I cant believe that anyone that takes an honest look at the mmorpg market and availability cant find a game that suits their interest. The larger, more well known development studios and publishing houses have shown to be in it for a short-term buck as evident by lack luster releases over the past couple years.
But outside of their circle, the independent studios have done a very good job at providing diversity. I believe that most people can find a game in the sea of mmorpg's that they find appealing.
I just wanted to share my opinion on the state of gaming, to see if there were many out there that agreed. So /rant on I have been playing mmorpg's for 10 years., although I really didn't get sucked into one until Star Wars Galaxies came out. I played that game religiously for 2 1/2 years right up until, (yup, you guessed it), the NGE. Before you roll your eyes and curse the rantings of another disgruntled SWG vet, don't worry. I'm not going to rant about what SOE did to that game. Everyone knows what happened, and it's been talked to death repeatedly. Anyway, after the travesty of SWG, I tried a couple other mmo's before settling into WoW when it launched in 2004. I like many others rather enjoyed it for the first year or so. Once it took off in popularity + the launching of Burning Crusade, was in my opinion, when the game started to fall hard. By fall I mean, they nerfed away all the skill in the game, and replaced it with carebear fun time happiness. The game became much less about skill, and much more about gear and numbers. I used to say a few years ago that WoW's success was both a blessing and a curse to the mmo world. A blessing due to it finally bringing mmo gaming to the forefront, while being a curse at the same time due to the slew of relative crap games we've seen as a result. Now I disagree with the first part of my statement. I think WoW has grown to be a curse on the mmo gaming industry. What are we left with? Take a look at the games that have come out since late 2005 and on. It is nothing but a sea of WoW clones. I've always asked myself, who in their right mind would play a WoW clone? If I'm faced with the choice of playing WoW or a crappy WoW knockoff, I'll stick with WoW itself. Take a look at all the "big" games that have come out the last few years. 99% of them have bombed for one reason or another. Age of Conan, Warhammer, EQ2, STO, and the list goes on. With games like AoC, I have no idea how you can screw something like that up in the first place. If any of you have ever read any of Howard's Conan stories, you know they had such a rich and vibrant world in which to draw material from. Instead we got a clunky, unfinished, linear, piece of junk. STO is another one that sticks out in my mind. We have one of the biggest sci-fi franchises in history. 11 movies, five tv series' each multiple seasons, and countless books/comics. There is soooooo much they could have pulled from the Star Trek universe that could have made STO one of the most successful mmo's to date. Instead, we get a reskinned Champions Online with space ships. Great job Cryptic. I could complain all day about games, but I digress. What is wrong with these companies? They continue to churn out clone after clone, despite the fact that the majority of these clones never make any money. Few re-tool their games over time to better suit WoW lovers, (EQ2 comes to mind), and manage to stick around with a meager subscription base. The sci-fi genre has been left virtually untouched. At first there was SWG and EVE, and we all know how Galaxies went. EVE was ok at first, but as I have always joked, you need a calculus degree to play EVE, where is EVE JR. ? Now it seems we have several EVE clones in the works. Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution, etc. What I 'd like to see, is a game as expansive as EVE, where you can actually get out of your ship and do stuff. Get into a bar brawl, and blast your way back to your ship. You know, a truly epic sci fi game. The one big game I haven't mentioned yet is Star Wars: The Old Republic. Now, before I get into that, let me preface it by saying, I am a Star Wars junkie, and a Bioware fanboy. I firmly believe Bioware craps gold. In saying that, why does TOR look so bad? I had such high hopes for that game when they finally announced it, but the more I read on it, the more I think it's going to be a great big steaming pile of sith. Granted, no one has played it yet, so I just have to wait and see, but I'm not holding my breath anymore. So what is left in a sea of WoW clones? Games that developers rush out before they are done, and use subscription fees to finish, (*cough* *cough* SOE)? Games that companies rush out half finished, collect an initial surge of money, and let the game rot? Where are all the unique games? When is someone going to break from the mold and make a good game that isn't just another carbon copy? As I look down the list of upcoming games, I'm not very hopeful. Anyway, /rant off I guess. Kudos to those that actually read through my wall of text opinion. Please let me know your thoughts, (in a constructive manner please), whether you feel I'm right or wrong. I always welcome a healthy debate.
So you're saying just because a game has the interface of WoW it's a clone? AoC is nothing like WoW and it's coming back with a vengeance. I will admit WAR is toast. Not because its a so-called "WoW Clone" but because the PvP is bland and alot of levels you feel so alone it's not even funny. And technically WoW is an "EQ Clone" and EQ would be an "Ultima Clone" and Ultima would be similar to some MUD. I just fucking hate when ignorant people start assuming games are WoW Clones.
So here is the first non creative response. Granted, WoW is just another fantasy game, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it an EQ clone. Just because a game shares a genre with another, does not make it a clone. Wow thought outside the box, and did things differently, albeit slightly. And what happened? Blizzard dominates the industry from 2005 to present.
If you think I am ignorant for my opinions, you are obviously free to say so. However, do so in a constructive manner, instead of coming in here and sounding like an angry 12 year old. Most people in here so far have agreed with me. I would love to hear a side from someone who doesn't.
So if you respond again, please be constructive about it. Nowhere in my post did I say any game that had a similar GUI was a WoW clone. There are numerous other factors, gameplay, mechanics, classes, etc.
