I can't think of anything in life where having more experience in something makes you more credible.
Yes you all sound that stupid, moving on.
The entire PREMISE of arguing about games is ignorant. I agree. And yet...we all still come here to do it. Then on the other hand, LOTS of things that are fun to do, particularly when it comes to hobbies and the love of those hobbies....are logically ignorant foundationally. Just look at other hobbies. You'll find the same ridiculous rambling and rantings going on with them. Did you know there are miniature golf forums? Yeah....miniature golf. Ooo and bowling too. There are pretty much forums with the same type of silly discourse going on, on every subject or hobby you could imagine.
I think (or rather hope) he was being sarcastic because my entire working career has revolved around credibilty based on experience.
Yes I was being sarcastic. To add to this conversation, I don't think I need to argue why new gamers are ruining this genre lol. I just need to point everyone to this thread. There is a clear cut line between the generation of handouts, where everyone wins, and the generation where onlyh people who put effort into it win.
This is not a generational gap just in game. Kids and young adults in general were pampered as kids. Feed with a silver spoon, handed life on a platter. Most of the older gamers I know didn't. I'm sure the generation before us said the same things about us, however we invented games. We invented this genre. You can say all you want, but without us there wouldn't be a genre.
I for one am ok with the genre degenerating for the masses. I just want at least one developer with half a brain to make a game for the minority. Not sandbox, not pvp, what the genre was originally about, fantasy and adventure and a sense of community and coming together.
The analogy I'll use is woodstock then and how it was in the 90's. I don't think anyone argues the older of the two was better in both quality and meaning.
The casuals of today will be complaining once they figure out that they can make even more money buy just making a log in and a congratulations for being able to do that. It's all relative. Where is the bell curve where the amount of retards coming in for making something easier doesn't exceed the retards they already have? This is when we can stop seeing degeneration of the genre. Till then we will keep making things less immersive, less interactive, more shallow, and overall easier.
Then WoW came out. WoW took what EQ started, streamlined it and released a game that offered the more casual crowd their chance at doing what others could with less of a daily time investment. It wasnt a bad idea, in fact it was a great idea. It brought a new wave of people into the genre. The problem is all the dev companies decided that this sort of game is what everyone wants. Sadly the rest of us are left with games that feel too easy or shallow (not that a game has to be OMFG hard, but a little challenge - a little risk would be welcome. After all, whats the point in getting a reward for no effort?). For everything WoW offers it still feels small, lifeless and as though something is missing.
With no effort???
Say that when you are all decked in 277 gear and clear Lich King on hard mode. No noe has the right to say otherwise before that.
Heck, try beating 10man ICC on normal mode and then complain.
What my problem with WoW was, it wasn't challenging enough in the beginning. Quests I could do by my self pretty easy, every dungeon run I did, we all completed without a wipe. It just got borring to me by the time I got to 50, so I really can't say how much effort you put into Endgame. Yes I'm sure its not as easy as everyone makes it out to be, but there are games that make WoW look like a walk in the park.
Like FFXI, to actually get your own Chocobo not just rent one, you have to get an egg when it hatches you have to feed it, play with it, take it for walks and this takes a month Earth Time before you can even ride the thing. Thats just one of the many things in that game that IMO makes WoW seem so easy. I haven't even done any FFXI endgame yet so I really can't compare each at all since I've done neither. But If its anything like the rest of the game, it just might make WoW look easy as pie as well.
In its day, EQ was similar to WoW (go figure, WoW is just a kiddie version of EQ) in the sense that, it was more linear with a direct focus, and the devs gave the players a bunch of tiny goals to acomplish that made them feel great. However, in EQ, the world itself was much better fleshed out, and there were a lot more gameplay features, class depth, world design, and social structure than anything in WoW.
WoW is to EQ what Farmvile is to WoW. And MMos have just been going downhill since. But sure, the new people don't mind, cause they either weren't around back when MMOs were real MMOs, or they had no interest in those old MMOs, but the new ones are so radically different, they like them for casual fun. Nothing wrong with that... if they had their own genre. But instead, us "old timers" get kicked to the curb and ridiculed for enjoyed depth and socializing in online games.
Have to call a bit of BS here. Name a single class in EQ that has more depth than a single class in WOW? Which class in EQ has more options, more unique spells/abilities, and more variety? Which features does EQ have that WOW doesn't? Also think how many feature WOW has that EQ doesn't. What social structure existed in EQ that doesn't exist in WOW? Curious.
WOW's world design is about 100X more detailed than EQs by the way. An opinion of what you enjoy is one thing, but facts are facts. WOW's world is much more detailed and fleshed out with more attached lore and PURPOSE in its design.
I already know where you mind is though...EQ is a REAL MMO and WOW is just for kids? I already know your answers will be clouded in rose colored delusion=)
Substitute EQ2 for every EQ in the above highlighted text and your arguments utterly fall apart.
[1] EVERY class in EQ2 has far more depth than WoW classes. Incidentally, I played WoW for five full years and have several level 80s and a LOT of 70+. I have played ALL of WoW's classes except the paladin. Can't say I actually "played" a pally since my pally primarily became my bank and I never leveled her past level 25.
For two of the five years I played WoW, I also played EQ2 alongside of it. However, my highest level character in EQ2 is presently level 64. I also have a 54 and a 30.
Anyway....have you looked at the Advancedment System in EQ2? I know you probably haven't. Most people that play WoW don't ever venture outside of that "space" to really look at other games very objectively. As far as "talents" and "talent points" for character customization go, EQ2 has probably 20 times more you can do with your "talents." WoW has 3 "trees" for each class. EQ2 has 2 sub-classes for each archetype, and then FIVE "trees" you can "spec" into, along with 4 additional "trees" of a "secondary" type, and I'm trying to use WoW terminology to describe it, but it's something you'd have to SEE. It is FAR FAR more detailed with many more options. This...is a FACT.
Let me help you out with a few things:
EQ2 has had guild leveling for years. EQ2 had guild banks long before WoW did. EQ2's crafting system....SHAMES WoW's in not only it's depth, but it's usefulness and ability to "earn a living" for your characters. Crafted items are valuable and necessary from level 1 to 90. EQ2 has fantastic housing. EQ2 has very deep lore. EQ2 has a ridiculous number of ways you can advance your character. There are Lore and Legend quests, Heritage Quests, the Collection System which awards both items, combat xp, and AA xp. EQ2 has appearance gear, so people aren't all running around looking just alike. God, I loathe that about WoW. If you're in tier gear....you have no choice but to look JUST LIKE the next person in the same gear. UGH.
About the ONLY thing that WoW has on EQ2 right now....is PvP BGs. I can't even just say PvP, because EQ2's PvP servers are HARDCORE PvP. WoW BG PvP'ers would cry like little children over there. It is cutthroat. However....WoW does have smoothly functioning BGs, which EQ2 can't really claim yet, even though they are trying to implement their version of it.
