blueharp, i said OPINION. NOT a NEAUTRAL DISCUSSION. ifr i wanted to havbe a neutral discusion the title would be LIST THE PROS AND CONS OF A PLAYER DRIVEN WORLD AND A STOLRY DRIVIN WORLD [ABSOLU5TLELY UNBIASED DISCUSSION, NO TAKING SIDES] is that the title. i consciously decided to not list the other side of the argument in order to highlight my OPINION.
now please stop arguing and stay on topic. its my thread and i understand the original reason i posted this. this is to state the preferencem not the pros and cons of both sides,
thank you if you decide to cooperate. if you decide to argue against me well then your post will be a comple waste of time and space and will waste even more by forcing me to reply to you.
You seem confused about a great many things. First off, once again, you don't understand what bias is. Bias is something that prevents you from fairly perceiving a subject. This doesn't mean you can't have preferences, just that I believe you are not giving due consideration to both sides.
Second, you really aren't forced to reply to me. It's really a conscious choice on your part. Just like it's a choice on my part to reply to you. We even get to pick the content of our replies. In my case, I'm choosing to confront you on your bias, which I believe is going to prevent any further discussion. Nothing you've chosen to say so far has convinced me otherwise.
Do you want to try, or do you want to continue to choose to waste your own time?
You can have both at their most extreme and everything that is in between all in the same game.
There is no reason for these kind of discussions to be so prevalent...
It's like arguing whether we should have blue or red armor, which one do you prefer, and the pro's and cons to them, lol.
All these "Vs." discussions are invalid at conception as ALL OF THESE concepts could reside successfully in the same game without causing grief to their counterpart and those that enjoy them.
Further, they are based purely on perceptional preference and shouldn't be forced ad nauseum, nor go unoffered to the player in the first place. Especially once you realize very few people like only one and not the other.
One can't like a story they can be part of and at the same time want to create their own?
One can't want the freedom a sandbox can give but would like varying degrees of direction the theme park can offer?
One can't desire RTS, T/FPS, RPG, or Sim elements and want to go back and forth between?
One can't take the easy road in some situations (Carebear) and want to challenge themselves in others (Hardcore)?
One can't be an explorer, achiever, socializer, and killer all in the same game?
The problem, is that you contemplate what makes you right and others wrong but put absolutely no energy into the idea, that possibly, the premise under which you all argue, is fallacious.
That these mediocre "designers" and profiteering publishers have you all convinced that you MUST choose... and so you do. Ravenously battling each other to "prove" the unprovable, that your opinions and perceptions are more correct than someone else's.
The problem here is not one view or another but rather that one view should take precedence in an MMO in the first place.
The technology is here, accept it.
Start discussing how you could all be made happy with your various likes and dislikes. Discuss not why this would ruin your experience, but instead, how you could design it so it wouldn't and at the same time would allow others to enjoy their own.
You are peasants fighting each other over passages in an arcane novel, all while forgetting it is a novel and that those who wrote it, benefit from and are kept in power by your ignorant tirades.
Maybe people perceive sandboxes as having no content because its actually true. They don't have content. They have tools. Tools aren't content. Quests are content. Dungeons with bosses and lore are content. Battlegrounds and arenas are content.
Sandbox games have Quests/missions, Dungeons, raids, Lore and way more meaningful pvp systems than small CTF matches.
Stop trolling, Sandbox games have content.
What the games lacks is direction. You need to be lead to all of the content, you need a big glowing arrow to everything and it doesnt work that way in sandbox games. Doesn't mean there isnt content it just means you have to be somewhat self motivated to find everything.
Your obviously not this type of player and that's fine you have tons of games that offer that big glowing arrow that say "Fun stuff here".
If you wanted a really really good story in your life where would go that would allow you to be completely absorbed by a story? Ah, a book or a movie that is where.
However, books and movies do not make it possible for players to interact to the point of creating a story. Thus I think player created story in games are much better. Besides, I have about 3 years of intense MMO experience behind me now and I think I have read ONE short quest line in my MMO life. Gaming life goes back even further, same story.
I dont care why billy bob has the item I need to take or even what the item is, just let me explore his house and find it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Maybe people perceive sandboxes as having no content because its actually true. They don't have content. They have tools. Tools aren't content. Quests are content. Dungeons with bosses and lore are content. Battlegrounds and arenas are content.
Sandbox games have Quests/missions, Dungeons, raids, Lore and way more meaningful pvp systems than small CTF matches.