People can always find something to say that something else copied off of it. Perfect example, I don't know how many posts/reviews/etc I've read where people say Fallen Earth is a Fallout ripoff. What about Mad Max? I remember seeing one of the main screenies before Fallout 3 came out. The one they kept hyping around everywhere with the guy walking down the street with his dog. That's practically the cover of The Road Warrior, but I haven't seen one person mention this.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
To all buffoons who say wow was a clone of anything... it's warcraft fools! No other mmo has had a better franchise at its disposal and besides all the other obvious reasons this is why previous and present mmo's remain uninteresting. Especially for those of us who already loved warcraft, being able to immerse in the warcraft world was all we needed to start paying monthly. Before that who cares about mmo's. I don't care how cool you think you are because you did everquest and final fantasy, star wars, bla. Most mmo gamers now don't care because until wow we weren't given a good enough reason to join you. Did I say we don't care?
Originally posted by Charisi The sci-fi genre has been left virtually untouched. At first there was SWG and EVE, and we all know how Galaxies went. EVE was ok at first, but as I have always joked, you need a calculus degree to play EVE, where is EVE JR. ? Now it seems we have several EVE clones in the works. Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution, etc. What I 'd like to see, is a game as expansive as EVE, where you can actually get out of your ship and do stuff. Get into a bar brawl, and blast your way back to your ship. You know, a truly epic sci fi game.
You'll get your wish in about 9 months if all goes well. That's when the Incarna expansion should (I hope) be launching, and we can finally get out of our pods.
And games that are trying to go outside the box will get igorned or bashed as never before here at mmorp.com... sometimes I wonder if there is only former wow-junkies (like myself ) at this forum
Originally posted by Charisi The sci-fi genre has been left virtually untouched. At first there was SWG and EVE, and we all know how Galaxies went. EVE was ok at first, but as I have always joked, you need a calculus degree to play EVE, where is EVE JR. ? Now it seems we have several EVE clones in the works. Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution, etc. What I 'd like to see, is a game as expansive as EVE, where you can actually get out of your ship and do stuff. Get into a bar brawl, and blast your way back to your ship. You know, a truly epic sci fi game.
You'll get your wish in about 9 months if all goes well. That's when the Incarna expansion should (I hope) be launching, and we can finally get out of our pods.
im not sure incarna or whatever it will be called, will offer a FPS experience, for that im guessing you'll have to rely on dust514, but it will probably inject a certain amount of 'immersion' into the game - particular for those who have complained about their innability to see their own feet .... what Incarna will bring to the game player wise, will i think mostly be 'cosmetic' i could be wrong on that, wait and see i guess because with CCP, its never a good idea to underestimate just what their capable of pulling off... Eve is the only game i see myself still playing in 10 years time
So you're saying just because a game has the interface of WoW it's a clone? AoC is nothing like WoW and it's coming back with a vengeance. I will admit WAR is toast. Not because its a so-called "WoW Clone" but because the PvP is bland and alot of levels you feel so alone it's not even funny. And technically WoW is an "EQ Clone" and EQ would be an "Ultima Clone" and Ultima would be similar to some MUD. I just fucking hate when ignorant people start assuming games are WoW Clones.
So here is the first non creative response. Granted, WoW is just another fantasy game, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it an EQ clone. Just because a game shares a genre with another, does not make it a clone. Wow thought outside the box, and did things differently, albeit slightly. And what happened? Blizzard dominates the industry from 2005 to present.
If you think I am ignorant for my opinions, you are obviously free to say so. However, do so in a constructive manner, instead of coming in here and sounding like an angry 12 year old. Most people in here so far have agreed with me. I would love to hear a side from someone who doesn't.
So if you respond again, please be constructive about it. Nowhere in my post did I say any game that had a similar GUI was a WoW clone. There are numerous other factors, gameplay, mechanics, classes, etc.
People can always find something to say that something else copied off of it. Perfect example, I don't know how many posts/reviews/etc I've read where people say Fallen Earth is a Fallout ripoff. What about Mad Max? I remember seeing one of the main screenies before Fallout 3 came out. The one they kept hyping around everywhere with the guy walking down the street with his dog. That's practically the cover of The Road Warrior, but I haven't seen one person mention this.
it's all yes and no.
don't forget that diablo (II) already was pretty close to WoW in the sense of gear and skill points. And Diablo vs EQ are timely about the same, so who is the clone of who?
Regarding the OPs definition of Wow-clone, one should take that with a grain of salt for the sake of discussion. It's maybe not the "interface" or whatever per se, but the fact that Blizzard had succes with this type of game (clone of whatever else if you will) and others want to copy the style to go the easy path to get a chunk of the market.
On the other hand, there are some good "clones" out there - LOTRO for one can be considered as one, some don't think so, some do (there are a lot of disputes out there), let's just say it is - then it is a pretty good one. Maybe not the IP as many fans wanted, but it definetly is better made than AoC or STO or perhaps even Warhammer.
F2P like to make clones of wow-eq-whatever - why? Because they can get the market of people who can't afford a monthly fee but actually want to play something like WoW.
What the heck, this has been discussed to kingdom come, noone here will ever agree with everyone.
you are all freaking crazy the best mmo's of the decade have been released in the last 3 months blaw all the above must be old people
and those games are????
(esp. in terms of masses. I wouldn't call DF or FE a huge success, even if they may be more in the lines of what the OP means as "non-wow-clones)
Just pointing out, for example, that DF and FE (their dev team, publishing, community responsiveness and support) have demonstrated to me to be more successful than STO backed by Cryptic/Atari, for example. So that's comparing 2 independent studios to a supposed AAA studio, as one example.
you are all freaking crazy the best mmo's of the decade have been released in the last 3 months blaw all the above must be old people
and those games are????
