And I'll say again, Darkfall is not an FPS. It has an FPS aiming system....that is IT. I'm willing to bet that you never played past your first month (if you ever have even actually played the game) if you think that there is nothing to Darkfall combat but "FPS skill". But hey, whatever, man. Hating on DF is the cool, trendy thing to do these days.
Seriously, can you make a difference between a GAME and COMBAT SYSTEM ?
I am talking about combat system which is FPS based more than anything else. That is how twich based combat works - the responsibility for output is weighted more into player hands instead of mechanics(ie. dice rolls, drawback mechanics, character build, etc.)
Naked fights, anyone? Yes, the game improved quite a bit since but it is still miles away from anything with depth - especialy the combat system which is still kind of the same as naked fights.
Lol man. The ultimate PvP game is a real life warfare. But i'm afraid you won't find it very entertaining on account of some things like death, wounds etc. Then there's the closest to real life combat mechanics - action's one. Where you can't be actually killed, but your avatar. It's the most "smart and balanced" mechanics because it depends on people intellect, and everybody is in the same conditions. But it looks like you don't like this mechanics too... Ok, then there's Darkfall, which isn't action because you need to build your character, you can't kill anybody with one good hit and like. But for you it sucks as well... Then there is LA 2. Where you move with point & click, there is an autotarget, autoassists and auto-everything-else. And this is "smarter and more ballanced" combat mechanics than action or DF one... And after all this crap you really want people take your words seriously? Lol.
Btw any decent geared good pvper in DF can lay down a couple of dozens naked noobs w/o losing half of his health bar...
Why is player skill defined by physical hand-eye coordination? I want to think there is more to MMORPG's than just that or else we'll be playing shooters with shallow storylines. I think skill is a combination of things and can be defined differently by different people. My view is its a combination avatar manipulation, preparation and player experience overall. Gear is involved in all RPG's and it adds a strategic layer onto the game. If you're warrior has crappy gear, he should have a harder time taking out a player in better gear.
Now I'm not one that's all about tiered gear, I'm actually against it, but more about quality of gear much like in pre-NGE SWG. Materials had attributes that defined the statistics of various crafted items. I loved the generic craftables in SWG and UO and I wish there was more of it especially in a PvP designed game.
In regards to the OP, I don't think every game's PvP revolves around RvR and actually very few emphasize it. This may be the reason why it might appear as a disappointment because the designers made the game with less emphasis on the large faction combat. Really, very few people even tried applying this concept in games like Warhammer and DAoC which were both made by the same company. I can't think of many other games that provided such a focus on that large scale type of PvP with clearly defined sides.
Why is player skill defined by physical hand-eye coordination? I want to think there is more to MMORPG's than just that or else we'll be playing shooters with shallow storylines. I think skill is a combination of things and can be defined differently by different people. My view is its a combination avatar manipulation, preparation and player experience overall. Gear is involved in all RPG's and it adds a strategic layer onto the game. If you're warrior has crappy gear, he should have a harder time taking out a player in better gear. Now I'm not one that's all about tiered gear, I'm actually against it, but more about quality of gear much like in pre-NGE SWG. Materials had attributes that defined the statistics of various crafted items. I loved the generic craftables in SWG and UO and I wish there was more of it especially in a PvP designed game. In regards to the OP, I don't think every game's PvP revolves around RvR and actually very few emphasize it. This may be the reason why it might appear as a disappointment because the designers made the game with less emphasis on the large faction combat. Really, very few people even tried applying this concept in games like Warhammer and DAoC which were both made by the same company. I can't think of many other games that provided such a focus on that large scale type of PvP with clearly defined sides.
Skill isn't just hand-eye.
Skill is all decision-making in a game, physical and mental. There's no twitch skill in Chess, but there are definitely skilled and unskilled Chess players.
Gear can certainly be a fun/interesting strategic decision, but keep in mind all the decisions in a game tend to be in tension with each other -- if gear carries too much weight the addition of that one interesting decision may undermine the value of the 6 interesting decisions made during the fight.
I agree that tiered gear works against good PVP (verticle progression bad; lateral progression good!) The reason is largely what I just described: the more influence pre-fight or non-skill factors have over victory, the less interesting decisions you'll have during the fight (and the less interesting the game's PVP will be.)
