Everyone has a different sense of "Fun". I don't think old school mmo's are a 2nd job at all, I enjoy them quite well and don't get stressed by them. Yes they may require you to spend more time to get things accompished but I make time for it by not doing other forms of entertainment.
Doing hard things to achieve a goal, can make that goal much more fun when it is acheived.
Solo up to max level in WoW, a time waster, fun for some people, but no real accomplishment.
Grouping to max level in the orginal DAoC, much harder with much more frustration, but much more rewarding when you get there.
So yes, I see the OP's point.
That's why it's good to have different games for different players. There's nothing wrong with WoW, there's nothing wrong with wanting something a bit more immersive, and there's nothing wroing with not liking one of those.
It doesn't mean you need to bash people that don't like what you like.
Doing hard things to achieve a goal, can make that goal much more fun when it is acheived.
Solo up to max level in WoW, a time waster, fun for some people, but no real accomplishment.
Grouping to max level in the orginal DAoC, much harder with much more frustration, but much more rewarding when you get there.
So yes, I see the OP's point.
That's why it's good to have different games for different players. There's nothing wrong with WoW, there's nothing wrong with wanting something a bit more immersive, and there's nothing wroing with not liking one of those.
It doesn't mean you need to bash people that don't like what you like.
When they want to change and they successfully continue to change what you do like into something you do not like, it becomes a point of saying enough is enough - go find another freaking game, no? Because the mindless garbage they want is out there - there is no need for them to turn everything into that crap...no?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I agree with your examples, it seems spot on. But, you waste your time, because what you CAN'T get through any of the new players thick skulls is also something you didn't mention from old school players such as myself.
It's not as much that there are casual MMO's...everyone deserves to have a game cater to them that they can enjoy. It's the frustration in the fact that nearly EVERY MMO is casual, catering to the new crowd completely, and in the process leaving the old schoolers with nothing but fond memories. Also, the frustration of seeing the genre fade away entirely to what I cannot define as MMO's. They are more glorified console RPG's in an MMO wrapper than anything. Their are almost no real MMORPG's anymore. And by real I mean....
Where are the open worlds to explore? Where are the tight knit communities? Where are the meaningful quests? Crafting systems? Robust economies?
Most MMO's now are heavily instanced killing world economies, sense of community, and exploration..which also stems from instant ports, etc. The worlds are linear, fast paced in every aspect, give awards every 5 minutes for little effort, give in-game GPS, etc, etc, etc. What I'm getting at is that there is almost NOTHING that separates them from console games anymore. THAT is what frustrates me more than anything. This is also why I am currently not playing one. Why? I can bascially get the same gratuification out of a console game I pay a one time fee for than a monthly fee for the same thing they are calling MMO's now a days. It's sad.
This is pretty much spot on. There are very few MMOs today that can catter to "old schools", and we can't do much about it. That's not where the money is and both developers and investors are in it for the money. Of course Indie Companies tries to launch something different but it doesn't always work out too well.
Single-Player Online Role Playing Game is the way to go nowadays.
The only way is to find solutions to bring old game mechanics and features into new MMO and find a compromise where both can find it rewarding and fun.
IMO, no one has ever achieved this, and you would be an absolute genius if you could.
This is how I see the problem.
You have, for example a race, and a trophy. (Leveling up to max).
Some people want a long hard race, like 25 miles. But other people can't run that far.
The people that can't run that far say, it's not fair. So, there should be a short cut for them, so they can get the trophy.
And they say, look! this is a compromise! It's great for EVERYBODY! because you CAN still take the long way if you WANT to!
And you said you wanted a hard race, and if you REALLY want a hard race, then go ahead and run it. No one is stopping you.
But would that really be so much fun for the people taking the long way, when they know at any moment they could take the short cut and get the same trophy?
Would it really be a "compromise" or does it really just benefit those asking for the short cut, while they ridicule those wanting a harder race, and just calling them names because they don't like the dumbed down race?
The "compromise" always benefits the people wanting the easy way, and then they just say the people that are unhappy about it dont' li9ke "choice".
But really, they've taken away the choice for a no holds barred hard race, if you see what I mean.
I agree with your examples, it seems spot on. But, you waste your time, because what you CAN'T get through any of the new players thick skulls is also something you didn't mention from old school players such as myself.
It's not as much that there are casual MMO's...everyone deserves to have a game cater to them that they can enjoy. It's the frustration in the fact that nearly EVERY MMO is casual, catering to the new crowd completely, and in the process leaving the old schoolers with nothing but fond memories. Also, the frustration of seeing the genre fade away entirely to what I cannot define as MMO's. They are more glorified console RPG's in an MMO wrapper than anything. Their are almost no real MMORPG's anymore. And by real I mean....
Where are the open worlds to explore? Where are the tight knit communities? Where are the meaningful quests? Crafting systems? Robust economies?
Most MMO's now are heavily instanced killing world economies, sense of community, and exploration..which also stems from instant ports, etc. The worlds are linear, fast paced in every aspect, give awards every 5 minutes for little effort, give in-game GPS, etc, etc, etc. What I'm getting at is that there is almost NOTHING that separates them from console games anymore. THAT is what frustrates me more than anything. This is also why I am currently not playing one. Why? I can bascially get the same gratuification out of a console game I pay a one time fee for than a monthly fee for the same thing they are calling MMO's now a days. It's sad.
This is pretty much spot on. There are very few MMOs today that can catter to "old schools", and we can't do much about it. That's not where the money is and both developers and investors are in it for the money. Of course Indie Companies tries to launch something different but it doesn't always work out too well.
Single-Player Online Role Playing Game is the way to go nowadays.
The only way is to find solutions to bring old game mechanics and features into new MMO and find a compromise where both can find it rewarding and fun.
IMO, no one has ever achieved this, and you would be an absolute genius if you could.
This is how I see the problem.
You have, for example a race, and a trophy. (Leveling up to max).
Some people want a long hard race, like 25 miles. But other people can't run that far.
The people that can't run that far say, it's not fair. So, there should be a short cut for them, so they can get the trophy.
And they say, look! this is a compromise! It's great for EVERYBODY! because you CAN still take the long way if you WANT to!
And you said you wanted a hard race, and if you REALLY want a hard race, then go ahead and run it. No one is stopping you.
But would that really be so much fun for the people taking the long way, when they know at any moment they could take the short cut and get the same trophy?
Would it really be a "compromise" or does it really just benefit those asking for the short cut, while they ridicule those wanting a harder race, and just calling them names because they don't like the dumbed down race?
The "compromise" always benefits the people wanting the easy way, and then they just say the people that are unhappy about it dont' li9ke "choice".
But really, they've taken away the choice for a no holds barred hard race, if you see what I mean.
