A menu? Like some sort of drop down crap? Whose crazy idea was that?
There's a menu, and then there are macros... which are like your normal hotbars. The menus try to imitate the normal Final Fantasy UI, but it's not the only way to do things. And, if there's some skills or spells that are not in your hotbar, it's much easier to choose them from an easily accessible menu than go through all kind of hurdles to put them into the hotbar.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
As far as speed of combat,one person got it partially right,they do have to allow for action/reaction using menus.Remove the reaction process and you have a mind numbing speedy dumb game play,i would hope people like to think a litle bit if even to use an iq of 30-50.There are other factors as well,as you get longer into the game,players expect better equipment,so you don't just start a game as a noob swinging 500 mph swings.They also try to create some realism like bigger/heavier weapons take longer delays.If you shorten delays and make delay a non factor,then everyone will not have weapon choice they will just outright pick the weapon with most damage,again that removes any thinking or versatility.
If you have not seen a fully equipped Haste player/ninja then i guess i can see why you don't unerstand how Square thinks out an entire game design,they don't just throw it together.I will spill it out,that Ninja fully decked out for speed,swings unrealsitically fast and non stop,you would not be talking about slow game play,once you see it live.NINJA FFXI.More speed combat
Thing is you have to earn your way to that ability,this is not some cheap Korean game,where they develope every player with the same blinding speed animations from level 1 and just paste a weapon onto them.
I personally thought FFXI was/is the best PVE combat design i have ever seen and i do not see anything for a long time ever coming close to it.I am actually afraid that FFXIV wil lbe too much like FXIII,i don't much like that combat style at all.
As far as the video that everyone seen,i highly doubt that is accurate at all,even in FFXI there was a better hitbox system,in that video we saw player standing inside the mob,looked awful,you can bet it will be a ton better than that pre Alpha video.
I am curious as to what the OP figures combat should look and play like that equates to high end ?Faster does not equal high end,this is not a sports car race.High End to me means better animations,better graphics,and more effort put into everything ,rather than vanilla game copying that i see most developers doing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I don't understand why you had to use such extreme examples to prove your point? Both of those situations are very unlikely to happen in normal gameplay. Something more realistic would have sufficed, now it just looks like you picked 2 examples that do not represent the normal gameplay whatsoever.
The combat speed at level cap is quite enough to keep you occupied enough, at least when not just exping or doing similar grindish task. But it could scale better, too, while you get to the cap. It's very slow at start and fast at the end.. it could be faster too at the lower level, when you don't even have many skills at your disposal in the first place. I hope XIV can balance that factor better than XI, but from the looks of it, that should be the case. Players can interact more with the game right from the start, not at the end.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
It's very simple - combat has to be slow to compensate for gamepads (at least in FF11 it was, because you could still use gamepad in PC version of the game) and their lack of hotkeys... although it does look like FF14 is actually going to have greatly different UI for PC version, with action bar and all. Seriously, can you even imagine a fair match in, let's say, WoW between a skilled players who knows his hotkeys and a gamepad user? That would be one quick match.
Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
It's very simple - combat has to be slow to compensate for gamepads (at least in FF11 it was, because you could still use gamepad in PC version of the game) and their lack of hotkeys... although it does look like FF14 is actually going to have greatly different UI for PC version, with action bar and all. Seriously, can you even imagine a fair match in, let's say, WoW between a skilled players who knows his hotkeys and a gamepad user? That would be one quick match.
That has nothing to do with battle speed. If the combat is designed for gamepads, it doesn't mean it has to be slow- good example being FFXIII.
The more number of buttons you need to press does not equal faster combat.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Well if we look at this as compared to real life WoW has a closer semblance to it as in life actions are usually instant in combat and the time you have to react to them short depending on who and how your fighting so you have to think on your feet and respond as fast as you can, but in WoWs case it is a bit faster paced than that considering how fast your actions are as opposed to real life. Where i feel FFXI at least gave you too much time to respond, as both player and npc actions where base on a timing scale or at least thats how it felt for me. I feel a good combat system could find a balance between the two styles where you have to have on your feet strategy but it does't move a million miles an hour. Granted some people like a slow paced game while others like a fast one, I on the other hand would prefer more balance, though such a combat system would be hard to emulate as the the lines and views between to fast and too slow are unclear and very perspective based, but if anyone can do it would be SE and their combined year or experience the RPG field. That and as time has shown SE is always changing their combat system in their games using elements of older ones to make their new one, so i am sure their going to put some FFXI elements in FFXIV as well as add some of new ones and maybe some elements of FFXIII as well, one thing is for sure it will be different and they we the players will have to decide if we like it or not.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
^ lol. Well in "real life" i cant cast magic, swing oversized swords, or battle giant creatures, so lets leave the "compared to RL" bit out of it......unless you can cast magic?
