Ah finally, my favorite major topic in any MMO which is often treated as the annoying step child but now gets a bit attention.
Basically I like to craft because I like to MAKE things - rather than destroy or conquer them. I do that in real life, in spare time, no matter, my hubby called me once "project-mad". Websites, Lego, MMOs, no matter, just creating something and see others have fun with is a big reward for me. And that draws me to crafting.
The best crafting systems in my opinion are atitd for its player skill orientation. Even though it is very time consuming and tool dependent soon. EQ2 because of the huge number of things you can make which doesn't take too long and still makes a profit even without maxing it easily. And Vanguard for the strategy involved in the action point pool based mini game. Plus Free Realms is nice when it comes to cooking, melting etc. which all work with mouse gestures. That is nice! And yes, UO was nice too, especially the parts where it got out of the interface and inside the world like wood chopping. Imagine fighting in an interface window, who would like to do that???
It annoys me to no end why crafting should be tedious per se. Most people as in EQ2 could make huge amounts of money with the level they have and still don't craft because they don't enjoy it. Leveling it is boring like hell. Why is that? Farmville needs no levels, just a bit of dedication here and there and millions of people do it and basically it is a crafting game. Still it is pretty dull and simplified but fun enough. You exchange things all the time with fellow players, they help you "craft" better...
So why isn't someone finally picking crafting up as the major (!) component of a game for fun and attractiveness it can be? and not just the "Oh yes and we have crafting too, just on a side note, but it is tedious by intent of course". That is the most stupid design idea ever. Most people don't like crafting per se and you can always add dumps like pawnbroker or what to get rid of the items. Of course getting the money levelled out is more difficult if (god beware) many player would craft like hell because it is as much fun oriented as combat is. But difficulties are there to overcome by good design and not avoid by making the feature boring.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.
Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.
Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Originally posted by SlineerAs in PvE oriented games, you need to get something for killing the monster and if you just got better stuff from a crafter, whats the point??
In that other player made thread called "what is your utopian crafting system" one of the posters mentions that boss drops should things that master crafters could use.
I really think that is the way to go. So you kill a boss and get some sort of old legendary sword. The sword is not usable but a master crafter coud salvage its metal, gems, what have you and make something else.
That was actually introduced into Horizons/Istaria but pretty late, broken/damaged gear you needed a crafter to repair before being able to use it. Seemed to suit all types of players, people liked it.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
The original crafting system in Vanguard was hands down my favorite. Tons of things that only crafters could make. A nice complex system of making slight variations on items. Boats were awesome, tons of crafted housing components and items. Every crafted item had a tag showing who made it. I havent seen a crafting system even close to it in other games.
But... then the dreaded sony deathtouch appeared and nerfed the heck out of virtually everything in vanguard, including crafting.
Oh really? They nerfed it? What exactly? Haven't played in ages, too much grind in diplo and "kill 100 x" drove me away too ...
But the crafting was pretty awesome.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ... Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2 Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
First let me say that in no way shape for form did SWG crafting bring on the NGE. No idea where that brain fart comes from.
IMO, if an MMO does not have player crafted items that are needed by combat toons then I would likely never play that MMO.
Crafting does not destroy or ruin PVE or PVP either, as long as the crafting system is dsigned and implemented accordingly.
SWG, even in it's current form, still has one of the best crafting systems, if not the best. The only thing that could make it better would be re-introduction of the decay system. That is what kept player crafted items in constant demand, kept the market open for new crafters, and contained inflation. NGE removed decay and thus turned many items into everlasting durable goods that crafters charge allot for assuming the will get only one sale.
The only reason more games do not have crafting is point blank the cost associated with it's design, implementation, maintenance and additions. Some of the best recent additions to SWG, since the NGE, has been the RE system, Weaponsmith changes, and Droid Engineer changes.
The other issue I see here is that combat players complain allot cause they have to get stuff from a crafter and they don't want to pay for it. In SWG we have the "those greedy crafters" comments on a regular basis. Unfortunately most of those comments are coming from players that have never rolled a crafter and never will. Thus they are totally and utterly clueless as to the effort it takes to make capped primus layered armor in SWG. In many cases in SWG, being able to make capped crafted items, or near cap, requires as much effort, or more, than that requred for a combat toon to reach max level.
If SWG were to remove crafting, I would cancel all my accounts and move on. I value the effort put into my crafters as much as my combat toons. Anyone that made a similar effort would likely feel the same.
The 15g Copper-Stack example from WoW is just a result of poor economics on the part of Blizzard. Price-fixing, much like in the real world, would just serve to REALLY mess things up.
The number-one biggest problem with WoW's economy (and many other games) is that you can just kill a mob, and it basically prints money for you. That is the very definition of inlation, an increase in the money supply. And that increase happens every time a mob dies in WoW. And since that's all you do in the game, it's massive. To make things worse, you now have daily repeatable quests that give gold, as well as gold-farmers. You're seeing a massive amount of inflation there.
The nail in that particular coffin comes in the form of their expansions. When a new expansion comes out, they dramatically increase the amount of gold and xp monsters and quests give. The reason is that they don't want you to easily make progress using now-trivial content. They want you to play the new content. So they render the old stuff obsolete by making the new stuff more rewarding.
The other big factor is that if a high-level character wants to pick up a new profession, it has to go through the motions as if he's starting from scratch. So then this means that you have high-level players with higher-level resources competing with fresh characters. So to a new character 20silver for a stack of copper seems decent, but for a high-level, 15g seems fair too. It means they don't have to spend hours grinding that mining skill up.
Combine all of these things, and what you get is 15g a stack of copper!!
If WoW allowed veteran players to bypass the lower levels of the crafting system, and skip all the useless stuff, then they wouldn't need to pay for a stack of copper. If WoW managed its money-supply properly, and didn't allow players to farm gold and essentially print money and create inflation, those high-level people won't need to pay 15g for a stack of silver.
It's just that Blizzard got the basic economics of it very wrong. That's why you're seeing these weird bubbles in their economy. Much like in real-life, the government can't handle economics.
Shortly after starting play in WoW (May '05) I started a thread in the warcraft NG about a fixed money supply (to mitigate the effects you have metioned). Heresy is not well-received by the typical MMO player, apparently.
A static money-supply is absolutely crucial. It's crucial in real life, and it's crucial in MMOs. They have a system where money gets destroyed, with things like repair-bills, reagants and whatnot. But unless they can make sure it's at a 1:1 ratio with the money that gets into the economy, you're getting inflation. Even if it is at a close to 1:1 ratio, you still have the money coming in through farmers, which will then create bubbles.