If they actually did that, fewer people might complain. They do not leave in the long way though - everybody gets stuck with the short race. They should give people the option to be ridiculed for wanting to go the short race and allow those that enjoy more the chance to continue to do more.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Well I guess it all comes down to what you have time with these days. I used to love to grind for hours to get that 1 item or to repeat hard dungeons only to get fully geared. But these days I´ve moved on in life. Family/friends and work take alot more of your time and you´re lucky if you have 1 hour a day to play games, which I still love to do. I need a quicker fix then earlier because of that. Imagine a huge grind for 1 item when you only have that 1 hour to play. A full set of gear would take you uptowards a month and the progress would be seen as really slow. i´d rather log in and have some good old plain fun as you wrote about first rather then actually have the game as a second job. Is it more fulfilling the second part? Yeah sure when, and only when, you´re done with it. In the end it´s just binary numbers.
All statements I make is from my point of view unless stated otherwise.
If you want a casual game i suggest WOW or the 100 clones of it. It's because this market is not only flooded by them but the market for them is very stagnant as well as there is NOTHING thats new to play for us old timers. I need a challenge in a game, i need levels of passage that NOT not everyone can achieve instantly. I want a game where you have to earn your right to stand beside me from a performance standpoint and that will require a substantial time sink that gamers like me are not affraid to invest in.
First generation MMO players were as much social players if not more so then actual game players. The easy mode of modern day games has killed the social element especially for us adult players. Games however interesting they are will only remain so for a relatively short period. The staying power of the MMO is community, comraderie and friendships made. Modern day games really don't have a social element. When WoW was released the social element slowly but surely fell away.
WAR had no social element from the start even though it was made instant gratification easy mode. Casual means anybody can succeed with little or no effort. If they can ever create the old school feel of adventure most of us remember then their is a chance for a new release to capture the glory long lost of first generation fantasy MMO"s. Most of my gamer friends had lots of free time to play. We could play all day on weekends 12+ hours a day without any problems. 4-6 hours a night on work days.
As you can see my group of players was never casual gamers. First and foremost we loved to spend time with each other in a game that was actually interesting and a challenge. Those same players like myself no longer play because of how MMO's are today. I haven't found a game in the past 4 years worth playing more then a month. The MMO market is really in a rut right now and hopefully one day soon that will change.
See, I think that right there is the problem and the disconnect the OP was talking about. This idea that players have to be fed constant "accomplishments" in rapid succession.
That really is what's happened to these games. Everything that might slow people down on their way to their next "accomplishment" has been removed and as a result these games have been gutted down to the most basic element of progression. Progression, progression, progression. To hell with exploring. To hell with social interaction. To hell with adventure. To hell with trying to make the game feel like a world. Just feed them their progression pellets fast enough and they'll be happy.
People worry so much about getting that next level or that next piece of equipment that they start referring to relaxing and actually playing and having fun as "work". Why is it work if you can't insta-travel to the other side of the world? Traveling there on foot might take longer but you're still playing the game. If there are some adventures to be had along the way it should still be fun. People call it "work" because they might have to go five minutes without a progression pellet and they start Jonesing for their fix....not because it's actually work. They don't want to relax and have fun. They want to keep frantically pressing the lever for their next pellet.
No, you're not really playing the game while walking around for hours trying to get somewhere, any more than you're "riding the ride" while standing in line at Disneyland. You're in the same ballpark but until you actually sit down on the ride, you're still just standing in line.
Personally, I don't give a damn about progression. If they entirely got rid of leveling and the ridiculous gear fetish, I'd be fine with that. I don't have to "get anywhere" or "show off" to anyone in order to have a good time. As I've said before, I can sit down and play Tetris for hours on end if I want and enjoy it, there is no real progression whatsoever in that game.
I think much of this misses the point. The discussion was similar to one comparing console fighting games and MMORPG PVP. If you want the quick and fun fluff games, there are plenty of them out there. Go play Bejeweled or Farmville. Why should MMORPGs be diluted?
Because there aren't enough so-called "hardcore" players on the planet to keep the current crop of MMOs alive? It's basic economics. People make games that appeal to people who will pay them money to play.
See, I think that right there is the problem and the disconnect the OP was talking about. This idea that players have to be fed constant "accomplishments" in rapid succession.
That really is what's happened to these games. Everything that might slow people down on their way to their next "accomplishment" has been removed and as a result these games have been gutted down to the most basic element of progression. Progression, progression, progression. To hell with exploring. To hell with social interaction. To hell with adventure. To hell with trying to make the game feel like a world. Just feed them their progression pellets fast enough and they'll be happy.
People worry so much about getting that next level or that next piece of equipment that they start referring to relaxing and actually playing and having fun as "work". Why is it work if you can't insta-travel to the other side of the world? Traveling there on foot might take longer but you're still playing the game. If there are some adventures to be had along the way it should still be fun. People call it "work" because they might have to go five minutes without a progression pellet and they start Jonesing for their fix....not because it's actually work. They don't want to relax and have fun. They want to keep frantically pressing the lever for their next pellet.
No, you're not really playing the game while walking around for hours trying to get somewhere, any more than you're "riding the ride" while standing in line at Disneyland. You're in the same ballpark but until you actually sit down on the ride, you're still just standing in line.
Personally, I don't give a damn about progression. If they entirely got rid of leveling and the ridiculous gear fetish, I'd be fine with that. I don't have to "get anywhere" or "show off" to anyone in order to have a good time. As I've said before, I can sit down and play Tetris for hours on end if I want and enjoy it, there is no real progression whatsoever in that game.
Standing in line at Disney land =/= exploring the world of an MMORPG.
The "game" is being logged in to the world, whether you are quest grinding, or flirting with a hawt elf chick, or just wandering around lost.
There is no way for YOU to tell someone how to play the game, or that they are not playing, or they have to play like you do.
You log in, you're playing the game if all you do is stand there and read the global chat.
That's part of "the game". The game is not just quest grinding, and that's it.
I can never understand the mentality of some "hardcore" or "oldschool" gamers that makes them nerdrage on new gamers. Is it a new gamers fault they weren't around or aware of the mmorpgs we played 10+ years ago? In my opinion, most the reasons that mmorpgs were streamlined to a fault can all be laid into the oldshool gamers lap. We were the ones that complained about all the time sinks back in the early mmorpgs. Now some gamers didn't complain I'm sure. I never officially complained, but I sure did grumble to myself when I lost countless corpses or had to wait for weeks for a mob to spawn.
Now, in retrospect, I can look back and miss those things. But can you honestly blame todays mmorpgs on the new gamers who really have never been exposed to the way things used to be. All they have to go by are the nerdy ramblings of "oldschool" gamers who blame them for everything.