Stop trolling, Sandbox games have content.
What the games lacks is direction. You need to be lead to all of the content, you need a big glowing arrow to everything and it doesnt work that way in sandbox games. Doesn't mean there isnt content it just means you have to be somewhat self motivated to find everything.
Your obviously not this type of player and that's fine you have tons of games that offer that big glowing arrow that say "Fun stuff here".
Which sandboxes have dungeons, raids or quests that rival what WOW has? I'm waiting. Sorry, but Eve's missions are the most basic form of WOW's "kill 25 pigs" quests, which is only one small part of what WOW offers. UO's dungeons and PvE? C'mon, it was lame as can be. EQ blew it away at the time. Sandboxes certainly have content. Try being a wee bit less literal next time. Its just the content is SUB STANDARD are in too short supply compared to theme parks. Finding the content is besides the point. Its not GOOD content. Its not well designed. Its not fun....for the vast majority. No, I'm not the type of player that thinks "finding" content is fun or a good use of my time while playing a game that charges me per month=)
Maybe people perceive sandboxes as having no content because its actually true. They don't have content. They have tools. Tools aren't content. Quests are content. Dungeons with bosses and lore are content. Battlegrounds and arenas are content.
Sandbox games have Quests/missions, Dungeons, raids, Lore and way more meaningful pvp systems than small CTF matches.
Stop trolling, Sandbox games have content.
What the games lacks is direction. You need to be lead to all of the content, you need a big glowing arrow to everything and it doesnt work that way in sandbox games. Doesn't mean there isnt content it just means you have to be somewhat self motivated to find everything.
Your obviously not this type of player and that's fine you have tons of games that offer that big glowing arrow that say "Fun stuff here".
Which sandboxes have dungeons, raids or quests that rival what WOW has? I'm waiting. Sorry, but Eve's missions are the most basic form of WOW's "kill 25 pigs" quests, which is only one small part of what WOW offers. UO's dungeons and PvE? C'mon, it was lame as can be. EQ blew it away at the time. Sandboxes certainly have content. Try being a wee bit less literal next time. Its just the content is SUB STANDARD are in too short supply compared to theme parks. Finding the content is besides the point. Its not GOOD content. Its not well designed. Its not fun....for the vast majority. No, I'm not the type of player that thinks "finding" content is fun or a good use of my time while playing a game that charges me per month=)
Everquest had great dungeons. LGuk and Befallen, in particular. Loved those false floors in Befallen, hehe, and the high level mummy that would sometimes spawn and go marching down the stairs.
Now, early WOW had some great dungeons: Blackrock and Maraudon, for example. But the later WOW dungeons are just 3 rooms and a long hallway. Heck, Violent Hold isn't even that; just one circular room.
Maybe people perceive sandboxes as having no content because its actually true. They don't have content. They have tools. Tools aren't content. Quests are content. Dungeons with bosses and lore are content. Battlegrounds and arenas are content.
Sandbox games have Quests/missions, Dungeons, raids, Lore and way more meaningful pvp systems than small CTF matches.
Stop trolling, Sandbox games have content.
What the games lacks is direction. You need to be lead to all of the content, you need a big glowing arrow to everything and it doesnt work that way in sandbox games. Doesn't mean there isnt content it just means you have to be somewhat self motivated to find everything.
Your obviously not this type of player and that's fine you have tons of games that offer that big glowing arrow that say "Fun stuff here".
Which sandboxes have dungeons, raids or quests that rival what WOW has? I'm waiting. Sorry, but Eve's missions are the most basic form of WOW's "kill 25 pigs" quests, which is only one small part of what WOW offers. UO's dungeons and PvE? C'mon, it was lame as can be. EQ blew it away at the time. Sandboxes certainly have content. Try being a wee bit less literal next time. Its just the content is SUB STANDARD are in too short supply compared to theme parks. Finding the content is besides the point. Its not GOOD content. Its not well designed. Its not fun....for the vast majority. No, I'm not the type of player that thinks "finding" content is fun or a good use of my time while playing a game that charges me per month=)
Having less advanced content than the ten ton gorilla doesnt mean a game doesnt have any. You clearly stated sandbox have no content. If you would have said basic pve content then i would have agreed with you. Obviously a game that requires a player to quest to level and a fully developed raid progression is going to have a better pve experience.
With that said WoW as good as it is can't touch Eve in its pvp (unless you enjoy meaningless pvp in a box). Same goes for Eq against UOs freedom and pvp.
