First things first, the Tool. is in my opinion a great addition, fit for the mechanics of WoW, specially for a new player or new character leveling up, getting groups for Uldaman and Scarlet Monastery was not an easy fit, most kids wanted to be run through by a 60 (back at the time when I was leveling Cap was 60), and most adults already had their niche of friends more often than not part of the same guild as themselves, not interested in contributing to the success of anyone outside their own guild.
Which brings us to the point I really agree with in this article, you cannot destroy something that does not exist, that cannot be more true for WOW. Because WoW does not have an in-game community, it only has a Forum Idea of a Community. And while we may want to present this as the "norm" of MMO's, it is not, I have played many other MMO's that preceded WoW starting with the one that started it all, UO that had In-game Communities...this is an element that has been lost with time...and wow has actually contributed in to turning a real in-game community in to an illusion.
In UO, our guild used to be part of something bigger than itself, a Community of Guilds and Individuals, you would visit their cities they would visit yours you would go adventuring with their member and they with ours, we would go to battle together and would bleed together and would then celebrate our victories together or lick our wounds, over some nice food and drink by a fire place or on the top of a well decorated Tower...in game (not on some forum).
We would make plans together and we would make these plans a reality, in short we would play the game together, because we all shared more than just the meta-game, we shared its world.
In WoW, guilds do not need to have that kind of relationship with one another, and each guild can be a self contained bubble. becaus ethe only thing to share about wow is the meta-game informaton (in other words Information about the game), the game itself does not need to be shared with anyone.
Therefore, it is only nromal that people will use the tools which are more efficient for the task at hand, and forums are more efficient about sharing the mata-game than tryuing to do it in general or any other in game chat.
Simply put, WoW is nto agame that has an in game community it is all outside the game and it is all about the game and not the game itself, and this is one of the reasons why personally I cannot play it for any extended time frame, the game simply bores me, Lich King got me bored in 2 months.
Which brings us back to the Dungeon Finder, it, in and of itself is not a problem, it within the mechanics of the endgame is. While it facilitates grouping, Blizzard has also used it as a measuring tool, and implemented it within a repetitive tred mill of endlessly repeating instances over and over and over to get to the candy (the Gear).
I did all of the Dungeons (or Instances as the newer players call them) in Normal mode, 2-3 times, then repeated them in Heroic Mode, by the 5th time ... all interest and fun there was had long faded, and for waht, so I can go to my guild and say "I just got a new Chest (Leggins, bracers etc)..*link*" and hear the "grats and the ooohs and the Ahhhs"...common please this has gotten really old.
This is not adeventuring anymore, it is Grocery store Shoping "Oh I found a sweet deal on Brocoli!"... and on top of it there is no in game community.
The game is just not worth anyone's time anymore.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Mechanics are a hugely significant part of game mechanics. The LFD is an example of a game mechanic. All game mechanics play into how the community develops and plays (which also affects future game mechanics to an extent). You can't divorce the mechanics from how the community behaves. WoW has a ton of social-killing mechanics now and few to no social-building mechanics, hence the social aspect of the game is pretty crappy overall.
This is absolutely true even if some people refuse to understand it.
A simple example would be the automated auction mechanics in newer games as opposed to old games in which people had to do their buying and selling by dealing directly with others. Auction houses are convenient and easy but in using them an entire dimension of social interaction is lost.
You are absolutely correct that the design of a mmo directly affects the social side of it. Anyone who can't see that is being deliberately obtuse.
Several people (including me) were requesting this exact tool in WoW 3 years before they ever released it. Glad they listened to us because it's nice to have.
Because it didn't make sense to have it for battlegrounds and not have it for instances.
The biggest problem is that there is not gameplay mechanics in place in most MMOs that actually encourage a community. There are no conceptual ideas in WoW that encourage a group of players to hang out at a tavern or to meet there. There are no persistent concepts that encourage players to place objects in the game world whether it be to show off their home, or to sell a product, or for some other purpose that while not necesarily essential in the MMO to level, gain experience, or raise a skill it is essential for social development; and in my opinion essential to be called an MMORPG.
With that said, I continue to express that most of the so called MMORPGs out there today are, in fact, not MMORPGs at all.
To create a social community there has to be an environment that encourages players to communicate or to interact. You cannot force a player to do that you must encourage it. By creating these featueres there will be incredible communities springing to life.
I think too much goes into MMOs these days that does not encourage players to do things, instead, we see to much of these random dungeon tool concepts while convenient do nothing in the way of community.
