I think the responses here highlight what Richard was getting across, fun is a personal thing.
Though no one here has said they enjoy the timesinks.
If we look at challenge, this can be applied to a game in a number of ways, the main one in MMOs these days is that all the challenge comes from finding the time to do something, rather than the doing something. So you need to raid the same instance 40 times for a new weapon, the challenge is doing the raid 40 times, not actually anything within the raid itself.
I don't think there is a happy medium out there, I don't think you can make a game that is fun to everyone, so when you do try to make a game that appeals to everyone, you aim at the lowest common denominator and put in bits that are fun to each group of people, hoping that those bits are enough to keep people playing through the parts they don't like. That is what mass market is all about, and that is something that WoW does pretty well.
I would, for once, like to see someone try to make an MMO that didn't attempt to appeal to that lowest common denominator, but didn't also push itself right to the other extreme, like EVE or Darkfall do.
The writer makes another kind of mistake - a logical error - when he selects a particular feature, and what people would do if they had an alternative, and concluding that therefore that feature does not belong. Evaluating a game experience is not easy.
It's the whole experience that is fun or not --- just like in software programming --- be very careful of the side effects of making "obvious" changes to a selected feature.
Just one example. Very popular to detest the downtime in the orignal EQ - regaining mana mainly, looking at a book!
Yet it can be argued that this kind of downtime contributed greatly to the community, and in the long run, make the overall experience more fun. When people pop from one combat to another, do they ever interact enough to build a community?
After the POK arrived many concluded that EQ took a serious turn for the worse. And that provided easy travel just about everywhere.
I think the responses here highlight what Richard was getting across, fun is a personal thing. Though no one here has said they enjoy the timesinks.
If we look at challenge, this can be applied to a game in a number of ways, the main one in MMOs these days is that all the challenge comes from finding the time to do something, rather than the doing something. So you need to raid the same instance 40 times for a new weapon, the challenge is doing the raid 40 times, not actually anything within the raid itself.
I don't think there is a happy medium out there, I don't think you can make a game that is fun to everyone, so when you do try to make a game that appeals to everyone, you aim at the lowest common denominator and put in bits that are fun to each group of people, hoping that those bits are enough to keep people playing through the parts they don't like. That is what mass market is all about, and that is something that WoW does pretty well. I would, for once, like to see someone try to make an MMO that didn't attempt to appeal to that lowest common denominator, but didn't also push itself right to the other extreme, like EVE or Darkfall do.
Well when we goto a hockey game,we have to pack our gear,drive the car to the arena,gear up,pre skate.The game does not come to us,but we do it because it is fun !.No matter what form of entertainment you do it is still fun and requitres some time/cost.People are just incredibly lazy.I think the truth of the matter is people do a lot of complaining,because the game or mechanics ar really NOT fun at all,to witch i have no idea why these players are in that game playing it.This is why players complain of downtime,they are in a hurry to rush through the boring game,they are in a hurry to gain levels,these players logoff thinking that gaining a level is their satisfaction or accomplishment.Well anyone that plays a game just to gain levels,is playing for the wrong reasons ,so they will never be happy,if the game they are playing is fun,they do not care about anything else,except maybe the players or community.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The writer makes another kind of mistake - a logical error - when he selects a particular feature, and what people would do if they had an alternative, and concluding that therefore that feature does not belong. Evaluating a game experience is not easy. It's the whole experience that is fun or not --- just like in software programming --- be very careful of the side effects of making "obvious" changes to a selected feature. Just one example. Very popular to detest the downtime in the orignal EQ - regaining mana mainly, looking at a book! Yet it can be argued that this kind of downtime contributed greatly to the community, and in the long run, make the overall experience more fun. When people pop from one combat to another, do they ever interact enough to build a community? After the POK arrived many concluded that EQ took a serious turn for the worse. And that provided easy travel just about everywhere. Your mileage may vary, LOL.
I think this is a very good point. Any change will come with it's own set of bugs and side effects, some unforseen, some underestimated. It is never wise to make big changes without taking a long hard look at what you are doing. You allways run the risk of screwing something up without realising it.