Think about it for a second. We have lived through the timesinks of the past and can see how they were beneficial to making an mmorpg immersive. We can talk till we're blue in the face. The problem is, on paper, those timesinks look horrible. I can't blame the newbies to mmorpgs to look at us with revulsion and sadness.
Gotta say I agree with Ceph and Anub.. Games are for fun, I want to have fun and play around. As your example eludes to, I want to do something to waste time and have a laugh, nothing that is serious and time consuming to accomplish anything.
And seriously, why would I want that after 8 hours of serious work each day? It seems to me that the people posting these types of arguments aren't really challenged in their everyday life and need to find challenge in a game. I can't fathom how anyone who works using their brains all day would want to come home to a "game" such as EVE, which to me felt like a second job more than a game.
Oh, and Kyle, 2-3 hrs/day is pretty hard core. 2-3 hrs/week is casual
"...nothing that is serious and time consuming to accomplish anything."
See, I think that right there is the problem and the disconnect the OP was talking about. This idea that players have to be fed constant "accomplishments" in rapid succession.
That really is what's happened to these games. Everything that might slow people down on their way to their next "accomplishment" has been removed and as a result these games have been gutted down to the most basic element of progression. Progression, progression, progression. To hell with exploring. To hell with social interaction. To hell with adventure. To hell with trying to make the game feel like a world. Just feed them their progression pellets fast enough and they'll be happy.
People worry so much about getting that next level or that next piece of equipment that they start referring to relaxing and actually playing and having fun as "work". Why is it work if you can't insta-travel to the other side of the world? Traveling there on foot might take longer but you're still playing the game. If there are some adventures to be had along the way it should still be fun. People call it "work" because they might have to go five minutes without a progression pellet and they start Jonesing for their fix....not because it's actually work. They don't want to relax and have fun. They want to keep frantically pressing the lever for their next pellet.
I should have put in a "too" in there to make my point come across I guess. So what you are suggesting that the pellet should be dispensed after 8 hours? 10 or 12? You are not disagreeing with me on the fundamentals, but on the timing.
He's not saying the "pellet" should be dispensed after a longer period of time...what he's saying is that to reach the overall "pellet" may take longer and require more work, but you are also getting "pellets" along the way and because you had to work for it the overall accomplishment aka pellet is more nurishing and sweeter and you are more full from eating more nurishing and sweeter pellets along the way while gettign to the "grand pellet". Did I just totally confuse everyone?
Also, people equate casual too much to "I don't have alot of time because of real life issues. Well my second set of examples took maybe an hour and half, maybe two hours tops. I said an hour travel time and the side stuff that came up along the way. It wasn't a 5-8 hour long marathon play session and was interesting, worthwhile interaction. How was this too much time or hardcore? Now I will say that this type of situation wouldn't come up every time you log on, but by not having this type of game with this type of gameplay, you aren't even giving yourself the chance to experience this type of scenario.
Ok last thing and I'll shut up. Yes there is some rose colored nostalgia involved in old school games and you do have a point about these games still being active (and that should tell you something that these old games like UO, EQ and AC still have pretty stable player bases) but name one of these games that hasn't been fundamentally changed over time away from the original game. Take UO for instance. Trammel in one fell swoop pretty much killed pvp interaction and split the player base. The Age of Shadows killed the crafter/merchant economy. Both these things completely changed the immersion quality and interaction between everything, players, world, etc. Same thing with SWG.
Why does a movie as terrible as Transformers 2 make $800,000,000 worldwide and a movie like Moon make $8,000,000?
Why do shows like 30 Rock and Arrested Development rate like crap and reality trash rate high?
Because people on the whole are braindead idiots who just want dumed down rubbish.
I love the comments "oh, I work soooooooooooooo hard and I'm in such a high pressure job and I have not one, but TWO kids". No, your job is not stressful and a two hundred years ago you would have had at least 6 kids plus worked in the fields all day, had no electricity and had to grow and prepare all your own food.
Look, I'll break this to you, you like dumbed down entertainment not because your life is stressful but because you have the intellectual capability of an earthworm. If you won $50,000,000 in the lottery and never had to work again would you suddenly become interested in hardcore mmorpg's or read quality magazines and literature? No, you wouldn't.
Lets look at this another way - Homer Simpson has 3 kids and "works" all day too.
Being a leader of a country is stressful not pushing a couple of pens around on your desk.
Getting back to shows like 30 Rock and Arrested Development. They were light entertainment. They were funny, not stressful so why don't/didn't they rate much higher? Why does American (or whatever your country is) Idol rate so high even though its the same crap year in year out?
Its got nothing to do with time available to play. To give you an example awhile ago the guild I was in had this young kid in it. He got on every afternoon after school and stayed online to late at night. When it came to raids he turned up without consumables, never having looked at the strats, not having his gear repaired etc.
On the other hand there was another guy who worked full time, had a family at studied at night so he could only raid about 3 times a fortnight. When he did raid he was always on time, had researched the strats and came with consumables. He was always prepared. He was focus and motivated towards achieving a goal. Yes, his ability to reach that goal was limited by time but he was still determined to work towards his goals at his own pace.
You'll find a lot of these saying "oh, I work so hard and have so little time" still watch copious amounts of TV and play their XBOXs and Playstations and you'll find they approach mmorpg's the same way they would approach playing a single player game on their consoles. They'll play when they feel like it and expect to achieve everything in a timeframe of their own chosing.
If you look back at the early mmo's, from sand box to theme park, people revelled and in the uniqueness of what mmo's offered. Old timers looked at mmo's and emphasised the MASSIVE part of Mmorpg. Now players coming to the mmorpg format expect and demand that the game should be shaped and suited to their own INVIDIDUAL demands. - much like a single player game.
So to answer the OP's questions the disconnect is explained partly by generational issues. Teenagers these days are even more instant gratification and attention challenged than previous generations. And of course the flood of Homer Simpson like people discovering mmorpg's for the first time.
Although the message was somewhat aggressive, it is there none the less. This guy hits the nail on the head. I'll add there is nothing we can do about it, as they overwhelm us in numbers.
The whole point of games is to take the pleasure the human mind gets from learning, and concentrate it.
The problem with the original post is that it assumes that what people are after is quick, cheap, easy thrills. That's not really the important part -- that simply comes along with the territory of games being concentrated delight at discovery.
People aren't for cheap thrills as much as they're against tedium.
A while back, I played lots of Starcraft. Never in any of the multiplayer games of it that I played were things tedious, yet I was gradually learning to be better at it -- just like a Football player practices to be better at his game -- and eventually I had many of those "epic win" moments against tough opponents (although I don't live in Korea, so I never got a girl out of it. US culture, you disappoint me!) The amount of tedium over those 2-4 years of playing Starcraft was virtually nonexistant compared alongside the tedium that exists in many MMORPGs.
