General: Webb: When Beats Go Wrong

Robsolf

Originally posted by ghstwolf

Originally posted by sacredfool


ghstwolf, i would totally disagree. A lot can be done. For example, a simple escort quest, can be changed so that the person you escort does actually die.  Yes, you fail, but the consequences of the death set you onto a new quest. Obviously, would not be as surprising if you are doing the quest for the 10th alt, but it would create the "all is lost" feeling.

I cannot deny that it is a possibility, however I haven't seen it.  That isn't the reason I don't consider it a realistic possibility though.

IMO the main reason is that to have a true failure, you need a second quest line.  That means writing 2 story lines (one for success, one for failure) each featuring separate quests and rewards (even if we ignore how similar they will likely turn out).  That's 2x the work to yield fewer playable quests, and let us remember most players will hate it because the rewards are different.  Pretty quickly, CS will be inundated with reset this quest requests (complete with BS reasons that it should be), and the whole experience will be deemed a waste of resources or a reason to /ragequit.  It will then go back to what we have today.

 

QFT.

This is why most quests of this nature tend to be linear, and usually set you up to fail.  That is, you make it so far, you complete the objectives, then something out of your control causes your mission to fail, leading you to the next quest.  This is what LotRO does, and I bet they even get CS calls complaining that a mission is too hard and that X character got captured no matter what they did... :P

I wonder how many people sent in reports for the Durins Bane encounter...

TsukieU

Originally posted by UnDfind


You've identified one of the major problems I have with the current, quest-happy MMO models. If there is a story, it is usually interrupted by countless task-driven sub quests that serve to cheapen the overall experience.
There are some games who have used modern cinematic models, though. If you've ever completed a Final Fantasy XI expansion, you feel as though you've just watched all 3 (real) Star Wars movies for the first time. Every mission line matches the Hollywood Hero With a Thousand Faces model perfectly.
The problem I have with awesome quest story, though, is that it is usually not player-centric. In order to have dramatic tension and real emotional investment, NPCs are used as surrogates, and players help them out along the way. While a player's avatar may be the impetus behind the success of the actions (slaying the dragon, obtaining the sword, etc.), the plot's main character is the real hero.
I love games that provide a story, and everyone loves cinematic elements, but it is the game that makes a player feel that his/her character has saved the day that will have my vote, regardless of story. The trick is having story and making player characters a central element of it.

 

This is actually a cultural difference, it's not by accident.

 

Americans tend to have an overall, 'ME' sense.  Whereas, they are the lone renegade hero that only they can save the universe from unspeakable horrors.  This is seen in all sorts of American games and cinema and is ingrained into people from a young age that 'you are special and unique snowflake' etc.

 

In Japan though, being an individual, while isn't seen as necessarily horrible...it's seen as much better to be a cog in a great machine.  Where the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.  This is witnessed by their games, cinema etc. as well.

Arglebargle

Story telling can have different levels of power.  Like in food, some things are popcorn, tasty, but not filling, and are not the same as a real hearty meal.   This shows up in movies fairly obviously.  Some movies are competantly made, but ephemeral.  Others definitely stick to the ribs.   The structure, while an important consideration, doesn't mean it will be good.   Avatar as an example, had the structure down, but was really not that well written. (And Cameron can write well).   And all the over analysis of Serenity misses the fact, that Book's actor had other commitments, so he was conveniantly killed off in a non dramatic moment.   Wash's death was dramatic, a reminder of how dangerous their situation was, and also reinforced the point that no one was safe due to standard ol' tropes. 

I think the structure would help some MMOs, to give something a bit more meaning than the thoughtless 'Kill Rats' or 'Step and Fetchit' quests.  But the mediums are different, and not all aspects that work in one will work in another.   Some things that do well in a confined two hour film are not as useful in a long ongoing MMO.  If you are looking for similarities there, you should be checking out the serial, or the TV show series as guides.  

However the  basic idea of the original discussion based on the Syd Fields type of strictures misses the point for to me.  These sorts of structures are very good for beginners, but once you have assimilated the rules, and learned your craft, you can break every one of them.   The sad thing is, that while many people who work on MMOs think they are good writers, far fewer of them probably qualify. 

Which, I guess, means they probably should be using those strictures.... 

 

 

Hhussk

I thought your article was really good. As a writer, I'm interested in picking up "Save the Cat". Thanks for that info.

On the subject of MMOs, I was thinking LoTR Online might have some beat driven quests. I tried a trial of that game and the intro seemed cinematic. 

astoria

Nice article. I read the Joseph Campbell so long ago and I had not too much applied that structure to movies or games. One very interesting movie that I am sure owes some of its writing to this study of screenwriting is 'Ink.' It is on instant watch on a popular online rental place (not sure if it is against the rules to plug here).  Without spoiling it by being too specific, it has a scene that applies a chaos theory religious alice-in-wtf-land treatment of all the subplots of the movie.