As for downtime, there is a balance to be trodd between too long and too short. It's hard to nail down and might vary from game to game. I guess part of the key to it is knowing what you're going for and going trough several itterations untill it feel right; as well as listen critically to feedback from the players.
IMO, some timesinks are important. You can't just give things to players. It is about fun, but MMOs are more about accomplishments and growing. There is a balance that needs to be had, and its certainly easier said than done.
IMO, some timesinks are important. You can't just give things to players. It is about fun, but MMOs are more about accomplishments and growing. There is a balance that needs to be had, and its certainly easier said than done.
I tend to disagree, unless it's strictly an item-based game. In a game like Darkfall, where PVP is the 'centric feature', you have to grind for months and months in order to compete with the best of players on a 1 on 1 basis. However, in a game like Planetside, one could simply be skilled enough from day 1 to beat a 5 month old player in a 1 on 1 fight. and Planetside was nothing but fun.
IMO, some timesinks are important. You can't just give things to players. It is about fun, but MMOs are more about accomplishments and growing. There is a balance that needs to be had, and its certainly easier said than done.
I tend to disagree, unless it's strictly an item-based game. In a game like Darkfall, where PVP is the 'centric feature', you have to grind for months and months in order to compete with the best of players on a 1 on 1 basis. However, in a game like Planetside, one could simply be skilled enough from day 1 to beat a 5 month old player in a 1 on 1 fight. and Planetside was nothing but fun.
Not necessarily.
There are people who enjoy the process of developing and leveling that character... even in DF. They're not in a hurry to get to end-game and are enjoying the journey. There's a few people I know of from these forums alone who play that way in DF. And hasn't it been said and explained and examples given over and over again that you don't need to grind for months to become competitive or, at least, effective in DF? I could swear I've read post after post after post detailing that very thing. At some point, depending on the player, the line is blurred and being the more skilled player at PvP can and does win the fight. That "months and months" claim has already been disproven. I think it's time to let it go.
I personally never play a MMO with the sole intention of "getting to end-game". In fact, if anything, I'm usually trying to find ways to go thorugh ti as slowly as possible... I don't *want* to be rushed through the game.
Again... it goes back to what different individuals consider fun.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Leveling a character, developing skills, gathering resources, crafting items, raiding for items, are just a few of the things people associate with time sinks.
But, none of them have to be time sinks, they can be fun, they can be interesting, they can be worth the time invested in them.
The whole problem with a time sink is that it isn't fun, it isn't the amount of time you invest in it that matters, it is how much fun you had whilst investing that time.
People will spend countless hours doing something that is fun, because it is fun, you don't need to force people to spend more time playing a game if they are enjoying what they are doing.
Leveling a character, developing skills, gathering resources, crafting items, raiding for items, are just a few of the things people associate with time sinks.
But, none of them have to be time sinks, they can be fun, they can be interesting, they can be worth the time invested in them. The whole problem with a time sink is that it isn't fun, it isn't the amount of time you invest in it that matters, it is how much fun you had whilst investing that time.
People will spend countless hours doing something that is fun, because it is fun, you don't need to force people to spend more time playing a game if they are enjoying what they are doing.
Exactly... and then that's where it comes back to personal accountability - deciding whether there's enough you enjoy about the experience to keep playing, or whether a given game's time-sinks are just too much for you to enjoy it.
At that point, the most sane decision is to acknowledge "no, I'm not enjoying this game enough to continue playing" and then move on to another game.
Problem is... people will seldom ever accept something like that and instead project it as being a failing of the game and/or its developers. It's not that the player simply chose a game that isn't well-suited to them... no no... the *developers* are idiots who obviously don't know what they're doing and screwed it up, despite the fact that 10s or 100s of thousands of others enjoy it just fine.
I could never understand that mentality.... "I don't like it, therefor it's no good and no one else should like it either". Some go as far as wanting the game to die because they don't like it and feel, somehow, "betrayed" (some have even used that word) by the company for failing to cater to what they consider fun.