Really if you can say "that warrior's gear is crappy" in a game, I'm probably not going to be interested in its PVP. Because it infers gear has a significant enough influence over fights for people to even bother mentioning it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
the argument that skill in mmos is completely non-existent is about as relevant as an argument stating that there is no skill involved in automobile racing. two racers may have a car, different in various ways; one has better handling, the other is faster, etc. One racer could completely stomp the other, even if his "build" is not as strong. It's all about knowing what you're doing, reacting to situations, and utilizing all the possibilities which are presented to you.
And where someone in a video game may have better gear than you or what-not, there are still a vast number of uncontrollable, unpredictable factors which take place during gameplay. How you react to them and what you choose to do.. is completely up to you.
And I'll say again, Darkfall is not an FPS. It has an FPS aiming system....that is IT. I'm willing to bet that you never played past your first month (if you ever have even actually played the game) if you think that there is nothing to Darkfall combat but "FPS skill".
But hey, whatever, man. Hating on DF is the cool, trendy thing to do these days.
Seriously, can you make a difference between a GAME and COMBAT SYSTEM ?
I am talking about combat system which is FPS based more than anything else. That is how twich based combat works - the responsibility for output is weighted more into player hands instead of mechanics(ie. dice rolls, drawback mechanics, character build, etc.)
Naked fights, anyone? Yes, the game improved quite a bit since but it is still miles away from anything with depth - especialy the combat system which is still kind of the same as naked fights.
The nasty attitude is nt necessary, and doesn't help you at all.
That said, naked fights are seriously a thing of the past. Nakeds just die.
Nakeds don't have regs for spells, or equipment capable of actually accomplishing anything. Your gear makes a HUGE difference in DF.
But, all you see is the surface, apparently. You don't seem to be able to look beyond the FPS targeting system and realise taht as with any MMORPG, there are countless factors that weigh into combat....a character's skills, gear, button and UI config, the player's skills, the terrain, what mobs are in the area, surging skills and spells, the list goes on.
I can understand your lack of understanding, though. Someone who doesn't actually play the game wouldn't necessarily know exactly how cmplex the system can be. Hell, every day I play, I learn more and more about it, and I'll admit, even I was kind of startled to realise just how complex it can be, under the surface.
The issue hasnt changed: Design Decisions based on BALANCE. Rather than FREEDOM. Thats how it is because they cant afford one or a group of players destroying the game for other consumers. Everyone has to be equal, nice and happy, "everyone is a hero" mechanics. Thats why you dont see "a game where you can show who is the boss", because the 99% of those who are not the boss as soon as they find themself in the low scale of the balance, they whine and quit without even trying.
People cannot face consequences, they do not take responsabilities. They think its a game where everyone can win and everything has to be spoonfed to them.
They would never concede that they are being owned due to the fact that players are different, they always complain about as if they were superior but they blame their characters and the company for having to balance things for them. Wich is impossible, balance is an ilusion.
The solution was invented a decade ago. Stop treating your costumers as criminals.
Balance is Freedom.
In Game A, fireballs are twice as effective as sword swings. Players are forced to cast fireballs.
In Game B, fireballs are equal to swords. Players are free to choose whatever.
In a game with balanced decisions, everyone has a chance to be the boss -- assuming they make the right decisions. In a game without balance, a prison warden dominates their gameplay: some opposing character (player or NPC) who dictates what they can or can't do.
In the type of game you seem to want, there's a certain exclusivity to content which for many players means a lot less freedom.
Your post really sums up one of the big problem with pvp today. When there is so much unbalance, even in the sand box games, it seems like there is one combo that everyone uses. I think guild wars is one of the closest systems that allowed for there to be almost any combination and still have a chance at winning. however it still had plenty of power specs. Finding perfect balance isnt possible, but getting close to it, i think will produce some of the best pvp. Then it is all about strategy, and playing how you want to not how the "warden" wants you to play in order to win.