Another thing....comparing WoW's graphics to EQ (original flavor) is MEANINGLESS. You're comparing a five year old game to a 15 year old game. How does that make even a REMOTE amount of sense? WoW players get TOTALLY bent when people compare today's games like AION graphics to WoW, and yet....they turn around and compare WoW to EQ1?? Why not compare WoW's graphics to the other two MMOs that were released at the SAME time instead? That would be Guild Wars and EQ2. Okay...on THAT note....WoW falls in line DEAD LAST. However...I have to admit, I like the whimsical nature of WoW's graphics. They are an entirely different STYLE than those of GW or EQ2, and the artistic design, imo...is awesome in WoW. So I actually, personally, like WoW's cartoon-like style, but I would not say the gfx are BETTER than either GW or EQ2, and that is a more FAIR comparison than comparing to EQ1.
Anyway....
No one really cares if you love WoW. I'm always happy when people find games they are happy in. BUT....we all have opinions. And some of those that play WoW expect that because THEY think it's the best game in the world, EVERY SINGLE GAMER will agree with them. FFS....are the 12 million people that are still playing WoW NOT enough for you? Do you need MORE people than THAT to validate your choice in games????
Why doesn't everyone just go play what makes them happy and quit arguing about things that are, for the MOST part, entirely subjective??
I just don't GET it.
More is not always better and the "more" that EQ2 typically crams into the game usually results in producing less. Such as the entire class systems that desperatly trys to produce distinct classes and at the same time generalize them into common utility roles. The end result is a system the has taught veteran players to warn new players away from a good chunk of classes that just underperform and give little incentive to include in activities.
The same thing pretty much applies to most of EQ2 better features. They have their own benefit, but at the same time ruin/harm some other portion of the game.
Crafting is more involved, but it diminishes pve content by selling the best get for 79/80 levels. House/guild hall interiors are nice, but they have made the common areas of the world look like ghost towns.
EQ2 is the little game that could and should, but continues to shoot itself in the foot. It could be a great game and should be a great game, but the developers don't listen, care and/or understand.
Then WoW came out. WoW took what EQ started, streamlined it and released a game that offered the more casual crowd their chance at doing what others could with less of a daily time investment. It wasnt a bad idea, in fact it was a great idea. It brought a new wave of people into the genre. The problem is all the dev companies decided that this sort of game is what everyone wants. Sadly the rest of us are left with games that feel too easy or shallow (not that a game has to be OMFG hard, but a little challenge - a little risk would be welcome. After all, whats the point in getting a reward for no effort?). For everything WoW offers it still feels small, lifeless and as though something is missing.
With no effort???
Say that when you are all decked in 277 gear and clear Lich King on hard mode. No noe has the right to say otherwise before that.
Heck, try beating 10man ICC on normal mode and then complain.
What my problem with WoW was, it wasn't challenging enough in the beginning. Quests I could do by my self pretty easy, every dungeon run I did, we all completed without a wipe. It just got borring to me by the time I got to 50, so I really can't say how much effort you put into Endgame. Yes I'm sure its not as easy as everyone makes it out to be, but there are games that make WoW look like a walk in the park.
Like FFXI, to actually get your own Chocobo not just rent one, you have to get an egg when it hatches you have to feed it, play with it, take it for walks and this takes a month Earth Time before you can even ride the thing. Thats just one of the many things in that game that IMO makes WoW seem so easy. I haven't even done any FFXI endgame yet so I really can't compare each at all since I've done neither. But If its anything like the rest of the game, it just might make WoW look easy as pie as well.
That Chocobo thing seems extremely easy. What is so hard about it? Where is the intellectual challenge in this?
Then WoW came out. WoW took what EQ started, streamlined it and released a game that offered the more casual crowd their chance at doing what others could with less of a daily time investment. It wasnt a bad idea, in fact it was a great idea. It brought a new wave of people into the genre. The problem is all the dev companies decided that this sort of game is what everyone wants. Sadly the rest of us are left with games that feel too easy or shallow (not that a game has to be OMFG hard, but a little challenge - a little risk would be welcome. After all, whats the point in getting a reward for no effort?). For everything WoW offers it still feels small, lifeless and as though something is missing.
With no effort???
Say that when you are all decked in 277 gear and clear Lich King on hard mode. No noe has the right to say otherwise before that.
Heck, try beating 10man ICC on normal mode and then complain.
What my problem with WoW was, it wasn't challenging enough in the beginning. Quests I could do by my self pretty easy, every dungeon run I did, we all completed without a wipe. It just got borring to me by the time I got to 50, so I really can't say how much effort you put into Endgame. Yes I'm sure its not as easy as everyone makes it out to be, but there are games that make WoW look like a walk in the park.
Like FFXI, to actually get your own Chocobo not just rent one, you have to get an egg when it hatches you have to feed it, play with it, take it for walks and this takes a month Earth Time before you can even ride the thing. Thats just one of the many things in that game that IMO makes WoW seem so easy. I haven't even done any FFXI endgame yet so I really can't compare each at all since I've done neither. But If its anything like the rest of the game, it just might make WoW look easy as pie as well.
That Chocobo thing seems extremely easy. What is so hard about it? Where is the intellectual challenge in this?
Figuring out what foods your choco likes, keeping its spirits high, curing illness and injuries. There are other things if you feel like reading http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Chocobo_Raising_Guide . While it may not be totally Intellectually challenging, it is time consuming and is more difficult to obtain compared to WoW's all I have to do is have money and I get a mount way of doing things.
Edit: Also I seem to see that people don't consider time consuming things difficult but to me they are, just in a different way. It also tests your patience as well as endurance just like an Intellectual challenge can test your patience and other things. Look at 24 Hours of Le Mans It not an easy feat to complete that race and is a time consuming.
Figuring out what foods your choco likes, keeping its spirits high, curing illness and injuries. There are other things if you feel like reading http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Chocobo_Raising_Guide . While it may not be totally Intellectually challenging, it is time consuming and is more difficult to obtain compared to WoW's all I have to do is have money and I get a mount way of doing things.
Edit: Also I seem to see that people don't consider time consuming things difficult but to me they are, just in a different way. It also tests your patience as well as endurance just like an Intellectual challenge can test your patience and other things. Look at 24 Hours of Le Mans It not an easy feat to complete that race and is a time consuming.
After reading that guide I definetly consider that activity intellectually challenging because of the many factors needed to do it properly and the fact that proper attention to detail will give you better results. However, the time span of it seems ridiculously long and unnecessary. Plus, if I cannot log in for a few days, do I lose all my progress from the previous months?
The LeMans race is an endurance challenge which really do not belong in video games.
Then WoW came out. WoW took what EQ started, streamlined it and released a game that offered the more casual crowd their chance at doing what others could with less of a daily time investment. It wasnt a bad idea, in fact it was a great idea. It brought a new wave of people into the genre. The problem is all the dev companies decided that this sort of game is what everyone wants. Sadly the rest of us are left with games that feel too easy or shallow (not that a game has to be OMFG hard, but a little challenge - a little risk would be welcome. After all, whats the point in getting a reward for no effort?). For everything WoW offers it still feels small, lifeless and as though something is missing.
With no effort???
Say that when you are all decked in 277 gear and clear Lich King on hard mode. No noe has the right to say otherwise before that.