And then there's the ultimate conceit and/or self-delusion (take your pick)... "I think the game sucks, and anyone who enjoys it doesn't know what a good game is"... or variations on that. Gotta love that one.
I don't get it. I don't see people do this with other things in life. If I go to a restaurant and realize I don't like most of what's on their menu, I'm going to simply stop going to that restaurant and find one that better suits me. I'm not going to continue going there complaining about how the restaurant sucks and the cooks don't know what they're doing and need to change the menu because they fail to satisfy me, even though many others enjoy it perfectly fine.
I think some people's "despair" over a MMO would be easily "cured" by simply cancelling their sub and moving on to another if they aren't finding the current game fun for them.
But... seems many people these days love to be "the victim".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
There is a HUGE fine line between FUN and ridiculous/unrealistic ideas.The key phrase would be "common sense". common sense tells us that one player cannot have 5 bears gnaw at his flesh and come out unscathed killing all 5,then go right back to killing 50 more in a matter of 2 minutes. This is why people often argue/complain/discuss game mechanics or design,some people want common sense out of the game,some do not .This would be no different than trying to convince a teenager that you do not need alcohol to have fun,they are not going to listen.
This is ludicrous. I used to play a fun game where I was an intalian plumber in a magical mushroom kingdom stomping on giant turtles and eating giant mushrooms! I have never, in 20 years of gaming, played a single game that can be describes as realistic. Yet I have had a lot of fun. There is no such line as you seem to imagine, there is only suspense of disbelief and that goes a long way. This has nothing what so ever to do with common sense.
Sports as used in the Hockey example are fun,not only because they are fun to play,but it is the challenge that makes them fun,this is true in pretty much all matters of fun.I don't care if you are playing checkers,you want the other guy to try and beat you,you do not want an auto win,the FUN factor is lost.There is people that find it FUN going to the racetrack to bet on the ponies,the FUN is in the challenge,they like the challenge of trying to predict the winner against the odds.Two people playing Yahtzee,it is the same thing all over again,fun yet you like the challenge.
Then you can try to explain why people find playing roulette exciting then. There are games devoid of skill, pure luck, yet some enjoy them. The enjoyment of games can not be reduced to "challenge", it is part of the fun in most games, but it is not the full picture. There are other aspects that contribute. your notion is simply too reductionistic.
Now of course we will always hear of people who think FUN is just winning ,even if the other guy let you win,people using common sense soon realize it is just dumb and all fun is lost once the challenge is gone. Once you introduce dumb/unrealistic ideas in games,the FUN is lost,because those scenarios do not use common sense,no a hockey game should not be 20-20 after the first period,just because you think it would be fun to score 15 goals in a period.No a 100 lb female character should not be wielding a 200 lb steel sword like it is made of paper.No you should not die and respawn instantly like nothing ever happened,when common sense is not used,then of course you cannot see past the reasoning,of why it is not FUN.It is no different than a team mate asking me if it would be fun to take my adult hockey team and beat up on some 10 year old kids,NO it is not fun,it is as simple as common sense. Gaming is EXACTLY the same as sports,we play them both for fun,but it is the challenge that makes it fun.
"You should not die and respawn as if nothing happened." Excuse me, but did you read that before trying to apply your "common sense"? Because my common sense tells me you do not respawn, at all. Never. In a game however it doesn't matter and we can respawn, how ever we like, wield massive swords and generally have a good time. Because it's a game, we can make pretentend, it doesn't have to be "real". Or what ever fantasy you concider common sense. It only has to adhere to a very limited suspense of disbelief. Why do you insist on mixing in notions that make no sense? Fun is not the same as challenge, neither is realism. Since when was having a femal toon wield a big sword the equivalent of baeting up kids?! There is no "common sense" to is. It's allso poorly written, but I guess that comes as a bonus. I'm sorry to say so, but this post is nonsense. the only sensible bit is that challenge is part of what makes games fun, though you messed that up too. People like the strangest things, different folks different strokes.
These two posts made me laugh.
My question to Wizardry: Why is watching the hockey game fun? There is certainly no challenge in planting your butt into a sofa (usually ).