I also played a gladiator (worst class ever) and i quit when i hit lvl 70 and realized that i get 6% xp per hour leveling at a prime spot and thus i'd waste my time leveling for what purpose? The politics were ok, but EVE politics blows it away. ------------------------------- I do see what you mean though, you should give EVE a try. THe best part is the real time training so if you are abusy like me you don't have to log on and the community is mature. You will be a bit behind but you can have a role early on. Cryomatrix
p.s. i no longer live in Cambridge anymore, i live in boston on the border of roxbury
Actually Gladiators become quite bit better higher up. you really need to be about 75+, maybe even hit 79 and then they really shine. I realize that is a long way to go to see your class become exceptional but I have to say I went back and forth several times between gladiator and destroyer for my sub because glad just felt so good.
The thing about Eve is that it seems to be a game where I would have to spend a lot of time not only learning it but also delving deep under the hood. I would agree that the politics of Eve, from an outsiders view, seem to be much deeper. But my sense is that I wouuld want to devote far more time to it then I really should be. Also, and this is on me, I don't tend to warm up to sci-fi mmo's very well. I enjoy watching sci-fi, reading some of it and sci-fi solo games but the mmo's tend to lose my interest. Not that there are many of them.
By roxbury!
uh... hopefully next to the better part of roxbury!
That's a fair summary. You can play EVE on a pretty superficial basis. If you just want "fun fights" you can join Red vs Blue and basically have Arena PvP. But to get the most out of EVE you have to put a lot of thought in to it, just as you have inferred. However, it has the capability to repay more for your effort than any other MMO out there..
Having played Eve for about 6 months now, all I have to say that one of the many numerous problems with Eve's PvP is actually that there isn't any PvP.
Enemy can choose not to fight: stay station, stay in safe cloaked up, stay inside POS, or just log off. All fight you will get is where you gank someone with superior numbers (because why would you attack someone who will kill you) or if someone else ganks you. Cat and mouse game. Most of the time spent in Eve goes to figuring out how I can get a fight or preparing for one. The actual PvP fighting is a very small portion of Eve. Good (or fair) fights are a so rare that they are a thing of myth.
All this camping or hunting, not actually fighting, is getting really frustrating. Not to mention that the fights are very short and very anti-climactic.
How it made it to the top of "Which one has the best PvP"-vote can only be explained by the fact that these players have a lot of time in their hands since they are doing everything else within the game than actually fighting. They kill time while playing a game by surfing and forum posting not to mention voting Eve up at these polls. I know, look at me!
It is safe to say that when something worthwhile gets published, I will leave Eve in a blink of an eye and never look back. I'm only hoping something even remotely decent gets published before GW2 gets out. For now Eve satiates my hunger for PvP quite poorly. -No you shall not have my stuff. I would much rather turn my assets to PLEXes and donate them to charitly like Haiti.
Stop recommending games to me! I know exactly what my choices are and I've done my research. I said worthwhile! If it is something I haven't heard of already, it probably isn't!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Having played Eve for about 6 months now, all I have to say that one of the many numerous problems with Eve's PvP is actually that there isn't any PvP. Enemy can choose not to fight: stay station, stay in safe cloaked up, stay inside POS, or just log off. All fight you will get is where you gank someone with superior numbers (because why would you attack someone who will kill you) or if someone else ganks you. Cat and mouse game. Most of the time spent in Eve goes to figuring out how I can get a fight or preparing for one. The actual PvP fighting is a very small portion of Eve. Good (or fair) fights are a so rare that they are a thing of myth. All this camping or hunting, not actually fighting, is getting really frustrating. Not to mention that the fights are very short and very anti-climactic.
How it made it to the top of "Which one has the best PvP"-vote can only be explained by the fact that these players have a lot of time in their hands since they are doing everything else within the game than actually fighting. They kill time while playing a game by surfing and forum posting not to mention voting Eve up at these polls. I know, look at me!
It is safe to say that when something worthwhile gets published, I will leave Eve in a blink of an eye and never look back. I'm only hoping something even remotely decent gets published before GW2 gets out. For now Eve satiates my hunger for PvP quite poorly. -No you shall not have my stuff. I would much rather turn my assets to PLEXes and donate them to charitly like Haiti.
Stop recommending games to me! I know exactly what my choices are and I've done my research. I said worthwhile! If it is something I haven't heard of already, it probably isn't!
