This isn't how I thought this thread was going to go. Am I the only person who would like to see a FFA full loot PVP game where the way to advance your character is killing other players and not through endless PVE grinding? I mean, its ok if a game has PVE for those who enjoy skilling up this way (I do actually) but it would be nice to be able to earn as much or more killing other players. Trick is, how do you balance it so it isn't huge gankfest on the lesser skilled player. I've got some ideas on that but they are way outside what current game design is.
I agree with this, I would much rather be able to advance with PvP. That way i can get used to fighting players who play different then any AI.
Why cant we just get rid of skill progression and let everyone start off with an equal opportunity to assign skill points? Then you play the game to pvp or craft or explore instead of play the game to 'progress'. The obvious answer is time sink. AV wants to force you to spend months progressing so you have to pay them more. Otherwise you might just play a month and quit.
Even EVE's system of passive progression at least removes the need to grind and macro. You either login and play as you are, or you skill offline and come back when your training is done.
Why cant we just get rid of skill progression and let everyone start off with an equal opportunity to assign skill points? Then you play the game to pvp or craft or explore instead of play the game to 'progress'. The obvious answer is time sink. AV wants to force you to spend months progressing so you have to pay them more. Otherwise you might just play a month and quit. Even EVE's system of passive progression at least removes the need to grind and macro. You either login and play as you are, or you skill offline and come back when your training is done.
Because it's an MMORPG.
By it's very nature, an MMORPG features progression and character advancement. It has nothing to do with "timesink" or other tin-foil hat theories. It's simply the nature of the beast.
Passive progression simply makes NO sense. As a RL example, if I don't practice my forms and techniques(in martial arts), they don't improve. I can't just sit here THINKING about "snuffing the candle" and have the technique improve....I have to spar, and practice on the bag, etc.
We improve by DOING. And as I've said before, those who macro in Darkfall typically fail VS those who do not, because they havn't actually spent that time PLAYING, and using the skills.....so when it comes time to do so in combat, they are far less effective than those with the actual player experience. By actually using your skills in combat (PVE or PVP), you get used to leading, the effect of gravity, the reach of your weapon, etc.
Why cant we just get rid of skill progression and let everyone start off with an equal opportunity to assign skill points? Then you play the game to pvp or craft or explore instead of play the game to 'progress'. The obvious answer is time sink. AV wants to force you to spend months progressing so you have to pay them more. Otherwise you might just play a month and quit. Even EVE's system of passive progression at least removes the need to grind and macro. You either login and play as you are, or you skill offline and come back when your training is done.
Because it's an MMORPG.
By it's very nature, an MMORPG features progression and character advancement. It has nothing to do with "timesink" or other tin-foil hat theories. It's simply the nature of the beast.
Passive progression simply makes NO sense. As a RL example, if I don't practice my forms and techniques(in martial arts), they don't improve. I can't just sit here THINKING about "snuffing the candle" and have the technique improve....I have to spar, and practice on the bag, etc.
We improve by DOING. And as I've said before, those who macro in Darkfall typically fail VS those who do not, because they havn't actually spent that time PLAYING, and using the skills.....so when it comes time to do so in combat, they are far less effective than those with the actual player experience. By actually using your skills in combat (PVE or PVP), you get used to leading, the effect of gravity, the reach of your weapon, etc.
YOU progress, along with your character.
Convince me that an MMORPG "by its very nature" features progression, and why it must be in the form of doing repetitive actions.
Because it's an MMORPG. By it's very nature, an MMORPG features progression and character advancement. It has nothing to do with "timesink" or other tin-foil hat theories. It's simply the nature of the beast. Passive progression simply makes NO sense. As a RL example, if I don't practice my forms and techniques(in martial arts), they don't improve. I can't just sit here THINKING about "snuffing the candle" and have the technique improve....I have to spar, and practice on the bag, etc. We improve by DOING. And as I've said before, those who macro in Darkfall typically fail VS those who do not, because they havn't actually spent that time PLAYING, and using the skills.....so when it comes time to do so in combat, they are far less effective than those with the actual player experience. By actually using your skills in combat (PVE or PVP), you get used to leading, the effect of gravity, the reach of your weapon, etc. YOU progress, along with your character.
Convince me that an MMORPG "by its very nature" features progression, and why it must be in the form of doing repetitive actions.