This right here. Today, if it doesn't help you level or give you gear, players start bashing the game up and down for having "worthless features" and spouting off other ignorant statements. Player housing is all but forgotten, and there is generally little to no reason to ever revisit lower level zones. Additionally, as games become more instanced, everyone is sequestered away in their own little pocket of e-space, rather than coming together at open world focal points. The lack of things to do besides grind and gear also effects the overall depth of the game, namely, games without "secondary" things to do are utterly shallow.
Additionally, anyone saying that this kind of feature doesn't kill the community is fooling themselves. The effect is lessened in the case that WoW had a terrible mash of bodies that someone with a twisted sense of humor might call a "community" in the first place so there wasn't much to destroy. WAR proved quite well how quickly world queue scenario shit like this can run a game into the ground.
"If we liked someone, we couldn't invite them back into a group, or into a guild, or even chat with them; if we hated someone, we had no way of blacklisting them or making their reputation as a horrible player known."
This is not true and shows the author has only partial understanding about WoW's Dungeon Finder. You can infact ignore people from another server with the added benefit that for the future you will never be queued tagether with the blacklisted character. Reputation wise - you can tell your friends to put that person on ignore. And even more - if you feel like being petty and pathetic, you could make a lv1 character on their server and trash them in trade chanel all you want.
People keep saying that "WoW has no community" and "you cannot destroy what did not exist". While true now, it was not always so. In classic WoW there was a great community on my server (PvP). I was easily able to get groups for all the dungeons at level appropriate and met a lot of great people on my way to 60. I didn't join a guild until I was 60 for the simple reason that I didn't need to - the general community provided me with what I needed. Groups were not hard to find, world pvp was not hard to find, a few people to group together while doing the same quests (especially in STV) was not hard to find. There were some great rivalries between guilds and we had certain guilds that were KoS no matter what. Community played a massive reason in why I played the game and why I continued to play for so long.
Everyone would agree that this is no longer the case in WoW. Now is it simply the case that the longer an MMO exists the less important the community becomes? Is it that society has changed and people are now focused on instant and individual rewards, making gameplay much more insualar? Or is it just that WoW changed so much over time that the people who were interested in "community" just left the game and we are left with people who either don't care about community or actively don't want one to exist.
The LFD is a great tool for a game like WoW. To have it implemented in a new MMO from launch day would, however, be an absolute disaster in my opinion.
Over time the will of the community and the dedication of the player base on a server will get diluted. I remember Argent Dawn being a much better server when I joined it a month or two after launch than it was when I left it. The Laurelin server (lotro) was a true RP server at launch, with strict adherence to naming policy. The other day I ran into a player called “Motorneurondisease”, an example of how far the server has fallen. I still regard Laurelin as one of the best RP servers around, but that is reflection of how little RP there is in MMO’s these days, it is a mediocre RP server that only looks good as the rest are so poor.
WoW is lacking so much in other gameplay areas, it is trivial to discuss about the Dungeon Finder tool. A better question would be, when are they going to make the game appeal to casuals (it does now) and more demanding players?
And when is the equipment grinding going to end? It is already annoying (and futile) as hell.
I know, some may say Cataclysm will change the face of WoW...lets wait and see.
I was really skeptical about the dungeon finder too. The first time I tried it a member initiated a kick vote for the group leader with in seconds of getting into the dungeon. The second time one of the members kept making "hands in pants" references. To quote Bladezz from the Guild , I thought that was a buffet of humanity I wished I had never had to sample. Months later though its better ... kind of . The instances I now run on my 80 with it are normally successful and with out drama but are also blazingly fast and with little actual communication between players. Sense we are all usually from other servers, we don't expect to ever see each other again or have any reason to talk about anything. The latest trend with the DF is to make last minute commentary as you fade into the twisting nether between between servers. Once and a great while someone will stay long enough to say more than thx, buh-by. All this being said the DF is a very effective tool for running dungeons as if they were an assembly line but it is not a tool for social gaming.
As for the community and its issues, the problem with the wow community is for the most part the product of a slacking wow community. There are plenty of us who are rational mature individuals but instead of curbing the blah blah, WTF, QQ more community many instead just adopted their habits and gave up in game sanity thinking it was the way to get in with the hard cores and get better gear. Don't get me wrong Blizzard has made some choices that are questionable with regard to encouraging some of that mentality but to their credit they are pretty much going by what they think their subscribers want and that leads right back to us the players for being the primary influence on the community.
I honestly do not know how the DF could be tweaked to be better and still get the fast results it does [ due to inter-realm grouping it offers]. Perhaps if we had a choice whether or not to go inter-realm? It would also be nice if outdoor group quest were added.