No doubt Kyleran will be answering this post as soon as possible.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Comments
Lol man. The ultimate PvP game is a real life warfare. But i'm afraid you won't find it very entertaining on account of some things like death, wounds etc. Then there's the closest to real life combat mechanics - action's one. Where you can't be actually killed, but your avatar. It's the most "smart and balanced" mechanics because it depends on people intellect, and everybody is in the same conditions. But it looks like you don't like this mechanics too... Ok, then there's Darkfall, which isn't action because you need to build your character, you can't kill anybody with one good hit and like. But for you it sucks as well... Then there is LA 2. Where you move with point & click, there is an autotarget, autoassists and auto-everything-else. And this is "smarter and more ballanced" combat mechanics than action or DF one... And after all this crap you really want people take your words seriously? Lol.
Btw any decent geared good pvper in DF can lay down a couple of dozens naked noobs w/o losing half of his health bar...
Why is player skill defined by physical hand-eye coordination? I want to think there is more to MMORPG's than just that or else we'll be playing shooters with shallow storylines. I think skill is a combination of things and can be defined differently by different people. My view is its a combination avatar manipulation, preparation and player experience overall. Gear is involved in all RPG's and it adds a strategic layer onto the game. If you're warrior has crappy gear, he should have a harder time taking out a player in better gear.
Now I'm not one that's all about tiered gear, I'm actually against it, but more about quality of gear much like in pre-NGE SWG. Materials had attributes that defined the statistics of various crafted items. I loved the generic craftables in SWG and UO and I wish there was more of it especially in a PvP designed game.
In regards to the OP, I don't think every game's PvP revolves around RvR and actually very few emphasize it. This may be the reason why it might appear as a disappointment because the designers made the game with less emphasis on the large faction combat. Really, very few people even tried applying this concept in games like Warhammer and DAoC which were both made by the same company. I can't think of many other games that provided such a focus on that large scale type of PvP with clearly defined sides.
Most people prefer PvP on demand over the "search for a long period of time and you might find somebody eventually"deal.
Most people don't want to deal with bullshit politics to have fun in a game (LFG system, anyone?).
Most people are risk averse.
Most people like fair fights.
Combine them and you'll get WoW's PvP.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Skill isn't just hand-eye.
Skill is all decision-making in a game, physical and mental. There's no twitch skill in Chess, but there are definitely skilled and unskilled Chess players.
Gear can certainly be a fun/interesting strategic decision, but keep in mind all the decisions in a game tend to be in tension with each other -- if gear carries too much weight the addition of that one interesting decision may undermine the value of the 6 interesting decisions made during the fight.
I agree that tiered gear works against good PVP (verticle progression bad; lateral progression good!) The reason is largely what I just described: the more influence pre-fight or non-skill factors have over victory, the less interesting decisions you'll have during the fight (and the less interesting the game's PVP will be.)
Really if you can say "that warrior's gear is crappy" in a game, I'm probably not going to be interested in its PVP. Because it infers gear has a significant enough influence over fights for people to even bother mentioning it.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
the argument that skill in mmos is completely non-existent is about as relevant as an argument stating that there is no skill involved in automobile racing. two racers may have a car, different in various ways; one has better handling, the other is faster, etc. One racer could completely stomp the other, even if his "build" is not as strong. It's all about knowing what you're doing, reacting to situations, and utilizing all the possibilities which are presented to you.
And where someone in a video game may have better gear than you or what-not, there are still a vast number of uncontrollable, unpredictable factors which take place during gameplay. How you react to them and what you choose to do.. is completely up to you.
Seriously, can you make a difference between a GAME and COMBAT SYSTEM ?
I am talking about combat system which is FPS based more than anything else. That is how twich based combat works - the responsibility for output is weighted more into player hands instead of mechanics(ie. dice rolls, drawback mechanics, character build, etc.)
Naked fights, anyone? Yes, the game improved quite a bit since but it is still miles away from anything with depth - especialy the combat system which is still kind of the same as naked fights.
The nasty attitude is nt necessary, and doesn't help you at all.
That said, naked fights are seriously a thing of the past. Nakeds just die.
