Economic loss. Hit your wallet instead of your ability to play the game (because playing at 25% of your maximum capacity for 10 minutes is a stupid penalty - I might as well AFK for those 10 minutes, which means the game isn't even fun enough to do anything until I'm at full strength again). You control (to an extent) how much you lose by how much you decide to risk. WoW's death is an annoyance at best, inconvenience at worst. Scalable pain is the best option.
Think of a single-player RPG. If you die, you most likely start from your last save point. If you saved 2 minutes ago, it's not too bad. If you saved an hour ago, you might cry. If you risk mediocre gear in combat and lose it, it's not too bad. If you bring out your best and lose it, you might cry.
That being said, some system of insurance is necessary because we can't have everyone fighting with daggers and underwear, too scared to use their best gear.
If we must really insist on stat penalties, they have to be soft enough so that the player isn't rendered as useful as a baked potato for X amount of time after death. LotRO is a good example of a moderate stat loss death penalty.
And last but not least, exp loss is not an option. It's not. In a persistent world, an MMO, you can't turn back the clock an hour and undo all the experience I gained. You can't, it goes against the laws of time.
Odd. The last time I played WoW everyone cared about dying. In fact, if a group wiped it usually led to a couple of people rage quitting and blaming everyone else.
I was also turned down for many a group, because my dps was sub 2.5k. Now, if no one cared about dying in WoW why would any of this be important?
Same mentality exist in DDO. Death isn't much, but dying sure pisses people off. I think the current death system is fine. In fact, the death penalty is so great in these games people hate PUGing. If death was of no consequence as you say, then PUGing would be popular.
I'd like to point out that back in EQ's day the death penalty was considered pretty steep. Why is it PUGing was so frequent back then? We didn't even have the word PUG. I'm thinking death penalty in games today is more about the stop in action, the waste of time, and the prospect of failing an instance.
Personally, I can't stand dying in an MMO. Hate it with a passion. Any penalty whatsoever is too harsh for my tastes. I am the hero! No mere minions should be able to defeat me, even in large numbers. I'd like to see an MMO where it was possible, without excessive caution, to go from level 1 to the top without ever dying once.
When a friend and I played Diablo he downloaded a God mode cheat for the game just for the hell of it and I played with it just because he had it. About two minutes of that and I was bored out of my mind.
Odd. The last time I played WoW everyone cared about dying. In fact, if a group wiped it usually led to a couple of people rage quitting and blaming everyone else. I was also turned down for many a group, because my dps was sub 2.5k. Now, if no one cared about dying in WoW why would any of this be important?
Same mentality exist in DDO. Death isn't much, but dying sure pisses people off. I think the current death system is fine. In fact, the death penalty is so great in these games people hate PUGing. If death was of no consequence as you say, then PUGing would be popular.
I'd like to point out that back in EQ's day the death penalty was considered pretty steep. Why is it PUGing was so frequent back then? We didn't even have the word PUG. I'm thinking death penalty in games today is more about the stop in action, the waste of time, and the prospect of failing an instance.
So it sounds like Fallen Earth got it perfect where you die and instantly spawn into the closest "clone chamber" and just have to run back to where you were? None of the ghost stuff. Heck...I'm not even sure they have any durability loss or anything else. Seems like just a short run back.
I don't understand, when are video games "not suppose to be fun"
When you die, that's when. Part of the fun is avoiding death. Are we really so far gone that there are really people out there who think dying in these games should not only but should ? Fun generally being something you want to do.
Jesus Christ, if people really seriously start defending that idea I think this will be the moment when I go over the hump and officially become a grumpy old man.
Prior to MMOs, gaming grew into a rather sizable industry without focusing on punishing players. These games were all about having fun.
There were obviously degrees of success and failure, and only the best players laid claim to beating certain games on their hardest difficulty, but none of these games had a "you failed so here's 5 minutes of uber-bland gameplay!" game mechanic. I mean...the player just failed. They didn't beat the level. They didn't get the reward. And then you feel it's necessary to slap an additional punishment on top of that?