Heck, try beating 10man ICC on normal mode and then complain.
What my problem with WoW was, it wasn't challenging enough in the beginning. Quests I could do by my self pretty easy, every dungeon run I did, we all completed without a wipe. It just got borring to me by the time I got to 50, so I really can't say how much effort you put into Endgame. Yes I'm sure its not as easy as everyone makes it out to be, but there are games that make WoW look like a walk in the park.
Like FFXI, to actually get your own Chocobo not just rent one, you have to get an egg when it hatches you have to feed it, play with it, take it for walks and this takes a month Earth Time before you can even ride the thing. Thats just one of the many things in that game that IMO makes WoW seem so easy. I haven't even done any FFXI endgame yet so I really can't compare each at all since I've done neither. But If its anything like the rest of the game, it just might make WoW look easy as pie as well.
That Chocobo thing seems extremely easy. What is so hard about it? Where is the intellectual challenge in this?
Figuring out what foods your choco likes, keeping its spirits high, curing illness and injuries. There are other things if you feel like reading http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Chocobo_Raising_Guide . While it may not be totally Intellectually challenging, it is time consuming and is more difficult to obtain compared to WoW's all I have to do is have money and I get a mount way of doing things.
Edit: Also I seem to see that people don't consider time consuming things difficult but to me they are, just in a different way. It also tests your patience as well as endurance just like an Intellectual challenge can test your patience and other things. Look at 24 Hours of Le Mans It not an easy feat to complete that race and is a time consuming.
I don't think these things are necessarily time-consuming, but I do agree they are somewhat intellectually challenging. These things you need to know (chocobo taste, spirit, illness, injury, etc.) are all things that signify responsibility. Responsibility is an intellectual challenge itself, not necessarily hard, but required and it may or may no be time-consuming. I think thats what these techniques are meant to be emulated in this video game.
The idea is that responsibility will lead to a more realistic and/or interactive experience with the game and your character. If you want to talk about time-consuming, consider grinding either for gold, level, or faction. This is what I believe to be truly time-consuming, and lacking in the requirement of intellectual challenge.
__________________________________________________________________________________________ "Your pride, good sir, far exceeds your worth." -x3r0h
Oldest mmorpg.com member with the least amount of post counts. That counts for something, right?
Figuring out what foods your choco likes, keeping its spirits high, curing illness and injuries. There are other things if you feel like reading http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Chocobo_Raising_Guide . While it may not be totally Intellectually challenging, it is time consuming and is more difficult to obtain compared to WoW's all I have to do is have money and I get a mount way of doing things.
Edit: Also I seem to see that people don't consider time consuming things difficult but to me they are, just in a different way. It also tests your patience as well as endurance just like an Intellectual challenge can test your patience and other things. Look at 24 Hours of Le Mans It not an easy feat to complete that race and is a time consuming.
After reading that guide I definetly consider that activity intellectually challenging because of the many factors needed to do it properly and the fact that proper attention to detail will give you better results. However, the time span of it seems ridiculously long and unnecessary. Plus, if I cannot log in for a few days, do I lose all my progress from the previous months?
The LeMans race is an endurance challenge which really do not belong in video games.
I guess its matter of opinion that is seems ridiculously long and unnecessary. I don't mind it at all, just like that boss in FFXI that people tried to kill for 18 hours and still failed. I think more games should put more endurance challenges in them. I don't know what exactly would happen if you missed a day because I didn't. But I don't think the choco would die, maybe it just goes by the actual times you visit. Like say you can only visit 3 times a week since you can only play the weekends it would take 10 weeks to be able to ride it.
You know what was cool about being "back in my days?" No one made these posts. Because "back in my day" we understood that stereotyping a whole group of completely different people didn't make sense.
Or maybe back then there was nothing to complain about because the MMos were actually good.
No joke. The thing that gets me about "these people" that try to bash the BIMDers is they try to throw out "nostalgia" and "rose colored glasses" like they are authorities on the matter. They fail, and badly, to see that we know those games back then weren't perfect. We aren't saying they were. But those games had alot more substance to them than the production line value that is getting Henry Ford'd out to us today in our view. And our view is just as valid as the ones who are throwing out snarky comments at us for having enjoyed and still preferring those style games.
You OBVIOUSLY missed the memo about "modern day gamers" (i.e. people 18 and under) being the ultimate authority now on what is good in games for everyone. From what I understand, this new generation of gamers, has super extra sensory gamer perception and they KNOW, for a fact, beyond any doubt, what is good gaming for all gamers world-wide. They're really amazing. It's theorized, by most scientists, that they developed these super human powers while playing World of Warcraft instead of graduating from high school. They're doing a lot of costly research on this subject to attempt to figure out how we lowly age 30+ gamers, in particular, can perhaps acquire this same level of gaming knowledge. You really should keep up with the memo board better, Man.
Just checked my inbox. It was in my spam folder.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Say that when you are all decked in 277 gear and clear Lich King on hard mode. No noe has the right to say otherwise before that.
I think this it he impass that old timers vs new mmo players are locked into.
Most new MMO gamers (usually to WoW) bring with them their expectations of a single player rather than that of an mmorpg.
What nariusseldon is essentially saying in his post that the only important part of WoW is the latest raid, in this case Icecrown Citadel, and that everything before that is unimportant. Now thats a very single player mentality where you have to "beat the game". When you start playing a single player game you start at the beginning and build up to the last stage/level and beat the bad guy. Game over.
While WoW's hardmodes are challenging they only represent a tiny percentage of the game and a part of the game that is totally and utterly optional. You do NOT have to complete any hardmore in WoW to progress.
As many people have pointed out early mmorpg's werent about beating the end boss and getting the best gear but that an mmorpg was about a living, changing world which you explored and interacted with.
Usually these arguments fall into the stupid hardcore v casual debate. But its more than that. New players to mmorpg's these days come from a console background and the ideas expressed in games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call are totally foreign to them. Stephen Hawking would have more chance of explaining quantum mechanics to a cavemen than to successfully explain what UO was about to someone who grew up playing Playstations and XBOX and Halo.
Say that when you are all decked in 277 gear and clear Lich King on hard mode. No noe has the right to say otherwise before that.
I think this it he impass that old timers vs new mmo players are locked into.
Most new MMO gamers (usually to WoW) bring with them their expectations of a single player rather than that of an mmorpg.
What nariusseldon is essentially saying in his post that the only important part of WoW is the latest raid, in this case Icecrown Citadel, and that everything before that is unimportant. Now thats a very single player mentality where you have to "beat the game". When you start playing a single player game you start at the beginning and build up to the last stage/level and beat the bad guy. Game over.
While WoW's hardmodes are challenging they only represent a tiny percentage of the game and a part of the game that is totally and utterly optional. You do NOT have to complete any hardmore in WoW to progress.
As many people have pointed out early mmorpg's werent about beating the end boss and getting the best gear but that an mmorpg was about a living, changing world which you explored and interacted with.