(esp. in terms of masses. I wouldn't call DF or FE a huge success, even if they may be more in the lines of what the OP means as "non-wow-clones)
Just pointing out, for example, that DF and FE (their dev team, publishing, community responsiveness and support) have demonstrated to me to be more successful than STO backed by Cryptic/Atari, for example. So that's comparing 2 independent studios to a supposed AAA studio, as one example.
Spin won't pay Icarus or Aventurine's bills....nice try though...
you are all freaking crazy the best mmo's of the decade have been released in the last 3 months blaw all the above must be old people
and those games are????
(esp. in terms of masses. I wouldn't call DF or FE a huge success, even if they may be more in the lines of what the OP means as "non-wow-clones)
Just pointing out, for example, that DF and FE (their dev team, publishing, community responsiveness and support) have demonstrated to me to be more successful than STO backed by Cryptic/Atari, for example. So that's comparing 2 independent studios to a supposed AAA studio, as one example.
Spin won't pay Icarus or Aventurine's bills....nice try though...
I think one problem for mmos is that for most developers its considered a whole different sort of platform really. Kinda like trying to make a game on a mac. So it is only done by a few select big developers and then the others that only do mmos. Blizzard afterall was a big developer and then they decided to make an mmo, just like with Final Fantasy, and no Bioware.
I just think for the mmo industry to move forward we need more of the big teams that work on the single player games that normally just have multiplayer support and get more of them to create worlds that the mmo genra is in need of. Right now I just feel that the mmo industry is in need to an influx of tallent and teams that try and be more creative. That and enough funding to really get things going.
Over the past few years as people have stated some small indie companies have developed mmos. These games though while trying to innovate are held back by poor implementation, and lack of skills to get products that really compete. Time to break open the walls that seperate the mmo devs and those that make everything else and infuse new blood into the world, or else the future mmos will all begin to turn into imbreads due to all of the incest that they have been doing over the years.
Darkfall. Fallen Earth. Mortal Online. Xsyon. These are games that break the mold you speak of.
And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?
Or did it perhaps occur to you that the people posting in this thread might not want mass appeal to their game?
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Originally posted by Charisi The sci-fi genre has been left virtually untouched. At first there was SWG and EVE, and we all know how Galaxies went. EVE was ok at first, but as I have always joked, you need a calculus degree to play EVE, where is EVE JR. ? Now it seems we have several EVE clones in the works. Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution, etc. What I 'd like to see, is a game as expansive as EVE, where you can actually get out of your ship and do stuff. Get into a bar brawl, and blast your way back to your ship. You know, a truly epic sci fi game.
You'll get your wish in about 9 months if all goes well. That's when the Incarna expansion should (I hope) be launching, and we can finally get out of our pods.
Now see, that looks awesome. I would love to give EvE another go if I could just get out of my ship lol. I'll have to follow that. Thanks for the heads up.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
Completely agree with the OP. I think that the biggest problem facing this genre and gaming in particular is that it's all about money now. Look at some of the games from 10 or 20 years ago. There is a reason why people still play them. You can literally feel the heart and soul that the developers have poured into these games (you can still feel that in a lot of indie games btw). Now, it's all about money. Oh, I'm sure that a lot of developers do care about their projects but now it's all about milking the gamers for as much money as possible, in the shortest time possible. It's not about, what can we do to make this game the most unforgettable experience ever? It's about what can we do to get as many people as possible to buy this game? Followed shortly by: hey, WoW makes a crap load of money, let's do what Blizzard did... Then we get, yet another, soulless WoW clone. I too share your feelings for TOR and Star Wars. I love the setting and based on what I've read, Bioware's mission is to create as standard an MMO as possible. Bioware doesn't want to revolutionize the genre, although if anyone, they are the most capable to do so. No, they want to release the same type of MMO which we have been playing for 10 years now. I'm sure that the game will have amazing stories, Bioware is great for that, but it will probably play just like WoW and EQ2.
Exactly. You touch on a point that I didn't really expand on. All the developers care about is money these days. Granted, the goal of any company is to make money, but I think that at the same time, they should be making products people like. Otherwise we end up with companies like SOE that clearly do not give two craps about their customers or their games. It's all about the almighty dollar.
One of the fallacies with the join the World of Warcraft parade was being to late. Granted WOW has a market audience though mainly Asian its market is huge for an American game developer ie Blizzard. Though successful there are millions of players that have quit and will never return. Of course money is an objective but the blind faith that they can make a WOW clone and do it better killed the cat. Sid Meier spoke at the game developers conference talked about the new market in reference to social gaming ie Facebook and it's 90 MILLION subscribers to a silly flash game called Farmville etc, etc. Sure it's free but it has near 10 times as many players as even WOW does lol.. He spoke on the psychological factor of games as well. I pass by the games section in computer stores very often. I pick up a new game and say to myself, " I have 10 of that type game already", put it down and leave spending no money. That's what alot of old school players do. I would gladly pay 30 bucks a month for a subscription game online that actually offered a fun gaming experience. Until they i'll play the cheap and easy unchallenging games on FB.
Completely agree with the OP. I think that the biggest problem facing this genre and gaming in particular is that it's all about money now. Look at some of the games from 10 or 20 years ago. There is a reason why people still play them. You can literally feel the heart and soul that the developers have poured into these games (you can still feel that in a lot of indie games btw). Now, it's all about money. Oh, I'm sure that a lot of developers do care about their projects but now it's all about milking the gamers for as much money as possible, in the shortest time possible. It's not about, what can we do to make this game the most unforgettable experience ever? It's about what can we do to get as many people as possible to buy this game? Followed shortly by: hey, WoW makes a crap load of money, let's do what Blizzard did... Then we get, yet another, soulless WoW clone. I too share your feelings for TOR and Star Wars. I love the setting and based on what I've read, Bioware's mission is to create as standard an MMO as possible. Bioware doesn't want to revolutionize the genre, although if anyone, they are the most capable to do so. No, they want to release the same type of MMO which we have been playing for 10 years now. I'm sure that the game will have amazing stories, Bioware is great for that, but it will probably play just like WoW and EQ2.