The "work" in this example was playing an enjoyable game. And that's where oldschool MMORPGs suck -- the "work" is actually tedious and uninteresting; not a fun game.
Really the main argument which makes sense from the oldschool MMORPGers is if they want worlds rather than games. At least that's logical, even if I find those types of games boring because they sacrifice fun gameplay in order to be better simulations.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
See, I think that right there is the problem and the disconnect the OP was talking about. This idea that players have to be fed constant "accomplishments" in rapid succession.
That really is what's happened to these games. Everything that might slow people down on their way to their next "accomplishment" has been removed and as a result these games have been gutted down to the most basic element of progression. Progression, progression, progression. To hell with exploring. To hell with social interaction. To hell with adventure. To hell with trying to make the game feel like a world. Just feed them their progression pellets fast enough and they'll be happy.
People worry so much about getting that next level or that next piece of equipment that they start referring to relaxing and actually playing and having fun as "work". Why is it work if you can't insta-travel to the other side of the world? Traveling there on foot might take longer but you're still playing the game. If there are some adventures to be had along the way it should still be fun. People call it "work" because they might have to go five minutes without a progression pellet and they start Jonesing for their fix....not because it's actually work. They don't want to relax and have fun. They want to keep frantically pressing the lever for their next pellet.
No, you're not really playing the game while walking around for hours trying to get somewhere, any more than you're "riding the ride" while standing in line at Disneyland. You're in the same ballpark but until you actually sit down on the ride, you're still just standing in line.
Personally, I don't give a damn about progression. If they entirely got rid of leveling and the ridiculous gear fetish, I'd be fine with that. I don't have to "get anywhere" or "show off" to anyone in order to have a good time. As I've said before, I can sit down and play Tetris for hours on end if I want and enjoy it, there is no real progression whatsoever in that game.
Equating journeying in an MMO to queuing for a ride would imply that the only parts of an MMO that are a 'game' are the beginning and end points. If you're doing that then why not just cut out everything in the middle? You get the quest then you speak to the same guy and he gives you a reward? It wouldn't work would it? Why not? Because if you didn't have to do something to get the reward it wouldn't feel like the reward was really 'rewarding' you for anything. Hence the more you have to do to get the reward the more rewarding it feels. Newer gamers just don't get this though, they give up half way and say it's crap and unfair because they can't do it.
You've also highlighted the problematic mindset of newer gamers as well. Why can't the journey be fun? All that new gamers are obsessed with is the reward at the end of everything. They don't care about having fun along the way, they just equate being rewarded to fun... I think there was an article on here by the MMORPG.com staff just recently that spoke about this very issue using FARMVILLE of all things as an example. People play farmville just to see their gold counter go up and to see that big 'level up' message every day despite the fact that the game is not fun to play at all. There's just some fundamental weakness of the human psyche to do anything to be rewarded. Playing games like WoW is not fun, people are just addicted to getting rewards.
The first time you down a raid boss... that's genuine fun. Every time after that you're not having fun any more, you're just going through the motions to be rewarded with more loot. When you get that loot you just rinse and repeat, the cycle gets stuck until the devs give you some more content to have fun playing once and then grind for more loot.
'Old school' MMOs were not like this. Players didn't play just to be rewarded, they played to have fun, and got rewards along the way that added to that fun. All that's happened is modern MMO devs have discovered this weakness in gamers and exploited it to its maximum, leaving a trail of 'rewarding' breadcrumbs that lead nowhere.
See, I think that right there is the problem and the disconnect the OP was talking about. This idea that players have to be fed constant "accomplishments" in rapid succession.
That really is what's happened to these games. Everything that might slow people down on their way to their next "accomplishment" has been removed and as a result these games have been gutted down to the most basic element of progression. Progression, progression, progression. To hell with exploring. To hell with social interaction. To hell with adventure. To hell with trying to make the game feel like a world. Just feed them their progression pellets fast enough and they'll be happy.
People worry so much about getting that next level or that next piece of equipment that they start referring to relaxing and actually playing and having fun as "work". Why is it work if you can't insta-travel to the other side of the world? Traveling there on foot might take longer but you're still playing the game. If there are some adventures to be had along the way it should still be fun. People call it "work" because they might have to go five minutes without a progression pellet and they start Jonesing for their fix....not because it's actually work. They don't want to relax and have fun. They want to keep frantically pressing the lever for their next pellet.
No, you're not really playing the game while walking around for hours trying to get somewhere, any more than you're "riding the ride" while standing in line at Disneyland. You're in the same ballpark but until you actually sit down on the ride, you're still just standing in line.
Personally, I don't give a damn about progression. If they entirely got rid of leveling and the ridiculous gear fetish, I'd be fine with that. I don't have to "get anywhere" or "show off" to anyone in order to have a good time. As I've said before, I can sit down and play Tetris for hours on end if I want and enjoy it, there is no real progression whatsoever in that game.
But exploring is part of the game. Looking at the world, the architecture around of certain ruins around you, groups of wandering mobs, spawn of enemy alliance, name them all. For many gamers ("hardcore" gamers, because exploring has now become something only hardcore do apparently) the fun part of the world is to discover it, learn about the lore, etc. That's how we have fun.
Hell, I often just log into an MMO, sit in town and chat all day. I don't always feel the need to go kill monster to reach Lv.XX or drop gear. I just take my time and enjoy the game. Sometimes I'll just walk around the world, (I do that a lot in DarkFall) and just look around, looking for spots with a great view on the surrounding.
So tell me, how can you tell wether or not we are playing the game if we are doing something we like? And the Disneyland analogy is pretty bad, who said we were "standing in line"?
IMO, no one has ever achieved this, and you would be an absolute genius if you could.
This is how I see the problem.
You have, for example a race, and a trophy. (Leveling up to max).
Some people want a long hard race, like 25 miles. But other people can't run that far.
The people that can't run that far say, it's not fair. So, there should be a short cut for them, so they can get the trophy.
And they say, look! this is a compromise! It's great for EVERYBODY! because you CAN still take the long way if you WANT to!
And you said you wanted a hard race, and if you REALLY want a hard race, then go ahead and run it. No one is stopping you.
But would that really be so much fun for the people taking the long way, when they know at any moment they could take the short cut and get the same trophy?
Would it really be a "compromise" or does it really just benefit those asking for the short cut, while they ridicule those wanting a harder race, and just calling them names because they don't like the dumbed down race?
The "compromise" always benefits the people wanting the easy way, and then they just say the people that are unhappy about it dont' li9ke "choice".
But really, they've taken away the choice for a no holds barred hard race, if you see what I mean.
If they actually did that, fewer people might complain. They do not leave in the long way though - everybody gets stuck with the short race. They should give people the option to be ridiculed for wanting to go the short race and allow those that enjoy more the chance to continue to do more.