Different strokes for different folks bro but dont go around trolling saying there's no content in sandbox games.
I prefer a sandbox game with limited "arrow" over head themeparks content. If I had my choice, I would play the original SWG over WoW any day of the week. I just wish they fixed the damn bugs, and tweak some of the balance and ganking issues.. SWG had so much potental but lil stupid shit like "macro" leveling, and PvP ganking issues just ruined it.. IF ONLY.. grrrrr
Maybe people perceive sandboxes as having no content because its actually true. They don't have content. They have tools. Tools aren't content. Quests are content. Dungeons with bosses and lore are content. Battlegrounds and arenas are content.
Sandbox games have Quests/missions, Dungeons, raids, Lore and way more meaningful pvp systems than small CTF matches.
Stop trolling, Sandbox games have content.
What the games lacks is direction. You need to be lead to all of the content, you need a big glowing arrow to everything and it doesnt work that way in sandbox games. Doesn't mean there isnt content it just means you have to be somewhat self motivated to find everything.
Your obviously not this type of player and that's fine you have tons of games that offer that big glowing arrow that say "Fun stuff here".
Which sandboxes have dungeons, raids or quests that rival what WOW has? I'm waiting. Sorry, but Eve's missions are the most basic form of WOW's "kill 25 pigs" quests, which is only one small part of what WOW offers. UO's dungeons and PvE? C'mon, it was lame as can be. EQ blew it away at the time. Sandboxes certainly have content. Try being a wee bit less literal next time. Its just the content is SUB STANDARD are in too short supply compared to theme parks. Finding the content is besides the point. Its not GOOD content. Its not well designed. Its not fun....for the vast majority. No, I'm not the type of player that thinks "finding" content is fun or a good use of my time while playing a game that charges me per month=)
Having less advanced content than the ten ton gorilla doesnt mean a game doesnt have any. You clearly stated sandbox have no content. If you would have said basic pve content then i would have agreed with you. Obviously a game that requires a player to quest to level and a fully developed raid progression is going to have a better pve experience.
With that said WoW as good as it is can't touch Eve in its pvp (unless you enjoy meaningless pvp in a box). Same goes for Eq against UOs freedom and pvp.
Different strokes for different folks bro but dont go around trolling saying there's no content in sandbox games.
Depends on your idea of fun PvP. Meaningful reasons to fight with consequences? Thats all Eve. Fun, twitchy, reactive, combat where you make a difference and can feel you actually contribute....thats NOT Eve. Its slow, sit, watch and wait combat. Fun for some, boring for most. I don't need higher meaning and time sinks to have fun....like most.
And the ten gorilla argument...I expect every game I play from now on to be as good as WOW. If it isn't, why invest all the time into it? It will just feel like going backwards. Most people have outgrown the whole, "give the game time to get good" concept.
If the content isn't GOOD, theres no point in even calling it content. Most people have standards and have outgrown trying to justify a game's faults with excuses.
Maybe people perceive sandboxes as having no content because its actually true. They don't have content. They have tools. Tools aren't content. Quests are content. Dungeons with bosses and lore are content. Battlegrounds and arenas are content.
Sandbox games have Quests/missions, Dungeons, raids, Lore and way more meaningful pvp systems than small CTF matches.
Stop trolling, Sandbox games have content.
What the games lacks is direction. You need to be lead to all of the content, you need a big glowing arrow to everything and it doesnt work that way in sandbox games. Doesn't mean there isnt content it just means you have to be somewhat self motivated to find everything.
Your obviously not this type of player and that's fine you have tons of games that offer that big glowing arrow that say "Fun stuff here".
Which sandboxes have dungeons, raids or quests that rival what WOW has? I'm waiting. Sorry, but Eve's missions are the most basic form of WOW's "kill 25 pigs" quests, which is only one small part of what WOW offers. UO's dungeons and PvE? C'mon, it was lame as can be. EQ blew it away at the time. Sandboxes certainly have content. Try being a wee bit less literal next time. Its just the content is SUB STANDARD are in too short supply compared to theme parks. Finding the content is besides the point. Its not GOOD content. Its not well designed. Its not fun....for the vast majority. No, I'm not the type of player that thinks "finding" content is fun or a good use of my time while playing a game that charges me per month=)
Having less advanced content than the ten ton gorilla doesnt mean a game doesnt have any. You clearly stated sandbox have no content. If you would have said basic pve content then i would have agreed with you. Obviously a game that requires a player to quest to level and a fully developed raid progression is going to have a better pve experience.