If this was Gradius (NES), I would instantly restart that dungeon from the beginning and immediately continue having fun. If this was Halo, the party would restart from a saved checkpoint a few minutes earlier, and immediately continue having fun. Neither of these systems break MMORPG advancement. If you don't reach the boss and beat it, you wouldn't get rewarded in a MMORPG using these death systems.
Sadly the core reason for death penalties being the way they are is world gameplay. It's one of the many necessary evils associated with an open world. Even worse is the fact that MMORPGs use the same death system in dungeon gameplay (if they have it) which makes no sense at all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
So it sounds like Fallen Earth got it perfect where you die and instantly spawn into the closest "clone chamber" and just have to run back to where you were? None of the ghost stuff. Heck...I'm not even sure they have any durability loss or anything else. Seems like just a short run back.
Your items take a durability hit. Fortunately you can craft repair kits with even the most rudimentary crafting ability tho
So it sounds like Fallen Earth got it perfect where you die and instantly spawn into the closest "clone chamber" and just have to run back to where you were? None of the ghost stuff. Heck...I'm not even sure they have any durability loss or anything else. Seems like just a short run back.
Hmmm...
Say instead of "death" - which IMO is pretty stupid for a game, because it brings in the question of "why do the NPC missions involving death matter? Why didn't they rez?", along with just the plain ol' scary thought of ressurection in general, along with necromancy.
Perhaps a player could be knocked "into submission", and must crawl on their knees, immune to NPCs (but perhaps a favourite target for gankers?) to the nearest place where they could get aid - either for a fee, or for their time, whatever.
Perhaps at dungeons, there could be expeditions at the entrance, people willing to help the brave heroes (you) who are willing to actually go in there and fight those powerful monsters, but not actually go in themselves. They could be the "start of dungeon 'rez'"
Additionally, you might find aid tents or just a random healer at a campfire in the dungeon where you can resurrect, like a checkpoint of sorts.
In Zelda, dying when up against a boss sucked, but you really just had to remember the puzzles you just did and go fight it again (preferably after filling your hearts back up by breaking pots, or whatever)
I believe we could take examples from our loved single-player RPGs when thinking about death penalties is all.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Prior to MMOs, gaming grew into a rather sizable industry without focusing on punishing players. These games were all about having fun.
There were obviously degrees of success and failure, and only the best players laid claim to beating certain games on their hardest difficulty, but none of these games had a "you failed so here's 5 minutes of uber-bland gameplay!" game mechanic. I mean...the player just failed. They didn't beat the level. They didn't get the reward. And then you feel it's necessary to slap an additional punishment on top of that?
If this was Gradius (NES), I would instantly restart that dungeon from the beginning and immediately continue having fun. If this was Halo, the party would restart from a saved checkpoint a few minutes earlier, and immediately continue having fun. Neither of these systems break MMORPG advancement. If you don't reach the boss and beat it, you wouldn't get rewarded in a MMORPG using these death systems.
Sadly the core reason for death penalties being the way they are is world gameplay. It's one of the many necessary evils associated with an open world. Even worse is the fact that MMORPGs use the same death system in dungeon gameplay (if they have it) which makes no sense at all.
Believe it or not I will at least partially agree with you. In single player games where you have to beat a game level before you can move on and if you die you have to restart the level, die and restart, die and restart, that's fine. And this can work for instanced content in a mmo if the instance resets after a wipeout.
But it doesn't work in open, persistant world content which, as far as I'm concerned, is what mmo's should be all about. To tell you the truth I don't even think of instances as part of the mmo content. That stuff is just the single player / co-op games that have been cobbled onto mmorpgs. As the standard rant goes; if instances are going to be the main focus of a mmorpg then why bother even pretending that it's a mmorpg?
A persistant, shared, non-instanced world is what makes a mmorpg a mmorpg and "restarting the game level" doesn't work in a persistant world.
make death more fun? wow this is whats wrong with MMOs.
death shouldn't be fun, its there as a penalty and should be thought of as such.
Spot on.
But that saidk, we all have different opinions of what is an acceptable death penalty. In this thread we've seen people want zero death penalty, (or even be able to die) to those who want the keyboard to give them a good electric shock and set their hair on fire.
