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Itemshop vs. Gold farmers/buyers
Seggallion
Member UncommonPosts: 684
Heya!
It's alot talking about Itemshops and the downside of being able to buy your way to the top. This is something I and many others don't like. But isn't it the same when people buying gold "illegal" to buy gear/mounts/stuff?
Most games to date has an ruind ecomony because of the gold farmers/buyers.
I think it's in the developers hands to have those things balanced. But can they really do anything about it? With the current economy system most games have?
Itemshops puts and end to the grind for gold and farmers wont make near the same profit for selling gold. But it the end it's the same as buying gold but the developers gets the profit?
Anyone who have played Entropia on a serius level knows that if you got money to spend then you're in the lead. But do we really want this in our regular games?
And yes, I know most games doesn't have game breaking itemshops but isn't this going the wrong direction?
And how is a well balanced and fair itemshop going to work? How much money can you spend on the game, endless?
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Comments
Your talking about goldsellers ruining an ingame economy , yet you think players buying gold in an item shop is ok.
There can not be a balanced ingame economy if outside real money creates money out of no where, when someone pays in the itemshop for gold. Its even worse then goldsellers, because at some point in the game that gold has been farmed ingame.
I do not support games where you buy your way to the top.
Buying gold in many games can get you banned. It's called cheating. You can never stop everyone from cheating.
That's different from simply adding the mechanic to your game.
Have you heard of the tests that high school kids take every year? Or the SAT, the test you take to get into college?
Well, what's the difference from a kid cheating on his SAT, and the test admins deciding that anyone can use their cell phone to call people and get answers?
Wouldn't that be the same?
As you can see, it isn't the same.
In the first example, a person is breaking the rules, but the majority of them are follwing the rules, and some people will get caught breaking the rules and be punished.
In the second example, the entire test results have been modified, and their value has drastically changed since anyone can call and get the answers, and you're now SUPPOSED to do that sort of behavior.
So one is, people will sometimes cheat, the other is you're SUPPOSED to buy gold at the shop.
Two different games IMO.
Buying gold in many games can get you banned. It's called cheating. You can never stop everyone from cheating.
That's different from simply adding the mechanic to your game.
Have you heard of the tests that high school kids take every year? Or the SAT, the test you take to get into college?
Well, what's the difference from a kid cheating on his SAT, and the test admins deciding that anyone can use their cell phone to call people and get answers?
Wouldn't that be the same?
As you can see, it isn't the same.
In the first example, a person is breaking the rules, but the majority of them are follwing the rules, and some people will get caught breaking the rules and be punished.
In the second example, the entire test results have been modified, and their value has drastically changed since anyone can call and get the answers, and you're now SUPPOSED to do that sort of behavior.
So one is, people will sometimes cheat, the other is you're SUPPOSED to buy gold at the shop.
Two different games IMO.
The difference is semantic and a matter of degree. If 90% of the SAT takers found some way to cheat with no detection. The value of the test goes down, even if it is against policy to cheat.
So the question is how prevalent is gold buying in MMO that bans it. If 90% of players can buy with impunity, there is no substantial difference between that, and a game that put item shop in game. Heck, we know that only a SMALL percentage of players use item shops .. so the actual percentage of gold buyers need to equalize the effect is quite low.
So it is a matter of degree.
Buying gold in many games can get you banned. It's called cheating. You can never stop everyone from cheating.
That's different from simply adding the mechanic to your game.
Have you heard of the tests that high school kids take every year? Or the SAT, the test you take to get into college?
Well, what's the difference from a kid cheating on his SAT, and the test admins deciding that anyone can use their cell phone to call people and get answers?
Wouldn't that be the same?
As you can see, it isn't the same.
In the first example, a person is breaking the rules, but the majority of them are follwing the rules, and some people will get caught breaking the rules and be punished.
In the second example, the entire test results have been modified, and their value has drastically changed since anyone can call and get the answers, and you're now SUPPOSED to do that sort of behavior.
So one is, people will sometimes cheat, the other is you're SUPPOSED to buy gold at the shop.
Two different games IMO.
The difference is semantic and a matter of degree. If 90% of the SAT takers found some way to cheat with no detection. The value of the test goes down, even if it is against policy to cheat.
So the question is how prevalent is gold buying in MMO that bans it. If 90% of players can buy with impunity, there is no substantial difference between that, and a game that put item shop in game. Heck, we know that only a SMALL percentage of players use item shops .. so the actual percentage of gold buyers need to equalize the effect is quite low.
So it is a matter of degree.
I don't know where you get that number, that 90% of players on P2P games like WoW buy gold from illegal gold sellers.
I don't think that's accurate.