With that said WoW as good as it is can't touch Eve in its pvp (unless you enjoy meaningless pvp in a box). Same goes for Eq against UOs freedom and pvp.
Different strokes for different folks bro but dont go around trolling saying there's no content in sandbox games.
Depends on your idea of fun PvP. Meaningful reasons to fight with consequences? Thats all Eve.
Agreed
Fun, twitchy, reactive, combat where you make a difference and can feel you actually contribute....thats NOT Eve. Its slow, sit, watch and wait combat.
I wish this was true. You seem to think eve combat is all setting orbit, turning on modules and waiting for someone to die. If so I pity you for not getting into Eve at all. Ask a inty pilot how Passive,wait and see the combat is, or how meaningless combat is in fleet situations.
Fun for some, boring for most. I don't need higher meaning and time sinks to have fun....like most.
Of course you need higher meaning to do things, your game is based on rewards. My reason and meaning to pvp is risk and what i can take from others, yours is what nice epic you get off a vendor. What time sinks? All mmos have time sinks.
And the ten gorilla argument...I expect every game I play from now on to be as good as WOW. If it isn't, why invest all the time into it?
Different games offer different things to different people. If every game needs to have a dungeon system or quest system simlar yet better than WoW you will be sitting here for a very long time with nothing to play. Its variety, In certain game dungeons that are only holes in the wall with a few mobs can be fun to certain people. In certain games pve is nothing but a job mechanic that leads to the games main focus. to judge every feature equally will get you disapointed pretty fast.
As an example if I judged WoW on its pvp against a game like DAoC I would have uninstalled in disgust back in 04. You need to use your head and understand different games have strenghths and weaknesses. WoWs weakness is in its Failure to offer meaningful pvp, Eves failure is to capture the Raid or die and Quest stacker content crowd.
It will just feel like going backwards. Most people have outgrown the whole, "give the game time to get good" concept.
No game has ever released perfect, MMos do get better over time. Look at the two games we're discussing. Wow with its terrible bugs, non-existent pvp, unblanced classes, server stability and all those issues took time to fix, the game doesn't even resemble the original client and same goes for Eve with its problems so have we really outgrown the concept? not at all the "concept" is apart of this video game genre.
If the content isn't GOOD, theres no point in even calling it content. Most people have standards and have outgrown trying to justify a game's faults with excuses.
What excuses would that be? A game focusing on a different aspect of play? Expecting a game to offer you a better experience in a certain area without taking into account the games overall direction is nothing but a failure of the gamer. Eve is a pvp game with pve set up as a currency mechanic just as WoWs is a pve focused game and has pvp set up as a side game to break up the tedious badge farming mechanic that dominates that game.
The only thing I think I'm looking for is a bit more realism. Which to me would include doing away with the holy trinity, doing away with level based loot a sword is a sword after all, doing away with level based resources leather off a level 1 cow is no different then leather off a level 50 cow and wth does iron ore only spawn in certain level zones for god sakes does ever element of mmo these days have to revolve around speed leveling, and maybe not doing away with classes all together but at the very least softening their design some so you can really customize your character.
I would prefer both, but not with a linear story. Lots of story arcs that can be played induvidualy and that will grant you different rewards and different skills that can be handy in building your char for the playerdriven/sandbox game. I think this is the holy grail of MMO's. The game that has it all. Sandbox, story, PvP content, PvE content, player driven economy, risks and rewards. The company that deliver such a game in a polished state will hit paydirt. Bah, its just a dream....
Hauken Stormchaser I want pre-CU back Station.com : We got your game Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
I would prefer both, but not with a linear story. Lots of story arcs that can be played induvidualy and that will grant you different rewards and different skills that can be handy in building your char for the playerdriven/sandbox game. I think this is the holy grail of MMO's. The game that has it all. Sandbox, story, PvP content, PvE content, player driven economy, risks and rewards. The company that deliver such a game in a polished state will hit paydirt. Bah, its just a dream....
I think Final Fantasy XIV may hit this mark. Looks to be a very involved and well-done world design.
I can hardly wait for a new first class MMO to release so I can bid farewell and leave the "Guild Wars-type crowd" in Dalaran.
Player driven is better for me. I like to tell my own stories, versus having stories told to me. Some quests with stories are okay though, I'm not completely opposed.
in my experience with MMO's so far, i've found that player driven games are a lot more fun/challenging, than ones that are storyline orientated, personally i think when players have the opportunity to create, some pretty amazing things can happen, so far the best in game communities i've encountered have been within these kinds of games.