On a funny note I used it with a 20's rogue to get some real old type grouping in for low lvl instances and it was like a flash back from the past, complete with the tank ending the group with a rousing @#$% hunger! before every one did a /ragequite. Good times!
talk about anything. The latest trend with the DF is to make last minute commentary as you fade into the twisting nether between between servers. Once and a great while someone will stay long enough to say more than thx, buh-by. All this being said the DF is a very effective tool for running dungeons as if they were an assembly line but it is not a tool for social gaming.
As for the community and its issues, the problem with the wow community is for the most part the product of a slacking wow community. There are plenty of us who are rational mature individuals but instead of curbing the blah blah, WTF, QQ more community many instead just adopted their habits and gave up in game sanity thinking it was the way to get in with the hard cores and get better gear. Don't get me wrong Blizzard has made some choices that are questionable with regard to encouraging some of that mentality but to their credit they are pretty much going by what they think their subscribers want and that leads right back to us the players for being the primary influence on the community.
I honestly do not know how the DF could be tweaked to be better and still get the fast results it does [ due to inter-realm grouping it offers]. Perhaps if we had a choice whether or not to go inter-realm? It would also be nice if outdoor group quest were added.
On a funny note I used it with a 20's rogue to get some real old type grouping in for low lvl instances and it was like a flash back from the past, complete with the tank ending the group with a rousing @#$% hunger! before every one did a /ragequite.
Communities in WoW aren't dead, whether or not you like to accept it as one the trade chat on some realms is a community of people who regularly log on to chat there. The community you percieve can also be affected by the friends you make, if you refuse to make friends that's on you, but can also be determined by your in-game peers, by this I mean guild mostly.
I don't think any of the posters meant a dead community in that there isn't communication, which is how it appears you took it (I could be wrong)- what I mean (and believe other posters do as well) is that the community is just bad; unredeemably bad, unfixably bad. It certainly isn't anything I'd expect to see in a MMORPG, perhaps yahoo chat or in Xbox live but nothing with RPG in the genre. Before I quit the only chat channels I left active was guild chat and tells. Everything else completely killed immersion.
Unfortunately you cannot filter out children and assholes. You can only ignore them after the fact. This is the free speech effect - sometimes people say things or act the way you do not like/approve. If you cannot handle that, I suggest you stop playing INET games, stop watching TV and communicating with people alltogether. That way you will be safe from annoyances like stupid anal jokes, emo-rage kids or just plain antisocial punks.
First things first, the Tool. is in my opinion a great addition, fit for the mechanics of WoW, specially for a new player or new character leveling up, getting groups for Uldaman and Scarlet Monastery was not an easy fit, most kids wanted to be run through by a 60 (back at the time when I was leveling Cap was 60), and most adults already had their niche of friends more often than not part of the same guild as themselves, not interested in contributing to the success of anyone outside their own guild.
Which brings us to the point I really agree with in this article, you cannot destroy something that does not exist, that cannot be more true for WOW. Because WoW does not have an in-game community, it only has a Forum Idea of a Community. And while we may want to present this as the "norm" of MMO's, it is not, I have played many other MMO's that preceded WoW starting with the one that started it all, UO that had In-game Communities...this is an element that has been lost with time...and wow has actually contributed in to turning a real in-game community in to an illusion.
In UO, our guild used to be part of something bigger than itself, a Community of Guilds and Individuals, you would visit their cities they would visit yours you would go adventuring with their member and they with ours, we would go to battle together and would bleed together and would then celebrate our victories together or lick our wounds, over some nice food and drink by a fire place or on the top of a well decorated Tower...in game (not on some forum).
We would make plans together and we would make these plans a reality, in short we would play the game together, because we all shared more than just the meta-game, we shared its world.
In WoW, guilds do not need to have that kind of relationship with one another, and each guild can be a self contained bubble. becaus ethe only thing to share about wow is the meta-game informaton (in other words Information about the game), the game itself does not need to be shared with anyone.
Therefore, it is only nromal that people will use the tools which are more efficient for the task at hand, and forums are more efficient about sharing the mata-game than tryuing to do it in general or any other in game chat.
Simply put, WoW is nto agame that has an in game community it is all outside the game and it is all about the game and not the game itself, and this is one of the reasons why personally I cannot play it for any extended time frame, the game simply bores me, Lich King got me bored in 2 months.
Which brings us back to the Dungeon Finder, it, in and of itself is not a problem, it within the mechanics of the endgame is. While it facilitates grouping, Blizzard has also used it as a measuring tool, and implemented it within a repetitive tred mill of endlessly repeating instances over and over and over to get to the candy (the Gear).