Usually these arguments fall into the stupid hardcore v casual debate. But its more than that. New players to mmorpg's these days come from a console background and the ideas expressed in games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call are totally foreign to them. Stephen Hawking would have more chance of explaining quantum mechanics to a cavemen than to successfully explain what UO was about to someone who grew up playing Playstations and XBOX and Halo.
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time.
Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
The "back in our day" crowd is pining for core design elements from the early games, not their clunky graphics and awkward interfaces, which dectractors often wrongfully accuse us of wanting to return to.
Core design elements such as 3-way Realm-vs-Realm gameplay (which arguably might have saved Warhammer). Elements such as a stinging death penalty (which reduces players "dying on purpose" just to respawn at a more convenient location). Or wandering over-conned mobs which keep folks on their toes in zones. Public dungeons; instance the boss only if you have to instance something, or have the boss spawn in random areas.
There are plenty of elements in past games that should be brought to the present and implemented. Match this stuff up with today's streamlined graphics and intuitive interfaces, and we could have great MMO's once again.
What were expiriencing is the need for more, getting used to a game is giving up, all of those who keep ranting in these forums are the ones who fight for something better, I am also confident that many people like us will one day try to make their MMO, these will not be perfect, but hopefully MMOs will steer towards the sandbox ways.
It is my ambition to make an MMO which is fun, inmmersive and player influenced.
These games will come...its just that we think the crap they are releasing right now are our games and we keep supporting these liars who feel no love or passion to what you adore. If you don't like MMOs, make one or do something else until the next guy stands up and says "I'll do it, what do you want?".
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time.
Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
The "back in our day" crowd is pining for core design elements from the early games, not their clunky graphics and awkward interfaces, which dectractors often wrongfully accuse us of wanting to return to.
Core design elements such as 3-way Realm-vs-Realm gameplay (which arguably might have saved Warhammer). Elements such as a stinging death penalty (which reduces players "dying on purpose" just to respawn at a more convenient location). Or wandering over-conned mobs which keep folks on their toes in zones. Public dungeons; instance the boss only if you have to instance something, or have the boss spawn in random areas.
There are plenty of elements in past games that should be brought to the present and implemented. Match this stuff up with today's streamlined graphics and intuitive interfaces, and we could have great MMO's once again.
I fall into the back in our day crowd and there are some elements that I would like to see more of. Mostly I would like to see more group based elements, but not public dungeons. There is far to much emphasis right now on solo gameplay and very little incentive to group gameplay. Hopefully that is just the apex of one shift and things will balance out as developers appeal to more people.
Public dungeons however can suck and for all the difficulty people talk about, that only existed when the dungeons were brand new and the first few people went there or there were to few people in the dungeon to interfere with your group (making them much like an instance to be honest). They typically devolve into nothing more than areas that are swarmed by masses of players that kill anything that spawns within 5 seconds. Running past group after group of people sitting in little safe spot pulling mobs to their camp in the hopes that some placeholder would spawn it not what I would call a good mechanic for a game. It was fun back in the day, but I for one have no real desire to go back to that. If public dungeons somehow scaled dynamically and/or had some sort of elements from public quests, that might be cool, but not like how things used to be.
Nor a stinging death penalty. I'm not sure what game offers death as a means of travel right now. I'm sure there are some, but none I play, unless the player wants to pay 25% of every single item in their inventory and a 10 minute stat debuff that removes them from combat. I would rather have combat that was more engaging with the modest penalty for losing than boring combat with a massive death penalty. Combat is either fun or it isn't. Risking massive lose doesn't make it any better. I do understand that some people enjoy the risk though.
I haven't read through the whole thread, but I want to address the original poster.
I am fully aware that games that I used to play don't measure up to games I play today technologically. I can never go back to DAOC, cause the interface feels too clunky and the game is just too dated. That being said, in terms of mechanics and community it was worlds better than anything I play today.
This is a natural phenomenon. We have a much larger population playing, therefore there is less frequent contact between specific individuals. Once upon a time everyone knew every person in their neighbourhood. Now, they are lucky if they know their immediate neighbours. Its a function of population size and changing societal norms. This is the same phenomenon we see in the games. Instead of small, tight knit communities... You have large groups of autonomous people and you have game companies building games that encourage people to do their own thing, rather than doing the community thing.
IMO this was the biggest downfall of warhammer, and mythic's biggest mistake. They did not take into account the changing social land-scape into which their game was being released. When we tried to arrange concerted action, everyone was too interested in getting the most damage, or the most kills, or whatever, rather than in doing the most to help their team dominate. This is also why the europeans hit all the major goals before the americas... Cause they are much better at working as a collective. When they get a raid going its a group of 24. When we get a raid going, its a collection of 24 individuals.
Talking about the good old days isn't just a matter of rose colored glasses. There are valid(and inevitable) changes which have affected the social climate of these games, and the development environment in which the games are build, and what was once will never come again... That doesn't stop us from hoping, however.
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time.
Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
The "back in our day" crowd is pining for core design elements from the early games, not their clunky graphics and awkward interfaces, which dectractors often wrongfully accuse us of wanting to return to.
Core design elements such as 3-way Realm-vs-Realm gameplay (which arguably might have saved Warhammer). Elements such as a stinging death penalty (which reduces players "dying on purpose" just to respawn at a more convenient location). Or wandering over-conned mobs which keep folks on their toes in zones. Public dungeons; instance the boss only if you have to instance something, or have the boss spawn in random areas.
There are plenty of elements in past games that should be brought to the present and implemented. Match this stuff up with today's streamlined graphics and intuitive interfaces, and we could have great MMO's once again.
You are absolutely right pencilrick (your name is an intended pun?). We aren't asking for the worst of our games, but the best.
I think I mentioned this in a different thread but I miss that feeling I had in Asheron's Call when I bought my first house. It was so difficult in that I'd have to camp the new houses in the new neighborhood that was implemented for that patch on that particular month. I camped for two full day and night cycles (48 IRL HOURS). I gave a friend of mine my cell phone number and had to sleep as I was really tired. One hour after I fell asleep, my friend called me and I ran to get the required random materials for the house. I already had the Writ and the money, but I didn't know what random item they were going to ask of me to put as an additional payment for the house. I really don't care about houses in general in videogames but that moment he called I felt so happy, I felt ecstatic.
It was positive reinforcement, I am sure. All those hours meant something and when he called me I realized how important it was for us to camp.
Little things like that really made those games of my day shine. Now houses are instanced, and more comparable to a condiment on a hotdog, than a feature of the hot dog itself.
Remember when there was world pvp in WoW? Battles of hundreds of tauren running around vs those despicable night elves we hated so much? In front of Orgrimmar or Lordaeron?
How bout PRE-NGE SWG? Remember how we speculated over and over on what made someone become a jedi? How being a Jedi was so unattainable and so revered?
Those are just a few of the memories I am so fond of. I remember when the marketplace wasn't the capitol of a faction. I remember when Developers used to come from the sky as titans or monsters and wreck havoc to our cities. I remember when I used to play games not for their graphics, but because I was truly addicted to every aspect of that game. Where are these games today? Where is the genre of MMORPG as we know it and came to love?
