six core CPU's for home desktop on the 32nm CPU dye, these CPU's are much much faster than the core i7 CPU's again, they are so far ahead of anything consoles have in them today. 2012,13,14 the Pc will be deep in Dx11 titles, go check out what Dx11 can do and the difference in wire mesh from dx9 and 10. The current generation of consoles will be around until at least 2015, 2020 for PS3. Consoles wont be seeing any of the tricks exclusive Pc dx11 titles will be doing for the next decade.
LOL! You just missed my point!
It doesn't matter what a 1000 bucks PC can do, what matters is what PC's most customers have- and those PC's are still far below the consoles in terms of hardware. That's what matters, not what the current PC's are able to do.
If most PC owners had a core i7 CPU it would be a different case- but to some people, money matters (shocking?!) and they will not be able to buy that hardware or don't feel that they need to. There's a reason why SW:TOR and WoW are not graphical pioneers. Even the people without a good gaming PC will have to be able to play those games, with as good graphics as possible.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Cycling through modes is a bad thing. They are not good for usability. A good rule of thumb is the less clicks you have to do to achieve your goal, the better. The optimal would be that everything has its own key, but alas that is hardly ever possible.
All of you suggestions are compromises. Sure you can allocate all of those actions to a controller but if it's any good is another thing altogether. Those controls are hardly intuitive. Frequent menus and cycling are both slow, and while combination keys might solve things without menus, they require additional memorizing from the user and are more awkward than single button solutions.
As for your FPS skills... Majority of people cannot be wrong. FPS games are far more popular on PC and there are hardly any RTS games for the console. Put PC gamers and console gamers on same FPS server and I bet those PC gamers, on average, come on top.
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
Hello. If you scroll up, you'll see that I mentioned that I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 gamepad. I also have the same kill / death ratio as I get with a keyboard + mouse. By default, aim assist is turned off in the PC version of UT3.
Just because you suck at using a controller, does not mean that everyone does.
Just because you suck at PC games, doesn't mean everyone does. It goes both ways.
But this is all kind of tangential to my original post.
There are console MMOs out there. They're just on PC.
No one cares if you plug a game pad with no aim assist into your PC. Why would they?
My comment is about console players WITH aim assist on the same server as PC games with NO aim assist.
If you want to distribute the game on the consoles with aim assist disabled, that would be fine.
But your players are not gonna like it.
If everyone is autoaiming, then it isn't an issue since everyone is on a level playing field. What are you complaining about?
BTW, BF: Bad Company 2, Quake 4, and COD4 all have the option to turn autoaim off. Yes, there are games where you are stuck with autoaim whether you like it or not, I'm looking at you Halo 3 and XBLA version of Serious Sam HD, but the majority of FPS games have autoaim as an OPTION. If you ever took the time to adjust the stick sensitivity in any of these games, under the 'Options' menu in most games, you'd have seen this option and already know this.
Funny, console gamers are retards because they don't want to deal with upgrading their own computer and navigating the world's most unintuitive user interfaces, but PC players can't turn of autoaim in the XBox version of COD.
3. Consoles are more comfortable to play on. I kick my feet up, relax on the couch or my nice comfy recliner and enjoy a game while on the pc we can be stuck in that pc chair for hours.
Imagine WoW is your favorite mmo (I said imagine!). Now imagine you're one of those people who read all of the quest dialogs, the chatboxes, and the combat dialog. You're going to do all of that effectively while reclining back, 10 feet away from the tv?