I did all of the Dungeons (or Instances as the newer players call them) in Normal mode, 2-3 times, then repeated them in Heroic Mode, by the 5th time ... all interest and fun there was had long faded, and for waht, so I can go to my guild and say "I just got a new Chest (Leggins, bracers etc)..*link*" and hear the "grats and the ooohs and the Ahhhs"...common please this has gotten really old.
This is not adeventuring anymore, it is Grocery store Shoping "Oh I found a sweet deal on Brocoli!"... and on top of it there is no in game community.
The game is just not worth anyone's time anymore.
A post full of valid details and information. However, judging from your frustration, I'm guessing you simple burned out or had high expectations. The things you are describing (gear farming, instance farming, exp farmin) are the basics of the MMORPG genre. I mean, what else is this game for? This game is all about raising your char to top level, then equipping your char to the best gear. You might wanna sidestep and do some trade skills or some PvP, but that is optional. After you get your toon to level 80, equip with the best gear, there is nothing else to do. Either you help others do the same (thats where the community factor kicks in) or you just go and PvP or you create an alt and repeat the whole process from the beginning.
What do you expect from a MMORPG? a constantly changing dynamic world with non-repeatable and unique quests? There is a game that fills those requirements - its called life. However, its too realistic, it has permadeath and it has severe consequences for breaking/bending game rules.
The community in WoW exists - im part of it. It is in a form of guilds doing things together. helping leveling, doing quests, making items, doing some raids, chit-chat, and other things. If you expect a real life relationship from a fantasy game - you will most likely be disappointed. Its just a game, not a life replacement.
I'll start off by saying I'm not currently playing WoW. But I played it solidly for several years and I'm not in love with this Dungeon Finder idea.
I think the automation is a huge step too far. Sure, offer automation as a choice for those who don't mind it, but automatically assemling a cross-server group? PUGs were so often a drag. Most players on my ignore list were added after PUGs. But I also added a lot of players to my friends list too.
City of Heroes has always had an excellent team finding tool/interface. WoW would have done well to copy it. It's way better than a LFG channel and better too, I think, than WoW's Dungeon Finder sounds. The ability to grab players from other servers is nice but, IMO, would be a last resort for me if I was assembling a group.
I'll start off by saying I'm not currently playing WoW. But I played it solidly for several years and I'm not in love with this Dungeon Finder idea.
I think the automation is a huge step too far. Sure, offer automation as a choice for those who don't mind it, but automatically assemling a cross-server group? PUGs were so often a drag. Most players on my ignore list were added after PUGs. But I also added a lot of players to my friends list too.
People who no longer play a game and "theorise" about how it is supposed to be played now, should take a step back as they lack so much elements to evaluate the game.
First: the cross server LFG tool is complemented with on server weekly raid quests, which are not even used by the LFG tool.
Since the tool actually you see ... MORE people in the chats to assemble groups.
So there are much more valid and active tools in WOTLK which actually encourages on server grouping.
The tool is a fill up mechanism.
I can bring in my brother and with 2 we can find the other 3. No matter how you turn it, everything stays the same ... except the group is much quicker formed. Period.
Add the guild leveling in CATA (both Pve/pvP) and I actually don't see any problem with the necessary world Archeology profession for the Path of Glory end leveling either.
In WOW: you always look at ALL the introduced mechanics and how they are integrated within each other.
Old, ex players have mostly no clue what they talk about (like dual specs, in game gear changers with one click, LFG tools, level just by doing PvP, experience off/on options, joins BG's from anywhere, fly and land anywhere, etc ...).
When you view all available playing tools and play IN the game for at least a few months, you can see why these tools have their meaning, despite of what people say (that don't even play).
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
The biggest problem is that there is not gameplay mechanics in place in most MMOs that actually encourage a community. There are no conceptual ideas in WoW that encourage a group of players to hang out at a tavern or to meet there. There are no persistent concepts that encourage players to place objects in the game world whether it be to show off their home, or to sell a product, or for some other purpose that while not necesarily essential in the MMO to level, gain experience, or raise a skill it is essential for social development; and in my opinion essential to be called an MMORPG.
With that said, I continue to express that most of the so called MMORPGs out there today are, in fact, not MMORPGs at all.
To create a social community there has to be an environment that encourages players to communicate or to interact. You cannot force a player to do that you must encourage it. By creating these featueres there will be incredible communities springing to life.
I think too much goes into MMOs these days that does not encourage players to do things, instead, we see to much of these random dungeon tool concepts while convenient do nothing in the way of community.