Player driven, with at least some story driven things - i.e. non-player based content.
For example:
Let's say in this hypothetical player-driven game, there is an area with decent resources that has a "build" option on it. Players often fight over this area, build it up, build some sort of defence/fortifications upon it, hire NPC guards and things. Players can set themselves to spawn here, etc.
(stolen from Darkfall? Perhaps, but it's a fairly broad idea anyway)
Anyway, every now and then, a nearby Orc encampment sends a raid on your town.
So say you've just had a fight with some other players, a clan battle or whatever - two archer towers (that had three expensive NPC archers in each) have been destroyed by seige weaponry owned by that player... but oh, terrible timing for the town owner, an Orc raid approaches!
Now the Orcs go through, slaying remaining NPC vendors, players, etc.
Eventually, through the default capturing system (destroy object A, hold position for X minutes, kill all enemies in the area, for example) the Orcs have captured this burning rubble. They then spend NPC moneys on the repairs, and sit at the most basic level of fortification, but upgrade their defences as much as possible. I.e. a burning rubble, with many expensive NPC archers, and some spikes and such at the entrances.
That's what I'd like to see - NPC interaction, along with a mostly player-driven world, though.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
Maybe people perceive sandboxes as having no content because its actually true. They don't have content. They have tools. Tools aren't content. Quests are content. Dungeons with bosses and lore are content. Battlegrounds and arenas are content. Don't talk hypotheticals. What may exist doesn't, so saying people should judge opinions on what COULD BE is stupid. Give players to ability to do whatever they want and you get Second Life...mostly cybering and porn or just hanging out accomplishing and doing nothing FUN. I'm an animator for 15+ years now...building stuff in a game is LAME to me(unless I'm actually getting paid to do it), because the tools SUCK. I'm using Maya and 3DSMax on a daily basis. A videogame won't let me build what I do 8+ hrs a day. Its kiddie stuff. I want to come home and be entertained since I'm creating and entertaining others all the time. The last thing I want to do is PAY to make MORE content for other people or myself. I want to go kill a dragon with my friends and call it a night. I don't want to make a name for myself or leave a mark...its just a videogame, not a virtual life. Once I quit, I'm done. I won't care what happens to the game after I leave.
I feel you lack imagination, and as you pointed out you work in a creative environment. Maybe you should quit that and get an accoutning jobb or work on the line in a factory?
To many people find themself on a career path that dosent suit them, I think you are one of them.
What many of you story fans fail to understand is that most developers dont want to give the players control of their worlds. Because they run the risk of loosing control of their own creation, so its safer to just dish out premade content for the masses. Games such as Linage 2 and EVE have always brought me more excitement then quest and story driven games like World of Warcraft. Why? being your own boss and deciding what to do, within the limits of the game ofc, just brings me more satisfaction. Are linage 2 and EVE perfect games NO. But if more developers had some guts we might just get that perfect game in the future. But sadly I think many of them are just like you: Uncreative, unemagenative FOOLS who likes to blow smoke and behave like jackasses.
For me it has to be player driven, but not the extent that Eve has taken it where nearly everything is player driven. I like to have a world around me that has been designed for a purpose, rather than been designed because some previous players thought it would be cool. EQ or DAoC for example.
Personally, I think Story Driven is killing MMO's. Firstly, they're very much single player games with one path to walk down, probably cut scenes at important points, and a final boss at the end that usually ends up being just out of reach so they can make another expansion down the line.
Story Driven MMO's have also almost literally killed the RPG part. Think about it. I'll take an example from Lord of the Rings Online. I'm on a quest to find what happened to a Black Rider. I eventually find his dead horse and his cloak, but he's vanished and I don't know where to find him. To take a break I head to the Prancing Pony and tell people of my story, that the Black Rider has vanished. But there would be a mixture of responses, such as one person who hasn't even come to that quest yet and is supposedly on the trail of where he was last seen. Or another who had found the Black Rider and banished him back to Mordor.
How do you roleplay in an environment like that? All you can do is what I usually see in the Prancing Pony - people flirting, talking of relationships, or announcing their marriage. If that's all the roleplay a Story Driven MMO has to offer then I'm outta there!
