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PvP content in Age of Conan -- it's either not working, badly designed, or none existant
SirPaco
Member UncommonPosts: 358
ok here we go.
I'll start with the positive sides of PvP in AoC, cause that won't be long (although ya we know, quality isn't quantiy).
PvP in AoC rocks because of the combat system. It's been said before and I'll say it again, a combination of good graphics, smooth animation, combos for melee and ranger and general gameplay makes fighting in AoC extremly immersive if not realistic and absolutely addictive.
Class balance has improved (although still needs improvement) and the CC system works better.
But that's where it ends.
Because as far as actual content, there really isn't much going for this game, and I'll deal with each side one by one.
1. World PvP
The PvP xp system, but especially the statistics showing your kill/death ratio promotes mindless ganking in world pvp making life very hard for any newbies.
The only alternative for a level 80 is to fight at keshatta oasis. This small zone is usually dominated by one group or one big group of players running around bored cause everyone else is AFK, or it's empty, or you do sometimes get good fights between guilds.
However when the bigger fights occur, players experience extreme lag and often end up crashing the zone. (I'm talking 24 vs 24 kind of fight).
At any rate, you can hardly call this pvp content and it does get boring and tedious after a while...
Funcom has stated that PvP should be taken to the "border kingdoms" which run on different hardware. However, there is no incentive to go there.
2. Minigames
With the latest patch, Funcom PvP devs introduced a change in the PvP XP system. This change is one of the most narrow minded and short term decisions I have seen and has as a consequence created conditions for playing a game in the most hallucinating way.
Let me explain, when you join a minigame, you earn more xp if you win the game and less xp if you lose it. However, in both cases, the amount of XP you earn increases with time played.
The most popular game on my server is Hallowed Vaults, which is a "capture the flag" game. To win the game, you must score 3 flags, be the team with most flags when the time runs out, or be the team with most kills if it's a tie when the time runs out.
The thing is, there are many "premades" playing these games. Premades are teams of friends or guild mates that form a group before the game and join together (as opposed to Pick Up Groups who join individually). The thing is, PUGs will very rarely have a "balanced" setup, often lacking healers or mages etc.
This means that a premade, simply because of the dependance on classes, will dominate the game.
Now when you get a team, premade or not, which dominates a game, in most cases this team will try to ensure that the game lasts the full 20 minutes so that it may earn the full XP from the game. This is because the players are not certain of having such a positive result in the next game.
On the other side, players in a weak team usually stop fighting after a short while when they see that their chances are small. So they just go AFK at the rez pad.
Conclusion --> you have teams with 2 flags scored, not doing anything, literarly sitting there for 20 minutes, waiting for game to end, and enemy doing the same at rez pad....
If enemy does not go afk, they get farmed again and again and agian because there is no incentive for the dominating team to finish the game.
This was done to prevent guilds from joining the same minigame and doing quick games one after the other (exploiting for PvP XP) but the result is that it has made the game boring, frustrating, if not down right irritating for most players.
Funcom has stated that they did not believe this system needed to be changed at this time.
3. PvP end game content --> massive epic battles, Battle Keep sieges and defense.
These have not worked properly since the game was launched over a year and a half ago.
Just recently, Funcom announced a "hardware upgrade" that promised to fix the lag and crashes.
It seems on some servers and in many cases that this really helped, however on the most populated PvP server in EU, although sometimes improved, in most cases the problem is the same as before.
Players experience crazy lag making combat impossible and unbearrable, and in most cases, the sieges crash. It is speculated that players are crashing the sieges (consciously or not).
Funcom has stated offiicaly that they were "looking at the logs" on the server on which this was happening, but that their priority at the moment was working on the expansion.
So to conclude this little wall of text :
Even though AoC has one of the most original and immersive combat systems I have ever played or come across making fighting in PvP one of the most enjoyable experiences I have ever had in an online game, there is no working PvP content on the server I play on.