This right here. Today, if it doesn't help you level or give you gear, players start bashing the game up and down for having "worthless features" and spouting off other ignorant statements. Player housing is all but forgotten, and there is generally little to no reason to ever revisit lower level zones. Additionally, as games become more instanced, everyone is sequestered away in their own little pocket of e-space, rather than coming together at open world focal points. The lack of things to do besides grind and gear also effects the overall depth of the game, namely, games without "secondary" things to do are utterly shallow.
Additionally, anyone saying that this kind of feature doesn't kill the community is fooling themselves. The effect is lessened in the case that WoW had a terrible mash of bodies that someone with a twisted sense of humor might call a "community" in the first place so there wasn't much to destroy. WAR proved quite well how quickly world queue scenario shit like this can run a game into the ground.
Games without the secondary thing are definitely shallow, but I will say that player housing is not all but forgotten merely unused due primarily to a lack of innovation. I also contend that while there are many that enjoy the features you mention an equal number prefer something different like player housing for example, this amazingly enough has been proven.
Regardless, my point was that the tool is convenient but does not do anything in the way of building, sustaining, helping, or nuturing a community. I agree with the article in that WoW never had a community to begin with so. /shrug
I'm LOVING the LFG tool, but for more than one reason.
One reason I'm enjoying it is because of the diversity of people that you see. Some of the diversity is very, very funny.
On my level 35 hunter I stayed in the group with a tank that I'm pretty sure was higher than a kite. He consistently pulled too many mobs, lost aggro, ran in circles aimlessly and even fell off some ledges, training 50 mobs back to the group. When you talk to him, he ignored you. People would swear at him, call him an r-tard and everything else, then bail. I stayed in the group and just watched more people who were using the LFG tool join our group...not having a clue what they were about to experience. I was on the floor laughing in anticipation waiting for the rest of the group to find out how hilarious (bad) this tank was. After one particular wipe, I told a rogue in my group "Don't leave...I"ve been in group with this guy for an hour...he's pure comedy! He's destroyed every group so far!!" The rogue stuck around and enjoyed the hilarity with me. Of course, we didn't die because I could just feign death or shadowmeld, and the rogue would just vanish when it got bad. One of us would say, "Here comes the fail!" as that tank got everyone else killed.
I was so sad when the tank left the group...although it was in the middle of pull.
I like the dungeon and pvp que I play with lots of my friends but were all dif level this gives me a chance to play and have more to talk about cuz iv done more of the dungeons
I was a part of early mmo's and your "community" is what i hated the most for every tight knit group of people that play MMO's there are a thousand blathering retards that i would rather have nothing to do with. I Like the dungeon finder feature because i have to deal with idiots a lot less. I dont have to read through mounds of rediculous crap in LFG because trolls and morons with little to no social skills love to sit in that chat channel and talk shit. So a feature that cuts the bullshit out of me trying to have fun is a fantastic feature, your rose tinted glasses are broken your "community" of old is built of the same crap that newer communities are built of. I dont read chat channels and do not participate in general chat at all never have mainly because the collective IQ of those channels never comes close to 80. So to you and every other person taht constantly whines about how older games were so awesome go back and play them if you gather all the people on these forums that constantly cry about it you will have your "community" back.
Comments
There are many ideas in this article in reality.
First things first, the Tool. is in my opinion a great addition, fit for the mechanics of WoW, specially for a new player or new character leveling up, getting groups for Uldaman and Scarlet Monastery was not an easy fit, most kids wanted to be run through by a 60 (back at the time when I was leveling Cap was 60), and most adults already had their niche of friends more often than not part of the same guild as themselves, not interested in contributing to the success of anyone outside their own guild.
Which brings us to the point I really agree with in this article, you cannot destroy something that does not exist, that cannot be more true for WOW. Because WoW does not have an in-game community, it only has a Forum Idea of a Community. And while we may want to present this as the "norm" of MMO's, it is not, I have played many other MMO's that preceded WoW starting with the one that started it all, UO that had In-game Communities...this is an element that has been lost with time...and wow has actually contributed in to turning a real in-game community in to an illusion.
In UO, our guild used to be part of something bigger than itself, a Community of Guilds and Individuals, you would visit their cities they would visit yours you would go adventuring with their member and they with ours, we would go to battle together and would bleed together and would then celebrate our victories together or lick our wounds, over some nice food and drink by a fire place or on the top of a well decorated Tower...in game (not on some forum).
We would make plans together and we would make these plans a reality, in short we would play the game together, because we all shared more than just the meta-game, we shared its world.
In WoW, guilds do not need to have that kind of relationship with one another, and each guild can be a self contained bubble. becaus ethe only thing to share about wow is the meta-game informaton (in other words Information about the game), the game itself does not need to be shared with anyone.