Yet we are being insulted, or branded as losers in an industry we helped create? I will not stand for such prejudice and inequality! We are the founding fathers of this genre!
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__________________________________________________________________________________________ "Your pride, good sir, far exceeds your worth." -x3r0h
Oldest mmorpg.com member with the least amount of post counts. That counts for something, right?
You people are just getting old. Get used to it, it won't get any better with time.
Yes, i am talking to most of the forum reads. We all have a soft spot for our first MMO, as it was pointed out in the recent article but sometimes too far is too far.
The growth of such a group in the gaming population is actually quite an interesting phenomenon. It creates some nice stratification, which IMHO is pretty entertaining to watch since till now gamers were regarded as hardcore or casual. Now we have the elderly ladie... i mean "veterans" too.
The problem is, just like your grandparents, you are not comparing the past (MMOs) with the present. We are comparing what we though the past MMOs were and what we remember of them. An idealised image. And let me tell you two things.. past MMOs, even the western ones were complex because they were not functional, and even if you did not notice it, they had grind as bad as the current "Korean".
There is a reason why I don't play Anarchy Online. I still compare modern games to it, but they ARE better then AO *sad face*. Still, nowhere near as good as my fondest memories of the days when I started...
SF
Sorry newbie, but no. I've been gaming since the 80's, so when I started playing UO, it was hardly my first game. UO had plenty of flaws back in the day, but it was leagues better than today's MMO's. It had great player housing for example, most MMO's still can't offer that! Good crafting, and a decent, player run economy systems too. Those things are also rareties in todays MMO's.
Hell, it's maybe the best computer game I've ever played. Sorry you missed it.
Heck, I can't name a single new MMO that is better than even AO.
I fall into the back in our day crowd and there are some elements that I would like to see more of. Mostly I would like to see more group based elements, but not public dungeons. There is far to much emphasis right now on solo gameplay and very little incentive to group gameplay. Hopefully that is just the apex of one shift and things will balance out as developers appeal to more people.
Public dungeons however can suck and for all the difficulty people talk about, that only existed when the dungeons were brand new and the first few people went there or there were to few people in the dungeon to interfere with your group (making them much like an instance to be honest). They typically devolve into nothing more than areas that are swarmed by masses of players that kill anything that spawns within 5 seconds. Running past group after group of people sitting in little safe spot pulling mobs to their camp in the hopes that some placeholder would spawn it not what I would call a good mechanic for a game. It was fun back in the day, but I for one have no real desire to go back to that. If public dungeons somehow scaled dynamically and/or had some sort of elements from public quests, that might be cool, but not like how things used to be.
Nor a stinging death penalty. I'm not sure what game offers death as a means of travel right now. I'm sure there are some, but none I play, unless the player wants to pay 25% of every single item in their inventory and a 10 minute stat debuff that removes them from combat. I would rather have combat that was more engaging with the modest penalty for losing than boring combat with a massive death penalty. Combat is either fun or it isn't. Risking massive lose doesn't make it any better. I do understand that some people enjoy the risk though.
Us "old timers" are definately not marching in lockstep with each other. Hell, I was one of the first mmorpg players to have the insults thrown at me that I was "casual" and I "don't want to work for anything" and so on because I hated raiding. Now I have people calling me an ultra-hardcore, no-lifer and other wonderfull things like that because I want more of a grouping focus and death penalty and I hate quest grinding and instancing.
Isn't that bizzarre? I used to be the casual guy fighting my lonely battle (it sure felt lonely at the time) against the crazed, hardcore, "elites" and now I'm lumped in with them.
Let's compare us two "old timers".
You want more grouping. So do I.
You don't want public dungeons. I do. I can mostly agree with what you said about the way public dungeons were but for all their imperfections they had one thing going for them, other people. The other people caused problems but they also brought the game to life and I really miss that. You offered some suggestions for improving public dungeons and that's the thing that is usually lacking these days. Instead of trying to improve on non-instanced, public content the developers take the easy way out and use instancing. The very concept of creating a persistant world has been all but abandoned these days because it's so much easier to give people their own little pocket universes to play in than it is to resolve the problems of shared content.
You don't want a stinging death penalty. I do. I simply believe that it adds more to the fun than it detracts. I don't want perma-death and I don't want to be stuck sitting on my ass for fifteen minutes waiting for a debuff to wear off but I want it to hurt when I die so that death means something and avoiding death means something.
For these reasons I, who was once classified as a whiney casual, am now classified as a hardcore masochist. What the hell happened?
Then WoW came out. WoW took what EQ started, streamlined it and released a game that offered the more casual crowd their chance at doing what others could with less of a daily time investment. It wasnt a bad idea, in fact it was a great idea. It brought a new wave of people into the genre. The problem is all the dev companies decided that this sort of game is what everyone wants. Sadly the rest of us are left with games that feel too easy or shallow (not that a game has to be OMFG hard, but a little challenge - a little risk would be welcome. After all, whats the point in getting a reward for no effort?). For everything WoW offers it still feels small, lifeless and as though something is missing.
With no effort???
Say that when you are all decked in 277 gear and clear Lich King on hard mode. No noe has the right to say otherwise before that.
See thats the problem right there.
Waiting for the game to offer a challenge is not the same as a game having challenge to it. I dont feel like wading through weeks/months of unchallenging gameplay before I get to stuff that might actually require thinking.
As for no one having a right to say otherwise before having '277 gear and clearing LK on hardmode' thats where a lot of WoW players are wrong. Why should I have to wait untill the next gear set/content push before I decide the game isnt challenging? Thats like saying "Wait 10 to 15 years before you have the right to say Lima Beans suck..."
It just doesnt make sense. When a game lets you play through it while wearing a blindfold and half asleep for 90% of it with only the last 5-10% being of any challenge, I dont feel I should have to wait till then to decide the game is 'meh'.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Old timers want leveling content to be has hard and frustrating as walking into a raid dungeon blind (no guides). And I guess thats why they still dont have a game. cause no company is going to cater to those bullshit mechanics anymore. besides, most current mmo mechanics are just shit that old timers complained about, fixed. and now they complain a bit more.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Old timers want leveling content to be has hard and frustrating as walking into a raid dungeon blind (no guides). And I guess thats why they still dont have a game. cause no company is going to cater to those bullshit mechanics anymore. besides, most current mmo mechanics are just shit that old timers complained about, fixed. and now they complain a bit more.
That's not true at all.
It's all about balance and making community the main focus of a game.
When you have a mmo game world that lets you kill 6-8 mobs at once and clear every bit of content by yourself you kill a community. You play Ryzom so im surprised you would say such a thing honestly. That game has perfect balance when it comes to a mmo game world.
It's accessible solo but at the same time the benefits of teaming with players on your server are so good everyone wants to team. In WoW i'll grab a character and never have to talk to anyone until level cap, I need no help killing a rare mob, doing a hard quest nothing!
That's not what I asked for.
Sure there are some crazy old school players that hate on things like minimaps, quest markers and other things that make a mmo less annoying but noone listens to those crazy bastards.