And to the article: I wonder if the author of this article, or most people for that matter, realize that the Silver/Gold medal for Hockey was basically just finishing the ritual of deciding who gets gold and silver?
If you look at the players, the Canadian team was mostly made up of American players.
Regardless, fun is subjective. Highly so. I've had plenty of fun traveling before because it gave me time to plan my next progression and make some headway in my battle against my inventory. A pretty game can be fun as well. Graphics detail and gameplay don't always have to have an inverse correlation.
The key to FUN is that developers of a game have to target and scope in the type of FUN they want in the game and the demographic that enjoys that FUN. All you can do is find out who is targetting your FUN and play those games. Not all games are meant for everyone and if you dont find it enjoyable, play a different game.
Comments
I think the responses here highlight what Richard was getting across, fun is a personal thing.
Though no one here has said they enjoy the timesinks.
If we look at challenge, this can be applied to a game in a number of ways, the main one in MMOs these days is that all the challenge comes from finding the time to do something, rather than the doing something. So you need to raid the same instance 40 times for a new weapon, the challenge is doing the raid 40 times, not actually anything within the raid itself.
I don't think there is a happy medium out there, I don't think you can make a game that is fun to everyone, so when you do try to make a game that appeals to everyone, you aim at the lowest common denominator and put in bits that are fun to each group of people, hoping that those bits are enough to keep people playing through the parts they don't like. That is what mass market is all about, and that is something that WoW does pretty well.
I would, for once, like to see someone try to make an MMO that didn't attempt to appeal to that lowest common denominator, but didn't also push itself right to the other extreme, like EVE or Darkfall do.
The writer makes another kind of mistake - a logical error - when he selects a particular feature, and what people would do if they had an alternative, and concluding that therefore that feature does not belong. Evaluating a game experience is not easy.
It's the whole experience that is fun or not --- just like in software programming --- be very careful of the side effects of making "obvious" changes to a selected feature.
Just one example. Very popular to detest the downtime in the orignal EQ - regaining mana mainly, looking at a book!
Yet it can be argued that this kind of downtime contributed greatly to the community, and in the long run, make the overall experience more fun. When people pop from one combat to another, do they ever interact enough to build a community?
After the POK arrived many concluded that EQ took a serious turn for the worse. And that provided easy travel just about everywhere.
Your mileage may vary, LOL.
---------------------------
Rose-lipped maidens,
Light-foot lads...
Well when we goto a hockey game,we have to pack our gear,drive the car to the arena,gear up,pre skate.The game does not come to us,but we do it because it is fun !.No matter what form of entertainment you do it is still fun and requitres some time/cost.People are just incredibly lazy.I think the truth of the matter is people do a lot of complaining,because the game or mechanics ar really NOT fun at all,to witch i have no idea why these players are in that game playing it.This is why players complain of downtime,they are in a hurry to rush through the boring game,they are in a hurry to gain levels,these players logoff thinking that gaining a level is their satisfaction or accomplishment.Well anyone that plays a game just to gain levels,is playing for the wrong reasons ,so they will never be happy,if the game they are playing is fun,they do not care about anything else,except maybe the players or community.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I think this is a very good point. Any change will come with it's own set of bugs and side effects, some unforseen, some underestimated. It is never wise to make big changes without taking a long hard look at what you are doing. You allways run the risk of screwing something up without realising it.
As for downtime, there is a balance to be trodd between too long and too short. It's hard to nail down and might vary from game to game. I guess part of the key to it is knowing what you're going for and going trough several itterations untill it feel right; as well as listen critically to feedback from the players.
IMO, some timesinks are important. You can't just give things to players. It is about fun, but MMOs are more about accomplishments and growing. There is a balance that needs to be had, and its certainly easier said than done.