--> World PvP is not rewarding, lags, and crashes
--> Minigames are for most players 20 minutes of AFK time at best and a farm fest at worst
--> Sieges don't work, they lag like crazy and crash most of the time.
After releasing T3 PVE content and a renown system that exponentially favours Valor and Artistry (pve and crafting) over Glory (PvP), they next focused on the expansion which, as stated officialy by Funcom, will contain no PvP content at all.
We do know there is content in the pipeline (Shrines of Bori and PvP towers) but these are not due until after the expansion, and we do not know how many weeks (months?) this will be from now.
comments are welcome, but be carefull cause the mods on these forums are extremists.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
Comments
Going by the O-boards, it seems pretty much everyone would agree with your findings. I'm sure there are multiple reasons why it's in this state but many seem to think that the old lead favored PvE over Pvp and the new is more of a 50/50 type, so it's possible fixes will be coming. If they put the same effort / thought into Pvp as they did in PvE you should end up with a really good experience.
Something to remember, although conceptualized as a Pvp game, AoC was designed and launched as a PvE game. I'm of the opinion that anytime you try to design a joint Pvp / PvE game, one side or the other is going to be negleted. In AoC, that side was Pvp.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Seems they fixed the PvE
Now they will repair PvP
So they can release the expansion pack, and use it to make a new start for the game......
After the worst release in history, the devs must realise that before releasing the Expansion they must have a top knotch game, this requires both PvE and PvP...... So i am pretty sure that the next patch before release of the expansion pack will adress most if not all PvP issues..
If they fix it like this, and release a grade A expansion they might have a relaunch of the game at hands and pull back those that left a month after release. If they leave PvP in its current state... they will miss a huge ammount of new subs based on what people read on these boards.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
They have stated on different communication tools (twitter, forums etc) officialy that there would be no PvP content until after the expansion. Bori Shrines will come after.
What is worrying me is it seems like the siege fixes are coming after also
(although I have had improved experiences in some sieges (((see other thread about sieges))))
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
They have stated on different communication tools (twitter, forums etc) officialy that there would be no PvP content until after the expansion. Bori Shrines will come after.
What is worrying me is it seems like the siege fixes are coming after also
(although I have had improved experiences in some sieges (((see other thread about sieges))))
You are quite right.
I think that it is the right thing to do (to get the expansion out first). Look at it from an "owners" perspective. If you owned Funcom or had a stake in it what would be the right course of action from a business perspective (which includes loyalty, customer service, profits etc) Obvious as an Owner you would be wanting to hear feedback like this and have systems to be presented in place asap to remedy situations like above. However, at the same time the game is on the cusp of it's first expansion. So what do you do? If it was me I would dish out the expac first and then do a massive PVP update (Bori,Towers, etc)
I would want full focus on the PvP side of things. Because they are aware of issues to begin with, that is why the "Shrines" came about in the first place, previously planned and now openly communicated to let people know there is a focus but it will be at a time and place so we don't think they are not doing anything or do not have anything planned at all. Again, as an Owner I couldn't commit to an exact date because I am trying to work with feedback given previous about not committing if it is not ready so I don't want to let you down again.
So what are the choice?
Either qualify the game for your time, money and suspected release date of expansion, whether to continue to play and not have the full service, or wait it out, provide feedback like this, minor tweaks can be done here and there and every bit of feedback helps.
Ultimately as an "Owner" though I would want to be upfront and honest with you as best I could be so you can make a better informed decision about what you would like to do, I think Funcom is doing that. They are not dismissing the issues, attempting some minor fixes but cannot commit to full focus until the current 'job' is out of the weigh. That is fair enough, but as an Owner I would respect your decision either way and thank you regardless of the feedback provided.
Now if only can justify employing another 20 people for a PVP update team! that would be nice, but alas, I am not the owner!
Good stuff that you collated this Paco.
I can understand that they take it slowly a few months before the expansion, the devs are probably really busy right now but the op is right. These are issues that needs to be fixed if they want the PvP to be as good as the PvE.