Its a very tricky road for a Development team and perhaps one of the most important design decisions they have to make. Screw it up and you alientate a bulk of the player baase, and most Devs want to appeal to the widest number of subscribers possible.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
So it sounds like Fallen Earth got it perfect where you die and instantly spawn into the closest "clone chamber" and just have to run back to where you were? None of the ghost stuff. Heck...I'm not even sure they have any durability loss or anything else. Seems like just a short run back.
Your items take a durability hit. Fortunately you can craft repair kits with even the most rudimentary crafting ability tho
Short? No...it's rarely a "short" run back. There is no fast travel in FE and dying has (many times) actually made me want to log out and take a break because of the dauntingly LONG "run" back to where I was, how loooooooong that would take, and the fact I would have to fight my way BACK through a bunch of aggro to continue where I left off. So, at least for ME...I wouldn't say FE's death was pain free.
The cloning chamber (i.e. LifeNet) however makes complete sense within the story of the game, so it's never felt contrived to me. But there are times when you die VERY far away from the nearest LifeNet facility where you respawn, so...it's not necessarily a "short run back."
So it sounds like Fallen Earth got it perfect where you die and instantly spawn into the closest "clone chamber" and just have to run back to where you were? None of the ghost stuff. Heck...I'm not even sure they have any durability loss or anything else. Seems like just a short run back.
Your items take a durability hit. Fortunately you can craft repair kits with even the most rudimentary crafting ability tho
Short? No...it's rarely a "short" run back. There is no fast travel in FE and dying has (many times) actually made me want to log out and take a break because of the dauntingly LONG "run" back to where I was, how loooooooong that would take, and the fact I would have to fight my way BACK through a bunch of aggro to continue where I left off. So, at least for ME...I wouldn't say FE's death was pain free.
The cloning chamber (i.e. LifeNet) however makes complete sense within the story of the game, so it's never felt contrived to me. But there are times when you die VERY far away from the nearest LifeNet facility where you respawn, so...it's not necessarily a "short run back."
Insta-spawning in a "clone" chamber with all my clothes and possessions? Since when are items and clothing clonable. Shouldn't you have to run back to get your possessions? That kind of inconsistency is exactly what I'm talking about that takes me out of the game. And besides, the whole cloning facilities everywhere in a Post-Apocalyptic world? ...really? Do you really think that technology would still be working? Then why am I scrounging for bent rusty nails? Not trying to turn this into a FE rant but those are things associated with death that don't really work for me. Once again, I think like a lot of other players (I believe). I want to be immersed in a large BELIEVABLE world. If I have some fear of loss that doesn't take the fun out of the game...all the better.
So it sounds like Fallen Earth got it perfect where you die and instantly spawn into the closest "clone chamber" and just have to run back to where you were? None of the ghost stuff. Heck...I'm not even sure they have any durability loss or anything else. Seems like just a short run back.
Your items take a durability hit. Fortunately you can craft repair kits with even the most rudimentary crafting ability tho
Short? No...it's rarely a "short" run back. There is no fast travel in FE and dying has (many times) actually made me want to log out and take a break because of the dauntingly LONG "run" back to where I was, how loooooooong that would take, and the fact I would have to fight my way BACK through a bunch of aggro to continue where I left off. So, at least for ME...I wouldn't say FE's death was pain free.
The cloning chamber (i.e. LifeNet) however makes complete sense within the story of the game, so it's never felt contrived to me. But there are times when you die VERY far away from the nearest LifeNet facility where you respawn, so...it's not necessarily a "short run back."
Insta-spawning in a "clone" chamber with all my clothes and possessions? Since when are items and clothing clonable. Shouldn't you have to run back to get your possessions? That kind of inconsistency is exactly what I'm talking about that takes me out of the game. And besides, the whole cloning facilities everywhere in a Post-Apocalyptic world? ...really? Do you really think that technology would still be working? Then why am I scrounging for bent rusty nails? Not trying to turn this into a FE rant but those are things associated with death that don't really work for me. Once again, I think like a lot of other players (I believe). I want to be immersed in a large BELIEVABLE world. If I have some fear of loss that doesn't take the fun out of the game...all the better.