I think a group focused leveling experience that is also accessible to soloers isn't too much to ask.
Old timers want leveling content to be has hard and frustrating as walking into a raid dungeon blind (no guides). And I guess thats why they still dont have a game. cause no company is going to cater to those bullshit mechanics anymore. besides, most current mmo mechanics are just shit that old timers complained about, fixed. and now they complain a bit more.
That's not true at all.
It's all about balance and making community the main focus of a game.
When you have a mmo game world that lets you kill 6-8 mobs at once and clear every bit of content by yourself you kill a community. You play Ryzom so im surprised you would say such a thing honestly. That game has perfect balance when it comes to a mmo game world.
It's accessible solo but at the same time the benefits of teaming with players on your server are so good everyone wants to team. In WoW i'll grab a character and never have to talk to anyone until level cap, I need no help killing a rare mob, doing a hard quest nothing!
That's not what I asked for.
Sure there are some crazy old school players that hate on things like minimaps, quest markers and other things that make a mmo less annoying but noone listens to those crazy bastards.
I think a group focused leveling experience that is also accessible to soloers isn't too much to ask.
So you need to be coddled in order to talk to someone? You need the game to FORCE YOU to be social? You can make leveling up in WOW a lot harder by only killing reds by the way. You need the game to tell you that? You couldn't figure that out or because you can kill greens, you'll do that because its easier? Dungeons can't be soloed while leveling up. They're still difficult when played at the appropriate levels WITHOUT following guides. Playing WOW is like playing with difficulty settings. You can play on easy by soloing green mobs or you can play on hard by killing high con mobs and doing all the dungeons when you're SUPPOSED to. Is Dragon Age an easy game because you can play on easy or is it hard if you play on Hardest? Its your choice. If you need a game to FORCE the difficulty on you in order to motivate yourself, are you REALLY looking for a hard game in the first place? Doubt it. Choice is good. Accessibility is GOOD...for rational people=)
Sorry newbie, but no. I've been gaming since the 80's, so when I started playing UO, it was hardly my first game. UO had plenty of flaws back in the day, but it was leagues better than today's MMO's. It had great player housing for example, most MMO's still can't offer that! Good crafting, and a decent, player run economy systems too. Those things are also rareties in todays MMO's.
That makes me LAUGH. I started with UO beta and jumped ship the day EQ came out.
You think clicking on a stone to mine 1000000 times is good crafting? hahhahahah.
And their player housing resulted into ghettos.
And we haven't even get to the uncontrollable PK part, or the 90% people a tank mage part.
It is not a very fun game. That is why it is eclipsed by EQ and WOW big time.
One often overlooked aspect of Ye Olde Games was the player demographic. Back in the day the gaming community was different. The gamers were more likely to be the affluent, the educated, and the technophiles. Now everyone and their whole family own PC's capable of running MMOG's.
Another difference related to the player demographic was the effect of having fewer MMOG's available to players. This forced more player types into fewer games. There was no Second Life or Farmville for the socializers. There were no WoW raids for the achievers. There was no Mythic RvR for the killers. Everyone was in one place and the social interactions were more meaningful because of it.
Even a well produced UO2 would probably be a niche in today's market. Nothing will change that. One thing is for sure though, those who missed the early days of UO and EQ will never see the like again. Nothing will be the same again because it can't be the same again. This has nothing to do with nostalgia or fond memories, but it has everything to do with the changes that have come about because of broadband proliferation, increasing technology, and improved accessibility.
Comments
Yes I was being sarcastic. To add to this conversation, I don't think I need to argue why new gamers are ruining this genre lol. I just need to point everyone to this thread. There is a clear cut line between the generation of handouts, where everyone wins, and the generation where onlyh people who put effort into it win.
This is not a generational gap just in game. Kids and young adults in general were pampered as kids. Feed with a silver spoon, handed life on a platter. Most of the older gamers I know didn't. I'm sure the generation before us said the same things about us, however we invented games. We invented this genre. You can say all you want, but without us there wouldn't be a genre.
I for one am ok with the genre degenerating for the masses. I just want at least one developer with half a brain to make a game for the minority. Not sandbox, not pvp, what the genre was originally about, fantasy and adventure and a sense of community and coming together.
The analogy I'll use is woodstock then and how it was in the 90's. I don't think anyone argues the older of the two was better in both quality and meaning.
The casuals of today will be complaining once they figure out that they can make even more money buy just making a log in and a congratulations for being able to do that. It's all relative. Where is the bell curve where the amount of retards coming in for making something easier doesn't exceed the retards they already have? This is when we can stop seeing degeneration of the genre. Till then we will keep making things less immersive, less interactive, more shallow, and overall easier.
What my problem with WoW was, it wasn't challenging enough in the beginning. Quests I could do by my self pretty easy, every dungeon run I did, we all completed without a wipe. It just got borring to me by the time I got to 50, so I really can't say how much effort you put into Endgame. Yes I'm sure its not as easy as everyone makes it out to be, but there are games that make WoW look like a walk in the park.
Like FFXI, to actually get your own Chocobo not just rent one, you have to get an egg when it hatches you have to feed it, play with it, take it for walks and this takes a month Earth Time before you can even ride the thing. Thats just one of the many things in that game that IMO makes WoW seem so easy. I haven't even done any FFXI endgame yet so I really can't compare each at all since I've done neither. But If its anything like the rest of the game, it just might make WoW look easy as pie as well.
More is not always better and the "more" that EQ2 typically crams into the game usually results in producing less. Such as the entire class systems that desperatly trys to produce distinct classes and at the same time generalize them into common utility roles. The end result is a system the has taught veteran players to warn new players away from a good chunk of classes that just underperform and give little incentive to include in activities.
The same thing pretty much applies to most of EQ2 better features. They have their own benefit, but at the same time ruin/harm some other portion of the game.
Crafting is more involved, but it diminishes pve content by selling the best get for 79/80 levels. House/guild hall interiors are nice, but they have made the common areas of the world look like ghost towns.
EQ2 is the little game that could and should, but continues to shoot itself in the foot. It could be a great game and should be a great game, but the developers don't listen, care and/or understand.
That Chocobo thing seems extremely easy. What is so hard about it? Where is the intellectual challenge in this?
Figuring out what foods your choco likes, keeping its spirits high, curing illness and injuries. There are other things if you feel like reading http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Chocobo_Raising_Guide . While it may not be totally Intellectually challenging, it is time consuming and is more difficult to obtain compared to WoW's all I have to do is have money and I get a mount way of doing things.
Edit: Also I seem to see that people don't consider time consuming things difficult but to me they are, just in a different way. It also tests your patience as well as endurance just like an Intellectual challenge can test your patience and other things. Look at 24 Hours of Le Mans It not an easy feat to complete that race and is a time consuming.
After reading that guide I definetly consider that activity intellectually challenging because of the many factors needed to do it properly and the fact that proper attention to detail will give you better results. However, the time span of it seems ridiculously long and unnecessary. Plus, if I cannot log in for a few days, do I lose all my progress from the previous months?
The LeMans race is an endurance challenge which really do not belong in video games.