The mini-game issue is actually really easily fix (just change the reward to be more the faster you win, which is more logical) and should be fixed ASAP.
The sieges seems to be harder, they have been working on and off to fix them since launch. It is probably better to revamp the whole thing after the expansion.
And the open world PvP is he hardest thing to fix. Once the new zones comes out will Khesh probably not be so crowded but the general ganking noob problem isn't easy to solve. Most games with open PvP have the same problem and they will need a lot of thinking to solve that.
They have stated on different communication tools (twitter, forums etc) officialy that there would be no PvP content until after the expansion. Bori Shrines will come after.
What is worrying me is it seems like the siege fixes are coming after also
(although I have had improved experiences in some sieges (((see other thread about sieges))))
You are quite right.
(((((()))))Now if only can justify employing another 20 people for a PVP update team! that would be nice, but alas, I am not the owner!
Good stuff that you collated this Paco.
Thanks Avery, but I strongly disagree with what you write. Because of 3 things.
1. First thing and this is the most important thing, is that PvP content is not demanding on ressources.
Basically what I mean is it does not take much to keep PvP players busy because the main interest in PvP is fighting vs other players. Take for example a famous game called Counter Strike or DotA which were played for months (years?) on the same map by hundreds and thousands of people even at a very competitive level. These were player made maps!!!!!!!!!!
I am 100% certain that it took funcom more ressources to come out with Iron Tower than Hallowed Vaults. However, if Hallowed Vaults worked properly (I am talking of simply changing the way the xp works), it would keep players busy (and happy) for a long time.
Here is a simple calculation for you :
How many times (on average) would you estimate a PVE player goes to Iron Tower a week? (over one year)
Now how many times (on average) does a PvP player go to Hallowed Vaults? (over one year)
Conclusion, it is more efficient (with regards to ressources) to keep PvP players happy because the main interest in PvP content is created by the players themselves --> achievement, competition, ranking etc.
2. The last patch gave a huge amount of PvE content (which required much ressources right?)
forums-eu.ageofconan.com/showthread.php you can check that thread, where I openly ask which will be a priority to which the Game Director replies "we will see, depends on player feedback".
Well in that thread, almost everyone, including PVE players, were begging for pvp content basically saying "thanks for the T3 raiding and renown now please give PvP players something to do before you get the expansion out". You can read the posts yourself.
They said they would listen to player feedback. Player feedback was overwhelmingly asking for PvP content ASAP (just check responses in that thread (also check from what servers the posts are from --> not only pvp servers)).....
3. And this is one point I've written many times before.
If you look at all the other MMORPGs on the market, what would you say is AoC's "competitive advantage"? Do you think AoC shines by the PvE side of the game? Or the crafting and RP possibilities? (compared to LOTR or even WoW)
No!!! The one and main (huge) difference between AoC and almost every other MMORPG out there is the combat system. And where that combat system really makes a difference is in PvP because in PvE I can eat, drink phone or even watch a movie while pressing attack with my left hand....
It would make good strategic sense to focus on this aspect of the game because it is in this area that its holds the most potential (especially when comparing it to other games). Because if you invest much in the PvE side (which is exactly what they are doing), you will make it a ok, or even good PvE game, but it won't be anything special compared to other MMORPGs on the market.
Think these 3 points more than justify re structuring the dev team and setting new priorities IMO.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
the ONLY problem about the minigames is they are afraid of guilds exploiting the system and joining together in games, doing fast games and farming a lot of xp and glory ......
sieges does seem to be harder, but they started fixing them and this showed a lot of improvement in many cases, why don't they finish the job?
Open world is probably the toughest and I guess we will have to wait for proper content like the shrines or towers...
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
I can understand the OP to some degree as I`m sure FC has not focused too much on PvP the last year, but I guess they have decided what to place their bettings on, and now its the expansion, and the expansion only!