Exactly. You touch on a point that I didn't really expand on. All the developers care about is money these days. Granted, the goal of any company is to make money, but I think that at the same time, they should be making products people like. Otherwise we end up with companies like SOE that clearly do not give two craps about their customers or their games. It's all about the almighty dollar.
One of the fallacies with the join the World of Warcraft parade was being to late. Granted WOW has a market audience though mainly Asian its market is huge for an American game developer ie Blizzard. Though successful there are millions of players that have quit and will never return. Of course money is an objective but the blind faith that they can make a WOW clone and do it better killed the cat. Sid Meier spoke at the game developers conference talked about the new market in reference to social gaming ie Facebook and it's 90 MILLION subscribers to a silly flash game called Farmville etc, etc. Sure it's free but it has near 10 times as many players as even WOW does lol.. He spoke on the psychological factor of games as well. I pass by the games section in computer stores very often. I pick up a new game and say to myself, " I have 10 of that type game already", put it down and leave spending no money. That's what alot of old school players do. I would gladly pay 30 bucks a month for a subscription game online that actually offered a fun gaming experience. Until they i'll play the cheap and easy unchallenging games on FB.
You might as well compare Hearts and Freecell to WOW while you're at it=) Social gaming...hehe. Clicking a few buttons for a minute or two is NOT a game. If millions want to keep playing them, they can have them. Have fun wasting your life away=)
To a large the OP is right, but he still exaggerates in many ways. Not all games are WoW clones, there are unique games out there. But if you keep playing WoW, you send the companies the wrong message. And about WoW beeing too easy:
It's an MMORPG, it aims for the masses. The masses don't want difficult games, because they dislike failing. They want to be superheroes and smash through the enemies. That's why MMORPGs at large are easy. And I guess in WoW there are still the hardmode achievements, of which not all are that easy to get. If you want difficult games, don't play MMORPGs.
yes they want to be superhero but,how they can feel like suppahero,without challenges and doing super things??
it is that reward ,give "epics" to everyone and everyone feels like suppahero.
Well that is the conflict. To generalize it: each player wants to be able to kill everything, have the best equipment and be the champ of the virtual world. Also, each players wants to be different, and better than the others. And both doesn't go well together.
Now, if the companies would create a game with very difficult to beat content, than the tiny percentage of players would feel like heroes (they have beaten everything) and better than the others (who haven't achieved the same). Most players however would feel bad, because there is content they have no chance of beating, and they look the same as most others, who can't beat that content either. That is a pretty bad situation for the game, so companies rather go for the other way.
Which is making the content too easy. Sure, people will be look-a-likes in the end, but at least they all have the feeling of beeing strong and good in the game.
Let's see what THE maker of WOW has to say about this in a recent exposé:
"Make Everything Overpowered:
Every unit, every class should feel unstoppable, overpowered and epic -- because it's just more fun that way.
Pardo told a short story about Designer Island, an area that used to exist in game for designers to play with landscapes and NPCs. He said he was given two abilities on his bar that you don't see in game – a grow button, and a shrink button that would either grow or shrink the target by 10%. After bringing in Nefarian, he said he must have hit the grow button about twenty times before he finally stopped and said "That's the size we want him." Afterward he noted "I don't even know why they gave me the shrink spell, I've never used it to this day!"
And this simple fact is proving a lot of things really:
There simply is no fun in having a (sure) kill on a mob that lasts for 2 minutes. Ignore even the fact you would have to kill such a mob 5000 times to gain just one level... (read Korean grinders).
Also:
"Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master:
The concept here is to keep game play simple in terms of mechanics and objectives, but design the game in a way that the challenges scale with the ability of play. Pardo stated that Blizzard is focusing more on designing for multiplayer games first now, rather than single player, so they design for the multiplayer aspects, giving games a lot of depth so that players won't get bored with it.
He also said that WoW is a pretty hardcore game, but the key is that it's accessible to a lot more gamers -- endgame content like raiding and arenas are a lot more hardcore than leveling itself."
Also:
"Control is King: Controls should be as responsive as possible.
While players have clamored for different animations and effects, Pardo gave some very specific examples of why they simply wouldn't work. As it stands, when you summon a mount it simply appears beneath you in a puff of smoke -- the animation department suggested that it would be really cool if you'd actually call your mount and have it run to you so you could hop on it, going so far as to mock up the animation for it. But there was a downside to this -- it took several seconds for that animation to play out, and if say, a rogue jumped out to stun lock you, you probably didn't want to be stuck stunned and rapidly dying while watching your horse gallop up to meet you. So they settled with the puff of smoke we're all familiar with."
So you're saying just because a game has the interface of WoW it's a clone? AoC is nothing like WoW and it's coming back with a vengeance. I will admit WAR is toast. Not because its a so-called "WoW Clone" but because the PvP is bland and alot of levels you feel so alone it's not even funny. And technically WoW is an "EQ Clone" and EQ would be an "Ultima Clone" and Ultima would be similar to some MUD. I just fucking hate when ignorant people start assuming games are WoW Clones.
It's not only the interface, it's everything except combat and graphics.