They would leave. If they can't have it their way, they will get bored and leave. It's as simple as that. "Why should I feel bad about taking the short path? It's discrimination against Casuals! We have a life!"....something we so often hear about, which is actually often irrelevant to the subject....though I won't go into the details.
That said, it is not possible for an MMO to appeal to both "Olds" and "News", we like/enjoy opposite things.It's not a dog/cat issue, it's like trying to mix oil and water.
Here's the deal: it's just nostalgia. You think the old games suck too. You know how I know? You're not playing them! AC, UO, DAoC, or whatever, most of them are still running. You whine that nothing is as good as them, but then you can't bring yourself to play them anymore. The problem is that too many people let their warped, nostalgic recollections of a game influence their expectations of a new game. Nothing will ever be good enough for you because you think you've played the perfect the game, even though compared to newer games it's worse in every way.
No, actually you are off base in this conclusion. The reason I don't play DOAC is its not the same game that I loved playing back in the day.
So much as changed, from the crap TOA expansion, all of the instanced pve combat (Catacombs), the massive revamp of the open RVR world (new Frontiers), none of which made the game better. Then they made crafting worthless for the most part by making world drops too superior and pretty much the game I enjoyed is long gone.
They've talked about making a Pre TOA/NF server and if they did I'd go back in a minute.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The Short Race: run quests/dungeons to level 1->80. Get a bunch of abilities as a reward. Good jorb.
The Normal Race: run 80 dungeons/heroics to make your character extra awesome. Better jorb.
The Hard Race: run raids, and eventually get the best gear in the game from hard mode raids. Great jorb, only the toughest competitors will beat this one!
(the trick being that this isn't the same "everyone gets the Good Trophy" reward...so it's not actually Ihmotepp's Compromise. But honest, what game gives the best reward to everyone? Not many.)
Sure, WOW's difficulty spread could be substantially improved, but the important thing is to have challenges for all of the "runners" and appropriate rewards.
Honestly when I think about it I've never heard people who run the short race want the rewards of the hard race, in any game -- I mean they "want" those rewards, but they don't feel they deserve them.
The closest is that people like me have wanted there to be different Hard Races (truly difficult 5-10 man progression) which yield Hard Race style rewards.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The only problem I see with that Axehilt is that you still have the serious crutch of doing same content over and over just for gear. Even having harder 5-10 stuff you are still just running the hamster wheel with a different speed and different color wheel. I'm seriously thinking about starting a new thread about content and how it relates to an MMORPW (Guess what the "W" stands for, Axehilt game me the idea in another post on this thread!)
See, I think that right there is the problem and the disconnect the OP was talking about. This idea that players have to be fed constant "accomplishments" in rapid succession.
That really is what's happened to these games. Everything that might slow people down on their way to their next "accomplishment" has been removed and as a result these games have been gutted down to the most basic element of progression. Progression, progression, progression. To hell with exploring. To hell with social interaction. To hell with adventure. To hell with trying to make the game feel like a world. Just feed them their progression pellets fast enough and they'll be happy.
People worry so much about getting that next level or that next piece of equipment that they start referring to relaxing and actually playing and having fun as "work". Why is it work if you can't insta-travel to the other side of the world? Traveling there on foot might take longer but you're still playing the game. If there are some adventures to be had along the way it should still be fun. People call it "work" because they might have to go five minutes without a progression pellet and they start Jonesing for their fix....not because it's actually work. They don't want to relax and have fun. They want to keep frantically pressing the lever for their next pellet.
No, you're not really playing the game while walking around for hours trying to get somewhere, any more than you're "riding the ride" while standing in line at Disneyland. You're in the same ballpark but until you actually sit down on the ride, you're still just standing in line.
Personally, I don't give a damn about progression. If they entirely got rid of leveling and the ridiculous gear fetish, I'd be fine with that. I don't have to "get anywhere" or "show off" to anyone in order to have a good time. As I've said before, I can sit down and play Tetris for hours on end if I want and enjoy it, there is no real progression whatsoever in that game.
Traveling to get somewhere is part of the adventure. I love to explore and see where I can get to maybe fight a few things on the way. If you're not into that kind of thing then I can understand that it seems like a waste of time.
The only problem I see with that Axehilt is that you still have the serious crutch of doing same content over and over just for gear. Even having harder 5-10 stuff you are still just running the hamster wheel with a different speed and different color wheel. I'm seriously thinking about starting a new thread about content and how it relates to an MMORPW (Guess what the "W" stands for, Axehilt game me the idea in another post on this thread!)
Repetition (or "Grind") simply describes an insufficient rate of new game mechanics being introduced over time.
The reason for repetition is customer retention. Non-subscription games typically don't ask you to repeat content.
Actually that was a lie. Games are patterns. Fun comes from discovering the pattern. You can't discover a pattern if it never repeats. So games always involve repetition. But it's not a very big lie, because most players don't complain about that type of repetition. Complaints begin after the pattern is discovered, and the same pattern keeps repeating ("I've seen it before...new pattern, already!")
But I can't tell if you were replying to my first or second post.
My second post (on the "compromise" subject of the latter half of the thread) has nothing to do with repetition. You could imagine a game with only three bosses:
Easy: always drops a Sword +1.
Med: always drops Sword +2.
Hard: always drops Sword +3.
Note: zero repetition. But this is the same type of rewards-balancing we see in most games. This is why I criticize Ihmotepp's theory on compromise, because very few games pursue the Bad Compromise (where the Easy boss drops the +3 Sword) and most MMORPGs I've played use the Good Compromise (where tougher things drop better loot.) Bad Compromise in this case is just bad game design. Good Compromise provides all gamers with the challenge they want, and rewards them appropriately.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The Short Race: run quests/dungeons to level 1->80. Get a bunch of abilities as a reward. Good jorb.
The Normal Race: run 80 dungeons/heroics to make your character extra awesome. Better jorb.
The Hard Race: run raids, and eventually get the best gear in the game from hard mode raids. Great jorb, only the toughest competitors will beat this one!
(the trick being that this isn't the same "everyone gets the Good Trophy" reward...so it's not actually Ihmotepp's Compromise. But honest, what game gives the best reward to everyone? Not many.)
Sure, WOW's difficulty spread could be substantially improved, but the important thing is to have challenges for all of the "runners" and appropriate rewards.
Honestly when I think about it I've never heard people who run the short race want the rewards of the hard race, in any game -- I mean they "want" those rewards, but they don't feel they deserve them.
The closest is that people like me have wanted there to be different Hard Races (truly difficult 5-10 man progression) which yield Hard Race style rewards.