was only using it as a base to set an idea of the preceptions of combat and speed not as saying the game should be more like real life, learn to read beyond just text.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Yes it's not an action game, it's an RPG. RPGs are like that, slow. It serves its purpose well cause you have the opportunity to think your next move. Additionally in MMORPGs specifically it gives you the time needed in order to chat with your group and coordinate your actions according to what the rest members of the team are going to do. Or even if that is not the cause it gives you some time for some meaningless chit-chat :P
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Yes it's not an action game, it's an RPG. RPGs are like that, slow. It serves its purpose well cause you have the opportunity to think your next move. Additionally in MMORPGs specifically it gives you the time needed in order to chat with your group and coordinate your actions according to what the rest members of the team are going to do. Or even if that is not the cause it gives you some time for some meaningless chit-chat :P
OMG I hope people are not going to be talking about politics and playoffs during fights.
Combat speed in FFXI is perfect. You need the standard attack to be slow so you can see a difference when you are hasted. Why in other games a Great sword swings as fast as a one handed sword is a miracle to me. Combat speed in most mmorpgs is too fast.
Reasons why combat speed is like that in FFXI:
1. You need to see a diference if you get hasted/haste gear etc.
2. You need to time skillchains, magic, abilities which is part of beeing a skilled player.
3. It is very important to be able to stun certain enemy moves or your party will wipe. You can't do that if combat speed is silly fast like in most mmorpgs.
3. You need skill and timing to recast Utsusemi (ninja shadows), stoneskin, blink, phalanx and many more. If you time it right you can recast in between the mobs attacks. It is all about SKILL.
PS: A comment to the Ninja speeeed Video. I am a Ninja in FFXI and this is actually the career goal of a ninja. Haste gear (AF body, Relic pants or byakko's haidate, speed belt, Fuma, Dusk Gloves and Turban). To be fair however, A lot of the speed comes from the Haste spell and the double March from the Bard.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
XIVs combat will heavily focus on the you/your party vs multiple enemies. That alone should make combat feel more fast paced.
The videos out now are based on very, early alpha builds. A lot of the combat mechanics weren't even working then. They could do a couple of WSs, some normal skills and attacks and absolutely no magic. They were also obviously showing some entry level guildleve with pre created characters that couldn't be harmed and/or killed.
XIVs combat doesn't need to follow the WoW route and turn into a FPS style reaction fest. Looks to be "Faster" then XI, yet "slower" then WoWs, which is just right IMO.
I've played a few weeks of FFXI and however much I tried, I could not get into it. The combat speed isn't the problem for me, it was the reliance on auto attacks doing the majority of the hits, with skills in between. Alright, I won't lie, I perhaps didn't play it enough to get to a higher lvl (I have to say, I REALLY wanted to get to a higher level. REALLY badly. The PvE looked awesome.) but I couldn't push myself anymore.
I'm worried that FFXIV'll be the same, because I REALLY love how it looks right now.
I've played a few weeks of FFXI and however much I tried, I could not get into it. The combat speed isn't the problem for me, it was the reliance on auto attacks doing the majority of the hits, with skills in between. Alright, I won't lie, I perhaps didn't play it enough to get to a higher lvl (I have to say, I REALLY wanted to get to a higher level. REALLY badly. The PvE looked awesome.) but I couldn't push myself anymore.
I'm worried that FFXIV'll be the same, because I REALLY love how it looks right now.
Not to mention NOBUO UEMATSU. YES PLEASE.
Let's be honest, the first 10 levels are terrible when it comes to attracting new players. Your attack speed which affects your rate of skills, is heavily based on haste gear and spells, which you don't really have access to until the 40's.
I've played a few weeks of FFXI and however much I tried, I could not get into it. The combat speed isn't the problem for me, it was the reliance on auto attacks doing the majority of the hits, with skills in between. Alright, I won't lie, I perhaps didn't play it enough to get to a higher lvl (I have to say, I REALLY wanted to get to a higher level. REALLY badly. The PvE looked awesome.) but I couldn't push myself anymore.