It goes WAY WAY beyond "inspirations" WoW took from EQ.
And the problem is that EACH and every MMO after WoW reused the same structure.
And the basic structure is this: start at a fixed location, take all the quests from NPCS, do them, pass on to the next location. I challenge you to find an MMO that did this before WoW came. And consequently i challenge you to find a AAA MMO that did NOT do this.
Sure, there's always some exterior change, WAR has(or had?) PvP. But we all know that the quests scheme is the main feature of those MMO's, and that it literally chokes every other feature to death. For me the quests system is the very essence of WoW and its clones, because with it always comes a series of gameplay mechanics that make the clone. If you do a quest you expect gear as reward(which nullifies the reason for realistic economy), if you do a quest you expect an instanced dungeon to do with friends, if you do a quest you expect mob to be at your level, if you do a quest you expect to be hand-held thru a fixed series of maps which nullifies a sandbox feel to the game.
And so on. The only thing that's allowed to change is the WAY you are said to "go kill 10 rats then come back", so we've seen a lot of different combat systems.
Im not saying that if there's quests, there's necessarily a clone, but in most cases it's exactly what happens.
Darkfall. Fallen Earth. Mortal Online. Xsyon. These are games that break the mold you speak of.
And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?
the games I listed aren't designed for mass market appeal, and I never claimed they were.
Those who want more of the same have plenty to choose from. But more and more I see these threads of discontent with the current state of MMORPG gaming.....these "niche" games are designed to serve that audience.
However it seems that the "niche" is growing. Less people are content with playing the same game with a different coat of paint over and over again. Time for many to shrug off the training wheels, and dig into an MMORPG with substance.
Darkfall. Fallen Earth. Mortal Online. Xsyon. These are games that break the mold you speak of.
And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?
the games I listed aren't designed for mass market appeal, and I never claimed they were.
Those who want more of the same have plenty to choose from. But more and more I see these threads of discontent with the current state of MMORPG gaming.....these "niche" games are designed to serve that audience.
However it seems that the "niche" is growing. Less people are content with playing the same game with a different coat of paint over and over again. Time for many to shrug off the training wheels, and dig into an MMORPG with substance.
Hopefully the niche will actually continue to grow for some time. Considering the fact that the "mmo king" is finally showing signs of the inevitable, perhaps that niche will grow substantially over the next few years.
Of course this is banking on whether or not the majority of those still straggling along with the "king" are mmo players first and "king" players second.
Concerning SW:TOR, I was really hyped by the initial trailer, but once the first gameplay videos came out, I was really disappointed in how the game seemed to play.
The characters seemed really.... awkward. Their animations, I mean. Hopefully this will be polished before released.
The environments seem a little dull to me, as well. I'm not entirely sure why, just a weird feeling.
The only aspects that I enjoyed were the dialogue system and the cover system, which seem to mix the usual MMO gameplay up.
Concerning SW:TOR, I was really hyped by the initial trailer, but once the first gameplay videos came out, I was really disappointed in how the game seemed to play. The characters seemed really.... awkward. Their animations, I mean. Hopefully this will be polished before released. The environments seem a little dull to me, as well. I'm not entirely sure why, just a weird feeling. The only aspects that I enjoyed were the dialogue system and the cover system, which seem to mix the usual MMO gameplay up.
Hopefully the end result will be better.
That's the same impression I got. While I'm sure the story will be epic, (Bioware stories usually are), I'm not too sure on gameplay. Seems a little clunky to me. I also don't at all like the limit in class options. I mean this is Star Wars after all. The best they could come up with is 8 classes? Or....6 rather, if you consider two jedi and two sith classes per side. They could have had sooooo many more. And limiting it to two factions is a further hamstring in my opinion. With all the different factions to choose from in the Star Wars universe, they could have at least added in 1-2 more.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
lol you included Everquest 2 as part of the poor WoW clones after 2005 when fact is everquest 2 came out november 8th 2004 while WoW came out november 23rd 2004.and everquest is pretty good mmo. actually everquest 2 has increased it's numbers and many those are former WoW players. beyond the everquest 2 comment i agree to many WoW clones have slowed and hurt the market but time will tell.
lol you included Everquest 2 as part of the poor WoW clones after 2005 when fact is everquest 2 came out november 8th 2004 while WoW came out november 23rd 2004.and everquest is pretty good mmo. actually everquest 2 has increased it's numbers and many those are former WoW players. beyond the everquest 2 comment i agree to many WoW clones have slowed and hurt the market but time will tell.
EQ2 was subjected to an "NGE" to make it more like WoW.
Comments
I cant believe that anyone that takes an honest look at the mmorpg market and availability cant find a game that suits their interest. The larger, more well known development studios and publishing houses have shown to be in it for a short-term buck as evident by lack luster releases over the past couple years.
But outside of their circle, the independent studios have done a very good job at providing diversity. I believe that most people can find a game in the sea of mmorpg's that they find appealing.
So you're saying just because a game has the interface of WoW it's a clone? AoC is nothing like WoW and it's coming back with a vengeance. I will admit WAR is toast. Not because its a so-called "WoW Clone" but because the PvP is bland and alot of levels you feel so alone it's not even funny. And technically WoW is an "EQ Clone" and EQ would be an "Ultima Clone" and Ultima would be similar to some MUD. I just fucking hate when ignorant people start assuming games are WoW Clones.
So here is the first non creative response. Granted, WoW is just another fantasy game, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it an EQ clone. Just because a game shares a genre with another, does not make it a clone. Wow thought outside the box, and did things differently, albeit slightly. And what happened? Blizzard dominates the industry from 2005 to present.