Why? Like the quoted poster said, endurance is just another form of challenge.
I don't think these things are necessarily time-consuming, but I do agree they are somewhat intellectually challenging. These things you need to know (chocobo taste, spirit, illness, injury, etc.) are all things that signify responsibility. Responsibility is an intellectual challenge itself, not necessarily hard, but required and it may or may no be time-consuming. I think thats what these techniques are meant to be emulated in this video game.
The idea is that responsibility will lead to a more realistic and/or interactive experience with the game and your character. If you want to talk about time-consuming, consider grinding either for gold, level, or faction. This is what I believe to be truly time-consuming, and lacking in the requirement of intellectual challenge.
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"Your pride, good sir, far exceeds your worth." -x3r0h
Oldest mmorpg.com member with the least amount of post counts. That counts for something, right?
I guess its matter of opinion that is seems ridiculously long and unnecessary. I don't mind it at all, just like that boss in FFXI that people tried to kill for 18 hours and still failed. I think more games should put more endurance challenges in them. I don't know what exactly would happen if you missed a day because I didn't. But I don't think the choco would die, maybe it just goes by the actual times you visit. Like say you can only visit 3 times a week since you can only play the weekends it would take 10 weeks to be able to ride it.
Just checked my inbox. It was in my spam folder.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I think this it he impass that old timers vs new mmo players are locked into.
Most new MMO gamers (usually to WoW) bring with them their expectations of a single player rather than that of an mmorpg.
What nariusseldon is essentially saying in his post that the only important part of WoW is the latest raid, in this case Icecrown Citadel, and that everything before that is unimportant. Now thats a very single player mentality where you have to "beat the game". When you start playing a single player game you start at the beginning and build up to the last stage/level and beat the bad guy. Game over.
While WoW's hardmodes are challenging they only represent a tiny percentage of the game and a part of the game that is totally and utterly optional. You do NOT have to complete any hardmore in WoW to progress.
As many people have pointed out early mmorpg's werent about beating the end boss and getting the best gear but that an mmorpg was about a living, changing world which you explored and interacted with.
Usually these arguments fall into the stupid hardcore v casual debate. But its more than that. New players to mmorpg's these days come from a console background and the ideas expressed in games like Ultima Online and Asheron's Call are totally foreign to them. Stephen Hawking would have more chance of explaining quantum mechanics to a cavemen than to successfully explain what UO was about to someone who grew up playing Playstations and XBOX and Halo.
Totally agree.
The "back in our day" crowd is pining for core design elements from the early games, not their clunky graphics and awkward interfaces, which dectractors often wrongfully accuse us of wanting to return to.
Core design elements such as 3-way Realm-vs-Realm gameplay (which arguably might have saved Warhammer). Elements such as a stinging death penalty (which reduces players "dying on purpose" just to respawn at a more convenient location). Or wandering over-conned mobs which keep folks on their toes in zones. Public dungeons; instance the boss only if you have to instance something, or have the boss spawn in random areas.
There are plenty of elements in past games that should be brought to the present and implemented. Match this stuff up with today's streamlined graphics and intuitive interfaces, and we could have great MMO's once again.
What were expiriencing is the need for more, getting used to a game is giving up, all of those who keep ranting in these forums are the ones who fight for something better, I am also confident that many people like us will one day try to make their MMO, these will not be perfect, but hopefully MMOs will steer towards the sandbox ways.
It is my ambition to make an MMO which is fun, inmmersive and player influenced.
These games will come...its just that we think the crap they are releasing right now are our games and we keep supporting these liars who feel no love or passion to what you adore. If you don't like MMOs, make one or do something else until the next guy stands up and says "I'll do it, what do you want?".
I fall into the back in our day crowd and there are some elements that I would like to see more of. Mostly I would like to see more group based elements, but not public dungeons. There is far to much emphasis right now on solo gameplay and very little incentive to group gameplay. Hopefully that is just the apex of one shift and things will balance out as developers appeal to more people.
Public dungeons however can suck and for all the difficulty people talk about, that only existed when the dungeons were brand new and the first few people went there or there were to few people in the dungeon to interfere with your group (making them much like an instance to be honest). They typically devolve into nothing more than areas that are swarmed by masses of players that kill anything that spawns within 5 seconds. Running past group after group of people sitting in little safe spot pulling mobs to their camp in the hopes that some placeholder would spawn it not what I would call a good mechanic for a game. It was fun back in the day, but I for one have no real desire to go back to that. If public dungeons somehow scaled dynamically and/or had some sort of elements from public quests, that might be cool, but not like how things used to be.
Nor a stinging death penalty. I'm not sure what game offers death as a means of travel right now. I'm sure there are some, but none I play, unless the player wants to pay 25% of every single item in their inventory and a 10 minute stat debuff that removes them from combat. I would rather have combat that was more engaging with the modest penalty for losing than boring combat with a massive death penalty. Combat is either fun or it isn't. Risking massive lose doesn't make it any better. I do understand that some people enjoy the risk though.
I haven't read through the whole thread, but I want to address the original poster.
I am fully aware that games that I used to play don't measure up to games I play today technologically. I can never go back to DAOC, cause the interface feels too clunky and the game is just too dated. That being said, in terms of mechanics and community it was worlds better than anything I play today.
This is a natural phenomenon. We have a much larger population playing, therefore there is less frequent contact between specific individuals. Once upon a time everyone knew every person in their neighbourhood. Now, they are lucky if they know their immediate neighbours. Its a function of population size and changing societal norms. This is the same phenomenon we see in the games. Instead of small, tight knit communities... You have large groups of autonomous people and you have game companies building games that encourage people to do their own thing, rather than doing the community thing.
IMO this was the biggest downfall of warhammer, and mythic's biggest mistake. They did not take into account the changing social land-scape into which their game was being released. When we tried to arrange concerted action, everyone was too interested in getting the most damage, or the most kills, or whatever, rather than in doing the most to help their team dominate. This is also why the europeans hit all the major goals before the americas... Cause they are much better at working as a collective. When they get a raid going its a group of 24. When we get a raid going, its a collection of 24 individuals.
Talking about the good old days isn't just a matter of rose colored glasses. There are valid(and inevitable) changes which have affected the social climate of these games, and the development environment in which the games are build, and what was once will never come again... That doesn't stop us from hoping, however.
You are absolutely right pencilrick (your name is an intended pun?). We aren't asking for the worst of our games, but the best.
I think I mentioned this in a different thread but I miss that feeling I had in Asheron's Call when I bought my first house. It was so difficult in that I'd have to camp the new houses in the new neighborhood that was implemented for that patch on that particular month. I camped for two full day and night cycles (48 IRL HOURS). I gave a friend of mine my cell phone number and had to sleep as I was really tired. One hour after I fell asleep, my friend called me and I ran to get the required random materials for the house. I already had the Writ and the money, but I didn't know what random item they were going to ask of me to put as an additional payment for the house. I really don't care about houses in general in videogames but that moment he called I felt so happy, I felt ecstatic.
It was positive reinforcement, I am sure. All those hours meant something and when he called me I realized how important it was for us to camp.