Consoles are the future of mmos and it is already starting to take shape. Dust514, Undead Labs zombie mmo, DCUO,Turbine unannounced mmo, FFXIV FFXIV not releasing for x-box because it's too dumbed down. , Blade and Soul and The Agency. MMOs on a console is really an untapped market for the genre. So far we only had FFXI and Phantasy Star Online and I have to say overall they been pretty successful despite "the keyboard" issues to communicate with. That is a big issue, also, there is the little chat box you have to be 15 in. from. Over 12 million on the Xbox 360 and over 10 million on a Playstation 3. Do you realize how much money a company can make from a console mmo ? There will always be mmos on the pc but the better platform is clearly the console. 1. Consoles are more stable to play on. Sure a pc is more powerful and has better graphics but it is so much harder to design a mmo on a pc. PCs are designed to do multiple things while the console is a dedicated piece of hardware for gaming. I'm not so sure about Them being more stable. More power and better graphics is a part of stability. If you have to dumb down the graphics to make the console version, it's not stable in my opinion. 2. The console controller isn't as difficult to use as some make it out to be. I own both a pc and a console and when I got used to playing on a console the controller was a none issue for me. Are you playing MMOs on the console? it's the cycling through all those spells. Think about WoW, I have almost every shortcut used up. Inventory, all those menus you have to press pause for. I think I use just about every key in many MMO games. No quite, but everything on the left side. and a 5-6 button mouse. 3. Consoles are more comfortable to play on. I kick my feet up, relax on the couch or my nice comfy recliner and enjoy a game while on the pc we can be stuck in that pc chair for hours. Again, can you read those tinnnny chat boxes from your recliner? Mmos are made to be played 15 in from the screen. I don't think devs are going to change that too much.
I think we all agree that the main console MMO problem is the controller. I personally have a total of 70 key assignments on my hot bar for Darkfall not to mention other functionality such as map, waypoints etc etc.
Now, with that one might say 'we can just add a keyboard to the console". True you could do that. But the question becomes at what point does the console community just admit that a console is bascially a computer without a keyboard? Why not just use a computer to begin with?
If you take a console and add a keyboard and a mouse you basically have an un-upgradable PC without a functional OS the end user can use.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD I think we all agree that the main console MMO problem is the controller. I personally have a total of 70 key assignments on my hot bar for Darkfall not to mention other functionality such as map, waypoints etc etc. Now, with that one might say 'we can just add a keyboard to the console". True you could do that. But the question becomes at what point does the console community just admit that a console is bascially a computer without a keyboard?
Cue hundreds of console fans saying, "That's just what we've been saying FROM THE START!"
Why not just use a computer to begin with?
Because a console has a standard configuration with a limited number of options, whereas you have to try to accomodate at least a good portion of the infinite number of PC configurations when you create a game for a PC.
If you take a console and add a keyboard and a mouse you basically have an un-upgradable PC without a functional OS the end user can use.
But if you turn it around and look at it from the other end, you realize that the fact that it is un-upgradable and "without a functional (read: customizable in every facet) OS" means that you're looking at a stable platform that the developer can code for without driving himself insane worrying what the platform's owner may have done to make himself incompatible.
Being able to upgrade and to customize your OS are very good things. I wouldn't put up with a console's rigidity if I wanted to do more than just play games with it, or even if I was just heavily into mods. But there's two sides to every coin.
I think we all agree that the main console MMO problem is the controller. I personally have a total of 70 key assignments on my hot bar for Darkfall not to mention other functionality such as map, waypoints etc etc. Now, with that one might say 'we can just add a keyboard to the console". True you could do that. But the question becomes at what point does the console community just admit that a console is bascially a computer without a keyboard? Why not just use a computer to begin with? If you take a console and add a keyboard and a mouse you basically have an un-upgradable PC without a functional OS the end user can use.
I'm going to go a little meta on you here.
Somehow, I'm thinking that this kind of game shouldn't be that complicated. Sure it fits with Eve Online or a flight simulator where you're piloting a complicated piece of war machine, but we're talking about guys in heavy armor swinging sharp pointy things at each other here. Or guys in light armor shooting sharp pointy, and sometimes fiery, things at each other. Clearly, your interface is infested with cruft. In fact, it's totally cruft-fucking-tastic.
I realize that we're dealing with a fantasy setting, but did the fellowship use waypoints, alert monitors and autmaps that are the equivalent of modern day GPS systems? I can understand a wizard having a ton of spells, but how many is he gonna have memorized completely at any given time? Seriously, try and go memorize Shakespear's sonnets. They're really short, but there are several hundred of them. Now imagine that each sonnet is a spell that you have to recite word for word every time you want to use it. How many do you think you'll be able to keep in your head? How many wiil you be able to recite, word for word while a guy in full plate armor with a claymore is bearing down on you? Even modern martial arts can be broken down to a handful of techniques that are strung together on the fly.