If you think I am ignorant for my opinions, you are obviously free to say so. However, do so in a constructive manner, instead of coming in here and sounding like an angry 12 year old. Most people in here so far have agreed with me. I would love to hear a side from someone who doesn't.
So if you respond again, please be constructive about it. Nowhere in my post did I say any game that had a similar GUI was a WoW clone. There are numerous other factors, gameplay, mechanics, classes, etc.
People can always find something to say that something else copied off of it. Perfect example, I don't know how many posts/reviews/etc I've read where people say Fallen Earth is a Fallout ripoff. What about Mad Max? I remember seeing one of the main screenies before Fallout 3 came out. The one they kept hyping around everywhere with the guy walking down the street with his dog. That's practically the cover of The Road Warrior, but I haven't seen one person mention this.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
To all buffoons who say wow was a clone of anything... it's warcraft fools! No other mmo has had a better franchise at its disposal and besides all the other obvious reasons this is why previous and present mmo's remain uninteresting. Especially for those of us who already loved warcraft, being able to immerse in the warcraft world was all we needed to start paying monthly. Before that who cares about mmo's. I don't care how cool you think you are because you did everquest and final fantasy, star wars, bla. Most mmo gamers now don't care because until wow we weren't given a good enough reason to join you. Did I say we don't care?
You'll get your wish in about 9 months if all goes well. That's when the Incarna expansion should (I hope) be launching, and we can finally get out of our pods.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
And games that are trying to go outside the box will get igorned or bashed as never before here at mmorp.com... sometimes I wonder if there is only former wow-junkies (like myself ) at this forum
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
You'll get your wish in about 9 months if all goes well. That's when the Incarna expansion should (I hope) be launching, and we can finally get out of our pods.
im not sure incarna or whatever it will be called, will offer a FPS experience, for that im guessing you'll have to rely on dust514, but it will probably inject a certain amount of 'immersion' into the game - particular for those who have complained about their innability to see their own feet
.... what Incarna will bring to the game player wise, will i think mostly be 'cosmetic' i could be wrong on that, wait and see i guess because with CCP, its never a good idea to underestimate just what their capable of pulling off... Eve is the only game i see myself still playing in 10 years time 
and those games are????
(esp. in terms of masses. I wouldn't call DF or FE a huge success, even if they may be more in the lines of what the OP means as "non-wow-clones)
So you're saying just because a game has the interface of WoW it's a clone? AoC is nothing like WoW and it's coming back with a vengeance. I will admit WAR is toast. Not because its a so-called "WoW Clone" but because the PvP is bland and alot of levels you feel so alone it's not even funny. And technically WoW is an "EQ Clone" and EQ would be an "Ultima Clone" and Ultima would be similar to some MUD. I just fucking hate when ignorant people start assuming games are WoW Clones.
So here is the first non creative response. Granted, WoW is just another fantasy game, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it an EQ clone. Just because a game shares a genre with another, does not make it a clone. Wow thought outside the box, and did things differently, albeit slightly. And what happened? Blizzard dominates the industry from 2005 to present.
If you think I am ignorant for my opinions, you are obviously free to say so. However, do so in a constructive manner, instead of coming in here and sounding like an angry 12 year old. Most people in here so far have agreed with me. I would love to hear a side from someone who doesn't.
So if you respond again, please be constructive about it. Nowhere in my post did I say any game that had a similar GUI was a WoW clone. There are numerous other factors, gameplay, mechanics, classes, etc.
People can always find something to say that something else copied off of it. Perfect example, I don't know how many posts/reviews/etc I've read where people say Fallen Earth is a Fallout ripoff. What about Mad Max? I remember seeing one of the main screenies before Fallout 3 came out. The one they kept hyping around everywhere with the guy walking down the street with his dog. That's practically the cover of The Road Warrior, but I haven't seen one person mention this.
it's all yes and no.
don't forget that diablo (II) already was pretty close to WoW in the sense of gear and skill points. And Diablo vs EQ are timely about the same, so who is the clone of who?
Regarding the OPs definition of Wow-clone, one should take that with a grain of salt for the sake of discussion. It's maybe not the "interface" or whatever per se, but the fact that Blizzard had succes with this type of game (clone of whatever else if you will) and others want to copy the style to go the easy path to get a chunk of the market.
On the other hand, there are some good "clones" out there - LOTRO for one can be considered as one, some don't think so, some do (there are a lot of disputes out there), let's just say it is - then it is a pretty good one. Maybe not the IP as many fans wanted, but it definetly is better made than AoC or STO or perhaps even Warhammer.
F2P like to make clones of wow-eq-whatever - why? Because they can get the market of people who can't afford a monthly fee but actually want to play something like WoW.
What the heck, this has been discussed to kingdom come, noone here will ever agree with everyone.
and those games are????
(esp. in terms of masses. I wouldn't call DF or FE a huge success, even if they may be more in the lines of what the OP means as "non-wow-clones)
Just pointing out, for example, that DF and FE (their dev team, publishing, community responsiveness and support) have demonstrated to me to be more successful than STO backed by Cryptic/Atari, for example. So that's comparing 2 independent studios to a supposed AAA studio, as one example.
and those games are????
(esp. in terms of masses. I wouldn't call DF or FE a huge success, even if they may be more in the lines of what the OP means as "non-wow-clones)
Just pointing out, for example, that DF and FE (their dev team, publishing, community responsiveness and support) have demonstrated to me to be more successful than STO backed by Cryptic/Atari, for example. So that's comparing 2 independent studios to a supposed AAA studio, as one example.