But yeah, can't really expect your average MMO-player to understand this.
granted i started playing swg in its last year before the NGE came and destroyed it
in no time when i played it was every one who enjoyed it a crafter
i was and i loved every thing about there crafting system
but most the people i sold to or interacted with were not part of the crafting comunity
but every one i talked to or heard from in the game loved it
so please although i admit crafting to me atleast was one of the greatest parts of swg (and no other game has come close to getting it right in comparosin)
please dont go claiming it was one of the reasons it died
it was a completly awsome game before they killed it with the NGE
granted you may be talking from pre-cu experince and having never seen the pre-cu i cant say anything about it
Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.
Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.
Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Yes indeed Mr Raph
That is why you folded your tent in the MMO arena, and ran off to the facebook/cell-phone arena. A slap in the face to those who chose to work for/support you.
We are talking about MMORPGs though.
You know...the type of game you comepletely screwed the pooch with in SWG by trying the social route, rather than making a content laden game ala EQ1. With one of the greatest IPs, in the world, you failed to pull the numbers of my native EQ1.
Those of us playing MMOs, prior to the launch of SWG, knew damn well to avoid the cluster-frack you created. Even before the NDA was lifted, MMO sites were getting word of just how terrible of a design you created. YOu were roasted on FoH at launch for the horrific game play.
Why? I would say cause you spun your wheels on the social BS....rather than making an actual game. All types of bugs in game....but by God you could sit in line for buffs. Bravo /sarcasm off
Now I only have an Associates in Electronics degree, coupled with almost completing a Bachelor of Computer Science during my 10 yrs of being a tech before going on disability for Crohns....but in my "limited" view I see SWG as a game where you tried to cater to everyone.. You ended up failing on par with Cryptic's current STo fiasco.
Some folks around here may idolize you Mr Koster. Others of us though are glad you no longer are in the MMO biz.
I wish you luck in scripting farm animals. /animosity off(you had that post coming since launch of SWG)
Seriously....this is what I would do to add the sand-box elements your following desires in MMOs:
These mini-games ala Farmville would probably go great in a MMO as a side-attraction. A huge themepark just isnt rides....but has side attractions as well.
You place these mini-games in social hubs ala 360's Game Room. That draws the folks that want to be there...instead of forcing the inter-dependacy. You dont focus development on them...maybe one or two at launch. Adding more....but keeping in mind that you need to crank out PVE/PVP content.
The 32 classes of SWG you could mix/match skills from....pfft only if you are on crack. I believe EQ1 still is at 16, and I only played semi- hardcore from Feb 01 to about middle of 06. You spent mega development hrs trying to balance the cluster-frack. The fewer the classes, the more you can allow skill trees in each class to differentiate folks.
Housing? You littered the game-world with it. Housing is fine....if it is designated areas. Leaving a huge-barren world for folks to build towns isnt very wise IMO. When these folks leave(and most folks eventuall leave a MMO), you are left with ghost towns where content areas could of been.
UO should of taught you that folks dont like PVP forced on them. Different servers for that. Again...you forced folks to be others content be it ganking, or forced inter-dependacy.
Raph you may do very well in the social game setting. I know when my wife is taking a break from her EQ2 fix, she enjoys Pogo. That is just it though....they are 2 different crowds. Yes they do share some ideals, but when push comes to shove the MMO market...that is the MMORPG market are doing the RPG thing. They build their chars thru either PVE or PVP.
What you tried to do was turn RPGs into sims. Wrong target audience. Which is why you may succeed this time....as your target segment will be correct. It wasnt prior.
Good day
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.
Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.
Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Yes indeed Mr Raph
That is why you folded your tent in the MMO arena, and ran off to the facebook/cell-phone arena. A slap in the face to those who chose to work for/support you.
We are talking about MMORPGs though.
You know...the type of game you comepletely screwed the pooch with in SWG by trying the social route, rather than making a content laden game ala EQ1. With one of the greatest IPs, in the world, you failed to pull the numbers of my native EQ1.
Those of us playing MMOs, prior to the launch of SWG, knew damn well to avoid the cluster-frack you created. Even before the NDA was lifted, MMO sites were getting word of just how terrible of a design you created. YOu were roasted on FoH at launch for the horrific game play.
Why? I would say cause you spun your wheels on the social BS....rather than making an actual game. All types of bugs in game....but by God you could sit in line for buffs. Bravo /sarcasm off
Now I only have an Associates in Electronics degree, coupled with almost completing a Bachelor of Computer Science during my 10 yrs of being a tech before going on disability for Crohns....but in my "limited" view I see SWG as a game where you tried to cater to everyone.. You ended up failing on par with Cryptic's current STo fiasco.
Some folks around here may idolize you Mr Koster. Others of us though are glad you no longer are in the MMO biz.
I wish you luck in scripting farm animals. /animosity off(you had that post coming since launch of SWG)
Seriously....this is what I would do to add the sand-box elements your following desires in MMOs:
These mini-games ala Farmville would probably go great in a MMO as a side-attraction. A huge themepark just isnt rides....but has side attractions as well.
You place these mini-games in social hubs ala 360's Game Room. That draws the folks that want to be there...instead of forcing the inter-dependacy. You dont focus development on them...maybe one or two at launch. Adding more....but keeping in mind that you need to crank out PVE/PVP content.
The 32 classes of SWG you could mix/match skills from....pfft only if you are on crack. I believe EQ1 still is at 16, and I only played semi- hardcore from Feb 01 to about middle of 06. You spent mega development hrs trying to balance the cluster-frack. The fewer the classes, the more you can allow skill trees in each class to differentiate folks.
Housing? You littered the game-world with it. Housing is fine....if it is designated areas. Leaving a huge-barren world for folks to build towns isnt very wise IMO. When these folks leave(and most folks eventuall leave a MMO), you are left with ghost towns where content areas could of been.
UO should of taught you that folks dont like PVP forced on them. Different servers for that. Again...you forced folks to be others content be it ganking, or forced inter-dependacy.
Raph you may do very well in the social game setting. I know when my wife is taking a break from her EQ2 fix, she enjoys Pogo. That is just it though....they are 2 different crowds. Yes they do share some ideals, but when push comes to shove the MMO market...that is the MMORPG market are doing the RPG thing. They build their chars thru either PVE or PVP.
What you tried to do was turn RPGs into sims. Wrong target audience. Which is why you may succeed this time....as your target segment will be correct. It wasnt prior.