I'm worried that FFXIV'll be the same, because I REALLY love how it looks right now.
Not to mention NOBUO UEMATSU. YES PLEASE.
They entirely removed auto-attacks for XIV due to the very reason you stated so you don't need to worry there. A lot of players were actually able to go AFK on auto-attack because it was so bad. This time though every weapon swing will be an actual weapon skill of some kind used actively by the player.
With regards to the speed though, the reason it was slow in XI was due to the game having so many mechanics that relied on player coordination and timing abilities in a sequence. If the combat had the pace of WoW there would be no way that players could feasibly coordinate themselves in such a way (or else it would be too difficult for any but the best prepared groups). Since XIV is confirmed to have these same systems (as well as new ones such as the range/positioning system) the game has to retain the slower combat speed else the group mechanics would be unusable.
Comments
I just watched
As far as speed of combat,one person got it partially right,they do have to allow for action/reaction using menus.Remove the reaction process and you have a mind numbing speedy dumb game play,i would hope people like to think a litle bit if even to use an iq of 30-50.There are other factors as well,as you get longer into the game,players expect better equipment,so you don't just start a game as a noob swinging 500 mph swings.They also try to create some realism like bigger/heavier weapons take longer delays.If you shorten delays and make delay a non factor,then everyone will not have weapon choice they will just outright pick the weapon with most damage,again that removes any thinking or versatility.
If you have not seen a fully equipped Haste player/ninja then i guess i can see why you don't unerstand how Square thinks out an entire game design,they don't just throw it together.I will spill it out,that Ninja fully decked out for speed,swings unrealsitically fast and non stop,you would not be talking about slow game play,once you see it live.NINJA FFXI.More speed combat
Thing is you have to earn your way to that ability,this is not some cheap Korean game,where they develope every player with the same blinding speed animations from level 1 and just paste a weapon onto them.
I personally thought FFXI was/is the best PVE combat design i have ever seen and i do not see anything for a long time ever coming close to it.I am actually afraid that FFXIV wil lbe too much like FXIII,i don't much like that combat style at all.
As far as the video that everyone seen,i highly doubt that is accurate at all,even in FFXI there was a better hitbox system,in that video we saw player standing inside the mob,looked awful,you can bet it will be a ton better than that pre Alpha video.
I am curious as to what the OP figures combat should look and play like that equates to high end ?Faster does not equal high end,this is not a sports car race.High End to me means better animations,better graphics,and more effort put into everything ,rather than vanilla game copying that i see most developers doing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I don't understand why you had to use such extreme examples to prove your point? Both of those situations are very unlikely to happen in normal gameplay. Something more realistic would have sufficed, now it just looks like you picked 2 examples that do not represent the normal gameplay whatsoever.
The combat speed at level cap is quite enough to keep you occupied enough, at least when not just exping or doing similar grindish task. But it could scale better, too, while you get to the cap. It's very slow at start and fast at the end.. it could be faster too at the lower level, when you don't even have many skills at your disposal in the first place. I hope XIV can balance that factor better than XI, but from the looks of it, that should be the case. Players can interact more with the game right from the start, not at the end.
It's very simple - combat has to be slow to compensate for gamepads (at least in FF11 it was, because you could still use gamepad in PC version of the game) and their lack of hotkeys... although it does look like FF14 is actually going to have greatly different UI for PC version, with action bar and all. Seriously, can you even imagine a fair match in, let's say, WoW between a skilled players who knows his hotkeys and a gamepad user? That would be one quick match.
That has nothing to do with battle speed. If the combat is designed for gamepads, it doesn't mean it has to be slow- good example being FFXIII.
The more number of buttons you need to press does not equal faster combat.
Well if we look at this as compared to real life WoW has a closer semblance to it as in life actions are usually instant in combat and the time you have to react to them short depending on who and how your fighting so you have to think on your feet and respond as fast as you can, but in WoWs case it is a bit faster paced than that considering how fast your actions are as opposed to real life. Where i feel FFXI at least gave you too much time to respond, as both player and npc actions where base on a timing scale or at least thats how it felt for me. I feel a good combat system could find a balance between the two styles where you have to have on your feet strategy but it does't move a million miles an hour. Granted some people like a slow paced game while others like a fast one, I on the other hand would prefer more balance, though such a combat system would be hard to emulate as the the lines and views between to fast and too slow are unclear and very perspective based, but if anyone can do it would be SE and their combined year or experience the RPG field. That and as time has shown SE is always changing their combat system in their games using elements of older ones to make their new one, so i am sure their going to put some FFXI elements in FFXIV as well as add some of new ones and maybe some elements of FFXIII as well, one thing is for sure it will be different and they we the players will have to decide if we like it or not.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
^ lol. Well in "real life" i cant cast magic, swing oversized swords, or battle giant creatures, so lets leave the "compared to RL" bit out of it......unless you can cast magic?