I agree with most of what you're saying in this thread, but it's worth noting that in vanilla WoW, there was indeed plenty of uproar over Naxx being too difficult on average players, while there were guilds plenty capable of working through the place after having earned the appropriate gear through much effort in the prior raids (BWL etc.). Plenty felt entitled, as it were, to see the place, but didn't want to do the work it required to get there (not for work to be taken out of context - it was half the fun and 40-mans were plenty of it, if not a bit frustrating at times).
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
I agree with most of what you're saying in this thread, but it's worth noting that in vanilla WoW, there was indeed plenty of uproar over Naxx being too difficult on average players, while there were guilds plenty capable of working through the place after having earned the appropriate gear through much effort in the prior raids (BWL etc.). Plenty felt entitled, as it were, to see the place, but didn't want to do the work it required to get there (not for work to be taken out of context - it was half the fun and 40-mans were plenty of it, if not a bit frustrating at times).
To a degree, I do agree with this.
Although it's a constraint of the realities of game development. You can't develop content faster than players can consume it in the first place. So you're already behind at all times -- but if your content release only satisfies 3% of you playing population then you're even more behind than normal, so it's typically a Very Bad Idea to produce content in such an inefficient manner.
The thing that matters most is satisfying everyone's Challenge Sweet Spot. Everyone has a range of challenge that's just right for them, and if something is too easy or too hard the game is quickly going to become uninteresting to them.
The next step is simple: reward players based on accompilshment.
So it's the more "zoomed in" version of my 3 earlier examples:
The Short Race: run level 80 dungeons, get decent gear.
The Normal Race: run level 80 heroics, get better gear.
The Hard Race: run the new icecrown dungeons in heroic, to get the best dungeon gear available.
The same "zoomed in" view should be true of raiding (and questing). Basically at every stage of a game, you should have a variety of options for easy, med, and hard content to attempt to carry you towards the next stage of the game.
I should note once again that WOW's difficulty (especially the heroic system for level 80 dungeons) is hardly a gleaming example of having good difficulty options and appropriate rewards. At least 5 viable methods for superior difficulty options/reward immediately spring to mind. I should probably use CoX in my examples more than WOW, as it had a vastly superior system.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When I see the posts on here, I think back to the 70s/80s while growing up.
You had some folks, like me, that played DnD PnP a couple of times, and those that wanted to live it all the time. Dont get me wrong....I had my nerd side(worked in a comic store in HS)...but at night I was out hanging with friends/doing things/trying to get girls. I wasnt home on Friday nights playing DnD.
Still see it on posts here....got folks wanting to live in an alternate reality....and those that wanna just game with some interaction.
It has nothing to do with generations IMO. It is what you enjoy in your gaming preference.
I luv CRPGs...have for yrs.
But there is a point where it is some sick fantasy to me. It goes back to those that wanted to play a little DnD...and those down in the sewers playing for real.
At least as far as I see it.
I watched folks whine for years about the changes of SWG(some still do)....some claiming it ruined lives. I luved reading this stuff. Cause after I got Crohns Disease in the early 80s, and 20 yrs of anti-inflammatory steroids my life was ruined in 02...i had too many health issues to keep a job despite my exp/education. Even worse now since I take pain meds daily for muscle/joint pain.
Yet there is no way I would whine on a msg brd for yrs on end straight. Then again, I am not the type looking for an alternate reality....just something to entertain myself.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Comments
Everyone has a different sense of "Fun". I don't think old school mmo's are a 2nd job at all, I enjoy them quite well and don't get stressed by them. Yes they may require you to spend more time to get things accompished but I make time for it by not doing other forms of entertainment.
Doing hard things to achieve a goal, can make that goal much more fun when it is acheived.
Solo up to max level in WoW, a time waster, fun for some people, but no real accomplishment.
Grouping to max level in the orginal DAoC, much harder with much more frustration, but much more rewarding when you get there.
So yes, I see the OP's point.
That's why it's good to have different games for different players. There's nothing wrong with WoW, there's nothing wrong with wanting something a bit more immersive, and there's nothing wroing with not liking one of those.
It doesn't mean you need to bash people that don't like what you like.
When they want to change and they successfully continue to change what you do like into something you do not like, it becomes a point of saying enough is enough - go find another freaking game, no? Because the mindless garbage they want is out there - there is no need for them to turn everything into that crap...no?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
IMO, no one has ever achieved this, and you would be an absolute genius if you could.
This is how I see the problem.
You have, for example a race, and a trophy. (Leveling up to max).
Some people want a long hard race, like 25 miles. But other people can't run that far.
The people that can't run that far say, it's not fair. So, there should be a short cut for them, so they can get the trophy.
And they say, look! this is a compromise! It's great for EVERYBODY! because you CAN still take the long way if you WANT to!
And you said you wanted a hard race, and if you REALLY want a hard race, then go ahead and run it. No one is stopping you.
But would that really be so much fun for the people taking the long way, when they know at any moment they could take the short cut and get the same trophy?
Would it really be a "compromise" or does it really just benefit those asking for the short cut, while they ridicule those wanting a harder race, and just calling them names because they don't like the dumbed down race?
The "compromise" always benefits the people wanting the easy way, and then they just say the people that are unhappy about it dont' li9ke "choice".
But really, they've taken away the choice for a no holds barred hard race, if you see what I mean.
If they actually did that, fewer people might complain. They do not leave in the long way though - everybody gets stuck with the short race. They should give people the option to be ridiculed for wanting to go the short race and allow those that enjoy more the chance to continue to do more.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
All statements I make is from my point of view unless stated otherwise.
If you want a casual game i suggest WOW or the 100 clones of it. It's because this market is not only flooded by them but the market for them is very stagnant as well as there is NOTHING thats new to play for us old timers. I need a challenge in a game, i need levels of passage that NOT not everyone can achieve instantly. I want a game where you have to earn your right to stand beside me from a performance standpoint and that will require a substantial time sink that gamers like me are not affraid to invest in.
First generation MMO players were as much social players if not more so then actual game players. The easy mode of modern day games has killed the social element especially for us adult players. Games however interesting they are will only remain so for a relatively short period. The staying power of the MMO is community, comraderie and friendships made. Modern day games really don't have a social element. When WoW was released the social element slowly but surely fell away.
WAR had no social element from the start even though it was made instant gratification easy mode. Casual means anybody can succeed with little or no effort. If they can ever create the old school feel of adventure most of us remember then their is a chance for a new release to capture the glory long lost of first generation fantasy MMO"s. Most of my gamer friends had lots of free time to play. We could play all day on weekends 12+ hours a day without any problems. 4-6 hours a night on work days.
As you can see my group of players was never casual gamers. First and foremost we loved to spend time with each other in a game that was actually interesting and a challenge. Those same players like myself no longer play because of how MMO's are today. I haven't found a game in the past 4 years worth playing more then a month. The MMO market is really in a rut right now and hopefully one day soon that will change.