Here's a something I want youto do for me: Record what keys you use, and how often you use them in a two hour period. Just point a webcam at the keyboard then go back over the recoding and look at what you used and how often. I'm willing to bet that you don't use anywhere near all 70 of those buttons.
Comments
Oh, I caught that... but with English being my 2nd language, I'm not going to comment on those kind of things (usually).. I'm not perfect either!
Final Fantasy XI was a PS game which was ported to the PC and has a clunky interface to show for it. To my knowledge, only two recent MMOs were created with consoles in mind from the start - Age of Conan and Champions Online. How are those console versions working out for you console players?
The simple truth is that console-centric games are shallow and clumsy and don't translate well to RPGs, and particularly MMORPGs. The recent crop of RPGs created for consoles (Oblivion, Fallout 3, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect) are the result of developers' desire to grab the financial incentives Microsoft has given for X-Box exclusivity and primary releases. The games themselves are clumsy when played on PCs, because that's not what they were initially designed for. Even Dragon Age is a sophisticated port of a console game. I like to point and click and be able to move my interface windows around. Console ports are like playing inside a closet.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
What do you really need for an MMORPG? A keyboard so you can type. Not everyone uses voice chat, and for many many reasons, that will never become the standard default. It's a nice addition, but will never replace typing.
if you attach a keyboard to a Console, what do you have?
A PC basically.
The end.
It's really quite moot because eventually everything is moving to the Cloud. You won't have PC's or Consoles. You will have a fast internet connection. You will plug into that connection whatever you like, a keyboard and mouse, or a game pad.
Notice that alot of what I listed off are basically control standards on consoles. Not only is it possible for these functions to be assigned in an intuitive way, but it's been done thousands of times before.
The speed issue is also moot since I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 controller and have the same kill / death ratio that I acheive with a mouse and keyboard. I do have to play a bit differently with the gamepad, but it doesn't put me at any kind of disadvantage.
Cycling through modes is a bad thing. They are not good for usability. A good rule of thumb is the less clicks you have to do to achieve your goal, the better. The optimal would be that everything has its own key, but alas that is hardly ever possible.
All of you suggestions are compromises. Sure you can allocate all of those actions to a controller but if it's any good is another thing altogether. Those controls are hardly intuitive. Frequent menus and cycling are both slow, and while combination keys might solve things without menus, they require additional memorizing from the user and are more awkward than single button solutions.
As for your FPS skills... Majority of people cannot be wrong. FPS games are far more popular on PC and there are hardly any RTS games for the console. Put PC gamers and console gamers on same FPS server and I bet those PC gamers, on average, come on top.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
That is very true.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
Hello. If you scroll up, you'll see that I mentioned that I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 gamepad. I also have the same kill / death ratio as I get with a keyboard + mouse. By default, aim assist is turned off in the PC version of UT3.
Just because you suck at using a controller, does not mean that everyone does.
But this is all kind of tangential to my original post.
There are console MMOs out there. They're just on PC.
As for the "console gamers are retards" line of crap, it's just that. It's a way for PC elitist to feel special and unique when they really have no reason. The controller does not make a game deep or intelligent. And lets be totally honest here, if you were so completely about complex, tactical gameplay, you'd be playing something more like TacOps 4 or Dangerous Waters. Not some random, grindy, fantasy themed skinner box that rewards time over strategic skill.
Pretty weak point, though. Xbox Live includes a mic, so everyone has access to voice. Failure to use it is just like the noob party members you get in PC MMORPGs who don't communicate via chat.
The only consideration is gamepad vs. mouse, but a smart console MMORPG would avoid placing any significant value on camera manipulation. And even that argument is weak, considering the legions of players who somehow find gamepads acceptable for FPSes.