Little things like that really made those games of my day shine. Now houses are instanced, and more comparable to a condiment on a hotdog, than a feature of the hot dog itself.
Remember when there was world pvp in WoW? Battles of hundreds of tauren running around vs those despicable night elves we hated so much? In front of Orgrimmar or Lordaeron?
How bout PRE-NGE SWG? Remember how we speculated over and over on what made someone become a jedi? How being a Jedi was so unattainable and so revered?
Those are just a few of the memories I am so fond of. I remember when the marketplace wasn't the capitol of a faction. I remember when Developers used to come from the sky as titans or monsters and wreck havoc to our cities. I remember when I used to play games not for their graphics, but because I was truly addicted to every aspect of that game. Where are these games today? Where is the genre of MMORPG as we know it and came to love?
Yet we are being insulted, or branded as losers in an industry we helped create? I will not stand for such prejudice and inequality! We are the founding fathers of this genre!
EDIT:::::GRAMMAR::::::::
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"Your pride, good sir, far exceeds your worth." -x3r0h
Oldest mmorpg.com member with the least amount of post counts. That counts for something, right?
Sorry newbie, but no. I've been gaming since the 80's, so when I started playing UO, it was hardly my first game. UO had plenty of flaws back in the day, but it was leagues better than today's MMO's. It had great player housing for example, most MMO's still can't offer that! Good crafting, and a decent, player run economy systems too. Those things are also rareties in todays MMO's.
Hell, it's maybe the best computer game I've ever played. Sorry you missed it.
Heck, I can't name a single new MMO that is better than even AO.
Us "old timers" are definately not marching in lockstep with each other. Hell, I was one of the first mmorpg players to have the insults thrown at me that I was "casual" and I "don't want to work for anything" and so on because I hated raiding. Now I have people calling me an ultra-hardcore, no-lifer and other wonderfull things like that because I want more of a grouping focus and death penalty and I hate quest grinding and instancing.
Isn't that bizzarre? I used to be the casual guy fighting my lonely battle (it sure felt lonely at the time) against the crazed, hardcore, "elites" and now I'm lumped in with them.
Let's compare us two "old timers".
You want more grouping. So do I.
You don't want public dungeons. I do. I can mostly agree with what you said about the way public dungeons were but for all their imperfections they had one thing going for them, other people. The other people caused problems but they also brought the game to life and I really miss that. You offered some suggestions for improving public dungeons and that's the thing that is usually lacking these days. Instead of trying to improve on non-instanced, public content the developers take the easy way out and use instancing. The very concept of creating a persistant world has been all but abandoned these days because it's so much easier to give people their own little pocket universes to play in than it is to resolve the problems of shared content.
You don't want a stinging death penalty. I do. I simply believe that it adds more to the fun than it detracts. I don't want perma-death and I don't want to be stuck sitting on my ass for fifteen minutes waiting for a debuff to wear off but I want it to hurt when I die so that death means something and avoiding death means something.
For these reasons I, who was once classified as a whiney casual, am now classified as a hardcore masochist. What the hell happened?
See thats the problem right there.
Waiting for the game to offer a challenge is not the same as a game having challenge to it. I dont feel like wading through weeks/months of unchallenging gameplay before I get to stuff that might actually require thinking.
As for no one having a right to say otherwise before having '277 gear and clearing LK on hardmode' thats where a lot of WoW players are wrong. Why should I have to wait untill the next gear set/content push before I decide the game isnt challenging? Thats like saying "Wait 10 to 15 years before you have the right to say Lima Beans suck..."
It just doesnt make sense. When a game lets you play through it while wearing a blindfold and half asleep for 90% of it with only the last 5-10% being of any challenge, I dont feel I should have to wait till then to decide the game is 'meh'.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Old timers want leveling content to be has hard and frustrating as walking into a raid dungeon blind (no guides). And I guess thats why they still dont have a game. cause no company is going to cater to those bullshit mechanics anymore. besides, most current mmo mechanics are just shit that old timers complained about, fixed. and now they complain a bit more.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
That's not true at all.
It's all about balance and making community the main focus of a game.
When you have a mmo game world that lets you kill 6-8 mobs at once and clear every bit of content by yourself you kill a community. You play Ryzom so im surprised you would say such a thing honestly. That game has perfect balance when it comes to a mmo game world.
It's accessible solo but at the same time the benefits of teaming with players on your server are so good everyone wants to team. In WoW i'll grab a character and never have to talk to anyone until level cap, I need no help killing a rare mob, doing a hard quest nothing!
That's not what I asked for.
Sure there are some crazy old school players that hate on things like minimaps, quest markers and other things that make a mmo less annoying but noone listens to those crazy bastards.
I think a group focused leveling experience that is also accessible to soloers isn't too much to ask.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
So you need to be coddled in order to talk to someone? You need the game to FORCE YOU to be social? You can make leveling up in WOW a lot harder by only killing reds by the way. You need the game to tell you that? You couldn't figure that out or because you can kill greens, you'll do that because its easier? Dungeons can't be soloed while leveling up. They're still difficult when played at the appropriate levels WITHOUT following guides. Playing WOW is like playing with difficulty settings. You can play on easy by soloing green mobs or you can play on hard by killing high con mobs and doing all the dungeons when you're SUPPOSED to. Is Dragon Age an easy game because you can play on easy or is it hard if you play on Hardest? Its your choice. If you need a game to FORCE the difficulty on you in order to motivate yourself, are you REALLY looking for a hard game in the first place? Doubt it. Choice is good. Accessibility is GOOD...for rational people=)
Sorry newbie, but no. I've been gaming since the 80's, so when I started playing UO, it was hardly my first game. UO had plenty of flaws back in the day, but it was leagues better than today's MMO's. It had great player housing for example, most MMO's still can't offer that! Good crafting, and a decent, player run economy systems too. Those things are also rareties in todays MMO's.
That makes me LAUGH. I started with UO beta and jumped ship the day EQ came out.
You think clicking on a stone to mine 1000000 times is good crafting? hahhahahah.
And their player housing resulted into ghettos.
And we haven't even get to the uncontrollable PK part, or the 90% people a tank mage part.
It is not a very fun game. That is why it is eclipsed by EQ and WOW big time.
One often overlooked aspect of Ye Olde Games was the player demographic. Back in the day the gaming community was different. The gamers were more likely to be the affluent, the educated, and the technophiles. Now everyone and their whole family own PC's capable of running MMOG's.
Another difference related to the player demographic was the effect of having fewer MMOG's available to players. This forced more player types into fewer games. There was no Second Life or Farmville for the socializers. There were no WoW raids for the achievers. There was no Mythic RvR for the killers. Everyone was in one place and the social interactions were more meaningful because of it.
Even a well produced UO2 would probably be a niche in today's market. Nothing will change that. One thing is for sure though, those who missed the early days of UO and EQ will never see the like again. Nothing will be the same again because it can't be the same again. This has nothing to do with nostalgia or fond memories, but it has everything to do with the changes that have come about because of broadband proliferation, increasing technology, and improved accessibility.