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Poll : What is your opinion of GM bans for exploiting mobs (PvE) in DarkFall?
This thread is a good one to get a good idea of where this question it at currently:
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
(Yeah I know... it's 17 pages long... but at least try and read a few pages of it. It seems about 50/50 on current player's opinion on the subject).
Here are the pertinent policies regarding mob exploits:
"Starting today, players exploiting the geometry will receive temporary bans which for repeat offenders will escalate to permanent bans. This means that when we detect players inside the terrain, rocks, trees, buildings, walls, towers etc. we will be taking action against them. This policy will be posted inside the game lobby and there will be no appeals for these offenses."
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
"We have also been issuing temporary bans to players exploiting the terrain and structures in the world. These temporary bans will lead to longer and eventually permanent bans to repeat offenders. We regret having to enforce our policies but we need to protect the player base from those that refuse to play fairly. "
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
"We brought down the servers to correct an exploit that surfaced allowing players to do a large amount of damage to their targets.
The few players that have used this exploit for considerable gain have received temporary bans, their accounts are on probation, and they will have their inventory corrected. Two accounts have been permanently banned.
After we discover a bug like this, our procedure is to look through our logs and investigate the exploiters. We issue temporary or permanent bans depending on the gravity of the exploitation and we wipe inventories."
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
"In-game exploits: Our GMs are instructed to give out warnings and to escalate temporary bans to permanent ones. This is done diligently. We get a detailed report on all activities and we monitor repeat offenders very closely and by monitor I mean we look very deep at all their activities and interactions.
We also watch for any abnormal patterns in the logs and investigate them. We've gone into clan vaults and wiped them out, wiped player inventories, and mass banned accounts in the past.
We are updating our policy on exploiting to start with a 3 day ban and a warning for the first offense, it will continue in a bank wipe, and end with a perma-ban."
forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php
So... with all that as a background:
Comments
These bans are not nearly as strict as they should be. These players should be perma-banned.
Edit: Also, I see you voted that you think the bans are too harsh. Care to elaborate why you think that?
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
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Well, if someone is exploiting then they should be warned, temp banned then perma banned.
Don't want warnings and bans? Don't exploit.
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Honestly, good for them, they're banning the idiots that ruin the game.
If you ask me, if someone exploits/hacks more than once, perma ban on the spot, hell ban the IP.
"The question that sometimes drives me hazy: Am I, or the others crazy?" - Albert Einstein
None of this would be an issue if people in darkfall would just PLAY THE GAME RIGHT.
I have never been in a game where everyone always wanted to take the easy way to do EVERYTHING, it's pathetic.
Thanks for the input Miles.
Actually... I voted that I think they are about right.
I've read the entire thread on the official forums that I linked in the OP. There seem to be pros and cons to both sides of the debate.
- There should be more consistency between the different GMs and there should be more clarity on what is and is not considered exploiting. It does seem a bit harsh for someone who really didn't know better to receive a 3-day for something that could be considered smart gameplay.
vs.
- Those that are first to do the exploiting seem to suffer little if any consequences for their repeated offenses. There should be more bans of entire clans and/or bank wipes for clans that encourage such action.
According to DarkFall's policy...
There are no warnings. The first offense is a 3-day ban AND warning.
"We are updating our policy on exploiting to start with a 3 day ban and a warning for the first offense..."
Not saying I don't agree with you... just saying... there isn't really a warning currently.
i vote that they spend time fixing their terrain, trees, buildings etc.. so people cant hide in em. that would would really show those hackers!!
Thanks for the input Miles.
Actually... I voted that I think they are about right.
I've read the entire thread on the official forums that I linked in the OP. There seem to be pros and cons to both sides of the debate.
- There should be more consistency between the different GMs and there should be more clarity on what is and is not considered exploiting. It does seem a bit harsh for someone who really didn't know better to receive a 3-day for something that is could be considered smart gameplay.
vs.
- Those that are first to do the exploiting seem to suffer little if any consequences for their repeated offenses. There should be more bans of entire clans and/or bank wipes for clans that encourage such action.
I normally would see this as a "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" kind of deal, but given that Darkfall is fiercely competitive, I think a harsher penalty is in order. Slapping people on the wrist is like sending letters from Dreamworks telling you to stop downloading movies.
They think they got away with it, so they'll continue to do it, but at a later time. I say they make a scene. Show people not to take advantage of the game that developers have put so much time into just to get ahead.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
xzyax,
Actually after the 3 day ban, the next step is a week ban with a bank wipe
So they do wipe banks of repeat exploiters, just not the first time.
Darkfall GM's used to just warn for these things, but the system was so abused by players that it was stopped.
In DF though, it's very easy to tell (most times) if you are exploiting, it's not really something that sneaks up on you.
"oh the monster can't move because i got it stuck in a rock and it can't attack me?" I mean come on
But a 1 warning per account system should be done in my opinion.
I agree with you on hacks, which I think should be a different discussion than exploits.
Aventurine treats hacks differently as well. The first offense for hacks (when they catch a reported player); is indeed a perma ban.
Thanks all for the input... good discussion.
Yes, I realize that.
However, according to a sizeable majority of players on the official forums; there are clans in DarkFall that consistently encourage their members to exploit. Those clans should have their entire clan bank wiped, as well as every member's individual bank wiped. Perhaps even the clan disbanded.
That was what I was getting at.
As an example would be The Mercs in the early days of the EU server.