Nakeds don't have regs for spells, or equipment capable of actually accomplishing anything. Your gear makes a HUGE difference in DF.
But, all you see is the surface, apparently. You don't seem to be able to look beyond the FPS targeting system and realise taht as with any MMORPG, there are countless factors that weigh into combat....a character's skills, gear, button and UI config, the player's skills, the terrain, what mobs are in the area, surging skills and spells, the list goes on.
I can understand your lack of understanding, though. Someone who doesn't actually play the game wouldn't necessarily know exactly how cmplex the system can be. Hell, every day I play, I learn more and more about it, and I'll admit, even I was kind of startled to realise just how complex it can be, under the surface.
IMO, it beats the Hell out of "Tab, 1, 2, 3".
Balance is Freedom.
In a game with balanced decisions, everyone has a chance to be the boss -- assuming they make the right decisions. In a game without balance, a prison warden dominates their gameplay: some opposing character (player or NPC) who dictates what they can or can't do.
In the type of game you seem to want, there's a certain exclusivity to content which for many players means a lot less freedom.
Your post really sums up one of the big problem with pvp today. When there is so much unbalance, even in the sand box games, it seems like there is one combo that everyone uses. I think guild wars is one of the closest systems that allowed for there to be almost any combination and still have a chance at winning. however it still had plenty of power specs. Finding perfect balance isnt possible, but getting close to it, i think will produce some of the best pvp. Then it is all about strategy, and playing how you want to not how the "warden" wants you to play in order to win.
Actually Gladiators become quite bit better higher up. you really need to be about 75+, maybe even hit 79 and then they really shine. I realize that is a long way to go to see your class become exceptional but I have to say I went back and forth several times between gladiator and destroyer for my sub because glad just felt so good.
The thing about Eve is that it seems to be a game where I would have to spend a lot of time not only learning it but also delving deep under the hood. I would agree that the politics of Eve, from an outsiders view, seem to be much deeper. But my sense is that I wouuld want to devote far more time to it then I really should be. Also, and this is on me, I don't tend to warm up to sci-fi mmo's very well. I enjoy watching sci-fi, reading some of it and sci-fi solo games but the mmo's tend to lose my interest. Not that there are many of them.
By roxbury!
uh... hopefully next to the better part of roxbury!
That's a fair summary. You can play EVE on a pretty superficial basis. If you just want "fun fights" you can join Red vs Blue and basically have Arena PvP. But to get the most out of EVE you have to put a lot of thought in to it, just as you have inferred. However, it has the capability to repay more for your effort than any other MMO out there..
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Having played Eve for about 6 months now, all I have to say that one of the many numerous problems with Eve's PvP is actually that there isn't any PvP.
Enemy can choose not to fight: stay station, stay in safe cloaked up, stay inside POS, or just log off. All fight you will get is where you gank someone with superior numbers (because why would you attack someone who will kill you) or if someone else ganks you. Cat and mouse game. Most of the time spent in Eve goes to figuring out how I can get a fight or preparing for one. The actual PvP fighting is a very small portion of Eve. Good (or fair) fights are a so rare that they are a thing of myth.
All this camping or hunting, not actually fighting, is getting really frustrating. Not to mention that the fights are very short and very anti-climactic.
How it made it to the top of "Which one has the best PvP"-vote can only be explained by the fact that these players have a lot of time in their hands since they are doing everything else within the game than actually fighting. They kill time while playing a game by surfing and forum posting not to mention voting Eve up at these polls. I know, look at me!
It is safe to say that when something worthwhile gets published, I will leave Eve in a blink of an eye and never look back. I'm only hoping something even remotely decent gets published before GW2 gets out. For now Eve satiates my hunger for PvP quite poorly. -No you shall not have my stuff. I would much rather turn my assets to PLEXes and donate them to charitly like Haiti.
Stop recommending games to me! I know exactly what my choices are and I've done my research. I said worthwhile! If it is something I haven't heard of already, it probably isn't!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
No doubt Kyleran will be answering this post as soon as possible.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
The nasty attitude is nt necessary, and doesn't help you at all.
No nasty attitude at all.
Simple answer 'No' would be sufficient but I could extract it from your post though.