Therefore, it is only nromal that people will use the tools which are more efficient for the task at hand, and forums are more efficient about sharing the mata-game than tryuing to do it in general or any other in game chat.
Simply put, WoW is nto agame that has an in game community it is all outside the game and it is all about the game and not the game itself, and this is one of the reasons why personally I cannot play it for any extended time frame, the game simply bores me, Lich King got me bored in 2 months.
Which brings us back to the Dungeon Finder, it, in and of itself is not a problem, it within the mechanics of the endgame is. While it facilitates grouping, Blizzard has also used it as a measuring tool, and implemented it within a repetitive tred mill of endlessly repeating instances over and over and over to get to the candy (the Gear).
I did all of the Dungeons (or Instances as the newer players call them) in Normal mode, 2-3 times, then repeated them in Heroic Mode, by the 5th time ... all interest and fun there was had long faded, and for waht, so I can go to my guild and say "I just got a new Chest (Leggins, bracers etc)..*link*" and hear the "grats and the ooohs and the Ahhhs"...common please this has gotten really old.
This is not adeventuring anymore, it is Grocery store Shoping "Oh I found a sweet deal on Brocoli!"... and on top of it there is no in game community.
The game is just not worth anyone's time anymore.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
This is absolutely true even if some people refuse to understand it.
A simple example would be the automated auction mechanics in newer games as opposed to old games in which people had to do their buying and selling by dealing directly with others. Auction houses are convenient and easy but in using them an entire dimension of social interaction is lost.
You are absolutely correct that the design of a mmo directly affects the social side of it. Anyone who can't see that is being deliberately obtuse.
Several people (including me) were requesting this exact tool in WoW 3 years before they ever released it. Glad they listened to us because it's nice to have.
Because it didn't make sense to have it for battlegrounds and not have it for instances.
This right here. Today, if it doesn't help you level or give you gear, players start bashing the game up and down for having "worthless features" and spouting off other ignorant statements. Player housing is all but forgotten, and there is generally little to no reason to ever revisit lower level zones. Additionally, as games become more instanced, everyone is sequestered away in their own little pocket of e-space, rather than coming together at open world focal points. The lack of things to do besides grind and gear also effects the overall depth of the game, namely, games without "secondary" things to do are utterly shallow.
Additionally, anyone saying that this kind of feature doesn't kill the community is fooling themselves. The effect is lessened in the case that WoW had a terrible mash of bodies that someone with a twisted sense of humor might call a "community" in the first place so there wasn't much to destroy. WAR proved quite well how quickly world queue scenario shit like this can run a game into the ground.
Bans a perma, but so are sigs in necro posts.
EAT ME MMORPG.com!
"If we liked someone, we couldn't invite them back into a group, or into a guild, or even chat with them; if we hated someone, we had no way of blacklisting them or making their reputation as a horrible player known."
This is not true and shows the author has only partial understanding about WoW's Dungeon Finder. You can infact ignore people from another server with the added benefit that for the future you will never be queued tagether with the blacklisted character. Reputation wise - you can tell your friends to put that person on ignore. And even more - if you feel like being petty and pathetic, you could make a lv1 character on their server and trash them in trade chanel all you want.
People keep saying that "WoW has no community" and "you cannot destroy what did not exist". While true now, it was not always so. In classic WoW there was a great community on my server (PvP). I was easily able to get groups for all the dungeons at level appropriate and met a lot of great people on my way to 60. I didn't join a guild until I was 60 for the simple reason that I didn't need to - the general community provided me with what I needed. Groups were not hard to find, world pvp was not hard to find, a few people to group together while doing the same quests (especially in STV) was not hard to find. There were some great rivalries between guilds and we had certain guilds that were KoS no matter what. Community played a massive reason in why I played the game and why I continued to play for so long.
Everyone would agree that this is no longer the case in WoW. Now is it simply the case that the longer an MMO exists the less important the community becomes? Is it that society has changed and people are now focused on instant and individual rewards, making gameplay much more insualar? Or is it just that WoW changed so much over time that the people who were interested in "community" just left the game and we are left with people who either don't care about community or actively don't want one to exist.
The LFD is a great tool for a game like WoW. To have it implemented in a new MMO from launch day would, however, be an absolute disaster in my opinion.
Over time the will of the community and the dedication of the player base on a server will get diluted. I remember Argent Dawn being a much better server when I joined it a month or two after launch than it was when I left it. The Laurelin server (lotro) was a true RP server at launch, with strict adherence to naming policy. The other day I ran into a player called “Motorneurondisease”, an example of how far the server has fallen. I still regard Laurelin as one of the best RP servers around, but that is reflection of how little RP there is in MMO’s these days, it is a mediocre RP server that only looks good as the rest are so poor.