Or, the clans that regularly exploited The Devil before he was "fixed".
I agree completely. The well known 'crap clans' should have it all taken away.
Lets face it the skills and loot was used to buy equips, get holding, etc. Strip it all.
Empty the clan banks and player banks, and put the cities up for grabs. If they did this ONE TIME it would really discourage people from being crap in the future.
I'm going to play Devil's Advocated for a little:
While I do agree with GMs cracking down on exploiters, and people who abuse the system. Why should players be banned for doing something that is possible in the game? Shouldn't the Devs do some patch work and fix what is broken? If something is in game, and isn't working as intended, it needs to be fixed. As long as a player's actions, are with in sanctioned limits of gameplay, I don't feel a ban is fair. If per say, a player uses a macro or hack/cheat to alter code and/or change a mob's behavior, then action against that player is warranted. But if AV is slacking, and doesn't do their part with player subscriptions (IE. The money coming in for development and upkeep) then I feel they are at fault, and not the player.
Franker
PS. This is just to see an opposite view on the issue. By no means am I supporting hackers/cheaters/or anything remotely close near exploiting of any sorts.
I agree, but on most games there are ways to abuse the system, however, Darkfall is easier than most to do it.
Hopefully something will be done by the devs, and something REALLY should be done, but as it common knowledge that exploiting = bad, the bans are justified still in my opinion. I do think though that AV needs to come out with a 100% clear definition of their criteria on EXACTLY what is exploiting so that you don't get the 'accidental bans'.
With a clear definition then there should be no issue in game with exploiting as everyone knows what it is, how to spot it, and how to avoid doing it. The ones found doing it after that would be well deserving of their punishment.
That is pretty much to a tee what the whole debate is about.
If you haven't read the link to the really long thread on the official forums that I put in the OP... you should read it. Some players bring up the very same point that you did.
There isn't really a black or white answer to the debate. Hence the reason why I phrased the question in the poll as I did.
I read enough, I just was giving my two-cents. Which isn't worth shit, but more to express my overbearing opinion.
Franker
PS. So yeah, I think AV is at fault. As I feel accountability and integrity are what define one's self.
PSS. Though people are asshats, and knowingly commit actions which are wrong.
Hella ya! Hopefully the folks who take DFO way too seriously read this and it puts a scare into them. DFO is a ton of fun to play but the things people do to try to be more "uber" the rest is a joke. Its a video game...lol
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
The mob exploiting doesn't involve any hacks, its usually the mobs that are messed up in some way. For example, for awhile at eu beginning the devil would bug up. The arctic bears west of Uqtu, jump on top of the rocks next to pillars and the bears run into the wall and get stuck. Manscorpians south of Ul'Sulak, when they spawn they were 100% immobile. The manscorpians on skull island were also bugged. The giant lizard things that roam ruby, certain places you can use trees to get them stuck in and work up melee skills endlessly with that new patch that made certain mobs tougher to specific damages.
The list goes on, I reported the manscorpian camp about 2months after na release. and It was about 5months later before they started to mess with the camp, for awhile they removed them, then returned them but without loot. Then removed them again. They just leave these bugged camps in the game way to long before acting out on things.
These penatlties are about right for intentional exploits, I would say.
However, there have been cases where players have been banned where it might not have been clear that an exploit was being used.
For example, you are fighting some mobs in some ruins, and you get low on health. You run into the ruins and up the stairs to heal, and a mob follows you....you kill the mob on the stairs, not realising that the mob can't get back out of the building again, and is technically "stuck".
I don't think the player is in any wrong in this instance, and yet the player could technically be banned for this.
Honestly, I really think these things should be determined on a case-by-case basis....blanket policies rarely do any good, IMO.
BUT....that said, it is good that AV are at least doing what they can to limit exploitation of mobs.
Imho, if a player exploits on purposes, that player deserves an instant permanent ban.
If a player however stumbles upon a bug, without knowing it leads to some kind of exploits, then that player should just get a message of some sort.
Finding out which is what though... well, luckily that ain't my job. :P
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
How about making a list of all un-fixed exploits and put it in a box at login that players have to click 'ok' to get in the game? Then its alot easier to see who "stumbled" on a bug, or is actually exploiting the game. If a player exploits a bug that was on the list, perma ban.
Good suggestion or bad?
Its not the players fault that they can get into an object on their server. Until the developers fix this the current policy is to strict. It should be a 3 strike and your out ban. Warning > 3 day > 1 week > perma-ban
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
"Don't ask, don't tell" policy may sound stupid, but if 99% players don't know about particular exploit, they won't going to try it.
Players usually know exactly when they're breaking rules. One clan had doubts if their tactics to defeat devil is legit - so they've asked GM to come and see it. Real exploiters, mount-kicking minotaurs from inside the walls, would never ask GM to check it - because they know exactly that it's not legit tactics.
People that got banned for mob exploiting ignored messages from GMs telling them clearly that they are using exploit, and should stop doing it.
I think it's lenient but just right, for those few that made genuine mistakes or are retards. It means if they get caught twice there really is no excuse, but everyone knows when they're exploiting geometry it's not rocket science. Just let there be a first time where some who made genuine mistakes will get educated, atleast then no one can complain that they "didn't know" or "no one told me" even though only retard would be un aware of wether they're exploiting or not 99% of the time.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis
doesnt really matter anymore,damage is done allready.
Generation P