Maybe people perceive sandboxes as having no content because its actually true. They don't have content. They have tools. Tools aren't content. Quests are content. Dungeons with bosses and lore are content. Battlegrounds and arenas are content. Don't talk hypotheticals. What may exist doesn't, so saying people should judge opinions on what COULD BE is stupid. Give players to ability to do whatever they want and you get Second Life...mostly cybering and porn or just hanging out accomplishing and doing nothing FUN. I'm an animator for 15+ years now...building stuff in a game is LAME to me(unless I'm actually getting paid to do it), because the tools SUCK. I'm using Maya and 3DSMax on a daily basis. A videogame won't let me build what I do 8+ hrs a day. Its kiddie stuff. I want to come home and be entertained since I'm creating and entertaining others all the time. The last thing I want to do is PAY to make MORE content for other people or myself. I want to go kill a dragon with my friends and call it a night. I don't want to make a name for myself or leave a mark...its just a videogame, not a virtual life. Once I quit, I'm done. I won't care what happens to the game after I leave.
I feel you lack imagination, and as you pointed out you work in a creative environment. Maybe you should quit that and get an accoutning jobb or work on the line in a factory?
To many people find themself on a career path that dosent suit them, I think you are one of them.
What many of you story fans fail to understand is that most developers dont want to give the players control of their worlds. Because they run the risk of loosing control of their own creation, so its safer to just dish out premade content for the masses. Games such as Linage 2 and EVE have always brought me more excitement then quest and story driven games like World of Warcraft. Why? being your own boss and deciding what to do, within the limits of the game ofc, just brings me more satisfaction. Are linage 2 and EVE perfect games NO. But if more developers had some guts we might just get that perfect game in the future. But sadly I think many of them are just like you: Uncreative, unemagenative FOOLS who likes to blow smoke and behave like jackasses.
Oh yeah, thats it. I'm not creative enough to imagine where the fun is=) Everyone who finds paying a fee to mostly chat and wait around and socialize isn't creative enough to appreciate it all, hehe. What a cliche. The less satisfaction you derive from real life the more people tend to look for it in a game. Why else would one get so involved and care about what means essentially nothing once you quit?
Comments
You seem confused about a great many things. First off, once again, you don't understand what bias is. Bias is something that prevents you from fairly perceiving a subject. This doesn't mean you can't have preferences, just that I believe you are not giving due consideration to both sides.
Second, you really aren't forced to reply to me. It's really a conscious choice on your part. Just like it's a choice on my part to reply to you. We even get to pick the content of our replies. In my case, I'm choosing to confront you on your bias, which I believe is going to prevent any further discussion. Nothing you've chosen to say so far has convinced me otherwise.
Do you want to try, or do you want to continue to choose to waste your own time?
You can have both at their most extreme and everything that is in between all in the same game.
There is no reason for these kind of discussions to be so prevalent...
It's like arguing whether we should have blue or red armor, which one do you prefer, and the pro's and cons to them, lol.
All these "Vs." discussions are invalid at conception as ALL OF THESE concepts could reside successfully in the same game without causing grief to their counterpart and those that enjoy them.
Further, they are based purely on perceptional preference and shouldn't be forced ad nauseum, nor go unoffered to the player in the first place. Especially once you realize very few people like only one and not the other.
One can't like a story they can be part of and at the same time want to create their own?
One can't want the freedom a sandbox can give but would like varying degrees of direction the theme park can offer?
One can't desire RTS, T/FPS, RPG, or Sim elements and want to go back and forth between?
One can't take the easy road in some situations (Carebear) and want to challenge themselves in others (Hardcore)?
One can't be an explorer, achiever, socializer, and killer all in the same game?
The problem, is that you contemplate what makes you right and others wrong but put absolutely no energy into the idea, that possibly, the premise under which you all argue, is fallacious.
That these mediocre "designers" and profiteering publishers have you all convinced that you MUST choose... and so you do. Ravenously battling each other to "prove" the unprovable, that your opinions and perceptions are more correct than someone else's.
The problem here is not one view or another but rather that one view should take precedence in an MMO in the first place.
The technology is here, accept it.
Start discussing how you could all be made happy with your various likes and dislikes. Discuss not why this would ruin your experience, but instead, how you could design it so it wouldn't and at the same time would allow others to enjoy their own.
You are peasants fighting each other over passages in an arcane novel, all while forgetting it is a novel and that those who wrote it, benefit from and are kept in power by your ignorant tirades.
- Burying Threads Since 1979 -
Sandbox games have Quests/missions, Dungeons, raids, Lore and way more meaningful pvp systems than small CTF matches.