Spin won't pay Icarus or Aventurine's bills....nice try though...
and those games are????
(esp. in terms of masses. I wouldn't call DF or FE a huge success, even if they may be more in the lines of what the OP means as "non-wow-clones)
Just pointing out, for example, that DF and FE (their dev team, publishing, community responsiveness and support) have demonstrated to me to be more successful than STO backed by Cryptic/Atari, for example. So that's comparing 2 independent studios to a supposed AAA studio, as one example.
Spin won't pay Icarus or Aventurine's bills....nice try though...
Right. Alot of subscribers are.
I think one problem for mmos is that for most developers its considered a whole different sort of platform really. Kinda like trying to make a game on a mac. So it is only done by a few select big developers and then the others that only do mmos. Blizzard afterall was a big developer and then they decided to make an mmo, just like with Final Fantasy, and no Bioware.
I just think for the mmo industry to move forward we need more of the big teams that work on the single player games that normally just have multiplayer support and get more of them to create worlds that the mmo genra is in need of. Right now I just feel that the mmo industry is in need to an influx of tallent and teams that try and be more creative. That and enough funding to really get things going.
Over the past few years as people have stated some small indie companies have developed mmos. These games though while trying to innovate are held back by poor implementation, and lack of skills to get products that really compete. Time to break open the walls that seperate the mmo devs and those that make everything else and infuse new blood into the world, or else the future mmos will all begin to turn into imbreads due to all of the incest that they have been doing over the years.
And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?
Or did it perhaps occur to you that the people posting in this thread might not want mass appeal to their game?
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
You'll get your wish in about 9 months if all goes well. That's when the Incarna expansion should (I hope) be launching, and we can finally get out of our pods.
Now see, that looks awesome. I would love to give EvE another go if I could just get out of my ship lol. I'll have to follow that. Thanks for the heads up.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
Exactly. You touch on a point that I didn't really expand on. All the developers care about is money these days. Granted, the goal of any company is to make money, but I think that at the same time, they should be making products people like. Otherwise we end up with companies like SOE that clearly do not give two craps about their customers or their games. It's all about the almighty dollar.
One of the fallacies with the join the World of Warcraft parade was being to late. Granted WOW has a market audience though mainly Asian its market is huge for an American game developer ie Blizzard. Though successful there are millions of players that have quit and will never return. Of course money is an objective but the blind faith that they can make a WOW clone and do it better killed the cat. Sid Meier spoke at the game developers conference talked about the new market in reference to social gaming ie Facebook and it's 90 MILLION subscribers to a silly flash game called Farmville etc, etc. Sure it's free but it has near 10 times as many players as even WOW does lol.. He spoke on the psychological factor of games as well. I pass by the games section in computer stores very often. I pick up a new game and say to myself, " I have 10 of that type game already", put it down and leave spending no money. That's what alot of old school players do. I would gladly pay 30 bucks a month for a subscription game online that actually offered a fun gaming experience. Until they i'll play the cheap and easy unchallenging games on FB.
Exactly. You touch on a point that I didn't really expand on. All the developers care about is money these days. Granted, the goal of any company is to make money, but I think that at the same time, they should be making products people like. Otherwise we end up with companies like SOE that clearly do not give two craps about their customers or their games. It's all about the almighty dollar.
One of the fallacies with the join the World of Warcraft parade was being to late. Granted WOW has a market audience though mainly Asian its market is huge for an American game developer ie Blizzard. Though successful there are millions of players that have quit and will never return. Of course money is an objective but the blind faith that they can make a WOW clone and do it better killed the cat. Sid Meier spoke at the game developers conference talked about the new market in reference to social gaming ie Facebook and it's 90 MILLION subscribers to a silly flash game called Farmville etc, etc. Sure it's free but it has near 10 times as many players as even WOW does lol.. He spoke on the psychological factor of games as well. I pass by the games section in computer stores very often. I pick up a new game and say to myself, " I have 10 of that type game already", put it down and leave spending no money. That's what alot of old school players do. I would gladly pay 30 bucks a month for a subscription game online that actually offered a fun gaming experience. Until they i'll play the cheap and easy unchallenging games on FB.
You might as well compare Hearts and Freecell to WOW while you're at it=) Social gaming...hehe. Clicking a few buttons for a minute or two is NOT a game. If millions want to keep playing them, they can have them. Have fun wasting your life away=)
yes they want to be superhero but,how they can feel like suppahero,without challenges and doing super things??
it is that reward ,give "epics" to everyone and everyone feels like suppahero.
Well that is the conflict. To generalize it: each player wants to be able to kill everything, have the best equipment and be the champ of the virtual world. Also, each players wants to be different, and better than the others. And both doesn't go well together.
Now, if the companies would create a game with very difficult to beat content, than the tiny percentage of players would feel like heroes (they have beaten everything) and better than the others (who haven't achieved the same). Most players however would feel bad, because there is content they have no chance of beating, and they look the same as most others, who can't beat that content either. That is a pretty bad situation for the game, so companies rather go for the other way.
Which is making the content too easy. Sure, people will be look-a-likes in the end, but at least they all have the feeling of beeing strong and good in the game.
Let's see what THE maker of WOW has to say about this in a recent exposé:
"Make Everything Overpowered:
Every unit, every class should feel unstoppable, overpowered and epic -- because it's just more fun that way.
