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(un) professional
osmunda
Member Posts: 1,087
This will probably fall on deaf ears, but...
"Professionalism" and "unprofessional" are being widely used on these forums as a sort of shorthand for whether or not the poster likes the way Starvault and it's emploees are behaving. Unfortunately, the term is so vague it becomes pretty meaningless when so widely used.
pro·fes·sion·al·ism
Pronunciation: -?fesh-n?-?li-z?m, -?fe-sh?-n?-?li-
Function: noun
Date: 1856
1 : the conduct, aims, or qualities that characterize or mark a profession or a professional person
2 : the following of a profession (as athletics) for gain or livelihood
Here are a couple examples from this thread (http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/272763/Starvault-CEO-If-you-dont-support-MO-it-could-be-the-end-sandbox-MMOs-Does-not-like-trolls-on-mmorpgcom-Will-not-use-carebear-publishers.html )
I'm drunk but I noticed a few spelling errors.... Not very professional!
How is misspelling in IRC in a foreign language unprofessional. I would understand if the person is a professional translator,. Otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that. Somehow, I suspect that the person posting this would do much worse if they tried to hold a conversation on IRC in Swedish.
That has nothing to do with professionalism, it is related to competecy/ability/skill. Unprofessional would be not to let anyone know about the delay.
You can do crappy job but still show yourself as professional.
It was my impression that professionalism required at least a basic level of competence, If my average golf score is 120 , then I am not a professional golfer. Ninety percent of the time when people say unprofessional, there is a better word they could use.
Comments
I like this post.. But you might as well try to tackle "your" and "your're" while you're at it.
I think when most people post about SV's lack of professionalism, it's the first definition they are calling into question. Nobody can doubt that SV are charging people money for this product, of which they receive a chunk, and therefore they are professional game developers.
However, if you were a professional golfer, you would be expected to act in a professional manner. This involves heavy practice to ensure you remain top of your game, and not badmouthing the opposition or swearing on live television.
To me, Starvault have shown an immature attitude from time to time which, to me, demonstrates their unprofessional attitude. Mocking other games, calling the people who leave their game as "noobs", sneering at "carebear" games. These actions would be excusable if they were an amateur mod team, but now that people have put their trust and money into Mortal Online, Starvault owe it to their customers to always provide a professional attitude.
I like this post.. But you might as well try to tackle "your" and "your're" while you're at it.
You had me looking for where I used the wrong one. I guess you're saying that pushing for precise descriptions is just as futile as straightening out the proper usage of "you're". Probably true, but it's usually easy to muddle past that one.
you may be right but why...should we care? I think if you're doing an organised and partially researched argument we should know what you're arguing for (or against).
You should care because alot of the criticism of Starvault boils down to "they're unprofessional" associated with specific examples that have widely varying relevence or accuracy. Even when the example can be debunked, the accusation of being unprofessional is still there and is impossible to prove or disprove because of it's lack of specificity. I guess my thesis would be that people need to be more spedific.
As an example, someone in that same thread stated it was unprofessional for them to not have an announcement about the game being schedule for release in the official forums. I pointed out that the announcement was on the main page under "recent news" which to my mind demonstrates that there is not a lack of communication. Lumping every criticism together under the umbrella of unprofessional gives some of those criticisms a veneer of accuracy that they don't deserve, by associating them with others that may be totally accurate. (i.e. It's fairly clear that Mats adopts a sarcastic tone when people are being critical of the game in a rude or unreasonable way, but it is of questionable relevence to his "professionalism"
Just to give an example, since I'm calling on other people to do so....
Mats beign sarcastic...
Boomer: what really goes on, it's actually rather boring most of the time, had more fun hanging out with ppl in vent laughing joking around than in game. Epic far from it, it's beta it's not suppose to be epic, and since nothing is here, there is no epic anything.