RL does not = fantasy in a video game
was only using it as a base to set an idea of the preceptions of combat and speed not as saying the game should be more like real life, learn to read beyond just text.
We go trough life with many yet there is a time we must walk our path alone.
Yes it's not an action game, it's an RPG. RPGs are like that, slow. It serves its purpose well cause you have the opportunity to think your next move. Additionally in MMORPGs specifically it gives you the time needed in order to chat with your group and coordinate your actions according to what the rest members of the team are going to do. Or even if that is not the cause it gives you some time for some meaningless chit-chat :P
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
OMG I hope people are not going to be talking about politics and playoffs during fights.
Combat speed in FFXI is perfect. You need the standard attack to be slow so you can see a difference when you are hasted. Why in other games a Great sword swings as fast as a one handed sword is a miracle to me. Combat speed in most mmorpgs is too fast.
Reasons why combat speed is like that in FFXI:
1. You need to see a diference if you get hasted/haste gear etc.
2. You need to time skillchains, magic, abilities which is part of beeing a skilled player.
3. It is very important to be able to stun certain enemy moves or your party will wipe. You can't do that if combat speed is silly fast like in most mmorpgs.
3. You need skill and timing to recast Utsusemi (ninja shadows), stoneskin, blink, phalanx and many more. If you time it right you can recast in between the mobs attacks. It is all about SKILL.
PS: A comment to the Ninja speeeed Video. I am a Ninja in FFXI and this is actually the career goal of a ninja. Haste gear (AF body, Relic pants or byakko's haidate, speed belt, Fuma, Dusk Gloves and Turban). To be fair however, A lot of the speed comes from the Haste spell and the double March from the Bard.
XIVs combat will heavily focus on the you/your party vs multiple enemies. That alone should make combat feel more fast paced.
The videos out now are based on very, early alpha builds. A lot of the combat mechanics weren't even working then. They could do a couple of WSs, some normal skills and attacks and absolutely no magic. They were also obviously showing some entry level guildleve with pre created characters that couldn't be harmed and/or killed.
XIVs combat doesn't need to follow the WoW route and turn into a FPS style reaction fest. Looks to be "Faster" then XI, yet "slower" then WoWs, which is just right IMO.
I've played a few weeks of FFXI and however much I tried, I could not get into it. The combat speed isn't the problem for me, it was the reliance on auto attacks doing the majority of the hits, with skills in between. Alright, I won't lie, I perhaps didn't play it enough to get to a higher lvl (I have to say, I REALLY wanted to get to a higher level. REALLY badly. The PvE looked awesome.) but I couldn't push myself anymore.
I'm worried that FFXIV'll be the same, because I REALLY love how it looks right now.
Not to mention NOBUO UEMATSU. YES PLEASE.
Let's be honest, the first 10 levels are terrible when it comes to attracting new players. Your attack speed which affects your rate of skills, is heavily based on haste gear and spells, which you don't really have access to until the 40's.
They entirely removed auto-attacks for XIV due to the very reason you stated so you don't need to worry there. A lot of players were actually able to go AFK on auto-attack because it was so bad. This time though every weapon swing will be an actual weapon skill of some kind used actively by the player.
With regards to the speed though, the reason it was slow in XI was due to the game having so many mechanics that relied on player coordination and timing abilities in a sequence. If the combat had the pace of WoW there would be no way that players could feasibly coordinate themselves in such a way (or else it would be too difficult for any but the best prepared groups). Since XIV is confirmed to have these same systems (as well as new ones such as the range/positioning system) the game has to retain the slower combat speed else the group mechanics would be unusable.
I actually enjoy slower pace combat myself. I love the timing needed and so on. It's the auto attacks.
And since that's not going to be in, I'm VERY relieved, and am now much more interested in FFXIV.
Thanks for the answers.