Regarding your other post, clearly my refusal to play console FPSes is catching up to me. Because I've never seen aim-assist in a console FPS which was enough to offset the clear disadvantage of the thumbstick -- being able to whip your view to whatever angle you want on demand trumps the slight aim-assist I saw most console FPSes use. Maybe things have changed in recent years? (Last console FPS I dabbled in was Resistance 2, and I've always been pretty avoidant of them...even though I worked on Perfect Dark (N64) and Halo 1 briefly.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I prefer my Fps on Consoles.
While I do like using a mouse to look over the right stick on my controller I prefer my left stick over wsad movement and my triggers, face buttons, clicking my sticks, d-pad and start/back buttons over a keyboards layout.
It's much easier to run with my stick and use my triggers and face buttons over fumbling around with wasd along with the awkwardly placed Shift,ctl,alt and c key.
Kinda tosses that "I can aim faster" out the window with how natural a controller is over a keyboard in every other function.
Easily Mouse>Controller>keyboard.
Problem is you can't just use your mouse to play fps on pc. Iwould rather my console.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I know what you mean and it's a valid point, but even still, when it comes to MMO's, you won't be able to make use of that hardware if the developers want the game to be played by the majority of PC's.
When you make an MMO (or any game) available on both consoles and PC's, you won't have to care about what kind of machines most people have, and can make the game with the console hardware in mind. And when ported to PC, if you have a good machine you can enhance the experience even further.
I don't think the consoles hinder PC players, but only complement them. Most players will be able to play the game with good graphics even without spending 600 bucks, and those with the money will be able to play even a better looking game on their PC's.
For example, while FFXIV will be on PS3 as well as PC, the console and PC versions will have different textures so the PS3 does not hinder the PC version, and all kind of players will be able to play the game, regardless of what hardware they own. If the game was available only on PC's, they would have to tune down the graphics (moreso than on consoles) so that the majority of PC's would be able to run the game without it looking ugly as sin.
First of all: Thank you for not being a dick, we need more of you on this sight.
On with it. I love to. it is (arguably) the point of consoles to make everything equal and Not have to make those options for users who aren't as dedicated. Because this is MMORPG.com and this thread is stressing MMO playablility, I have to agree with most of your points, I still will not play or support console MMOs though. There is something about getting players together and talking to them right there and being able to formulate strategies and stuff that I can't see being on a Console. Someone talked about the text having to be 15 in from your face reguardless of screen size. It's true. There is so much more going on then in a regular game where you're just focusing on alligning that dot with someone's head.
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
Hello. If you scroll up, you'll see that I mentioned that I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 gamepad. I also have the same kill / death ratio as I get with a keyboard + mouse. By default, aim assist is turned off in the PC version of UT3.
Just because you suck at using a controller, does not mean that everyone does.
Just because you suck at PC games, doesn't mean everyone does. It goes both ways.
But this is all kind of tangential to my original post.
There are console MMOs out there. They're just on PC.
As for the "console gamers are retards" line of crap, it's just that. It's a way for PC elitist to feel special and unique when they really have no reason. The controller does not make a game deep or intelligent. And lets be totally honest here, if you were so completely about complex, tactical gameplay, you'd be playing something more like TacOps 4 or Dangerous Waters. Not some random, grindy, fantasy themed skinner box that rewards time over strategic skill.
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
Hello. If you scroll up, you'll see that I mentioned that I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 gamepad. I also have the same kill / death ratio as I get with a keyboard + mouse. By default, aim assist is turned off in the PC version of UT3.
Just because you suck at using a controller, does not mean that everyone does.
Just because you suck at PC games, doesn't mean everyone does. It goes both ways.
But this is all kind of tangential to my original post.
There are console MMOs out there. They're just on PC.
No one cares if you plug a game pad with no aim assist into your PC. Why would they?
My comment is about console players WITH aim assist on the same server as PC games with NO aim assist.
If you want to distribute the game on the consoles with aim assist disabled, that would be fine.
But your players are not gonna like it.
Dragon Age has a console version. I'm not sure about Fallout 3 but I wouldn't be surprised.