You make some good points, actually. But apparently...it's not too irritating to a lot of people, as FE's pop continues to grow. And you know, if you played the game, that LifeNet was all but destroyed and we had to help repair it (this is where the game begins for the player, actually)...which is why there are limited facilities and they are only functioning at their minimal levels. :P So FE rant all you want! ~
Besides....I don't recall saying I disagreed with there being some FoD, but I am NOT cool with Allods version of that, for SURE....nor the extent that some games take it to. I came from UO and the EQ "style" of death where there were corpse runs, naked, back to all your stuff, which in some cases was GONE by the time you got there, so I'm no stranger to "meaningful" (or time wasting, depending on your views) death penalties.
But it doesn't work in open, persistant world content which, as far as I'm concerned, is what mmo's should be all about. To tell you the truth I don't even think of instances as part of the mmo content. That stuff is just the single player / co-op games that have been cobbled onto mmorpgs. As the standard rant goes; if instances are going to be the main focus of a mmorpg then why bother even pretending that it's a mmorpg?
A persistant, shared, non-instanced world is what makes a mmorpg a mmorpg and "restarting the game level" doesn't work in a persistant world.
It hasn't been solved in existing MMORPG world design, but that doesn't mean it can't be solved.
1. This idea starts with Public Quests (WAR) as a base. A game world event with a formalized reward system at the end.
2. Like PQs, you get points for the variety of activities (killing, gathering items, defending NPCs) associated with the event. Unlike PQs, certain tiers of points would be necessary to receive rewards.
3. You lose 80% of your points if you die.
4. Or hell, drop "points" altogether (except as a means of judging whether someone's leeching the event or not) and have rewards be set, but only if you make it through to the end. Naturally 90% of PQs will end up being mindlessly easy (*for hardcore players), but you'd also have ones where it's a real challenge to live through til the end. And obviously the best rewards only exist if players challenge themselves. (or maybe that's not obvious, since a lot of games -- even WOW -- fail on this point.)
Obviously this idea still has to address the "world gameplay has terrible difficulty" issue -- probably through dynamic difficulty adjusting based on player count/level -- but at least that's a good start on a system. Yet another substantial downside of world gameplay, that complicated systems are needed to dynamically adjust gameplay if you want to have remotely interesting fight scenarios. I suppose that's partly why level-based games strongly segregate their audience based on level - if high level players had any sort of incentive to help in that lowbie zone, any bit of semblence of challenge (of which there was little to start) would be removed.
And I could imagine a slightly better on where your progress in an event is basically "saved", but I think it'd be tricky to explain and sound overcomplicated (even though it's utterly simplistic from the user's end.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
It hasn't been solved in existing MMORPG world design, but that doesn't mean it can't be solved.
1. This idea starts with Public Quests (WAR) as a base. A game world event with a formalized reward system at the end.
2. Like PQs, you get points for the variety of activities (killing, gathering items, defending NPCs) associated with the event. Unlike PQs, certain tiers of points would be necessary to receive rewards.
3. You lose 80% of your points if you die.
4. Or hell, drop "points" altogether (except as a means of judging whether someone's leeching the event or not) and have rewards be set, but only if you make it through to the end. Naturally 90% of PQs will end up being mindlessly easy (*for hardcore players), but you'd also have ones where it's a real challenge to live through til the end. And obviously the best rewards only exist if players challenge themselves. (or maybe that's not obvious, since a lot of games -- even WOW -- fail on this point.)
Obviously this idea still has to address the "world gameplay has terrible difficulty" issue -- probably through dynamic difficulty adjusting based on player count/level -- but at least that's a good start on a system. Yet another substantial downside of world gameplay, that complicated systems are needed to dynamically adjust gameplay if you want to have remotely interesting fight scenarios. I suppose that's partly why level-based games strongly segregate their audience based on level - if high level players had any sort of incentive to help in that lowbie zone, any bit of semblence of challenge (of which there was little to start) would be removed.
And I could imagine a slightly better on where your progress in an event is basically "saved", but I think it'd be tricky to explain and sound overcomplicated (even though it's utterly simplistic from the user's end.)