WoW is lacking so much in other gameplay areas, it is trivial to discuss about the Dungeon Finder tool. A better question would be, when are they going to make the game appeal to casuals (it does now) and more demanding players?
And when is the equipment grinding going to end? It is already annoying (and futile) as hell.
I know, some may say Cataclysm will change the face of WoW...lets wait and see.
I was really skeptical about the dungeon finder too. The first time I tried it a member initiated a kick vote for the group leader with in seconds of getting into the dungeon. The second time one of the members kept making "hands in pants" references. To quote Bladezz from the Guild , I thought that was a buffet of humanity I wished I had never had to sample. Months later though its better ... kind of . The instances I now run on my 80 with it are normally successful and with out drama but are also blazingly fast and with little actual communication between players. Sense we are all usually from other servers, we don't expect to ever see each other again or have any reason to talk about anything. The latest trend with the DF is to make last minute commentary as you fade into the twisting nether between between servers. Once and a great while someone will stay long enough to say more than thx, buh-by. All this being said the DF is a very effective tool for running dungeons as if they were an assembly line but it is not a tool for social gaming.
As for the community and its issues, the problem with the wow community is for the most part the product of a slacking wow community. There are plenty of us who are rational mature individuals but instead of curbing the blah blah, WTF, QQ more community many instead just adopted their habits and gave up in game sanity thinking it was the way to get in with the hard cores and get better gear. Don't get me wrong Blizzard has made some choices that are questionable with regard to encouraging some of that mentality but to their credit they are pretty much going by what they think their subscribers want and that leads right back to us the players for being the primary influence on the community.
I honestly do not know how the DF could be tweaked to be better and still get the fast results it does [ due to inter-realm grouping it offers]. Perhaps if we had a choice whether or not to go inter-realm? It would also be nice if outdoor group quest were added.
On a funny note I used it with a 20's rogue to get some real old type grouping in for low lvl instances and it was like a flash back from the past, complete with the tank ending the group with a rousing @#$% hunger! before every one did a /ragequite. Good times!
talk about anything. The latest trend with the DF is to make last minute commentary as you fade into the twisting nether between between servers. Once and a great while someone will stay long enough to say more than thx, buh-by. All this being said the DF is a very effective tool for running dungeons as if they were an assembly line but it is not a tool for social gaming.
As for the community and its issues, the problem with the wow community is for the most part the product of a slacking wow community. There are plenty of us who are rational mature individuals but instead of curbing the blah blah, WTF, QQ more community many instead just adopted their habits and gave up in game sanity thinking it was the way to get in with the hard cores and get better gear. Don't get me wrong Blizzard has made some choices that are questionable with regard to encouraging some of that mentality but to their credit they are pretty much going by what they think their subscribers want and that leads right back to us the players for being the primary influence on the community.
I honestly do not know how the DF could be tweaked to be better and still get the fast results it does [ due to inter-realm grouping it offers]. Perhaps if we had a choice whether or not to go inter-realm? It would also be nice if outdoor group quest were added.
On a funny note I used it with a 20's rogue to get some real old type grouping in for low lvl instances and it was like a flash back from the past, complete with the tank ending the group with a rousing @#$% hunger! before every one did a /ragequite.
Good times!
Unfortunately you cannot filter out children and assholes. You can only ignore them after the fact. This is the free speech effect - sometimes people say things or act the way you do not like/approve. If you cannot handle that, I suggest you stop playing INET games, stop watching TV and communicating with people alltogether. That way you will be safe from annoyances like stupid anal jokes, emo-rage kids or just plain antisocial punks.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
A post full of valid details and information. However, judging from your frustration, I'm guessing you simple burned out or had high expectations. The things you are describing (gear farming, instance farming, exp farmin) are the basics of the MMORPG genre. I mean, what else is this game for? This game is all about raising your char to top level, then equipping your char to the best gear. You might wanna sidestep and do some trade skills or some PvP, but that is optional. After you get your toon to level 80, equip with the best gear, there is nothing else to do. Either you help others do the same (thats where the community factor kicks in) or you just go and PvP or you create an alt and repeat the whole process from the beginning.
What do you expect from a MMORPG? a constantly changing dynamic world with non-repeatable and unique quests? There is a game that fills those requirements - its called life. However, its too realistic, it has permadeath and it has severe consequences for breaking/bending game rules.