I know they aren't MMOs, but they are close.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Yes Fallout 3 is avaiable on PS3 and I believe Xbox as well.
Consoles are the future of mmos and it is already starting to take shape. Dust514, Undead Labs zombie mmo, DCUO, Turbine unannounced mmo, FFXIV, Blade and Soul and The Agency. MMOs on a console is really an untapped market for the genre. So far we only had FFXI and Phantasy Star Online and I have to say overall they been pretty successful despite "the keyboard" issues to communicate with. Over 12 million on the Xbox 360 and over 10 million on a Playstation 3. Do you realize how much money a company can make from a console mmo ? There will always be mmos on the pc but the better platform is clearly the console.
1. Consoles are more stable to play on. Sure a pc is more powerful and has better graphics but it is so much harder to design a mmo on a pc. PCs are designed to do multiple things while the console is a dedicated piece of hardware for gaming.
2. The console controller isn't as difficult to use as some make it out to be. I own both a pc and a console and when I got used to playing on a console the controller was a none issue for me.
3. Consoles are more comfortable to play on. I kick my feet up, relax on the couch or my nice comfy recliner and enjoy a game while on the pc we can be stuck in that pc chair for hours.
Uhh...
Anyway, the simple truth is that the current gen consoles will be more powerful than most PC's for quite some time. If you invest on a console MMO, you can make the graphics and the engine much better. See; FFXIV vs. SW:TOR when it comes to visual looks. The players don't have to invest on high end PC to play the game with good graphics, simply having a PS3 or Xbox 360 is enough.
LOL! More powerful than a today medium range lowe high end gaming rigs?I think not!. A high end Core i7 Pc with ATI 5900 Dx11 card using second generation solid state drives leaves xbox360, PS3 and Wii pretty far behind in raw computer power, even Core 2 duos give xbox360 and Wii's multi core CPU's a run for their money! GTA for example, graphics are pumped way up for Pc version as it can handle it.
Later this year Intel releasing their six core CPU's for home desktop on the 32nm CPU dye, these CPU's are much much faster than the core i7 CPU's again, they are so far ahead of anything consoles have in them today. 2012,13,14 the Pc will be deep in Dx11 titles, go check out what Dx11 can do and the difference in wire mesh from dx9 and 10. The current generation of consoles will be around until at least 2015, 2020 for PS3. Consoles wont be seeing any of the tricks exclusive Pc dx11 titles will be doing for the next decade.
Your average person doesnt have even a middle of the road "gaming rig". Most folks run an off the shelf PC from Wallyworld or Best Buy. Gaming devs stopped developing for gamers when WOW hit the big time. Its mom, pop and junior they are after not the so called "elite" gamers with the souped up macines. I would wager that more people have a console in their home than have a "gaming PC".
LOL! You just missed my point!
It doesn't matter what a 1000 bucks PC can do, what matters is what PC's most customers have- and those PC's are still far below the consoles in terms of hardware. That's what matters, not what the current PC's are able to do.
If most PC owners had a core i7 CPU it would be a different case- but to some people, money matters (shocking?!) and they will not be able to buy that hardware or don't feel that they need to. There's a reason why SW:TOR and WoW are not graphical pioneers. Even the people without a good gaming PC will have to be able to play those games, with as good graphics as possible.
There is no comparison between a keyboard and mouse versus a game pad for accuracy. The mouse wins, hands down, no developers even argue against that .
When you use a mouse, it's about putting the pointer on a pixel. That's it.
Gamepads can't do that. So instead, what you do is design aimbots. you make is so the players has to get NEAR a pixel with the aimbot, so you can make the game just hard enough to be fun, but not to easy.
This is why players with a mouse dont' like playing on the same server as someone with a game pad.
Mouse has no aimbot, game pad always has an aimbot.
Disable the aimbot for the game pad, the players cannot compete with the mouse player.
But how much help do you give the game pad player so that it's just enough, without helping to much against the mouse player?
Can it ever be perfectly even, aimbot versus no aimbot?