I tend to disagree, unless it's strictly an item-based game. In a game like Darkfall, where PVP is the 'centric feature', you have to grind for months and months in order to compete with the best of players on a 1 on 1 basis. However, in a game like Planetside, one could simply be skilled enough from day 1 to beat a 5 month old player in a 1 on 1 fight. and Planetside was nothing but fun.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I tend to disagree, unless it's strictly an item-based game. In a game like Darkfall, where PVP is the 'centric feature', you have to grind for months and months in order to compete with the best of players on a 1 on 1 basis. However, in a game like Planetside, one could simply be skilled enough from day 1 to beat a 5 month old player in a 1 on 1 fight. and Planetside was nothing but fun.
Not necessarily.
There are people who enjoy the process of developing and leveling that character... even in DF. They're not in a hurry to get to end-game and are enjoying the journey. There's a few people I know of from these forums alone who play that way in DF. And hasn't it been said and explained and examples given over and over again that you don't need to grind for months to become competitive or, at least, effective in DF? I could swear I've read post after post after post detailing that very thing. At some point, depending on the player, the line is blurred and being the more skilled player at PvP can and does win the fight. That "months and months" claim has already been disproven. I think it's time to let it go.
I personally never play a MMO with the sole intention of "getting to end-game". In fact, if anything, I'm usually trying to find ways to go thorugh ti as slowly as possible... I don't *want* to be rushed through the game.
Again... it goes back to what different individuals consider fun.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Leveling a character, developing skills, gathering resources, crafting items, raiding for items, are just a few of the things people associate with time sinks.
But, none of them have to be time sinks, they can be fun, they can be interesting, they can be worth the time invested in them.
The whole problem with a time sink is that it isn't fun, it isn't the amount of time you invest in it that matters, it is how much fun you had whilst investing that time.
People will spend countless hours doing something that is fun, because it is fun, you don't need to force people to spend more time playing a game if they are enjoying what they are doing.
Exactly... and then that's where it comes back to personal accountability - deciding whether there's enough you enjoy about the experience to keep playing, or whether a given game's time-sinks are just too much for you to enjoy it.
At that point, the most sane decision is to acknowledge "no, I'm not enjoying this game enough to continue playing" and then move on to another game.
Problem is... people will seldom ever accept something like that and instead project it as being a failing of the game and/or its developers. It's not that the player simply chose a game that isn't well-suited to them... no no... the *developers* are idiots who obviously don't know what they're doing and screwed it up, despite the fact that 10s or 100s of thousands of others enjoy it just fine.
I could never understand that mentality.... "I don't like it, therefor it's no good and no one else should like it either". Some go as far as wanting the game to die because they don't like it and feel, somehow, "betrayed" (some have even used that word) by the company for failing to cater to what they consider fun.
And then there's the ultimate conceit and/or self-delusion (take your pick)... "I think the game sucks, and anyone who enjoys it doesn't know what a good game is"... or variations on that. Gotta love that one.
I don't get it. I don't see people do this with other things in life. If I go to a restaurant and realize I don't like most of what's on their menu, I'm going to simply stop going to that restaurant and find one that better suits me. I'm not going to continue going there complaining about how the restaurant sucks and the cooks don't know what they're doing and need to change the menu because they fail to satisfy me, even though many others enjoy it perfectly fine.
I think some people's "despair" over a MMO would be easily "cured" by simply cancelling their sub and moving on to another if they aren't finding the current game fun for them.
But... seems many people these days love to be "the victim".
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
These two posts made me laugh.
My question to Wizardry: Why is watching the hockey game fun? There is certainly no challenge in planting your butt into a sofa (usually
).
And to the article: I wonder if the author of this article, or most people for that matter, realize that the Silver/Gold medal for Hockey was basically just finishing the ritual of deciding who gets gold and silver?
If you look at the players, the Canadian team was mostly made up of American players.
Regardless, fun is subjective. Highly so. I've had plenty of fun traveling before because it gave me time to plan my next progression and make some headway in my battle against my inventory. A pretty game can be fun as well. Graphics detail and gameplay don't always have to have an inverse correlation.
The key to FUN is that developers of a game have to target and scope in the type of FUN they want in the game and the demographic that enjoys that FUN. All you can do is find out who is targetting your FUN and play those games. Not all games are meant for everyone and if you dont find it enjoyable, play a different game.