(cross's fingers for monday maybe something epic will show up who knows) But lets be honest the video didn't show the reality of the game it shows what could be the game. I think by showing that video the way they did will disappoint the new ppl who havne't tried this
Mats:Yes, you're right and I completely forgot; trailers are supposed to be "unbiased", just like the GT/You Tube comments always are. Next time we'll show 15 minutes of mining, the ore getting stolen, another 15 minutes of mining and then crafting a sword in pig iron. Then fight with said sword to show weapons in primitive materials crafted with 0 skill, used by people with 0 skill. But not until after reading 23 books in real-time. And then, the grand finale; a couple of jokes on vent, loosely tied to the game! I'm sure people will not only understand and like it, they will go "OMG! I've always waited for that game, it has so much ..potential!"
I remember Blizzard when they released their purely in-game captured trailer, where we got to follow a character speaking with deputy Willem, killing 65340285 boars, and hanging out in the Barrens chat. Oh, the nostalgia! Totally sold me the game!
----- and------
Numz: You seem to rage a lot after DF devs, I personnaly thanks them for giving birth to a successfull sandbox mmo in a themepark industry, even if the game has its flaws (many placeholders to fill today), there is no reason to call them stupid. I wouldn't even call a MO dev stupid even if they did only wrong choices about the project developpement (actually all the good choices were just copy/paste from UO). So keep your smile on your face if you like to live in your dreams, but, imo, you should expect to wake up in a wet bed with nothing more than hopes...
Mats: I'm sorry if you don't like the races, the attributes and skill system, the extraction system, the crafting system, the FPV-work, combat and controls, the world design and graphics design - as it appears you only think we got ..magic and flagging good.
Then again, I'm sure we will destroy magic for you as well, as what we have so far is only the basic combat magic school. That leaves flagging, which by the way isn't really finished. But it's always something, isn't it?
---and---
Numz: I wouldn't even call a MO dev stupid even if they did only wrong choices about the project developpement
Mats: Thank you for not calling me stupid, despite that I've made so many wrong choices according to the above.
Sarcasm can get in the way of proper communication, but it can also be an effective means of communication. Opinions may vary on whether he was being unprofessional, but he was definitely getting his point across effectively.
You missed compeltely one meaning of the word:
professional behavior
That is commonly used term with professionalism.
If you made an effort, made a bit more and look it up.
A professional golfer my act unprofessionally, and it has nothing to do with his golf score. Just ask Tiger Woods, and his former sponsors.
specifics.....
If you made an effort you could post a link demonstrating a definition of "professional behavior" and how they have violated it. The vagueness of the term is kind of my whole point.
unprofessional
Function: adjective
Meaning: lacking or showing a lack of expert skill
Applies to SV kiddies 100%.
At issue is his image (and advertisers desire to be associated with it), not his professionalism.
pzfaust:
unprofessional
Function: adjective
Meaning: lacking or showing a lack of expert skill
Applies to SV kiddies 100%.
Specifics? lack of what skill? As an example, using the term "kiddies" demonstrates your lack of desire to address this in a serious manner.
I assume you used Merriam-Webster dictionary so I just looked there:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional
1 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
There are enough threads on this forum providing IRC quotes and other sources to evaluate yourself how the speech goes alone with a description I have highlighted in bold.
One of the recent threads:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/272763/Starvault-CEO-If-you-dont-support-MO-it-could-be-the-end-sandbox-MMOs-Does-not-like-trolls-on-mmorpgcom-Will-not-use-carebear-publishers.html
You can go on and seek internet for more tips what professional behavior is and what not to get better picture how some other business people would handle the situation provided in quotes...
So...what point are you trying to make/prove? Are you trying to protect Starvault and am basically telling us to stop spouting nonsense?
Well, some proof you wanted for "unprofessional" behaviour:
"sad to see mmrogp.com aint doing much against it, looks bad for them as well spec when they troll their main site with shit"
Isn't exactly something I expect someone who represents a company to say.
The "mocking" of other games:
"...or there will continue to be themepark clones" doesn't sound really nice, not that bad, but could still be considered looking down on those games.
Want more examples?
At issue is his image (and advertisers desire to be associated with it), not his professionalism.
pzfaust:
unprofessional
Function: adjective
Meaning: lacking or showing a lack of expert skill
Applies to SV kiddies 100%.
Specifics? lack of what skill? As an example, using the term "kiddies" demonstrates your lack of desire to address this in a serious manner.