Good day
you are wrong wrong wrong emphatically wrong and abysmally so
i just love when people who dont have a bloody clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge just how popular it was before the nge
the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
was greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had .
so they made the NGE a huge risk and it bit them in the ass and rightfully so
and if you want to claim otherwise think on this
if it didn't have the numbers of people who enjoyed it it wouldent of had the shear amount of irate customers needed to make the disaster that was the NGE hit the news, papers , and etc
I don't understand why anyone would discuss Wow in a crafting discussion. Crafting was strictly an after thought in that game, strictly just to say they had it.
Personally either SWG or UO had the best crafting systems. A good crafter became known in those games. Eve crafting became flawed when they used a lottery system for many of the advanced items.
A MMO can't be a quality one with out a decent crafting system, IMO.
I also think his categories of crafters missed at least one: craftsman - people who make stuff because they want to make things for people and be known. SWG was a great example of this, there were people who specialized in making "the best" pistols or whatever and derived great pride from being known as "the guy" to buy from.
"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge just how popular it was before the nge
the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."
Wow Inie....I already gave my background.
How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.
The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.
Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.
Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.
SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.
The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.
If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up. This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.
We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.
Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.
Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Vanguard: Saga of heroes has the best crafting. You never mentioned it.
I like FE crafting better because I feel it produces useful items conistently. Just about everything is useful ...not just to sell..but as gear. Vanguard is good for one main aspect...the process itself. It must be carefully calculated and monitored...and I like that you can try techniques that just get the job done...or spend time and take a chance on a better quality result. While you can queue up to 20 items to craft in FE (good imo because some take hours to finish)..Vanguard requires you to be at the ready...and it's fun. Two of my favorite systems for very different reasons.
I believe that Slineer pointed this out on page 1 of the comments, but I would like to confirm that Mortal Online, although it is still in beta, has an extremely deep crafting system. There are numerous possibilities as far as material combinations and component combinations and the stats of a weapon are not viewable, so crafters who want to make the best goods will either need to commit to long hours of experimentation or learn from someone who has. Additionally, 99% of equipable items in the game are not only craftable, but in fact cannot be attained through any other means. Currently, the only equipable items that need not be crafted are arrows, torches, and the gear that you start off with at character creation. Lastly, there is dynamic player housing that exists in real space which provides for the possibility of player-owned shops, each in their own unique location. Shop modules currently exist for player-owned houses, but player-owned vendors have not yet been implimented.
would of loved to try this game but i despise open pvp games
"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge just how popular it was before the nge
the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."
Wow Inie....I already gave my background.
How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.
The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.
Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.
Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.
SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.
The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.
If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up. This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.
We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.
Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.
Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P
i have a masters degree in micro electronics enginering
a certificate in stage directing and editing for tv
a bachelors in human psychology
and a bachelors in computer sciences
not to mention Microsoft certification
and a few more in animal care
and a iq of 190
and my personality is listed in my sig
and as an INTP analytical thinking is my specialty
my point is just because you have these things does not mean your any more qualified to say whats good in a game then any one hear
being an intellectual dosnt make you any more qualified then joe shmo new to gameing
and yes i am a bit too much of an egg head in RL lol :P (and yes i admit my spelling and grammer tend to suck lol :P )
and no i dont have much of a social life :P
and its less rude to not try and play the intellectual superiority game when trying to argue a point and extremely unbecoming of a true intellectual not to mention very uncouth.
but since you tried to make the challenge im more then happy to smack you down like the pup you are
that being said i do agree swg could of done well with more content god knows it needed more content
i do not argue that point
i do argue the idea that it was a bad game and one that mmo's shouldn't strive to be like
when it was a great game and one mmo's should look to when designing there crafting system
it was a masterpiece of mmo innovation and i dare say even had the potential to topple wow if they took it the right direction and kept adding content
even its 32 classes of skills system was a great innovation and far superior to the idea of being locked into a class
and worked quite well and made for far more replayablity then most mmo's have to this day
o and for your info before the NGE hit and when i joind swg its population was well over EQ's
and FYI its bad start hurt the game more then anything else
the bad word of mouth and the fact that most reviewers never updated there review of swg after its start and after they started improving and vastly so i might add are what hurt it more then any one system the game had
and the NGE was just the worse thing to happen in the perfect storm of bad publicity a ounce great and well under appreciated game had
even the fact that its story wasn't as cannon as it should of bean and the bugs it had paled in comparison to the damage the reputation from its start had
"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge just how popular it was before the nge
the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."
Wow Inie....I already gave my background.
How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.
The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.
Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.
Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.
SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.
The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.
If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up. This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.
We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.
Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.
Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P
i have a masters degree in micro electronics enginering
a certificate in stage directing and editing for tv
a bachelors in human psychology
and a bachelors in computer sciences
not to mention Microsoft certification
and a few more in animal care
and a iq of 190
and my personality is listed in my sig
and as an INTP analytical thinking is my specialty
my point is just because you have these things does not mean your any more qualified to say whats good in a game then any one hear
being an intellectual dosnt make you any more qualified then joe shmo new to gameing
and yes i am a bit too much of an egg head in RL lol :P (and yes i admit my spelling and grammer tend to suck lol :P )
and no i dont have much of a social life :P
and its less rude to not try and play the intellectual superiority game when trying to argue a point and extremely unbecoming of a true intellectual not to mention very uncouth.
but since you tried to make the challenge im more then happy to smack you down like the pup you are
that being said i do agree swg could of done well with more content god knows it needed more content
i do not argue that point
i do argue the idea that it was a bad game and one that mmo's shouldn't strive to be like
when it was a great game and one mmo's should look to when designing there crafting system
it was a masterpiece of mmo innovation and i dare say even had the potential to topple wow if they took it the right direction and kept adding content
even its 32 classes of skills system was a great innovation and far superior to the idea of being locked into a class
and worked quite well and made for far more replayablity then most mmo's have to this day
o and for your info before the NGE hit and when i joind swg its population was well over EQ's
and FYI its bad start hurt the game more then anything else
the bad word of mouth and the fact that most reviewers never updated there review of swg after its start and after they started improving and vastly so i might add are what hurt it more then any one system the game had
and the NGE was just the worse thing to happen in the perfect storm of bad publicity a ounce great and well under appreciated game had
even the fact that its story wasn't as cannon as it should of bean and the bugs it had paled in comparison to the damage the reputation from its start had
Maybe not....but considering I did make a living out of fixing things that were wrong, perhaps I have a bit of insight having gamed since the 70s.
Then again maybe the majority of MMO players back then could see the things I refer to. I told ya...read this very site if you doubt it.. A few liked it....most hated it. Do I need to link it?