In games with quest based advancement there is one fairly obvious thing that could be done in open world content which would be somewhat analogous to restarting a game level if that paradigm is the goal. When you die you lose all progress you've made on partially finished quests and have to start over from the begining.
I see one major problem with that though. Quests in those games are usually so trivial and short that this would hardly matter. Have fewer, longer, harder quests and this might be worth considering.
IMHO, death isn't supposed to be fun. However, managing to stay alive is tons of fun and extremely rewarding if death carries a harsh penalty. I'm all for harsh death penalties.
I play MMO's for the immersion and large world atmosphere. Something that really takes me out of that is Inappropriate death penalties. In WOW a 15 sec run back to my body (and 10% durability hit which doesn't matter since everyone has so much gold now days) is hardly a "penalty". I don't mind the concept of "hardcore" corpse looting (and I even enjoyed UO back in the day), but it seems that the only games that offer anything similar cater to PKing or have an insane leveling curve, which for me doesn't really seem to mix well with that sort of penalty. There is a very fine line between making the death penalty meaningless and totally frustrating, mind you the end result is for the game to be fun. But I keep thinking to myself..."There has to be a meaningful death penalty that is acceptable." (And better than what's currently being offered)
So I thought I'd post and see if anyone here has any better ideas or had played an MMO with a death penalty that you really liked?
Death penalties can utilize fear of dying without necessarily inflicting the pain of dying. Say a 3% chance of losing a boatload of experience each time you die. Call it the "Wheel of Fate" or something, maybe you spin it when you "release".
This will cause players to sweat dying, but rarely will they feel the actual penalty (unless they are just unlucky) when they die. If we can get players to sweat dying, then we have immersion back in the game.
In games with quest based advancement there is one fairly obvious thing that could be done in open world content which would be somewhat analogous to restarting a game level if that paradigm is the goal. When you die you lose all progress you've made on partially finished quests and have to start over from the begining.
I see one major problem with that though. Quests in those games are usually so trivial and short that this would hardly matter. Have fewer, longer, harder quests and this might be worth considering.
Well yes, that's functionally identical to what I've proposed :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
Economic loss. Hit your wallet instead of your ability to play the game (because playing at 25% of your maximum capacity for 10 minutes is a stupid penalty - I might as well AFK for those 10 minutes, which means the game isn't even fun enough to do anything until I'm at full strength again). You control (to an extent) how much you lose by how much you decide to risk. WoW's death is an annoyance at best, inconvenience at worst. Scalable pain is the best option.
Think of a single-player RPG. If you die, you most likely start from your last save point. If you saved 2 minutes ago, it's not too bad. If you saved an hour ago, you might cry. If you risk mediocre gear in combat and lose it, it's not too bad. If you bring out your best and lose it, you might cry.
That being said, some system of insurance is necessary because we can't have everyone fighting with daggers and underwear, too scared to use their best gear.
If we must really insist on stat penalties, they have to be soft enough so that the player isn't rendered as useful as a baked potato for X amount of time after death. LotRO is a good example of a moderate stat loss death penalty.
And last but not least, exp loss is not an option. It's not. In a persistent world, an MMO, you can't turn back the clock an hour and undo all the experience I gained. You can't, it goes against the laws of time.
Odd. The last time I played WoW everyone cared about dying. In fact, if a group wiped it usually led to a couple of people rage quitting and blaming everyone else.
I was also turned down for many a group, because my dps was sub 2.5k. Now, if no one cared about dying in WoW why would any of this be important?
Same mentality exist in DDO. Death isn't much, but dying sure pisses people off. I think the current death system is fine. In fact, the death penalty is so great in these games people hate PUGing. If death was of no consequence as you say, then PUGing would be popular.
I'd like to point out that back in EQ's day the death penalty was considered pretty steep. Why is it PUGing was so frequent back then? We didn't even have the word PUG. I'm thinking death penalty in games today is more about the stop in action, the waste of time, and the prospect of failing an instance.
When a friend and I played Diablo he downloaded a God mode cheat for the game just for the hell of it and I played with it just because he had it. About two minutes of that and I was bored out of my mind.