No, you're not really playing the game while walking around for hours trying to get somewhere, any more than you're "riding the ride" while standing in line at Disneyland. You're in the same ballpark but until you actually sit down on the ride, you're still just standing in line.
Personally, I don't give a damn about progression. If they entirely got rid of leveling and the ridiculous gear fetish, I'd be fine with that. I don't have to "get anywhere" or "show off" to anyone in order to have a good time. As I've said before, I can sit down and play Tetris for hours on end if I want and enjoy it, there is no real progression whatsoever in that game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Because there aren't enough so-called "hardcore" players on the planet to keep the current crop of MMOs alive? It's basic economics. People make games that appeal to people who will pay them money to play.
Is this somehow news?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Standing in line at Disney land =/= exploring the world of an MMORPG.
The "game" is being logged in to the world, whether you are quest grinding, or flirting with a hawt elf chick, or just wandering around lost.
There is no way for YOU to tell someone how to play the game, or that they are not playing, or they have to play like you do.
You log in, you're playing the game if all you do is stand there and read the global chat.
That's part of "the game". The game is not just quest grinding, and that's it.
I can never understand the mentality of some "hardcore" or "oldschool" gamers that makes them nerdrage on new gamers. Is it a new gamers fault they weren't around or aware of the mmorpgs we played 10+ years ago? In my opinion, most the reasons that mmorpgs were streamlined to a fault can all be laid into the oldshool gamers lap. We were the ones that complained about all the time sinks back in the early mmorpgs. Now some gamers didn't complain I'm sure. I never officially complained, but I sure did grumble to myself when I lost countless corpses or had to wait for weeks for a mob to spawn.
Now, in retrospect, I can look back and miss those things. But can you honestly blame todays mmorpgs on the new gamers who really have never been exposed to the way things used to be. All they have to go by are the nerdy ramblings of "oldschool" gamers who blame them for everything.
Think about it for a second. We have lived through the timesinks of the past and can see how they were beneficial to making an mmorpg immersive. We can talk till we're blue in the face. The problem is, on paper, those timesinks look horrible. I can't blame the newbies to mmorpgs to look at us with revulsion and sadness.
He's not saying the "pellet" should be dispensed after a longer period of time...what he's saying is that to reach the overall "pellet" may take longer and require more work, but you are also getting "pellets" along the way and because you had to work for it the overall accomplishment aka pellet is more nurishing and sweeter and you are more full from eating more nurishing and sweeter pellets along the way while gettign to the "grand pellet".
Did I just totally confuse everyone?
Also, people equate casual too much to "I don't have alot of time because of real life issues. Well my second set of examples took maybe an hour and half, maybe two hours tops. I said an hour travel time and the side stuff that came up along the way. It wasn't a 5-8 hour long marathon play session and was interesting, worthwhile interaction. How was this too much time or hardcore? Now I will say that this type of situation wouldn't come up every time you log on, but by not having this type of game with this type of gameplay, you aren't even giving yourself the chance to experience this type of scenario.
Ok last thing and I'll shut up. Yes there is some rose colored nostalgia involved in old school games and you do have a point about these games still being active (and that should tell you something that these old games like UO, EQ and AC still have pretty stable player bases) but name one of these games that hasn't been fundamentally changed over time away from the original game. Take UO for instance. Trammel in one fell swoop pretty much killed pvp interaction and split the player base. The Age of Shadows killed the crafter/merchant economy. Both these things completely changed the immersion quality and interaction between everything, players, world, etc. Same thing with SWG.
Although the message was somewhat aggressive, it is there none the less. This guy hits the nail on the head. I'll add there is nothing we can do about it, as they overwhelm us in numbers.
The whole point of games is to take the pleasure the human mind gets from learning, and concentrate it.
The problem with the original post is that it assumes that what people are after is quick, cheap, easy thrills. That's not really the important part -- that simply comes along with the territory of games being concentrated delight at discovery.
People aren't for cheap thrills as much as they're against tedium.
A while back, I played lots of Starcraft. Never in any of the multiplayer games of it that I played were things tedious, yet I was gradually learning to be better at it -- just like a Football player practices to be better at his game -- and eventually I had many of those "epic win" moments against tough opponents (although I don't live in Korea, so I never got a girl out of it. US culture, you disappoint me!) The amount of tedium over those 2-4 years of playing Starcraft was virtually nonexistant compared alongside the tedium that exists in many MMORPGs.
The "work" in this example was playing an enjoyable game. And that's where oldschool MMORPGs suck -- the "work" is actually tedious and uninteresting; not a fun game.
Really the main argument which makes sense from the oldschool MMORPGers is if they want worlds rather than games. At least that's logical, even if I find those types of games boring because they sacrifice fun gameplay in order to be better simulations.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Equating journeying in an MMO to queuing for a ride would imply that the only parts of an MMO that are a 'game' are the beginning and end points. If you're doing that then why not just cut out everything in the middle? You get the quest then you speak to the same guy and he gives you a reward? It wouldn't work would it? Why not? Because if you didn't have to do something to get the reward it wouldn't feel like the reward was really 'rewarding' you for anything. Hence the more you have to do to get the reward the more rewarding it feels. Newer gamers just don't get this though, they give up half way and say it's crap and unfair because they can't do it.
You've also highlighted the problematic mindset of newer gamers as well. Why can't the journey be fun? All that new gamers are obsessed with is the reward at the end of everything. They don't care about having fun along the way, they just equate being rewarded to fun... I think there was an article on here by the MMORPG.com staff just recently that spoke about this very issue using FARMVILLE of all things as an example. People play farmville just to see their gold counter go up and to see that big 'level up' message every day despite the fact that the game is not fun to play at all. There's just some fundamental weakness of the human psyche to do anything to be rewarded. Playing games like WoW is not fun, people are just addicted to getting rewards.
The first time you down a raid boss... that's genuine fun. Every time after that you're not having fun any more, you're just going through the motions to be rewarded with more loot. When you get that loot you just rinse and repeat, the cycle gets stuck until the devs give you some more content to have fun playing once and then grind for more loot.
'Old school' MMOs were not like this. Players didn't play just to be rewarded, they played to have fun, and got rewards along the way that added to that fun. All that's happened is modern MMO devs have discovered this weakness in gamers and exploited it to its maximum, leaving a trail of 'rewarding' breadcrumbs that lead nowhere.
But exploring is part of the game. Looking at the world, the architecture around of certain ruins around you, groups of wandering mobs, spawn of enemy alliance, name them all. For many gamers ("hardcore" gamers, because exploring has now become something only hardcore do apparently) the fun part of the world is to discover it, learn about the lore, etc. That's how we have fun.