Heard to imagine someone who knows english doesn't know what unprofessional conduct is.
unprofessional [??npr??f???n?l]
adj
1. contrary to the accepted code of conduct of a profession
Selective memory much?
To me, being professional means acting in a manner expected from those who pay you to do what you do. Tiger Woods is paid millions of pounds a year in sponsorships for his golf, therefore in the interests of acting professional he should eat properly, sleep well and perform on the green to the best of his ability. Conversely, a janitor is paid to keep the place clean and tidy, therefore in the interests of acting professional he should keep the place as clean as possible and turn up to work on time and regularly. Starvault are being paid to produce Mortal Online, and therefore should do it to the best of their ability.
However, from what I can see, being professional isn't just about you personally. The people who pay you are demonstrating faith in you and therefore in a way you represent them too. Tiger Woods represents all the sponsors who sink money into him, the janitor represents the hotel/hospital/restaurant where they work as an employee, and Starvault represent all the people who have invested money into them.
Therefore, when they start acting unprofessionally, it's not just them who are implicated, it's the people who have put their faith in their ability to do the job who are called into question. So when SV start throwing childish insults around, knocking off for the weekend without caring about the servers in the meantime, and claiming their launch will be so much better than other games, it's not just them who are brought down but the people who pay them money to act in that way.
Guys.. 10 days left in March... which means within 10 days the game launches. At that point discussions about the meaning of the word "unprofessional" will be moot. The time for debate is over. The time for Mortal Online to sink or swim has arrived...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The industry is full of unprofessional behavior, it's no different than any other entertainment sector.
Is it any more professional, for the CEO's of companies to go around dogging the competition in interviews?
Is it any more professional to release unfinished games that are all but broken?
Is it any more professional to blame the fans as the reason your game wasn't successful?
This crap happens all the time, but here we are worried about what some amateur says on IRC.
TBH I don't see a problem with their behavior, I don't even see a problem with Derek Smart's. Sure it loses them customers, that's not my problem. If they don't care why should I?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Fair enough, although what will be determined is their level of success (or lack thereof)
Fair enough, although what will be determined is their level of success (or lack thereof)
Which is really all that matters... everything else is just fluff.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
circular definition (unless you can specify who/what defines the "accepted code of conduct)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_definition
unblue (adj) 1. contrary to the nature of being blue
See post #5 in this thread.
Henrik is representing StarVault on the IRC channel, he is the CEO of a corporation and he is publically discussing a product with customers. Treating this venue as an informal place to air personal opinions is unprofessional.
To understand why it is unprofessional, consider the distinction between "personal relationships" and "professional relationships." What kind of relationship should a CEO have with his customers, personal or professional?
The fans of MO seem happy that they have a semi-personal relationship with Henrik (maybe he doesn't know them each personally, but at least he behaves informally and shares his personal opinions ). Therefore, it is not a bad thing to have a personal relationship with customers instead of a professional one, but it is unprofessional.
Cryptic is trying a Customer Development approach to MMO creation.
It is not courtesy or conscientiousness or business like manner.
You need to perform well in all those fields to being recognized as proffesional behavior. This does not imply any standards, it represent valued attributes and any deviation is considered as unprofessionalism.
In short:
Being rude is unprofessional.
I already said you can search the interent for more specific examples and richer description if you do not understand the term.
Professionalism is no vague term, the fact you do not understand what it means or your perception is vastly different from general opinion is another story and as such does not mean much.
Can you tell me how IRC screenshot is putting something into someones mouth?
The degree of formality required is detemined by the setting and the profession. Saying "John" instead of "Your Honor" in a court room will cause a lot of trouble with the judge. Having casual Fridays at the office is informal but not unprofessional. Clearly expressing personal opinions runs the risk of offending those who disagree, but some people (even some who disagree with you) will prefer that to corporate PR with alot of meaningless platitudes.
I understand that "professionalism" is the summation of the qualities in the description given. Further, I understand that by deviating enough from any of those qualities can cause you to be unprofessional. I agree that being rude is unprofessional. I'm just saying that if you consider something rude, call it rude and then people can discuss whether it was rude or not instead of whether it was unprofessional.