Agreed sir. ^^
So it sounds like Fallen Earth got it perfect where you die and instantly spawn into the closest "clone chamber" and just have to run back to where you were? None of the ghost stuff. Heck...I'm not even sure they have any durability loss or anything else. Seems like just a short run back.
Prior to MMOs, gaming grew into a rather sizable industry without focusing on punishing players. These games were all about having fun.
There were obviously degrees of success and failure, and only the best players laid claim to beating certain games on their hardest difficulty, but none of these games had a "you failed so here's 5 minutes of uber-bland gameplay!" game mechanic. I mean...the player just failed. They didn't beat the level. They didn't get the reward. And then you feel it's necessary to slap an additional punishment on top of that?
If this was Gradius (NES), I would instantly restart that dungeon from the beginning and immediately continue having fun. If this was Halo, the party would restart from a saved checkpoint a few minutes earlier, and immediately continue having fun. Neither of these systems break MMORPG advancement. If you don't reach the boss and beat it, you wouldn't get rewarded in a MMORPG using these death systems.
Sadly the core reason for death penalties being the way they are is world gameplay. It's one of the many necessary evils associated with an open world. Even worse is the fact that MMORPGs use the same death system in dungeon gameplay (if they have it) which makes no sense at all.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Your items take a durability hit. Fortunately you can craft repair kits with even the most rudimentary crafting ability tho
Currently Playing: The Game
Truthfully...Death isnt fun...but you deal with it and move on...in all MMO's you have death.
Hmmm...
Say instead of "death" - which IMO is pretty stupid for a game, because it brings in the question of "why do the NPC missions involving death matter? Why didn't they rez?", along with just the plain ol' scary thought of ressurection in general, along with necromancy.
Perhaps a player could be knocked "into submission", and must crawl on their knees, immune to NPCs (but perhaps a favourite target for gankers?) to the nearest place where they could get aid - either for a fee, or for their time, whatever.
Perhaps at dungeons, there could be expeditions at the entrance, people willing to help the brave heroes (you) who are willing to actually go in there and fight those powerful monsters, but not actually go in themselves. They could be the "start of dungeon 'rez'"
Additionally, you might find aid tents or just a random healer at a campfire in the dungeon where you can resurrect, like a checkpoint of sorts.
In Zelda, dying when up against a boss sucked, but you really just had to remember the puzzles you just did and go fight it again (preferably after filling your hearts back up by breaking pots, or whatever)
I believe we could take examples from our loved single-player RPGs when thinking about death penalties is all.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
Believe it or not I will at least partially agree with you. In single player games where you have to beat a game level before you can move on and if you die you have to restart the level, die and restart, die and restart, that's fine. And this can work for instanced content in a mmo if the instance resets after a wipeout.
But it doesn't work in open, persistant world content which, as far as I'm concerned, is what mmo's should be all about. To tell you the truth I don't even think of instances as part of the mmo content. That stuff is just the single player / co-op games that have been cobbled onto mmorpgs. As the standard rant goes; if instances are going to be the main focus of a mmorpg then why bother even pretending that it's a mmorpg?
A persistant, shared, non-instanced world is what makes a mmorpg a mmorpg and "restarting the game level" doesn't work in a persistant world.
What if you die while you are dead? You become a ghost of a ghost?
make death more fun? wow this is whats wrong with MMOs.
death shouldn't be fun, its there as a penalty and should be thought of as such.
Spot on.
But that saidk, we all have different opinions of what is an acceptable death penalty. In this thread we've seen people want zero death penalty, (or even be able to die) to those who want the keyboard to give them a good electric shock and set their hair on fire.
Its a very tricky road for a Development team and perhaps one of the most important design decisions they have to make. Screw it up and you alientate a bulk of the player baase, and most Devs want to appeal to the widest number of subscribers possible.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Short? No...it's rarely a "short" run back. There is no fast travel in FE and dying has (many times) actually made me want to log out and take a break because of the dauntingly LONG "run" back to where I was, how loooooooong that would take, and the fact I would have to fight my way BACK through a bunch of aggro to continue where I left off. So, at least for ME...I wouldn't say FE's death was pain free.