Hell, I often just log into an MMO, sit in town and chat all day. I don't always feel the need to go kill monster to reach Lv.XX or drop gear. I just take my time and enjoy the game. Sometimes I'll just walk around the world, (I do that a lot in DarkFall) and just look around, looking for spots with a great view on the surrounding.
So tell me, how can you tell wether or not we are playing the game if we are doing something we like? And the Disneyland analogy is pretty bad, who said we were "standing in line"?
They would leave. If they can't have it their way, they will get bored and leave. It's as simple as that. "Why should I feel bad about taking the short path? It's discrimination against Casuals! We have a life!"....something we so often hear about, which is actually often irrelevant to the subject....though I won't go into the details.
That said, it is not possible for an MMO to appeal to both "Olds" and "News", we like/enjoy opposite things.It's not a dog/cat issue, it's like trying to mix oil and water.
No, actually you are off base in this conclusion. The reason I don't play DOAC is its not the same game that I loved playing back in the day.
So much as changed, from the crap TOA expansion, all of the instanced pve combat (Catacombs), the massive revamp of the open RVR world (new Frontiers), none of which made the game better. Then they made crafting worthless for the most part by making world drops too superior and pretty much the game I enjoyed is long gone.
They've talked about making a Pre TOA/NF server and if they did I'd go back in a minute.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ihmotepp's Compromise in WOW:
The Short Race: run quests/dungeons to level 1->80. Get a bunch of abilities as a reward. Good jorb.
The Normal Race: run 80 dungeons/heroics to make your character extra awesome. Better jorb.
The Hard Race: run raids, and eventually get the best gear in the game from hard mode raids. Great jorb, only the toughest competitors will beat this one!
(the trick being that this isn't the same "everyone gets the Good Trophy" reward...so it's not actually Ihmotepp's Compromise. But honest, what game gives the best reward to everyone? Not many.)
Sure, WOW's difficulty spread could be substantially improved, but the important thing is to have challenges for all of the "runners" and appropriate rewards.
Honestly when I think about it I've never heard people who run the short race want the rewards of the hard race, in any game -- I mean they "want" those rewards, but they don't feel they deserve them.
The closest is that people like me have wanted there to be different Hard Races (truly difficult 5-10 man progression) which yield Hard Race style rewards.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The only problem I see with that Axehilt is that you still have the serious crutch of doing same content over and over just for gear. Even having harder 5-10 stuff you are still just running the hamster wheel with a different speed and different color wheel. I'm seriously thinking about starting a new thread about content and how it relates to an MMORPW (Guess what the "W" stands for, Axehilt game me the idea in another post on this thread!)
Traveling to get somewhere is part of the adventure. I love to explore and see where I can get to maybe fight a few things on the way. If you're not into that kind of thing then I can understand that it seems like a waste of time.
Repetition (or "Grind") simply describes an insufficient rate of new game mechanics being introduced over time.
The reason for repetition is customer retention. Non-subscription games typically don't ask you to repeat content.
Actually that was a lie. Games are patterns. Fun comes from discovering the pattern. You can't discover a pattern if it never repeats. So games always involve repetition. But it's not a very big lie, because most players don't complain about that type of repetition. Complaints begin after the pattern is discovered, and the same pattern keeps repeating ("I've seen it before...new pattern, already!")
But I can't tell if you were replying to my first or second post.
My second post (on the "compromise" subject of the latter half of the thread) has nothing to do with repetition. You could imagine a game with only three bosses:
Easy: always drops a Sword +1.
Med: always drops Sword +2.
Hard: always drops Sword +3.
Note: zero repetition. But this is the same type of rewards-balancing we see in most games. This is why I criticize Ihmotepp's theory on compromise, because very few games pursue the Bad Compromise (where the Easy boss drops the +3 Sword) and most MMORPGs I've played use the Good Compromise (where tougher things drop better loot.) Bad Compromise in this case is just bad game design. Good Compromise provides all gamers with the challenge they want, and rewards them appropriately.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I agree with most of what you're saying in this thread, but it's worth noting that in vanilla WoW, there was indeed plenty of uproar over Naxx being too difficult on average players, while there were guilds plenty capable of working through the place after having earned the appropriate gear through much effort in the prior raids (BWL etc.). Plenty felt entitled, as it were, to see the place, but didn't want to do the work it required to get there (not for work to be taken out of context - it was half the fun and 40-mans were plenty of it, if not a bit frustrating at times).
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
To a degree, I do agree with this.
Although it's a constraint of the realities of game development. You can't develop content faster than players can consume it in the first place. So you're already behind at all times -- but if your content release only satisfies 3% of you playing population then you're even more behind than normal, so it's typically a Very Bad Idea to produce content in such an inefficient manner.
The thing that matters most is satisfying everyone's Challenge Sweet Spot. Everyone has a range of challenge that's just right for them, and if something is too easy or too hard the game is quickly going to become uninteresting to them.
The next step is simple: reward players based on accompilshment.
So it's the more "zoomed in" version of my 3 earlier examples:
The Short Race: run level 80 dungeons, get decent gear.
The Normal Race: run level 80 heroics, get better gear.
The Hard Race: run the new icecrown dungeons in heroic, to get the best dungeon gear available.
The same "zoomed in" view should be true of raiding (and questing). Basically at every stage of a game, you should have a variety of options for easy, med, and hard content to attempt to carry you towards the next stage of the game.
I should note once again that WOW's difficulty (especially the heroic system for level 80 dungeons) is hardly a gleaming example of having good difficulty options and appropriate rewards. At least 5 viable methods for superior difficulty options/reward immediately spring to mind. I should probably use CoX in my examples more than WOW, as it had a vastly superior system.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
When I see the posts on here, I think back to the 70s/80s while growing up.
You had some folks, like me, that played DnD PnP a couple of times, and those that wanted to live it all the time. Dont get me wrong....I had my nerd side(worked in a comic store in HS)...but at night I was out hanging with friends/doing things/trying to get girls. I wasnt home on Friday nights playing DnD.
Still see it on posts here....got folks wanting to live in an alternate reality....and those that wanna just game with some interaction.
It has nothing to do with generations IMO. It is what you enjoy in your gaming preference.
I luv CRPGs...have for yrs.
But there is a point where it is some sick fantasy to me. It goes back to those that wanted to play a little DnD...and those down in the sewers playing for real.
At least as far as I see it.
I watched folks whine for years about the changes of SWG(some still do)....some claiming it ruined lives. I luved reading this stuff. Cause after I got Crohns Disease in the early 80s, and 20 yrs of anti-inflammatory steroids my life was ruined in 02...i had too many health issues to keep a job despite my exp/education. Even worse now since I take pain meds daily for muscle/joint pain.
Yet there is no way I would whine on a msg brd for yrs on end straight. Then again, I am not the type looking for an alternate reality....just something to entertain myself.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.