Stop trolling, Sandbox games have content.
What the games lacks is direction. You need to be lead to all of the content, you need a big glowing arrow to everything and it doesnt work that way in sandbox games. Doesn't mean there isnt content it just means you have to be somewhat self motivated to find everything.
Your obviously not this type of player and that's fine you have tons of games that offer that big glowing arrow that say "Fun stuff here".
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I perfer player. Here is why.
If you wanted a really really good story in your life where would go that would allow you to be completely absorbed by a story? Ah, a book or a movie that is where.
However, books and movies do not make it possible for players to interact to the point of creating a story. Thus I think player created story in games are much better. Besides, I have about 3 years of intense MMO experience behind me now and I think I have read ONE short quest line in my MMO life. Gaming life goes back even further, same story.
I dont care why billy bob has the item I need to take or even what the item is, just let me explore his house and find it.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Which sandboxes have dungeons, raids or quests that rival what WOW has? I'm waiting. Sorry, but Eve's missions are the most basic form of WOW's "kill 25 pigs" quests, which is only one small part of what WOW offers. UO's dungeons and PvE? C'mon, it was lame as can be. EQ blew it away at the time. Sandboxes certainly have content. Try being a wee bit less literal next time. Its just the content is SUB STANDARD are in too short supply compared to theme parks. Finding the content is besides the point. Its not GOOD content. Its not well designed. Its not fun....for the vast majority. No, I'm not the type of player that thinks "finding" content is fun or a good use of my time while playing a game that charges me per month=)
Everquest had great dungeons. LGuk and Befallen, in particular. Loved those false floors in Befallen, hehe, and the high level mummy that would sometimes spawn and go marching down the stairs.
Now, early WOW had some great dungeons: Blackrock and Maraudon, for example. But the later WOW dungeons are just 3 rooms and a long hallway. Heck, Violent Hold isn't even that; just one circular room.
I prefer a bit of both actually.
Eve is very sandbox-orientated but still has (or they are putting more in now) some story content like epic arcs, event missions and so on.
WoW is a theme park with very limited sandbox options (come on you can't even conquer land?)
Haven't seen a good MMO that mixes both successfully yet.
Having less advanced content than the ten ton gorilla doesnt mean a game doesnt have any. You clearly stated sandbox have no content. If you would have said basic pve content then i would have agreed with you. Obviously a game that requires a player to quest to level and a fully developed raid progression is going to have a better pve experience.
With that said WoW as good as it is can't touch Eve in its pvp (unless you enjoy meaningless pvp in a box). Same goes for Eq against UOs freedom and pvp.
Different strokes for different folks bro but dont go around trolling saying there's no content in sandbox games.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Agreed Rock.. you tell em
I prefer a sandbox game with limited "arrow" over head themeparks content. If I had my choice, I would play the original SWG over WoW any day of the week. I just wish they fixed the damn bugs, and tweak some of the balance and ganking issues.. SWG had so much potental but lil stupid shit like "macro" leveling, and PvP ganking issues just ruined it..
IF ONLY.. grrrrr
Depends on your idea of fun PvP. Meaningful reasons to fight with consequences? Thats all Eve. Fun, twitchy, reactive, combat where you make a difference and can feel you actually contribute....thats NOT Eve. Its slow, sit, watch and wait combat. Fun for some, boring for most. I don't need higher meaning and time sinks to have fun....like most.
And the ten gorilla argument...I expect every game I play from now on to be as good as WOW. If it isn't, why invest all the time into it? It will just feel like going backwards. Most people have outgrown the whole, "give the game time to get good" concept.
If the content isn't GOOD, theres no point in even calling it content. Most people have standards and have outgrown trying to justify a game's faults with excuses.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
The only thing I think I'm looking for is a bit more realism. Which to me would include doing away with the holy trinity, doing away with level based loot a sword is a sword after all, doing away with level based resources leather off a level 1 cow is no different then leather off a level 50 cow and wth does iron ore only spawn in certain level zones for god sakes does ever element of mmo these days have to revolve around speed leveling, and maybe not doing away with classes all together but at the very least softening their design some so you can really customize your character.
I think this is the holy grail of MMO's. The game that has it all. Sandbox, story, PvP content, PvE content, player driven economy, risks and rewards. The company that deliver such a game in a polished state will hit paydirt.
Bah, its just a dream....
Hauken Stormchaser
I want pre-CU back
Station.com : We got your game
Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
I think Final Fantasy XIV may hit this mark. Looks to be a very involved and well-done world design.