This might seem unfair to many, but lets say 60% like PvE and 40% like PvP. Sure the PvP side is still a little angry, but FC see more cash in PvE at the short time horizon. Of course, I belive the GD and the devs that PvP is wanted by them, but its more complex, and requires more time, and they probally have limited time and resoruces on the game as a whole.
First we will get a 100% pure PvE utdate in form of a expansion, then with the bugfixing, they will start working on Towers, and Bori ASAP they have secured themselves future income.
first, we got that 100% pve update, it was patch 1.06
second, it takes more ressources to work on pve content than pvp content
how much time do you think it would take a (competent) pvp dev to fix the XP issue in hallowed vaults? Because that is all it would take to make it enjoyable.
Hell, if they worked more than 2 hours they might even find a solution to seperate premades form PUGs or introduce some sort of ranking or even cross server games!!
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
With respect to mini-game maps and additional resources to make new ones;
As I've never done one I don't know what's actually in them so I'm just going with the thought that it's a battlefield area of different terrians with different objective points on it.
Why not re-use the various city and village maps just stripped of NPC's? Would that work? After all fighting in Khemi would require different tactic's than Burshur (closed vs open environment).
The artwork alread exists so no new development there is needed and the coding of the objectives would have to be less there then in a brand new one.
Just a thought
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
I actually like your idea. But it will prob be shotdown by the lorestalkers.
It is refreshing to see a valid argument and point of view in a thread without trolls simply spouting off retarted jargin about how they hate the game. I agree that the pvp needs to be revamped, and hope they do because the combat system is amazingly fun and even though im a noob, i can hold my own against most characters as long as i am questing with a buddy. in my server there is hardly ever any minigames going and people need to spam global chat just to get more players in. most of the time other people say dont join its a premade...which is discouraging. i liked pvp in warhammer but the glitches in the game were so numerous i finally had to hang it up and im glad i did because i tried AoC. i hope the expansion brings in more people so they are at least full all the time. theres no reason a 6v6 game on any server with a combat system as awesome as this one is should be empty...ever...perhaps making two types of minigames would solve the problem. have an organized guild based minigame, and a pug just for casual gamers minigame where different rewards and xp were rewarded would make them more popular. the latter of course being you cannot be in a group before you Q for this type. random 6v6 matches would be refreshing anyways, and keep me comming back. even if its just for something different than questing for an hour or so. anyways, just wanted to put my two cents in because a thread with mature people stating their points of view is extremely rare.
uber black and red temple of nod gaming case
4 fuckin gigs of random access memory
ge force chopper sick balls over 9000 vid card bra
holy shit im bragging about my computer to play mmo's processor!
ive just come back to aoc to see what changes have been made and theres a few minor ones but nothing for the high end player execpt to make a new toon. as for the pvp ...... well after 6 hours in of waiting i gave up ive been back a while and every time i get on first thing i click on the mini game , so far ive done 1 and its sad but its cos theres jut not enough ppl on the game to keep a pvp content afloat. they need to inject about 2000 ppl more in the prime time , cos some will be on when some arnt and this and that then maybe we can have a mini game every hour or so. problem is they need to bring ppl back and keep them there and thats going to be hard , those that are still there from day one are most likey leveling other toons and want to grind , and those who returned are few . its a terrbile waste too the game has alot of things that make it a good game ,. i think they realsed it a year early is all , needed more fine tuning
- Premades should dominate, "match finder" games are for Activision/Blizzard
- They don't work on PvE servers /care
[Mod edit]
- Gank or go home, carebear
- Premades should dominate, "match finder" games are for Activision/Blizzard
- They don't work on PvE servers /care
My issue is not with me being ganked, but with newbies, as you can read in the quote you yourself took. I am not a newbie.
The problem is the newbies joining the game end up leaving the game instead of changing server.
With regards to your point about premades, there is a difference between "having an advantage" and "total domination each time", what many players ask for is for 2 different queus. 1 for the premade, the other for the PUGs
With regards to your last comment, they don't work on EU's biggest PvP server.
And I will refrain from tearing you down personally
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.