Here...start on this page and work your way back....
I dont know what you are on, but SWG NEVER held the MMO title. Maybe in your fantasy it did. I dont know where you went to school, but 300k isnt a greater number than 450k. 300k is what SWG held at launch....and went downhill from there. EQ held high sub numbers until the launch of WoW. And at no time did a NA MMO surpass it until the launch of WoW.
Anybody with the slightest mathmatical apptitude would realize it is easier to design/balance content for a few classes vs the 32 "iconic" proffesions had at launch.
Anyways enough of the tangent....as stated prior...I believe EQ1 had tradeskills right. Something that adds to the game...not something to center a game around.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge just how popular it was before the nge
the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."
Wow Inie....I already gave my background.
How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.
The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.
Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.
Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.
SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.
The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.
If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up. This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.
We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.
Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.
Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P
i have a masters degree in micro electronics enginering
a certificate in stage directing and editing for tv
a bachelors in human psychology
and a bachelors in computer sciences
not to mention Microsoft certification
and a few more in animal care
and a iq of 190
and my personality is listed in my sig
and as an INTP analytical thinking is my specialty
my point is just because you have these things does not mean your any more qualified to say whats good in a game then any one hear
being an intellectual dosnt make you any more qualified then joe shmo new to gameing
and yes i am a bit too much of an egg head in RL lol :P (and yes i admit my spelling and grammer tend to suck lol :P )
and no i dont have much of a social life :P
and its less rude to not try and play the intellectual superiority game when trying to argue a point and extremely unbecoming of a true intellectual not to mention very uncouth.
but since you tried to make the challenge im more then happy to smack you down like the pup you are
that being said i do agree swg could of done well with more content god knows it needed more content
i do not argue that point
i do argue the idea that it was a bad game and one that mmo's shouldn't strive to be like
when it was a great game and one mmo's should look to when designing there crafting system
it was a masterpiece of mmo innovation and i dare say even had the potential to topple wow if they took it the right direction and kept adding content
even its 32 classes of skills system was a great innovation and far superior to the idea of being locked into a class
and worked quite well and made for far more replayablity then most mmo's have to this day
o and for your info before the NGE hit and when i joind swg its population was well over EQ's
and FYI its bad start hurt the game more then anything else
the bad word of mouth and the fact that most reviewers never updated there review of swg after its start and after they started improving and vastly so i might add are what hurt it more then any one system the game had
and the NGE was just the worse thing to happen in the perfect storm of bad publicity a ounce great and well under appreciated game had
even the fact that its story wasn't as cannon as it should of bean and the bugs it had paled in comparison to the damage the reputation from its start had
Maybe not....but considering I did make a living out of fixing things that were wrong, perhaps I have a bit of insight having gamed since the 70s.
Then again maybe the majority of MMO players back then could see the things I refer to. I told ya...read this very site if you doubt it.. A few liked it....most hated it. Do I need to link it?
Here...start on this page and work your way back....
I dont know what you are on, but SWG NEVER held the MMO title. Maybe in your fantasy it did. I dont know where you went to school, but 300k isnt a greater number than 450k. 300k is what SWG held at launch....and went downhill from there. EQ held high sub numbers until the launch of WoW. And at no time did a NA MMO surpass it until the launch of WoW.
Anybody with the slightest mathmatical apptitude would realize it is easier to design/balance content for a few classes vs the 32 "iconic" proffesions had at launch.
Anyways enough of the tangent....as stated prior...I believe EQ1 had tradeskills right. Something that adds to the game...not something to center a game around.
never held the title mmo O.o what drugs are you on and can i have some
get off your high horse and do some real god damn research before someone pushes you off it after all the fall might hurt
it did at one point out do EQ in population
oooo playing since the 70s what an achievement since any one hear over 35 has probably bean playing something or other that long
granted i started around 83
and guess what buddy boy your not the only one hear who has worked in the gaming industry
This off the main discussion page as it is a current thread. I forget the name of the other site that used to track subs as well. Until WoW launched, EQ ruled the MMO world in NA. Which is shown here, and on the other site I mentioned(MMOdata.com or something to that effect).
SOE NEVER....I repeat NEVER referred to SWG as the number one subbed MMO during those yrs. It might....repeat might have lauded it over boxes sold....but SWG never held the sub title during that timeframe. The retention rate during the first month was dismal.
It sold a ton of boxes....but the majority didnt sign up for first month subs.
Now go away little troll fan-boi. Sorry to burst your wittle bubble with facts.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Crafting isa niche of a niche...and thus should be given minimal support. You dont revolve a MMO world around it.
Not if you wanna appeal to the masses anyways.
Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.
Yes indeed Mr Raph
That is why you folded your tent in the MMO arena, and ran off to the facebook/cell-phone arena. A slap in the face to those who chose to work for/support you.
We are talking about MMORPGs though.
You know...the type of game you comepletely screwed the pooch with in SWG by trying the social route, rather than making a content laden game ala EQ1. With one of the greatest IPs, in the world, you failed to pull the numbers of my native EQ1.
Those of us playing MMOs, prior to the launch of SWG, knew damn well to avoid the cluster-frack you created. Even before the NDA was lifted, MMO sites were getting word of just how terrible of a design you created. YOu were roasted on FoH at launch for the horrific game play.
Why? I would say cause you spun your wheels on the social BS....rather than making an actual game. All types of bugs in game....but by God you could sit in line for buffs. Bravo /sarcasm off
Now I only have an Associates in Electronics degree, coupled with almost completing a Bachelor of Computer Science during my 10 yrs of being a tech before going on disability for Crohns....but in my "limited" view I see SWG as a game where you tried to cater to everyone.. You ended up failing on par with Cryptic's current STo fiasco.
Some folks around here may idolize you Mr Koster. Others of us though are glad you no longer are in the MMO biz.
I wish you luck in scripting farm animals. /animosity off(you had that post coming since launch of SWG)
Seriously....this is what I would do to add the sand-box elements your following desires in MMOs:
These mini-games ala Farmville would probably go great in a MMO as a side-attraction. A huge themepark just isnt rides....but has side attractions as well.
You place these mini-games in social hubs ala 360's Game Room. That draws the folks that want to be there...instead of forcing the inter-dependacy. You dont focus development on them...maybe one or two at launch. Adding more....but keeping in mind that you need to crank out PVE/PVP content.
The 32 classes of SWG you could mix/match skills from....pfft only if you are on crack. I believe EQ1 still is at 16, and I only played semi- hardcore from Feb 01 to about middle of 06. You spent mega development hrs trying to balance the cluster-frack. The fewer the classes, the more you can allow skill trees in each class to differentiate folks.