I can hardly wait for a new first class MMO to release so I can bid farewell and leave the "Guild Wars-type crowd" in Dalaran.
Player driven is better for me. I like to tell my own stories, versus having stories told to me. Some quests with stories are okay though, I'm not completely opposed.
Nah, because it won't have Jumping, so it automatically sucks.
(I'm sarcastic, but lol @ people who say this)
I prefer a good player driven world to a good story driven world.
I prefer a good story driven world to a bad player driven world.
I prefer any good game to any bad game.
Lord Of The Rings Online has both and it works very well indeed.
Furious Fighters
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm
in my experience with MMO's so far, i've found that player driven games are a lot more fun/challenging, than ones that are storyline orientated, personally i think when players have the opportunity to create, some pretty amazing things can happen, so far the best in game communities i've encountered have been within these kinds of games.
And no adventurous player wants chaos or imbalance, right?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Player driven, with at least some story driven things - i.e. non-player based content.
For example:
Let's say in this hypothetical player-driven game, there is an area with decent resources that has a "build" option on it. Players often fight over this area, build it up, build some sort of defence/fortifications upon it, hire NPC guards and things. Players can set themselves to spawn here, etc.
(stolen from Darkfall? Perhaps, but it's a fairly broad idea anyway)
Anyway, every now and then, a nearby Orc encampment sends a raid on your town.
So say you've just had a fight with some other players, a clan battle or whatever - two archer towers (that had three expensive NPC archers in each) have been destroyed by seige weaponry owned by that player... but oh, terrible timing for the town owner, an Orc raid approaches!
Now the Orcs go through, slaying remaining NPC vendors, players, etc.
Eventually, through the default capturing system (destroy object A, hold position for X minutes, kill all enemies in the area, for example) the Orcs have captured this burning rubble. They then spend NPC moneys on the repairs, and sit at the most basic level of fortification, but upgrade their defences as much as possible. I.e. a burning rubble, with many expensive NPC archers, and some spikes and such at the entrances.
That's what I'd like to see - NPC interaction, along with a mostly player-driven world, though.
I am playing EVE and it's alright... level V skills are a bit much.
You all need to learn to spell.
I feel you lack imagination, and as you pointed out you work in a creative environment. Maybe you should quit that and get an accoutning jobb or work on the line in a factory?
To many people find themself on a career path that dosent suit them, I think you are one of them.
What many of you story fans fail to understand is that most developers dont want to give the players control of their worlds. Because they run the risk of loosing control of their own creation, so its safer to just dish out premade content for the masses. Games such as Linage 2 and EVE have always brought me more excitement then quest and story driven games like World of Warcraft. Why? being your own boss and deciding what to do, within the limits of the game ofc, just brings me more satisfaction. Are linage 2 and EVE perfect games NO. But if more developers had some guts we might just get that perfect game in the future. But sadly I think many of them are just like you: Uncreative, unemagenative FOOLS who likes to blow smoke and behave like jackasses.
For me it has to be player driven, but not the extent that Eve has taken it where nearly everything is player driven. I like to have a world around me that has been designed for a purpose, rather than been designed because some previous players thought it would be cool. EQ or DAoC for example.
Personally, I think Story Driven is killing MMO's. Firstly, they're very much single player games with one path to walk down, probably cut scenes at important points, and a final boss at the end that usually ends up being just out of reach so they can make another expansion down the line.
Story Driven MMO's have also almost literally killed the RPG part. Think about it. I'll take an example from Lord of the Rings Online. I'm on a quest to find what happened to a Black Rider. I eventually find his dead horse and his cloak, but he's vanished and I don't know where to find him. To take a break I head to the Prancing Pony and tell people of my story, that the Black Rider has vanished. But there would be a mixture of responses, such as one person who hasn't even come to that quest yet and is supposedly on the trail of where he was last seen. Or another who had found the Black Rider and banished him back to Mordor.
How do you roleplay in an environment like that? All you can do is what I usually see in the Prancing Pony - people flirting, talking of relationships, or announcing their marriage. If that's all the roleplay a Story Driven MMO has to offer then I'm outta there!
Oh yeah, thats it. I'm not creative enough to imagine where the fun is=) Everyone who finds paying a fee to mostly chat and wait around and socialize isn't creative enough to appreciate it all, hehe. What a cliche. The less satisfaction you derive from real life the more people tend to look for it in a game. Why else would one get so involved and care about what means essentially nothing once you quit?