The community in WoW exists - im part of it. It is in a form of guilds doing things together. helping leveling, doing quests, making items, doing some raids, chit-chat, and other things. If you expect a real life relationship from a fantasy game - you will most likely be disappointed. Its just a game, not a life replacement.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
I'll start off by saying I'm not currently playing WoW. But I played it solidly for several years and I'm not in love with this Dungeon Finder idea.
I think the automation is a huge step too far. Sure, offer automation as a choice for those who don't mind it, but automatically assemling a cross-server group? PUGs were so often a drag. Most players on my ignore list were added after PUGs. But I also added a lot of players to my friends list too.
City of Heroes has always had an excellent team finding tool/interface. WoW would have done well to copy it. It's way better than a LFG channel and better too, I think, than WoW's Dungeon Finder sounds. The ability to grab players from other servers is nice but, IMO, would be a last resort for me if I was assembling a group.
People who no longer play a game and "theorise" about how it is supposed to be played now, should take a step back as they lack so much elements to evaluate the game.
First: the cross server LFG tool is complemented with on server weekly raid quests, which are not even used by the LFG tool.
Since the tool actually you see ... MORE people in the chats to assemble groups.
So there are much more valid and active tools in WOTLK which actually encourages on server grouping.
The tool is a fill up mechanism.
I can bring in my brother and with 2 we can find the other 3. No matter how you turn it, everything stays the same ... except the group is much quicker formed. Period.
Add the guild leveling in CATA (both Pve/pvP) and I actually don't see any problem with the necessary world Archeology profession for the Path of Glory end leveling either.
In WOW: you always look at ALL the introduced mechanics and how they are integrated within each other.
Old, ex players have mostly no clue what they talk about (like dual specs, in game gear changers with one click, LFG tools, level just by doing PvP, experience off/on options, joins BG's from anywhere, fly and land anywhere, etc ...).
When you view all available playing tools and play IN the game for at least a few months, you can see why these tools have their meaning, despite of what people say (that don't even play).
Want a real mmorpg? Play WOW with experience turned off mode and be Pve_Pvp King at any level without a rat race.
Real nice article from miss Skelton.
Games without the secondary thing are definitely shallow, but I will say that player housing is not all but forgotten merely unused due primarily to a lack of innovation. I also contend that while there are many that enjoy the features you mention an equal number prefer something different like player housing for example, this amazingly enough has been proven.
Regardless, my point was that the tool is convenient but does not do anything in the way of building, sustaining, helping, or nuturing a community. I agree with the article in that WoW never had a community to begin with so. /shrug
I'm LOVING the LFG tool, but for more than one reason.
One reason I'm enjoying it is because of the diversity of people that you see. Some of the diversity is very, very funny.
On my level 35 hunter I stayed in the group with a tank that I'm pretty sure was higher than a kite. He consistently pulled too many mobs, lost aggro, ran in circles aimlessly and even fell off some ledges, training 50 mobs back to the group. When you talk to him, he ignored you. People would swear at him, call him an r-tard and everything else, then bail. I stayed in the group and just watched more people who were using the LFG tool join our group...not having a clue what they were about to experience. I was on the floor laughing in anticipation waiting for the rest of the group to find out how hilarious (bad) this tank was. After one particular wipe, I told a rogue in my group "Don't leave...I"ve been in group with this guy for an hour...he's pure comedy! He's destroyed every group so far!!" The rogue stuck around and enjoyed the hilarity with me. Of course, we didn't die because I could just feign death or shadowmeld, and the rogue would just vanish when it got bad. One of us would say, "Here comes the fail!" as that tank got everyone else killed.
I was so sad when the tank left the group...although it was in the middle of pull.
I like the dungeon and pvp que I play with lots of my friends but were all dif level this gives me a chance to play and have more to talk about cuz iv done more of the dungeons
I was a part of early mmo's and your "community" is what i hated the most for every tight knit group of people that play MMO's there are a thousand blathering retards that i would rather have nothing to do with. I Like the dungeon finder feature because i have to deal with idiots a lot less. I dont have to read through mounds of rediculous crap in LFG because trolls and morons with little to no social skills love to sit in that chat channel and talk shit. So a feature that cuts the bullshit out of me trying to have fun is a fantastic feature, your rose tinted glasses are broken your "community" of old is built of the same crap that newer communities are built of. I dont read chat channels and do not participate in general chat at all never have mainly because the collective IQ of those channels never comes close to 80. So to you and every other person taht constantly whines about how older games were so awesome go back and play them if you gather all the people on these forums that constantly cry about it you will have your "community" back.
server merges = full population servers > looking for what tool
Generation P