Housing? You littered the game-world with it. Housing is fine....if it is designated areas. Leaving a huge-barren world for folks to build towns isnt very wise IMO. When these folks leave(and most folks eventuall leave a MMO), you are left with ghost towns where content areas could of been.
UO should of taught you that folks dont like PVP forced on them. Different servers for that. Again...you forced folks to be others content be it ganking, or forced inter-dependacy.
Raph you may do very well in the social game setting. I know when my wife is taking a break from her EQ2 fix, she enjoys Pogo. That is just it though....they are 2 different crowds. Yes they do share some ideals, but when push comes to shove the MMO market...that is the MMORPG market are doing the RPG thing. They build their chars thru either PVE or PVP.
What you tried to do was turn RPGs into sims. Wrong target audience. Which is why you may succeed this time....as your target segment will be correct. It wasnt prior.
Good day
Thank god you don't make MMO's based on your opinion of SWG. Anyway crafting in games today for the most part just seem to be a after thought. I also notice the last few years these games that pretty much ignore crafting have failed in the north america market. It's time for MMO's to give us a complete game with combat and crafting getting equal content.
I don't know the numbers of Fallen Earth but they get good ratings here and their game has deep crafting. Maybe there is hope yet.
A static money-supply is absolutely crucial. It's crucial in real life, and it's crucial in MMOs.
QFT! I mean, just look at all of those MMOs that failed utterly without making any profit at all because they left out the "absolutely crucial" element of a static money supply: UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, RO, EVE, SWG, FFXI, COH/COV, L2, EQ2, WOW, GW, DDO, WAR... every one of 'em! I mean, I could go on for hours.
You would think that with a static money supply being so absolutely crucial that at some point the developer of a major MMO would think to put it in. What a bunch of dum-dums!
I would love to see a mmorpg with an indepth and meaningful crafting game. I think it's something completely overlooked.
Horizons had a huge crafting game. Not just weapons and armor, but you had to build your own housing, silos, woodshops, blacksmith shops, guild houses, fences,dragon lairs...even your own trees where made through transmuted materials. The only problem was the lack of players...and a massive grind to collect materials.
Vanguard has some good ideas too. They streamlined some of Horizon's ideas and tried to make crafting into it's own mini game which would determine whether you successfully crafted said item and of what quality it was. Big proble was all the bugs associated with it and Vanguard in general.
I'm playing WoW atm and it's crafting sucks.
I would LIKE to see a mmorpg where recipe's could be created by the players. Just put the " ingrediants' in the world and let the players design and create their own crafted gear/materials. This would truely allow for the master crafter.
For example
Zombies would drop occasional Zombie fingers which are known to give +5 health. An alchemist could add this to a potion of health or a blacksmith could add this to a piece of armor or weapon to buff it up a bit....combine this with the ability to make cosmetic changes depending on skill and we have can truely have a master crafter game.
or.....Perhaps a cook could create Zombie finger on a stick and give a player a +5 boost in health for awhile. First player to think of it can write it down and " own" the recipe...and thus sell the recipe if they want or be known as the only player who can make said Zonbie finger on a stick.
Old tale be told? Crafting according to mmo myth was introduced due to players duping items.
No, this is completely incorrect.
Crafting in UO was introduced because the entire game was designed around the resource system which my wife and I designed originally for a text mud. The text mud design was a combination of stuff we were inspired by in DartMUD, and things we had done on LegendMUD, her business and economics degree, and an epic crosscountry drive in which we did nothing but paper design for a new mud. We then sent in that paper design material as our design sample to Origin when trying for designer jobs on Ultima Online.
That right there is why UO was crafting-heavy. Crafting most certainly had existed in both text and graphical muds before that of course.
And i thank you for that. Crafting in UO was one of the main reasons why i started with MMOs back in 1997.
Sorry if this has been mentioned (this thread is crazy long), but what about Puzzle Pirates. I really think they got it right.
Maps - Buy common ones in Shipyards or get uncommons through PVP or PVE. Maps can lead you to islands that you can forage for crafting materials.
Foraging - You play a puzzle and the better you do, the better stuff you find.
PVE/PVP - Harder ships have gold as well as rarer crafting supplies.
Market - Some islands produce different supplies and you can place buy orders. Stock up while the price is low and sell high to players or another island's market.
Crafting - All the crafts use something that is either player made (like cloth, dyes, etc) or foraged. Players play a puzzle and depending on how well they do, they can create differnt levels of items.
Shoppes - Players can own standalone shoppes (rare) or stalls inside bigger shoppes. So anyone can run there own business. They can hire out other players to play the puzzle
Items - If I'm not mistaken, everything is player created. Most craft rely on other crafts for supplies.
I haven't played in soooo long though. But I think this is a one of the best crafting models and just one side of the game. There's palour games, tournaments, sailing (PVP/PVE) and maybe even more that I can't recall. But, then again, this isn't your average MMO, either.
A static money-supply is absolutely crucial. It's crucial in real life, and it's crucial in MMOs.
QFT! I mean, just look at all of those MMOs that failed utterly without making any profit at all because they left out the "absolutely crucial" element of a static money supply: UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, RO, EVE, SWG, FFXI, COH/COV, L2, EQ2, WOW, GW, DDO, WAR... every one of 'em! I mean, I could go on for hours.
You would think that with a static money supply being so absolutely crucial that at some point the developer of a major MMO would think to put it in. What a bunch of dum-dums!
Good troll. I'll give you that.
But no, this is a discussion about an economy and crafting in an MMO. Static money supply is crucial for those things to work properly, but of course a game can be successful without it. Way to take it out of context! I'd toast a troll-beer in your honor if I had some.
How many of those successful games you listed had an incredible economy and crafting that revolutionized the genre? None. That's right.
The particular example I gave was about WoW's economy, which obviously has major problems. Specifically, people were complaining about 15g a stack of copper. Which is directly related to the money-supply. But that has already been explained.
I wasn't talking at all on whether or not a game can be successful financially without it. Only that it's crucial for a healthy economy, which is crucial for good crafting.
Comments
Ah finally, my favorite major topic in any MMO which is often treated as the annoying step child but now gets a bit attention.
Basically I like to craft because I like to MAKE things - rather than destroy or conquer them. I do that in real life, in spare time, no matter, my hubby called me once "project-mad". Websites, Lego, MMOs, no matter, just creating something and see others have fun with is a big reward for me. And that draws me to crafting.