Irc screenshots are not putting words into someones mouth. Paraphrasing their statements in your title that puts in perjorative terms that they didn't use (or didn't use as implied).
There are 2 instances documented where Starvault representatives clearly have been rude, which I will summarize shortly.
1) Downfall @ 05:15 : Have the developers actually got enough skill to...
Something I've been wondering about lately is if the developers at Star Vault actually got enough skill when it comes to programming and the like to make Mortal Online into a fully playable game with fully functional features?
I'm starting to wonder if they were just a bunch of guys that saw the potential money in the MMO-business and said "Hey, maybe we can make one as well?" and then ended up with a bit too much that they could handle. Sure, they've got a great vision of the game but you can't get very far with just that. To me, and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one, the game feels far from finished. Sloppy animations, some textures and UI are horrible and almost look like they're from the 90's, most of the features in-game are very buggy and broken, same goes for the patcher and the installer, massive lag etc. .........
So in conclusion, I got the feeling that because of the current state of Mortal Online, that will most likely stay until the release, combined with the possible lack of knowledge in programming amongst the developers this game will not get enough paying subscribers to be able to survive. I'm speculationg that the game will be shut down within a year.
Fanboyism aside, what's your truthful opinion? Think the developers got the knowledge and skill to steer this boat into the right direction to make Mortal Online survive and become a good playable game? Even though I love the idea of the game and want it to succeed, I've started to doubt it will ever happen. Hopefully I'm wrong.
And I know the story is cool, bro.
3 downfall quotes that I haven't posted
Downfall @ 7:37 Shouldn't take long now till it gets up, 07:38 AM here in Sweden.
Downfall@ 11:39 Fine, feel free to lock it. Seems like people here can't take hearing or discussing about any possible negative aspects of the game anyway. I believe that the things I wrote about in my original post can certainly be a possibility. If it turns out I'm right and the game goes down the shitter eventually, I'll return and have a sweet laugh about this.
4 downfall quotes that I haven't posted
St. judas @ ; 12:45
1. StarVault Ab has the skills to build the game.
2. StarVault Ab have stated what you get at launch, something you OP might not have read a single line about.
3. If it's lag your QQ'ing about then you have not a single clue what Open Beta means nor what Alpha means. Go back in time on how Mortal Online looked like in Alpha and then now what we have in Open Beta. But i guess you havent seen the world evolve like i have. You strut in here with your cocky attitude after seeing 2 weeks of a laggy and desynced OB and claim failure.
My question to you, is this: What other betas have you experienced where the servers have not taken a dive / drop into lag and desync issues?.
Thanks ,
StJudas, C.Admin.
Downfall 12:47 Of course. But noone could disagree with that this game has some serious flaws that needs correcting, right? I'm trying to figure out exactly why the game is in open beta in this state, and how much will it actually manage to improve.
St Judas 13:03 Fell asleep at the keyboard, OP?
Downfall @ ; 13:07 I'm not "crying" about the lag. The lag could be considered one of the smaller problems to be honest. And to answer your question; I've experienced a series of betas during the years and this is definitely one of the worse ones, not just taking lag into consideration. Rarely have I seen a game in a state like this in OPEN beta. Not trying to say the game is doomed for sure, but I fear for it. Of course I can respect that the company is a small one and it takes extra time and effort, but it can not be considered an excuse later on if you want a decent amount of players.
St Judas 13:13 Good avoidance skill in answering a question, dear OP. When you come back from your 'Farwell' message do so with an adult attitude and answer someones question.
Downfall 13:14 I answered your question well enough.
St Judas @13:20 Well then the debate is over then. You could not contribute of your wide knowlege of games with names of them so we could continue and see what backround you have and your validity in your claims that this game would be a failure.
All people who contributed into the debate, thanks for your time.
Have a good day.
StJudas,
C.Admin
St Judas responded poorly to what I would consider a trolling thread. 2 days later St Judas resigns as volunteer community administrator. Not sure what more you would call for as a response to rude behavior.
St judas :
Thanks,
it's about time and i wasnt that proud on the last post i made tbh. So im sorry i made it but the reason is more or less im burnt out. I hope the guy can forgive me. Anyway have a good game all.
-StJudas
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