Hm. Not a lot of MMORPGs I can think of that don't have character progression, man. Usually in the form of levels, stat points, specialisations, and perks.
I think that part of what defines a game as an RPG to begin with is the ability to advance your character. This has been true since the days of PnP D&D.
Even games of other genres which allow for character development are said to have "RPG elements". It's a widely accepted concept.
Now, as opposed to levels, what we see in DF is called a "skill based" system.....where the more you use a skill, the better it gets. Other games have used this system, and IMO it is one of the best systems available. The only thing I would really add to Darkfall's system is skill decay....where not using a skill for an amount of time caused the skill's level to decrease.
It mirrors real life to a great degree, as I illustrated above.
The problem of course is with people who are used to playing level-based games where they tend to race to max level. This is really not possible in a skill based system, and tends to leave them feeling displaced, and whining about "grind".
Comments
I agree with this, I would much rather be able to advance with PvP. That way i can get used to fighting players who play different then any AI.
Why cant we just get rid of skill progression and let everyone start off with an equal opportunity to assign skill points? Then you play the game to pvp or craft or explore instead of play the game to 'progress'. The obvious answer is time sink. AV wants to force you to spend months progressing so you have to pay them more. Otherwise you might just play a month and quit.
Even EVE's system of passive progression at least removes the need to grind and macro. You either login and play as you are, or you skill offline and come back when your training is done.
Because it's an MMORPG.
By it's very nature, an MMORPG features progression and character advancement. It has nothing to do with "timesink" or other tin-foil hat theories. It's simply the nature of the beast.
Passive progression simply makes NO sense. As a RL example, if I don't practice my forms and techniques(in martial arts), they don't improve. I can't just sit here THINKING about "snuffing the candle" and have the technique improve....I have to spar, and practice on the bag, etc.
We improve by DOING. And as I've said before, those who macro in Darkfall typically fail VS those who do not, because they havn't actually spent that time PLAYING, and using the skills.....so when it comes time to do so in combat, they are far less effective than those with the actual player experience. By actually using your skills in combat (PVE or PVP), you get used to leading, the effect of gravity, the reach of your weapon, etc.
YOU progress, along with your character.
Duel your clan mates. Organise tourneys. Have PVP scrimmages against other clans in your alliance.
This is how Cairn, on NA1 managed to win three sieges against overwealming odds this weekend. We practice...a lot.
Edit: I can't spell.
Because it's an MMORPG.
By it's very nature, an MMORPG features progression and character advancement. It has nothing to do with "timesink" or other tin-foil hat theories. It's simply the nature of the beast.
Passive progression simply makes NO sense. As a RL example, if I don't practice my forms and techniques(in martial arts), they don't improve. I can't just sit here THINKING about "snuffing the candle" and have the technique improve....I have to spar, and practice on the bag, etc.
We improve by DOING. And as I've said before, those who macro in Darkfall typically fail VS those who do not, because they havn't actually spent that time PLAYING, and using the skills.....so when it comes time to do so in combat, they are far less effective than those with the actual player experience. By actually using your skills in combat (PVE or PVP), you get used to leading, the effect of gravity, the reach of your weapon, etc.
YOU progress, along with your character.
Convince me that an MMORPG "by its very nature" features progression, and why it must be in the form of doing repetitive actions.
Convince me that an MMORPG "by its very nature" features progression, and why it must be in the form of doing repetitive actions.
Hm. Not a lot of MMORPGs I can think of that don't have character progression, man. Usually in the form of levels, stat points, specialisations, and perks.
I think that part of what defines a game as an RPG to begin with is the ability to advance your character. This has been true since the days of PnP D&D.
Even games of other genres which allow for character development are said to have "RPG elements". It's a widely accepted concept.
Now, as opposed to levels, what we see in DF is called a "skill based" system.....where the more you use a skill, the better it gets. Other games have used this system, and IMO it is one of the best systems available. The only thing I would really add to Darkfall's system is skill decay....where not using a skill for an amount of time caused the skill's level to decrease.
It mirrors real life to a great degree, as I illustrated above.
The problem of course is with people who are used to playing level-based games where they tend to race to max level. This is really not possible in a skill based system, and tends to leave them feeling displaced, and whining about "grind".