The best crafting systems in my opinion are atitd for its player skill orientation. Even though it is very time consuming and tool dependent soon. EQ2 because of the huge number of things you can make which doesn't take too long and still makes a profit even without maxing it easily. And Vanguard for the strategy involved in the action point pool based mini game. Plus Free Realms is nice when it comes to cooking, melting etc. which all work with mouse gestures. That is nice! And yes, UO was nice too, especially the parts where it got out of the interface and inside the world like wood chopping. Imagine fighting in an interface window, who would like to do that???
It annoys me to no end why crafting should be tedious per se. Most people as in EQ2 could make huge amounts of money with the level they have and still don't craft because they don't enjoy it. Leveling it is boring like hell. Why is that? Farmville needs no levels, just a bit of dedication here and there and millions of people do it and basically it is a crafting game. Still it is pretty dull and simplified but fun enough. You exchange things all the time with fellow players, they help you "craft" better...
So why isn't someone finally picking crafting up as the major (!) component of a game for fun and attractiveness it can be? and not just the "Oh yes and we have crafting too, just on a side note, but it is tedious by intent of course". That is the most stupid design idea ever. Most people don't like crafting per se and you can always add dumps like pawnbroker or what to get rid of the items. Of course getting the money levelled out is more difficult if (god beware) many player would craft like hell because it is as much fun oriented as combat is. But difficulties are there to overcome by good design and not avoid by making the feature boring.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Based on the success of MMOs and social games around the concepts of farming, crafting, pets, shopkeeping, dress-up, and yes, even dancing, I suggest to you that you may have this exactly backwards. I would never diminish the importance of combat -- it's one of the core things that children play, which is a good cue! -- but right now the mass market is doing the exact opposite of what you are saying.
That was actually introduced into Horizons/Istaria but pretty late, broken/damaged gear you needed a crafter to repair before being able to use it. Seemed to suit all types of players, people liked it.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
Oh really? They nerfed it? What exactly? Haven't played in ages, too much grind in diplo and "kill 100 x" drove me away too ...
But the crafting was pretty awesome.
Played: Pretty much any fantasy MMO, some did not even make it to release ...
Favorites: UO, EQ2, Vanguard, Wurm Online, Salem, ESO, Creativerse
Playing: ESO, Creativerse, Guild Wars 2
Anticipating: (sigh) ... maybe Ashes of Creation
First let me say that in no way shape for form did SWG crafting bring on the NGE. No idea where that brain fart comes from.
IMO, if an MMO does not have player crafted items that are needed by combat toons then I would likely never play that MMO.
Crafting does not destroy or ruin PVE or PVP either, as long as the crafting system is dsigned and implemented accordingly.
SWG, even in it's current form, still has one of the best crafting systems, if not the best. The only thing that could make it better would be re-introduction of the decay system. That is what kept player crafted items in constant demand, kept the market open for new crafters, and contained inflation. NGE removed decay and thus turned many items into everlasting durable goods that crafters charge allot for assuming the will get only one sale.
The only reason more games do not have crafting is point blank the cost associated with it's design, implementation, maintenance and additions. Some of the best recent additions to SWG, since the NGE, has been the RE system, Weaponsmith changes, and Droid Engineer changes.
The other issue I see here is that combat players complain allot cause they have to get stuff from a crafter and they don't want to pay for it. In SWG we have the "those greedy crafters" comments on a regular basis. Unfortunately most of those comments are coming from players that have never rolled a crafter and never will. Thus they are totally and utterly clueless as to the effort it takes to make capped primus layered armor in SWG. In many cases in SWG, being able to make capped crafted items, or near cap, requires as much effort, or more, than that requred for a combat toon to reach max level.
If SWG were to remove crafting, I would cancel all my accounts and move on. I value the effort put into my crafters as much as my combat toons. Anyone that made a similar effort would likely feel the same.
MMOs with out crafting are not MMOs, IMHO.
A static money-supply is absolutely crucial. It's crucial in real life, and it's crucial in MMOs. They have a system where money gets destroyed, with things like repair-bills, reagants and whatnot. But unless they can make sure it's at a 1:1 ratio with the money that gets into the economy, you're getting inflation. Even if it is at a close to 1:1 ratio, you still have the money coming in through farmers, which will then create bubbles.
But yeah, can't really expect your average MMO-player to understand this.
granted i started playing swg in its last year before the NGE came and destroyed it
in no time when i played it was every one who enjoyed it a crafter
i was and i loved every thing about there crafting system
but most the people i sold to or interacted with were not part of the crafting comunity
but every one i talked to or heard from in the game loved it
so please although i admit crafting to me atleast was one of the greatest parts of swg (and no other game has come close to getting it right in comparosin)
please dont go claiming it was one of the reasons it died
it was a completly awsome game before they killed it with the NGE
granted you may be talking from pre-cu experince and having never seen the pre-cu i cant say anything about it
Yes indeed Mr Raph
That is why you folded your tent in the MMO arena, and ran off to the facebook/cell-phone arena. A slap in the face to those who chose to work for/support you.
We are talking about MMORPGs though.
You know...the type of game you comepletely screwed the pooch with in SWG by trying the social route, rather than making a content laden game ala EQ1. With one of the greatest IPs, in the world, you failed to pull the numbers of my native EQ1.
Those of us playing MMOs, prior to the launch of SWG, knew damn well to avoid the cluster-frack you created. Even before the NDA was lifted, MMO sites were getting word of just how terrible of a design you created. YOu were roasted on FoH at launch for the horrific game play.
Why? I would say cause you spun your wheels on the social BS....rather than making an actual game. All types of bugs in game....but by God you could sit in line for buffs. Bravo /sarcasm off
Now I only have an Associates in Electronics degree, coupled with almost completing a Bachelor of Computer Science during my 10 yrs of being a tech before going on disability for Crohns....but in my "limited" view I see SWG as a game where you tried to cater to everyone.. You ended up failing on par with Cryptic's current STo fiasco.
Some folks around here may idolize you Mr Koster. Others of us though are glad you no longer are in the MMO biz.
I wish you luck in scripting farm animals. /animosity off(you had that post coming since launch of SWG)
Seriously....this is what I would do to add the sand-box elements your following desires in MMOs:
These mini-games ala Farmville would probably go great in a MMO as a side-attraction. A huge themepark just isnt rides....but has side attractions as well.
You place these mini-games in social hubs ala 360's Game Room. That draws the folks that want to be there...instead of forcing the inter-dependacy. You dont focus development on them...maybe one or two at launch. Adding more....but keeping in mind that you need to crank out PVE/PVP content.