True, a small percentage of players buy items in cash shop games. Because the free players are willing to play a crappy game, because they can't afford P2P or items.
Would you rather buy a steak, or have a free hot dog? For a lot of people there is no choice, it's either the free hot dog or nothing.
Buying gold in many games can get you banned. It's called cheating. You can never stop everyone from cheating.
That's different from simply adding the mechanic to your game.
Have you heard of the tests that high school kids take every year? Or the SAT, the test you take to get into college?
Well, what's the difference from a kid cheating on his SAT, and the test admins deciding that anyone can use their cell phone to call people and get answers?
Wouldn't that be the same?
As you can see, it isn't the same.
In the first example, a person is breaking the rules, but the majority of them are follwing the rules, and some people will get caught breaking the rules and be punished.
In the second example, the entire test results have been modified, and their value has drastically changed since anyone can call and get the answers, and you're now SUPPOSED to do that sort of behavior.
So one is, people will sometimes cheat, the other is you're SUPPOSED to buy gold at the shop.
Two different games IMO.
The difference is semantic and a matter of degree. If 90% of the SAT takers found some way to cheat with no detection. The value of the test goes down, even if it is against policy to cheat.
So the question is how prevalent is gold buying in MMO that bans it. If 90% of players can buy with impunity, there is no substantial difference between that, and a game that put item shop in game. Heck, we know that only a SMALL percentage of players use item shops .. so the actual percentage of gold buyers need to equalize the effect is quite low.
So it is a matter of degree.
I don't know where you get that number, that 90% of players on P2P games like WoW buy gold from illegal gold sellers.
I don't think that's accurate.
True, a small percentage of players buy items in cash shop games. Because the free players are willing to play a crappy game, because they can't afford P2P or items.
Would you rather buy a steak, or have a free hot dog? For a lot of people there is no choice, it's either the free hot dog or nothing.
I said "if" .. making a hypothetical argument.
But the crucial part is whether you think there are higher or lower, as a percentage, of people on WOW buying gold compared to those use item shops in a F2P game.
And your analogy is not accurate. We are NOT discussing the quality of the game but whether illegal buying gold has the same effect as item shops, keeping everything equal.
To me the perfect cash shop model is what is used in DDO. You have the ability to play a portion for free, buy points to unlock certain things you may want, or pay a monthly fee to essentially unlock everything and get points per month to spend on shop items.
It may not be perfect but it is one of the fairest and most reasonable models I have seen. I wouldn't mind seeing a high quality mmo go this model if it made all three avenues available. The problem you run into in some games is that in essence they want you to spend a hell of a lot more than $15-20 a month so I'm not real sure how many will offer a monthly sub that would allow a player willing to pay a monthly fee the same advantages as goofballs willing to spend thousands of dollars over the span of a year on a game.
I'm up for anything that gets rid of gold buyers and sellers though. Moreso the buyers because without them the sellers would vanish anyways. Although if the constant threat of having their personal information stolen isn't a deterrant considering how often it happens to them I doubt much of anything will besides a game alomst eradicating a market for it completely.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Funny enough- SOE games such as EQ2 allow players to buy Plat from other players via a sanctioned RMT shop which SOE runs on certain servers... The "Claim" it would keep illegal gold sellers out of the game by essentially "legalizing" gold selling (as long as SOE got ITS cut)
I did a comparative measure before quitting the game by googling EQ2 Gold Vox server and was astonished to find that on every website which popped up, you could buy Illegal Plat for far cheaper than the "legally sanctioned" Plat (which is entirly the same thing)
-That being said, I dont know if those Goldsellers were "safe" or actually honored those prices but its funny that SOE would ban you if they caught you buying "unsanctioned" Plat for cheaper than the "sanctioned" plat... ITS ALL CHEATING (but one method let SOE take a cut- thus that method was "legal" and NOT considered cheating) =/
Frankly I am opposed to ANY RMT in a subscription game- Fluff or not... In a F2P (pay to win) game, I dont care. I dont play those games nor will I ever play those games.
The people who claim "I played (insert "F2P" game here) for 2 years and never spent a dime) are casual players who never saw endgame either. I am NOT a Casual Gamer and to max out a toon and be competitive in a F2P game would cost far more than a subscription game. F2P games are great for kids, casuals and powergamers who like to "buy" their way to the top and be "ubur" because they spend lots of money on virtual items that others do not (thus they can stand out- Not on ability but on bank account)
I see no difference between RMT and Gold selling/buying EXCEPT that one nets the publisher a cut (and they overcharge) and one does not.