Pardo told a short story about Designer Island, an area that used to exist in game for designers to play with landscapes and NPCs. He said he was given two abilities on his bar that you don't see in game – a grow button, and a shrink button that would either grow or shrink the target by 10%. After bringing in Nefarian, he said he must have hit the grow button about twenty times before he finally stopped and said "That's the size we want him." Afterward he noted "I don't even know why they gave me the shrink spell, I've never used it to this day!"
And this simple fact is proving a lot of things really:
There simply is no fun in having a (sure) kill on a mob that lasts for 2 minutes. Ignore even the fact you would have to kill such a mob 5000 times to gain just one level... (read Korean grinders).
Also:
"Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master:
The concept here is to keep game play simple in terms of mechanics and objectives, but design the game in a way that the challenges scale with the ability of play. Pardo stated that Blizzard is focusing more on designing for multiplayer games first now, rather than single player, so they design for the multiplayer aspects, giving games a lot of depth so that players won't get bored with it.
He also said that WoW is a pretty hardcore game, but the key is that it's accessible to a lot more gamers -- endgame content like raiding and arenas are a lot more hardcore than leveling itself."
Also:
"Control is King: Controls should be as responsive as possible.
While players have clamored for different animations and effects, Pardo gave some very specific examples of why they simply wouldn't work. As it stands, when you summon a mount it simply appears beneath you in a puff of smoke -- the animation department suggested that it would be really cool if you'd actually call your mount and have it run to you so you could hop on it, going so far as to mock up the animation for it. But there was a downside to this -- it took several seconds for that animation to play out, and if say, a rogue jumped out to stun lock you, you probably didn't want to be stuck stunned and rapidly dying while watching your horse gallop up to meet you. So they settled with the puff of smoke we're all familiar with."
Source: http://www.wow.com/2010/03/12/rob-pardo-speaks-about-blizzard-game-design/
People on mmorpg.com and certainly their developpers should first read what Pardo has to say.
I think he is one of the very few developpers with a working brain actually.
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
It's not only the interface, it's everything except combat and graphics.
It goes WAY WAY beyond "inspirations" WoW took from EQ.
And the problem is that EACH and every MMO after WoW reused the same structure.
And the basic structure is this: start at a fixed location, take all the quests from NPCS, do them, pass on to the next location. I challenge you to find an MMO that did this before WoW came. And consequently i challenge you to find a AAA MMO that did NOT do this.
Sure, there's always some exterior change, WAR has(or had?) PvP. But we all know that the quests scheme is the main feature of those MMO's, and that it literally chokes every other feature to death. For me the quests system is the very essence of WoW and its clones, because with it always comes a series of gameplay mechanics that make the clone. If you do a quest you expect gear as reward(which nullifies the reason for realistic economy), if you do a quest you expect an instanced dungeon to do with friends, if you do a quest you expect mob to be at your level, if you do a quest you expect to be hand-held thru a fixed series of maps which nullifies a sandbox feel to the game.
And so on. The only thing that's allowed to change is the WAY you are said to "go kill 10 rats then come back", so we've seen a lot of different combat systems.
Im not saying that if there's quests, there's necessarily a clone, but in most cases it's exactly what happens.
the best blog of the net
And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?
the games I listed aren't designed for mass market appeal, and I never claimed they were.
Those who want more of the same have plenty to choose from. But more and more I see these threads of discontent with the current state of MMORPG gaming.....these "niche" games are designed to serve that audience.
However it seems that the "niche" is growing. Less people are content with playing the same game with a different coat of paint over and over again. Time for many to shrug off the training wheels, and dig into an MMORPG with substance.
And so far, they all have no mass appeal. Go figure.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe most people just WANT more of the same?
the games I listed aren't designed for mass market appeal, and I never claimed they were.
Those who want more of the same have plenty to choose from. But more and more I see these threads of discontent with the current state of MMORPG gaming.....these "niche" games are designed to serve that audience.
However it seems that the "niche" is growing. Less people are content with playing the same game with a different coat of paint over and over again. Time for many to shrug off the training wheels, and dig into an MMORPG with substance.
Hopefully the niche will actually continue to grow for some time. Considering the fact that the "mmo king" is finally showing signs of the inevitable, perhaps that niche will grow substantially over the next few years.
Of course this is banking on whether or not the majority of those still straggling along with the "king" are mmo players first and "king" players second.
Concerning SW:TOR, I was really hyped by the initial trailer, but once the first gameplay videos came out, I was really disappointed in how the game seemed to play.
The characters seemed really.... awkward. Their animations, I mean. Hopefully this will be polished before released.
The environments seem a little dull to me, as well. I'm not entirely sure why, just a weird feeling.
The only aspects that I enjoyed were the dialogue system and the cover system, which seem to mix the usual MMO gameplay up.
Hopefully the end result will be better.
i can see no ones eating there prunes
That's the same impression I got. While I'm sure the story will be epic, (Bioware stories usually are), I'm not too sure on gameplay. Seems a little clunky to me. I also don't at all like the limit in class options. I mean this is Star Wars after all. The best they could come up with is 8 classes? Or....6 rather, if you consider two jedi and two sith classes per side. They could have had sooooo many more. And limiting it to two factions is a further hamstring in my opinion. With all the different factions to choose from in the Star Wars universe, they could have at least added in 1-2 more.
A Requiem For Argos, now available at e-book retailers.
lol you included Everquest 2 as part of the poor WoW clones after 2005 when fact is everquest 2 came out november 8th 2004 while WoW came out november 23rd 2004.and everquest is pretty good mmo. actually everquest 2 has increased it's numbers and many those are former WoW players. beyond the everquest 2 comment i agree to many WoW clones have slowed and hurt the market but time will tell.
EQ2 was subjected to an "NGE" to make it more like WoW.