The 32 classes of SWG you could mix/match skills from....pfft only if you are on crack. I believe EQ1 still is at 16, and I only played semi- hardcore from Feb 01 to about middle of 06. You spent mega development hrs trying to balance the cluster-frack. The fewer the classes, the more you can allow skill trees in each class to differentiate folks.
Housing? You littered the game-world with it. Housing is fine....if it is designated areas. Leaving a huge-barren world for folks to build towns isnt very wise IMO. When these folks leave(and most folks eventuall leave a MMO), you are left with ghost towns where content areas could of been.
UO should of taught you that folks dont like PVP forced on them. Different servers for that. Again...you forced folks to be others content be it ganking, or forced inter-dependacy.
Raph you may do very well in the social game setting. I know when my wife is taking a break from her EQ2 fix, she enjoys Pogo. That is just it though....they are 2 different crowds. Yes they do share some ideals, but when push comes to shove the MMO market...that is the MMORPG market are doing the RPG thing. They build their chars thru either PVE or PVP.
What you tried to do was turn RPGs into sims. Wrong target audience. Which is why you may succeed this time....as your target segment will be correct. It wasnt prior.
Good day
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
you are wrong wrong wrong emphatically wrong and abysmally so
i just love when people who dont have a bloody clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge just how popular it was before the nge
the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
was greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had .
so they made the NGE a huge risk and it bit them in the ass and rightfully so
and if you want to claim otherwise think on this
if it didn't have the numbers of people who enjoyed it it wouldent of had the shear amount of irate customers needed to make the disaster that was the NGE hit the news, papers , and etc
it would of just gone ignored
I don't understand why anyone would discuss Wow in a crafting discussion. Crafting was strictly an after thought in that game, strictly just to say they had it.
Personally either SWG or UO had the best crafting systems. A good crafter became known in those games. Eve crafting became flawed when they used a lottery system for many of the advanced items.
A MMO can't be a quality one with out a decent crafting system, IMO.
thats the catagory i fit in
and im rather disappointed he didnt include it
"i love when people who dont have a clue what there talking about attack the way swg was before the nge and dont acknowledge just how popular it was before the nge
the only thing swg had a problem with is it was a little buggy and had a terrible start. well that and the company runing it be it soe or LA
were greedy and wanted wow's numbers instead of the fairly successful population numbers it had ."
Wow Inie....I already gave my background.
How many Devs come from the computer Science side eh? I would reckon my analytic reasoning background is a lot closer to a Dev than yourself.
The reason I say this without knowing you....your post reeks of pure fanboi-ism. I already said I wasnt a Dev....just what I saw.
Alpha-classes, recursive macro-ing....yep slam bang jobs. I tried during the CU, after waiting due to such a mess the game was. It still was a mess in summer 05.
Little buggy? Do I really need to head over to FoH and link all the problem posts at launch? For that matter I suggest you check this very site for the time frame. SWG was universally panned. No matter how much its fans "scream" about how great is was....the rest of us see it for the smoldering pile of poo it was.
SWG had one of the biggest IPs around, and even offered a paid beta....yet the bugs prior to launch werent concentrated on. You sure as hell had interdependacy though. This isnt even mentioning the mess created by offering so many iterations due to the 32 classes.
The fact SWG couldnt top EQ says it all.
If SWG had been content laden ala EQ, me, and fellow RPG gamers like me would of eaten it up. This is even taking into account the plethora of folks who held mutiple accounts due to only one charcater per server. 300k for a SW game....yeah sure thing skippy. TOR will destroy those numbers.
We didnt appreciate a virtual world vs a RPG. The sub numbers showed. It took WOW easing the commitment requirements of my native EQ1 to bring MMOs mainstream.
Keep singing "la la la" if ya wish. The only thing SWG did accomplish was creating a sick fantasy world. One where folks were constantly asking for nudity on the O-brds, and who have cried for yrs since they changed the game.
Sorry...not meaning to derail thread but hate getting flamed/trolled by low post count fan-bois. Especially when they appear to be on better drugs than my daily stash of Vicos :P
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I like FE crafting better because I feel it produces useful items conistently. Just about everything is useful ...not just to sell..but as gear. Vanguard is good for one main aspect...the process itself. It must be carefully calculated and monitored...and I like that you can try techniques that just get the job done...or spend time and take a chance on a better quality result. While you can queue up to 20 items to craft in FE (good imo because some take hours to finish)..Vanguard requires you to be at the ready...and it's fun. Two of my favorite systems for very different reasons.
would of loved to try this game but i despise open pvp games
i heard they had a good crafting system though
i have a masters degree in micro electronics enginering
a certificate in stage directing and editing for tv
a bachelors in human psychology
and a bachelors in computer sciences
not to mention Microsoft certification
and a few more in animal care
and a iq of 190
and my personality is listed in my sig
and as an INTP analytical thinking is my specialty
my point is just because you have these things does not mean your any more qualified to say whats good in a game then any one hear
being an intellectual dosnt make you any more qualified then joe shmo new to gameing
and yes i am a bit too much of an egg head in RL lol :P (and yes i admit my spelling and grammer tend to suck lol :P )
and no i dont have much of a social life :P
and its less rude to not try and play the intellectual superiority game when trying to argue a point and extremely unbecoming of a true intellectual not to mention very uncouth.
but since you tried to make the challenge im more then happy to smack you down like the pup you are
that being said i do agree swg could of done well with more content god knows it needed more content
i do not argue that point
i do argue the idea that it was a bad game and one that mmo's shouldn't strive to be like
when it was a great game and one mmo's should look to when designing there crafting system
it was a masterpiece of mmo innovation and i dare say even had the potential to topple wow if they took it the right direction and kept adding content
even its 32 classes of skills system was a great innovation and far superior to the idea of being locked into a class
and worked quite well and made for far more replayablity then most mmo's have to this day
o and for your info before the NGE hit and when i joind swg its population was well over EQ's
and FYI its bad start hurt the game more then anything else
the bad word of mouth and the fact that most reviewers never updated there review of swg after its start and after they started improving and vastly so i might add are what hurt it more then any one system the game had
and the NGE was just the worse thing to happen in the perfect storm of bad publicity a ounce great and well under appreciated game had
even the fact that its story wasn't as cannon as it should of bean and the bugs it had paled in comparison to the damage the reputation from its start had
Maybe not....but considering I did make a living out of fixing things that were wrong, perhaps I have a bit of insight having gamed since the 70s.