This trend of adding RMT Ca$h $hops to subscription games is sick, profit driven greed... I quit a game over this, will never play a game that has this and will find a new hobby if it becomes impossible to avoid. I am 34 years old and have had at leat 1 sub to a game since 1998 (except a brief period last year) plus have bought box after box after expansion after expansion- Thats quite a bit of money over time (money well spent IMO) that willl leave MMOs entirly if this continues.
Again, in a "F2P" (pay to win) I dont much care- I understand the system and how it works and I avoid it... Keep it out f my sub games... AND If someone breaks the rules in a sub game and buys gold, I really dont much care about that either as they are few and far between and this really just gives them money to but MY stuff on the AH- In other words, I can still compete.
That argument would still be pretty stupid. If 90 percent of people find a way to cheat in the SAT without getting caught, more and more university would either look at the score with very little importance or simple disregard it all together and requited the applicant to take a test design and administer by the university itself so they can more accurately gauge the level of the person intellect.
Bring all this back to online gaming. The reason why gold is worth something is because there is an accepted value to it. Even with gold seller, the amount of gold they injected to the economy is relatively small compare to the developer open up a shop of their own. Now I am assuming all of this argument is meant for P2P games, this would greatly cheapen the value of the ingame currency and totally destroy the economy. Now a piece of rare rock that cost 100 gold before now suddenly skyrocket to 1000 gold. Forcing people who want it to either spend an ungodly amount of time farming for the gold or the item itself to get their hand on it or pony up some real cash and guy ingame gold.
This is fine and all for F2P game since people coming into the game already expect things like this to happen and understand that the developer need to make money somehow. However, in a P2P game, action like this I would assume angered the majority of the player cause they feel they already paying their due. Item shop now makes them feel like the developer are punishing them for not paying enough for the game. Furthermore, people in general like the idea of equality. It is bad enough that people are often being beaten by the other guy wallet in real life. I doubt anyone really want to experience that ingame also.
Another example of the "SAT" thing would be that, yes, some cheaters may get into University based on fraudulent scores BUT many rich folk just bypass the whole thing by becoming "Donators" to the University and in effect "buying" their Childrens way in regardless of intellect or lack thereof . Which is worse? lol.
I don't think that "people buy it illegally if there is no item shop" argument makes any sense.
First: developers can stop the goldfarming and goldselling. If and how well they stop it is just a matter of how urgent the developers consider that problem to be sold.
Second: most people don't buy gold from farmers.
And third: In many games, gold ain't the most important thing. So the few people buying the stuff won't get that much ahead.
I'm no fan of item shops. I agree they make sense as a way to finance a game, and they're good for people who can't spend a single cent, or who have that much money to spend that they want to buy their way to the top. But in other cases, they don't make much sense imho.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
1) I don't think developers can stop it. Even blizzard, with the deepest pocket, a strong stance against gold trading, and banned tons of account, NEVER stop the practice. Just look at all the gold selling companies making profits year after year.
2) Sure. And most players don't use item shops. So both are comparable.
3) It depends on the game, obviously. However, on the most popular game, WOW, since the latest content patch, there are four slot that you can buy current tier items (craft leg/boots, BOE ring/bracer). If you go down a tier or two, more slots open up. So gold *can be* important in outfitting a toon, not to mention mount and raid level consumables.
The difference is simple:
1. its legal, allowed and enforced by developersd design.
2. its illegal, if the developers discover it both the seller and the buyer gets banned, they characters and accounts tracked and banned. They advertise in game, a screenshot and their banned. They advertise in their community, one report and their banned. They advertise outside, someone reports them, they get banned.
Its not semantic. Its not the same thing.
There is a risk envolved in one. In other the whole game mechanics is addapted to enforce it.
In 1, people have to actually spend to compete, the game design sucks, everything is changed so people are forced into buying the cash shop items, and if they dont, they have to hit their heads against a wall to get anywhere, because the developer specifically programed it so people DO NOT WANT TO GO to play the "free" version.
In 2, if you cant compete and suspect someone buys or sell gold, report them. Everyone will report them. The top of the piramide will be always on look out.
This argument implying that "abusive cash shops are ok, because people would do it outside" is a falacy. The scope difference is gigantic, the efffect differences for the players is absurd.
In f2p games, there is no escape, no hope, nothing, because developers make your life miserable because you did not spent money to get the cash shop items.
In a subscription based game where some, notice the "some", buy gold, it doesnt nowhere near the same effect.
Doesnt affect everyone as item shops does, and those it might affect, is the tip of the piramide, and there is a huge risk envolved, and those are natural suspects.
Gold sellers are doing something illegal. They have to go out and advertise. And then, they have to get in-game and do the illegal transaction, that will remain on the logs. The unique item ids, the items history, the ips of the accounts, the reports...
"Its just semantic". LOL