Hello. If you scroll up, you'll see that I mentioned that I play the PC version of UT3 with an XBox 360 gamepad. I also have the same kill / death ratio as I get with a keyboard + mouse. By default, aim assist is turned off in the PC version of UT3.
Just because you suck at using a controller, does not mean that everyone does.
Just because you suck at PC games, doesn't mean everyone does. It goes both ways.
But this is all kind of tangential to my original post.
There are console MMOs out there. They're just on PC.
No one cares if you plug a game pad with no aim assist into your PC. Why would they?
My comment is about console players WITH aim assist on the same server as PC games with NO aim assist.
If you want to distribute the game on the consoles with aim assist disabled, that would be fine.
But your players are not gonna like it.
If everyone is autoaiming, then it isn't an issue since everyone is on a level playing field. What are you complaining about?
BTW, BF: Bad Company 2, Quake 4, and COD4 all have the option to turn autoaim off. Yes, there are games where you are stuck with autoaim whether you like it or not, I'm looking at you Halo 3 and XBLA version of Serious Sam HD, but the majority of FPS games have autoaim as an OPTION. If you ever took the time to adjust the stick sensitivity in any of these games, under the 'Options' menu in most games, you'd have seen this option and already know this.
Funny, console gamers are retards because they don't want to deal with upgrading their own computer and navigating the world's most unintuitive user interfaces, but PC players can't turn of autoaim in the XBox version of COD.
Imagine WoW is your favorite mmo (I said imagine!). Now imagine you're one of those people who read all of the quest dialogs, the chatboxes, and the combat dialog. You're going to do all of that effectively while reclining back, 10 feet away from the tv?
I think we all agree that the main console MMO problem is the controller. I personally have a total of 70 key assignments on my hot bar for Darkfall not to mention other functionality such as map, waypoints etc etc.
Now, with that one might say 'we can just add a keyboard to the console". True you could do that. But the question becomes at what point does the console community just admit that a console is bascially a computer without a keyboard? Why not just use a computer to begin with?
If you take a console and add a keyboard and a mouse you basically have an un-upgradable PC without a functional OS the end user can use.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Cue hundreds of console fans saying, "That's just what we've been saying FROM THE START!"
Because a console has a standard configuration with a limited number of options, whereas you have to try to accomodate at least a good portion of the infinite number of PC configurations when you create a game for a PC.
But if you turn it around and look at it from the other end, you realize that the fact that it is un-upgradable and "without a functional (read: customizable in every facet) OS" means that you're looking at a stable platform that the developer can code for without driving himself insane worrying what the platform's owner may have done to make himself incompatible.
Being able to upgrade and to customize your OS are very good things. I wouldn't put up with a console's rigidity if I wanted to do more than just play games with it, or even if I was just heavily into mods. But there's two sides to every coin.
I'm going to go a little meta on you here.
Somehow, I'm thinking that this kind of game shouldn't be that complicated. Sure it fits with Eve Online or a flight simulator where you're piloting a complicated piece of war machine, but we're talking about guys in heavy armor swinging sharp pointy things at each other here. Or guys in light armor shooting sharp pointy, and sometimes fiery, things at each other. Clearly, your interface is infested with cruft. In fact, it's totally cruft-fucking-tastic.
I realize that we're dealing with a fantasy setting, but did the fellowship use waypoints, alert monitors and autmaps that are the equivalent of modern day GPS systems? I can understand a wizard having a ton of spells, but how many is he gonna have memorized completely at any given time? Seriously, try and go memorize Shakespear's sonnets. They're really short, but there are several hundred of them. Now imagine that each sonnet is a spell that you have to recite word for word every time you want to use it. How many do you think you'll be able to keep in your head? How many wiil you be able to recite, word for word while a guy in full plate armor with a claymore is bearing down on you? Even modern martial arts can be broken down to a handful of techniques that are strung together on the fly.
Here's a something I want youto do for me: Record what keys you use, and how often you use them in a two hour period. Just point a webcam at the keyboard then go back over the recoding and look at what you used and how often. I'm willing to bet that you don't use anywhere near all 70 of those buttons.