Then again maybe the majority of MMO players back then could see the things I refer to. I told ya...read this very site if you doubt it.. A few liked it....most hated it. Do I need to link it?
Here...start on this page and work your way back....
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/forum/803/page/236
I dont know what you are on, but SWG NEVER held the MMO title. Maybe in your fantasy it did. I dont know where you went to school, but 300k isnt a greater number than 450k. 300k is what SWG held at launch....and went downhill from there. EQ held high sub numbers until the launch of WoW. And at no time did a NA MMO surpass it until the launch of WoW.
Anybody with the slightest mathmatical apptitude would realize it is easier to design/balance content for a few classes vs the 32 "iconic" proffesions had at launch.
Anyways enough of the tangent....as stated prior...I believe EQ1 had tradeskills right. Something that adds to the game...not something to center a game around.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
never held the title mmo O.o what drugs are you on and can i have some
get off your high horse and do some real god damn research before someone pushes you off it after all the fall might hurt
it did at one point out do EQ in population
oooo playing since the 70s what an achievement since any one hear over 35 has probably bean playing something or other that long
granted i started around 83
and guess what buddy boy your not the only one hear who has worked in the gaming industry
now go shove off
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Galaxies for a more accurate look at sub numbers
and i joind in 2005 when according to this it was at its prime
and the NGE hit and killed it about 6-8 months later
any ways this ends hear . i will not dignify it with further argument as your obviously not worth my time
so i will be the more mature person and drop it hear. dont expect me to respond to what ever inane excuse for a response you decide to give this one
as for the 35 skill classes we will have to agree to disagree because i dont wish to take this any further.
raph koster is a genius when it comes to mmo design and i will not suffer your ignorance on this mater any further
Inie....you are such a troll...I already gave ya the links to feedback.
Lets go the MMO numbers...what ya say?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/274204/And-this-is-why-you-dont-make-mmos-for-wow-players.html
This off the main discussion page as it is a current thread. I forget the name of the other site that used to track subs as well. Until WoW launched, EQ ruled the MMO world in NA. Which is shown here, and on the other site I mentioned(MMOdata.com or something to that effect).
SOE NEVER....I repeat NEVER referred to SWG as the number one subbed MMO during those yrs. It might....repeat might have lauded it over boxes sold....but SWG never held the sub title during that timeframe. The retention rate during the first month was dismal.
It sold a ton of boxes....but the majority didnt sign up for first month subs.
Now go away little troll fan-boi. Sorry to burst your wittle bubble with facts.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Thank god you don't make MMO's based on your opinion of SWG. Anyway crafting in games today for the most part just seem to be a after thought. I also notice the last few years these games that pretty much ignore crafting have failed in the north america market. It's time for MMO's to give us a complete game with combat and crafting getting equal content.
I don't know the numbers of Fallen Earth but they get good ratings here and their game has deep crafting. Maybe there is hope yet.
QFT! I mean, just look at all of those MMOs that failed utterly without making any profit at all because they left out the "absolutely crucial" element of a static money supply: UO, EQ, AC, AO, DAoC, RO, EVE, SWG, FFXI, COH/COV, L2, EQ2, WOW, GW, DDO, WAR... every one of 'em! I mean, I could go on for hours.
You would think that with a static money supply being so absolutely crucial that at some point the developer of a major MMO would think to put it in. What a bunch of dum-dums!
I would love to see a mmorpg with an indepth and meaningful crafting game. I think it's something completely overlooked.
Horizons had a huge crafting game. Not just weapons and armor, but you had to build your own housing, silos, woodshops, blacksmith shops, guild houses, fences,dragon lairs...even your own trees where made through transmuted materials. The only problem was the lack of players...and a massive grind to collect materials.
Vanguard has some good ideas too. They streamlined some of Horizon's ideas and tried to make crafting into it's own mini game which would determine whether you successfully crafted said item and of what quality it was. Big proble was all the bugs associated with it and Vanguard in general.
I'm playing WoW atm and it's crafting sucks.
I would LIKE to see a mmorpg where recipe's could be created by the players. Just put the " ingrediants' in the world and let the players design and create their own crafted gear/materials. This would truely allow for the master crafter.
For example
Zombies would drop occasional Zombie fingers which are known to give +5 health. An alchemist could add this to a potion of health or a blacksmith could add this to a piece of armor or weapon to buff it up a bit....combine this with the ability to make cosmetic changes depending on skill and we have can truely have a master crafter game.
or.....Perhaps a cook could create Zombie finger on a stick and give a player a +5 boost in health for awhile. First player to think of it can write it down and " own" the recipe...and thus sell the recipe if they want or be known as the only player who can make said Zonbie finger on a stick.
That kind of thing...
And i thank you for that. Crafting in UO was one of the main reasons why i started with MMOs back in 1997.
btw, anyone pls know any other mmorpg which has crafting similar to the VG or EQ2?
Sorry if this has been mentioned (this thread is crazy long), but what about Puzzle Pirates. I really think they got it right.
Maps - Buy common ones in Shipyards or get uncommons through PVP or PVE. Maps can lead you to islands that you can forage for crafting materials.
Foraging - You play a puzzle and the better you do, the better stuff you find.
PVE/PVP - Harder ships have gold as well as rarer crafting supplies.
Market - Some islands produce different supplies and you can place buy orders. Stock up while the price is low and sell high to players or another island's market.
Crafting - All the crafts use something that is either player made (like cloth, dyes, etc) or foraged. Players play a puzzle and depending on how well they do, they can create differnt levels of items.
Shoppes - Players can own standalone shoppes (rare) or stalls inside bigger shoppes. So anyone can run there own business. They can hire out other players to play the puzzle
Items - If I'm not mistaken, everything is player created. Most craft rely on other crafts for supplies.
I haven't played in soooo long though. But I think this is a one of the best crafting models and just one side of the game. There's palour games, tournaments, sailing (PVP/PVE) and maybe even more that I can't recall. But, then again, this isn't your average MMO, either.
Good troll. I'll give you that.
But no, this is a discussion about an economy and crafting in an MMO. Static money supply is crucial for those things to work properly, but of course a game can be successful without it. Way to take it out of context! I'd toast a troll-beer in your honor if I had some.
How many of those successful games you listed had an incredible economy and crafting that revolutionized the genre? None. That's right.
The particular example I gave was about WoW's economy, which obviously has major problems. Specifically, people were complaining about 15g a stack of copper. Which is directly related to the money-supply. But that has already been explained.
I wasn't talking at all on whether or not a game can be successful financially without it. Only that it's crucial for a healthy economy, which is crucial for good crafting.