The cloning chamber (i.e. LifeNet) however makes complete sense within the story of the game, so it's never felt contrived to me. But there are times when you die VERY far away from the nearest LifeNet facility where you respawn, so...it's not necessarily a "short run back."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Insta-spawning in a "clone" chamber with all my clothes and possessions? Since when are items and clothing clonable. Shouldn't you have to run back to get your possessions? That kind of inconsistency is exactly what I'm talking about that takes me out of the game. And besides, the whole cloning facilities everywhere in a Post-Apocalyptic world? ...really? Do you really think that technology would still be working? Then why am I scrounging for bent rusty nails? Not trying to turn this into a FE rant but those are things associated with death that don't really work for me. Once again, I think like a lot of other players (I believe). I want to be immersed in a large BELIEVABLE world. If I have some fear of loss that doesn't take the fun out of the game...all the better.
Why would I want to make death fun? The fact that death isn't fun is what makes a lot of other things in the game fun.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
You make some good points, actually. But apparently...it's not too irritating to a lot of people, as FE's pop continues to grow. And you know, if you played the game, that LifeNet was all but destroyed and we had to help repair it (this is where the game begins for the player, actually)...which is why there are limited facilities and they are only functioning at their minimal levels. :P So FE rant all you want!
Besides....I don't recall saying I disagreed with there being some FoD, but I am NOT cool with Allods version of that, for SURE....nor the extent that some games take it to. I came from UO and the EQ "style" of death where there were corpse runs, naked, back to all your stuff, which in some cases was GONE by the time you got there, so I'm no stranger to "meaningful" (or time wasting, depending on your views) death penalties.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
It hasn't been solved in existing MMORPG world design, but that doesn't mean it can't be solved.
1. This idea starts with Public Quests (WAR) as a base. A game world event with a formalized reward system at the end.
2. Like PQs, you get points for the variety of activities (killing, gathering items, defending NPCs) associated with the event. Unlike PQs, certain tiers of points would be necessary to receive rewards.
3. You lose 80% of your points if you die.
4. Or hell, drop "points" altogether (except as a means of judging whether someone's leeching the event or not) and have rewards be set, but only if you make it through to the end. Naturally 90% of PQs will end up being mindlessly easy (*for hardcore players), but you'd also have ones where it's a real challenge to live through til the end. And obviously the best rewards only exist if players challenge themselves. (or maybe that's not obvious, since a lot of games -- even WOW -- fail on this point.)
Obviously this idea still has to address the "world gameplay has terrible difficulty" issue -- probably through dynamic difficulty adjusting based on player count/level -- but at least that's a good start on a system. Yet another substantial downside of world gameplay, that complicated systems are needed to dynamically adjust gameplay if you want to have remotely interesting fight scenarios. I suppose that's partly why level-based games strongly segregate their audience based on level - if high level players had any sort of incentive to help in that lowbie zone, any bit of semblence of challenge (of which there was little to start) would be removed.
And I could imagine a slightly better on where your progress in an event is basically "saved", but I think it'd be tricky to explain and sound overcomplicated (even though it's utterly simplistic from the user's end.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In games with quest based advancement there is one fairly obvious thing that could be done in open world content which would be somewhat analogous to restarting a game level if that paradigm is the goal. When you die you lose all progress you've made on partially finished quests and have to start over from the begining.
I see one major problem with that though. Quests in those games are usually so trivial and short that this would hardly matter. Have fewer, longer, harder quests and this might be worth considering.
IMHO, death isn't supposed to be fun. However, managing to stay alive is tons of fun and extremely rewarding if death carries a harsh penalty. I'm all for harsh death penalties.
Death penalties can utilize fear of dying without necessarily inflicting the pain of dying. Say a 3% chance of losing a boatload of experience each time you die. Call it the "Wheel of Fate" or something, maybe you spin it when you "release".
This will cause players to sweat dying, but rarely will they feel the actual penalty (unless they are just unlucky) when they die. If we can get players to sweat dying, then we have immersion back in the game.
Well yes, that's functionally identical to what I've proposed :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver