just resubbed to vanguard, maybe my favorite MMO, even after not playing for 2+ years. Has alot of the things I love in an MMO, and its not too old imo.
1. good PVE, quests, chain quests, lots of things that aren't soloable
2. crafting, best craft system i've played and haven't found anything else thats as indepth
3. Mounts, variety of them, including racial mounts anf flying
4. Housing, Building a house is great, you need help from other craft professions (assuming you dont have them lvled). variety of craftable things to put in your house
5. Guild housing, again its a real team effort to build a guildhouse, with all the mats and cost of it
6. Diplomacy. Great sphere, this is where alot of the good lore is in game. fun quests, seperate gear, my favorite thing to do in vg.
7. sailing, you can build a variety of boats to sail around the world and explore in.
8.Auction house. Good system, no complaints
9.classes/races. wide variety of both, blood mage, bard, psionicst to name a few. they all fell and play different imo.
10. Community was great when i played, very friendly and helpful
Just a few things I like about VG and maybe soe things older gamers want/miss. The game has gotten small as far as population goes, still hopin it'll get turned around with all the games ppl have been dissapointed with lately, maybe give it a chance
just resubbed to vanguard, maybe my favorite MMO, even after not playing for 2+ years. Has alot of the things I love in an MMO, and its not too old imo.
1. good PVE, quests, chain quests, lots of things that aren't soloable
2. crafting, best craft system i've played and haven't found anything else thats as indepth
3. Mounts, variety of them, including racial mounts anf flying
4. Housing, Building a house is great, you need help from other craft professions (assuming you dont have them lvled). variety of craftable things to put in your house
5. Guild housing, again its a real team effort to build a guildhouse, with all the mats and cost of it
6. Diplomacy. Great sphere, this is where alot of the good lore is in game. fun quests, seperate gear, my favorite thing to do in vg.
7. sailing, you can build a variety of boats so sail around the world and exploe in.
8.Auction house. Good system, no complaints
9.classes/races. wide variety of both, blood mage, bard, psionicst to name a few. they all fell and play different imo.
10. Community was great when i played, very friendly and helpful
Just a few things I like about VG and maybe soe things older gamers want/miss. The game has gotten small as far as population goes, still hopin it'll get turned around with all the games ppl have been dissapointed with lately, maybe give it a chance
Vanguard was done in the style of older games, that's why it's such a good and deep game. Sadly, SoE is trying to kill it, because they can't have it competing with EverQuest.
just resubbed to vanguard, maybe my favorite MMO, even after not playing for 2+ years. Has alot of the things I love in an MMO, and its not too old imo.
1. good PVE, quests, chain quests, lots of things that aren't soloable
2. crafting, best craft system i've played and haven't found anything else thats as indepth
3. Mounts, variety of them, including racial mounts anf flying
4. Housing, Building a house is great, you need help from other craft professions (assuming you dont have them lvled). variety of craftable things to put in your house
5. Guild housing, again its a real team effort to build a guildhouse, with all the mats and cost of it
6. Diplomacy. Great sphere, this is where alot of the good lore is in game. fun quests, seperate gear, my favorite thing to do in vg.
7. sailing, you can build a variety of boats so sail around the world and exploe in.
8.Auction house. Good system, no complaints
9.classes/races. wide variety of both, blood mage, bard, psionicst to name a few. they all fell and play different imo.
10. Community was great when i played, very friendly and helpful
Just a few things I like about VG and maybe soe things older gamers want/miss. The game has gotten small as far as population goes, still hopin it'll get turned around with all the games ppl have been dissapointed with lately, maybe give it a chance
Vanguard was done in the style of older games, that's why it's such a good and deep game. Sadly, SoE is trying to kill it, because they can't have it competing with EverQuest.
Yea, I hear alot of that, If its true that's really sad. I feel with a good pop and few things wrinkled out this would be a top 3 MMO.
I agree with Ceph, I thought I knew everything when I was a teenager. Looking back, I was a know it all idiot. Just like all my friends and just about every other teenager at the time.
Parents are right, you will grow up and realize while there are some intrensic similiarites with each generation, theyre a far cry from each other in terms of the type of people they produce.
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
As an overall reason I would have to be wary of such a reason. The reason is becuase the text you are writting is basically the exact same words that came out of my fathers mouth about my generation and its the same he heard from his father and so on. Not saying its incorrect but based on that reality its a risky position to take, one that might require a higher degree of evidence that is not just based on personal experience.
And you know something? I'm sure his father said the same thing, just as mine did. Once you reach that age, you'll realize that he was right all along, just as I did. Believe it or not, life experience makes a big difference.
As an overall reason I would have to be wary of such a reason. The reason is becuase the text you are writting is basically the exact same words that came out of my fathers mouth about my generation and its the same he heard from his father and so on. Not saying its incorrect but based on that reality its a risky position to take, one that might require a higher degree of evidence that is not just based on personal experience.
And you know something? I'm sure his father said the same thing, just as mine did. Once you reach that age, you'll realize that he was right all along, just as I did. Believe it or not, life experience makes a big difference.
1. I am 42 and I think that line is pure bulls*t. Then again I am fairly well self educated which gives me the tools of friggin reason. Its not a generational thing its called growing up.
2. I really think making the arguement that video games today are crap becuase kids are crap is only going to make us trying to illustrate that the games actually were better back then but NOT because our generation was better nearly impossible because of the friggin static.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
As an overall reason I would have to be wary of such a reason. The reason is becuase the text you are writting is basically the exact same words that came out of my fathers mouth about my generation and its the same he heard from his father and so on. Not saying its incorrect but based on that reality its a risky position to take, one that might require a higher degree of evidence that is not just based on personal experience.
And you know something? I'm sure his father said the same thing, just as mine did. Once you reach that age, you'll realize that he was right all along, just as I did. Believe it or not, life experience makes a big difference.
1. I am 42 and I think that line is pure bulls*t. Then again I am fairly well self educated which gives me the tools of friggin reason. Its not a generational thing its called growing up.
2. I really think making the arguement that video games today are crap becuase kids are crap is only going to make us trying to illustrate that the games actually were better back then but NOT because our generation was better nearly impossible because of the friggin static.
The first MMOs didnt cater to children imo, in the late 90's when I played EQ I rarely ran into anyone younger than 20. At the time I dont think computers were commonplace enough for people to turn one over to their kids. Again let me reiterate that it was mostly nerds, like minded, bookwormish nerds. Im proud to have been a nerd among nerds when MMO gaming was in its infancy. I met more great people in EQ than Ive met in every game combined since. However with the advent of WoW, MMOs have started to cater to a younger audience. And with catering to a younger audience comes the need to make the product more approachable. When I think of old school games vs new ones. I think Akira vs Pokemon.
Ill put my secondary education BA, with my minor in child psychology against your forum guesswork anyday of the week. (Go Thunderwolves!)
That's nice someone else with a teaching degree, I have one too. I'm working on my masters in mathematics education at the moment. Alas I have not put forth any gueswork, I have reputiated the claims put forth as they were too weakly argued to hold. Surely you should be able to tell the diffrence?
Im not going to waste countless hours diggin up sources for you, but theyre not hard to find. I could give you names of text books if you want.
I'm only asking you, and others, to back up any claim you make that is signifficant enough to require evidence. One could say that making serious claims without presenting a strong case is dumbing down the argument. Hence why I rarely make strong claims.
Im only substitute teaching til I can find a full time position, but I will say Im pretty sure Ive spent more time around kids than you probably have. Ive got a little less than 10 years in public education, and I will say every year I see the problems getting worse first hand. So yeah, thats my source, personal experience in the field with the children themselves.
Which is called anecdotal evidence, given that you have completed a BA I'll assume you've learned enough about standards of arguments not to trust these.
Do you really want me to cite 100 different sources that say obesity and diabetes is on the rise in our youth, while test scores are getting lower?
Did you display this kind of ill will towards defending claims you made in your BA? I want you to back up claims that are such as to require backing up. I don't think that's unreasonable.
In this case it was not only made a claim of effect, but of cause. Obseity is on the rise, yes that is indeed true, but it's not only on the rise among kids? If it's on the rise in other groups why would this be if it's simply a question about the kids today? Can the link with the aforementioned causes be established?
Can the same causality be established for test scores? Can the results from one years in an internationally comparative study be said to hold for esablishing a trend in national development? Can the link with the claimed causes as to this be established?
Can the link between these and the claims as to computer games be established? Is claims about young kids truly relevant given the average age of gamers?
These would be example of critical questions to ask yourself about your argument.
Also please read Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why America's Children Feel Good About Themselves but Can't Read, Write, or Add by Charles J Sykes. It will help you grasp that which you dont seem to understand.
To me this seems to be a political book written by a political commentator, incidentally one that seems to dissagree with several of the people making comments in the link you gave me about . Is this a relevant scientific work? Can it even be said to be serious or is this some sort of conservative Michael Moore talking about education? I haven't read the book, so I'm at a disadvantage when discussing it, but at face value it does not look very impressive.
Im not lying, America used to be the top dog in terms of Education, and now as I recall were ranked somewhere in the late 20s.
In the late 20s. That's a long time ago. Making claims as to causes for a change in a periode of 90 years comparatively to the rest of the world. That's a very big piece of work.
Im sure you want to defend your generation, thats admirable, but facts dont lie. You wanted sources? here ya go.
My generation? I'm 27, that's 5 years younger than you? Does that qualify as a generation now? As it happens I'm not american either, so claims as to the failings of american youth does not hit particilary close to home.
P.S. Im really looking forward to hearing your rebuttable against cold hard facts.
Your impressive education and resume aside, your evidence and grasp of critical thinking leaves much to be desired. You have presented some facts and some sources that in the best of worlds would not be counted as facts. Now all you need to do is to establish causal links that support the claims you made, something you should have done a long time ago.
I have noting to rebute as of yet since you still have not made anything resembeling an argument.
as someone who agrees that older games are better than newer games I think the arguement that the reason is becuase the older generation of consumers as a whole are better than the new generation of consumers as a whole is completely total bullsh99t
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
<p>Id be willing to bet you dont have much teaching experience. Math teachers with masters degrees arent the ones in the trenches. Theyre generally the ones teaching the rich white kids in private schools.</p> <p>I dare you, come to southern Colorado, it has one otf the worst education systems in America with your degree and do some good for the people that need it.</p> <p>P.S. Stick to math. And leave creative writing to those who are good at it.</p> <p> </p> <p><img border="0" src="http://images.mmorpg.com/images/emoticons/emt_bigsmile.gif"; /></p> <blockquote> <i>Originally posted by J.Yossarian</i><br /> <blockquote> <b><i>Originally posted by Arcken</i> </b> <p><br /> <b><b> Ill put my secondary education BA, with my minor in child psychology against your forum guesswork anyday of the week. (Go Thunderwolves!)</b></b></p> <p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">That's nice someone else with a teaching degree, I have one too. I'm working on my masters in mathematics education at the moment. Alas I have not put forth any gueswork, I have reputiated the claims put forth as they were too weakly argued to hold. Surely you should be able to tell the diffrence?</span></strong></b></p> <p><b><b>Im not going to waste countless hours diggin up sources for you, but theyre not hard to find. I could give you names of text books if you want.</b></b></p> <p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">I'm only asking you, and others, to back up any claim you make that is signifficant enough to require evidence. One could say that making serious claims without presenting a strong case is dumbing down the argument. Hence why I rarely make strong claims. </span></strong></b></p> <p><b><b>Im only substitute teaching til I can find a full time position, but I will say Im pretty sure Ive spent more time around kids than you probably have. Ive got a little less than 10 years in public education, and I will say every year I see the problems getting worse first hand. So yeah, thats my source, personal experience in the field with the children themselves.</b></b></p> <p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><span style="font-weight: bold">Which is called anecdotal evidence, given that you have completed a BA I'll assume you've learned enough about standards of arguments not<img border="0" src="http://images.mmorpg.com/images/emoticons/emt_bigsmile.gif"; /> to trust these. </span> </span></strong></b></p> <p><b><b>Do you really want me to cite 100 different sources that say obesity and diabetes is on the rise in our youth, while test scores are getting lower?</b></b></p> <p><b><b>For your obesity proof: <a href="http://www.buzzle.com/articles/childhood-obesity-statistics-facts.html">http://www.buzzle.com/articles/childhood-obesity-statistics-facts.html</a></b></b></p>; <p><b><b>For your failing test scores proof: <a href="http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm">http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm</a></b></b></p>; <p><b> </b></p> <p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">Did you display this kind of ill will towards defending claims you made in your BA? I want you to back up claims that are such as to require backing up. I don't think that's unreasonable.</span></strong></b></p> <p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">In this case it was not only made a claim of effect, but of cause. Obseity is on the rise, yes that is indeed true, but it's not only on the rise among kids? If it's on the rise in other groups why would this be if it's simply a question about the kids today? Can the link with the aforementioned causes be established? </span></strong></b></p> <p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">Can the same causality be established for test scores? Can the results from one years in an internationally comparative study be said to hold for esablishing a trend in national development? Can the link with the claimed causes as to this be established?</span></strong></b></p> <p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">Can the link between these and the claims as to computer games be established? Is claims about young kids truly relevant given the average age of gamers?</span></strong></b></p> <p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">These would be example of critical questions to ask yourself about your argument.</span></strong></b></p> <p><b><b>Also please read Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why America's Children Feel Good About Themselves but Can't Read, Write, or Add by Charles J Sykes. It will help you grasp that which you dont seem to understand.</b></b></p> <p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>To me this seems to be a political book written by a political commentator</b></span><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>, incidentally one that seems to dissagree with several of the people making comments in the link you gave me about . Is this a relevant scientific work? Can it even be said to be serious or is this some sort of conservative Michael Moore talking about education? I haven't read the book, so I'm at a disadvantage when discussing it, but at face value it does not look very impressive.</b></span></b></p> <p><b><b>Im not lying, America used to be the top dog in terms of Education, and now as I recall were ranked somewhere in the late 20s.</b></b></p> <p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>In the late 20s. That's a long time ago. Making claims as to causes for a change in a periode of 90 years comparatively to the rest of the world. That's a very big piece of work.</b> </span></b></p> <p><b><b>Im sure you want to defend your generation, thats admirable, but facts dont lie. You wanted sources? here ya go.</b></b></p> <p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>My generation? I'm 27, that's 5 years younger than you? Does that qualify as a generation now? As it happens I'm not american either, so claims as to the failings of american youth does not hit particilary close to home. </b></span></b></p> <p><b><b>P.S. Im really looking forward to hearing your rebuttable against cold hard facts.</b></b></p> <p><b> </b></p> <p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>Your impressive education and resume aside, your evidence and grasp of critical thinking leaves much to be desired. You have presented some facts and some sources that in the best of worlds would not be counted as facts. Now all you need to do is to establish causal links that support the claims you made, something you should have done a long time ago.</b></span></b></p> <p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>I have noting to rebute as of yet since you still have not made anything resembeling an argument.</b></span></b></p> </blockquote> </blockquote>
I dont think Im saying that their generation sucks. Im saying that what older gamers want is being killed off as older gamers move on. Newer games are catered to a different generation of people who learn differently. So it leaves older gamers out in the cold. Its not "you suck cause your young and it influences the games being made based on what you want"
its "the whole things sucks because older gamers expected better and are constantly disappointed based on the fact that were no longer the target audience."
I dont think Im saying that their generation sucks. Im saying that what older gamers want is being killed off as older gamers move on. Newer games are catered to a different generation of people who learn differently. So it leaves older gamers out in the cold. Its not "you suck cause your young and it influences the games being made based on what you want"
its "the whole things sucks because older gamers expected better and are constantly disappointed based on the fact that were no longer the target audience."
Now I do agree that the demographic of gamers has changed.
Back in the day a gamer would be a more demanding gamer, where as today games have branched out to the general population who have smaller demands. That I agree with.
I just dont agree that overall one generation of people are less than or greater than as evidene by the games that are made. That is all i am saying
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I dont think Im saying that their generation sucks. Im saying that what older gamers want is being killed off as older gamers move on. Newer games are catered to a different generation of people who learn differently. So it leaves older gamers out in the cold. Its not "you suck cause your young and it influences the games being made based on what you want"
its "the whole things sucks because older gamers expected better and are constantly disappointed based on the fact that were no longer the target audience."
"older gamers expect better"? This is where you miss the point. Older games are not better, they are different and usually worse.
I'll give you an example: I like driving cars on tracks. Specifically, I prefer driving older cars, which has no driver aids. However, I am not dumb enough to claim older cars are better than newer ones because I enjoy driving them on tracks. They are better suited, in my opinion, for that particular use, however they are much worse in almost all other respects.
Posts like these does not prove anything but the fact that time and technology has passes you by. There is an adage which goes something like: "What was made before you turn 15 is old, what was made when you were between 15 and 30 is new and cool, and anything made after you turn 30 is against the natural order of things and are bad."
I dont think Im saying that their generation sucks. Im saying that what older gamers want is being killed off as older gamers move on. Newer games are catered to a different generation of people who learn differently. So it leaves older gamers out in the cold. Its not "you suck cause your young and it influences the games being made based on what you want"
its "the whole things sucks because older gamers expected better and are constantly disappointed based on the fact that were no longer the target audience."
Now I do agree that the demographic of gamers has changed.
Back in the day a gamer would be a more demanding gamer, where as today games have branched out to the general population who have smaller demands. That I agree with.
I just dont agree that overall one generation of people are less than or greater than as evidene by the games that are made. That is all i am saying
I agree totally. If you ask me, man in on the point of an evolutionary breakthrough. Think about what a difference technology has made in what it is to be a kid today. Im gonna throw an analogy out there to try to explain my point.
When a teacher tells you do to a report on Greece:
Back in the day, you had to have someone take you to the library, you had to dig through the old card catalogue, probably consult the librarian, then pheruse all the different shelves looking for the different books you need. You had to get all those books, take them home, read through them. And then finally you could go home and actually start writing the paper. Course if you were like me, you had to type the paper on an old electric typewriter that you had to constantly start over after using too much white out. It was a lot of work. Not to mention you had to make sure all your grammar was correct because no computer was there to tell you that you spelled something wrong.
These days:
You go home, turn on the computer, do a little surfing, regurgitate it in paraphrase, hit print and viola! Papers done!
With everything being so efficient and easy, not just in MMOs, but a lot of other things, I feel robbed of my sense of accomplishment.
I dont think Im saying that their generation sucks. Im saying that what older gamers want is being killed off as older gamers move on. Newer games are catered to a different generation of people who learn differently. So it leaves older gamers out in the cold. Its not "you suck cause your young and it influences the games being made based on what you want"
its "the whole things sucks because older gamers expected better and are constantly disappointed based on the fact that were no longer the target audience."
"older gamers expect better"? This is where you miss the point. Older games are not better, they are different and usually worse.
I'll give you an example: I like driving cars on tracks. Specifically, I prefer driving older cars, which has no driver aids. However, I am not dumb enough to claim older cars are better than newer ones because I enjoy driving them on tracks. They are better suited, in my opinion, for that particular use, however they are much worse in almost all other respects.
Posts like these does not prove anything but the fact that time and technology has passes you by. There is an adage which goes something like: "What was made before you turn 15 is old, what was made when you were between 15 and 30 is new and cool, and anything made after you turn 30 is against the natural order of things and are bad."
Your example doesnt make any sense. Lets see if I can explain it better for you via analogy.
its like old school McDonalds fries, fried in delicious animal fat. If youve never had one, you cant understand the difference.
Now a days, they have new fries. But theyre not the same, theyre made differently, nut mark my words if you ever had a McDonalds french fry 20 years ago, you would probably lose your mind.
But the new fries are supposedly "better" regardless of the basis of why they consider them "better" its a matter of opinion. But none the less, I think if transported all the kids today that have never had one back in time to experience the the food and enviroment of McDonalds, Id be willing to bet theyd say its better than McDonalds now.
The problem is, since they dont know how the restaurant used to be, how could you expect somonene who eats there now to have an accurate comparison between the two?
Now I do agree that the demographic of gamers has changed.
Back in the day a gamer would be a more demanding gamer, where as today games have branched out to the general population who have smaller demands. That I agree with.
I just dont agree that overall one generation of people are less than or greater than as evidene by the games that are made. That is all i am saying
"Back in the day" i would play any game I could come across. There weren't exactly a dozen relases every day, so the games which were released I had to play, whether I liked them or not. Today I try a game, and if I don't like it within 5-10 minutes, I uninstall it and move on. Was I more demanding 15-20 years ago or today?
I agree totally. If you ask me, man in on the point of an evolutionary breakthrough. Think about what a difference technology has made in what it is to be a kid today. Im gonna throw an analogy out there to try to explain my point.
When a teacher tells you do to a report on Greece:
Back in the day, you had to have someone take you to the library, you had to dig through the old card catalogue, probably consult the librarian, then pheruse all the different shelves looking for the different books you need. You had to get all those books, take them home, read through them. And then finally you could go home and actually start writing the paper. Course if you were like me, you had to type the paper on an old electric typewriter that you had to constantly start over after using too much white out. It was a lot of work. Not to mention you had to make sure all your grammar was correct because no computer was there to tell you that you spelled something wrong.
These days:
You go home, turn on the computer, do a little surfing, regurgitate it in paraphrase, hit print and viola! Papers done!
With everything being so efficient and easy, not just in MMOs, but a lot of other things, I feel robbed of my sense of accomplishment.
That is not what I am saying. That is back to the one generation is better or better taught than the previous which is something in the context of the quality fo games I do not suscribe to. Here is what I am saying
in the 1990's gaming was still very much a 'geek' thing.
in the 2000's games are more mainstream and everyone plays them.
So, the demographics of who purchases games in the 90's is different than from the 00's given my statement above.
retarded people have aways existed in mass, its just the games are now starting to work itself into the retarded market more than before.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Now I do agree that the demographic of gamers has changed.
Back in the day a gamer would be a more demanding gamer, where as today games have branched out to the general population who have smaller demands. That I agree with.
I just dont agree that overall one generation of people are less than or greater than as evidene by the games that are made. That is all i am saying
"Back in the day" i would play any game I could come across. There weren't exactly a dozen relases every day, so the games which were released I had to play, whether I liked them or not. Today I try a game, and if I don't like it within 5-10 minutes, I uninstall it and move on. Was I more demanding 15-20 years ago or today?
The difference was, back in the day, you didnt have access to many games. I can remember when I first got into RPGs in the late 80s, there were only a handful of RPGs available. Since there were so few, I played games that I didnt even think that highly of, because frankly, there werent anymore.
Again it ties back into having access to whatever you want. You have the option of being picky today, back in the day? Not so much
okay, im telling you now i dont have much experience with older mmo's, but from what ive heard daoc, swg and uo to nambe a small few older does USSUALLY seem better.
i didnt notice this from mmo's but when i thought about it it seemed to apply to them.
what do you think.
Taking people at their word when they say "the present sucks, the past rocked" is very naive. Might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of nostalgia.
Nothing is more cliche'd than your comment. Ill take nostalgia over captain obvious and his forum force anyday.
Eh? The only "obvious" thing is that discussing the past/present of MMORPGs (while ignoring half of the truth -- the bad half) would be a waste of everyone's time.
Nostalgia is a half-truth; a diarrhea of positives. It doesn't make for useful conversation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
okay, im telling you now i dont have much experience with older mmo's, but from what ive heard daoc, swg and uo to nambe a small few older does USSUALLY seem better.
i didnt notice this from mmo's but when i thought about it it seemed to apply to them.
what do you think.
Taking people at their word when they say "the present sucks, the past rocked" is very naive. Might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of nostalgia.
Nothing is more cliche'd than your comment. Ill take nostalgia over captain obvious and his forum force anyday.
Eh? The only "obvious" thing is that discussing the past/present of MMORPGs (while ignoring half of the truth of past MMORPGs -- the bad half) would be a waste of everyone's time.
Nostalgia is a half-truth; a diarrhea of positives. It doesn't make for useful conversation.
It's even worse if you're second-hand nostalgic (as the OP is, regarding the MMORPGs he mentions.)
I dont think that its not so much that we ignroe the bad half. At the time MMOs were mind blowing, I had nothing to compare it to in terms of being able to tell if it was good or bad. Its like sex, it may have been terrible your first time, but that first time is always the most memorable.
I wouldn't say that older games were necessarily better, but I would say that they exceeded my expectations more than newer games. That might just be because my expectations are higher these days and I'm less tolerant of game mechanics that are broken or lacking.
Id be willing to bet you dont have much teaching experience. Math teachers with masters degrees arent the ones in the trenches. Theyre generally the ones teaching the rich white kids in private schools.
I dare you, come to southern Colorado, it has one otf the worst education systems in America with your degree and do some good for the people that need it.
P.S. Stick to math. And leave creative writing to those who are good at it.
I've noticed that you do some creative writing, I'm asking for less creativity and more critical reflection. Anecdotal evidence is not a strenght as such.
That aside, I will have to dissapoint you, I'm not planing emigration to the United States.
I dont think that its not so much that we ignroe the bad half. At the time MMOs were mind blowing, I had nothing to compare it to in terms of being able to tell if it was good or bad. Its like sex, it may have been terrible your first time, but that first time is always the most memorable.
At the time, Pong was mind-blowing because there was nothing to compare it to. 30 years later though, it's just not that impressive. The first generation of anything is great because nobody understands what makes it great, just that it's new and ought to be great. But as time goes on and people get more experience, people realize that, except for the nostalgia factor, the first generation is rarely ever anything to be all that excited about.
Someone said it a while ago about the C&C games. The older games like C&C, Red Alert, Tiberian Sun etc. Compared to the newer ones i wholeheartedly agree that theyre alot better.
Dune 2. A really old rts with tanks and sandworms.. I still remember.
I still sometimes play Civilization 2. I looked at the new Civilization 5 at gametrailers.com. Iam not impressed. I dont think ill even try it. Maybe iam old, maybe i just like the old Civilization 2.
Zelda on gameboy. Its simple, fun and sometimes you have to solve puzzles. Since i still remember, it must be better than the shitloads of games ive forgotten.
I played Fallout alot. Its still a great rpg. I think in many ways its better than Fallout 3.
Before Balldurs Gate: Shadows Of Amn were released, i had read a 4 page preview of the game in PC Gamer UK. That game game me everything i wanted and lots more. Iam sure i havent done everything in that game yet.. and i never played through the expansion. I dont even know what game to compare it to, its still the best rpg ive ever played.
One of the more recent games i played were Mass Effect. Even tho theres alot of things i dont like about it, i still enjoyed it. In comparison, Mass Effect 2 i played for less than 30min.
If newer games are better than old ones depends on the quality of the game and the concept. Looking back at my gamer history i can say one thing. If you take an old game and "remake" it, youll most likely dissapoint alot of people. Its the same in games, movies and a bunch of other stuff. Peoples perception of that thing is allready formed. If you make a movie and it becomes a success. Then you decide to make a sequel with a different director and different actors, it most likely becomes shit.
We "old" gamers have come to expect certain things, or we have formed oppinions about how we like to play.
Another thing thats getting verry annoying about the world is the business mentality. If the sole goal of making a product is to make money, then it will become shit.
The only reason it is like this is because people buy complete crap apparently without thinking about it. A mate of mine complained about this erlier today. He were really pissed off becouse one tv channel have bought the rights for all the soccer games. In effect it means that nobody can watch soccer without paying shitloads of money. And the worst part about it is that they WILL.
In games context i think its the same. People get fucked over and its like "Heres my $50, thank you!".
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
Id be willing to bet you dont have much teaching experience. Math teachers with masters degrees arent the ones in the trenches. Theyre generally the ones teaching the rich white kids in private schools.
I dare you, come to southern Colorado, it has one otf the worst education systems in America with your degree and do some good for the people that need it.
P.S. Stick to math. And leave creative writing to those who are good at it.
I've noticed that you do some creative writing, I'm asking for less creativity and more critical reflection. Anecdotal evidence is not a strenght as such.
That aside, I will have to dissapoint you, I'm not planing emigration to the United States.
Actually you havent disappointed me. Youve made me esctatic for admitting you are talking about education in a country you dont live in and a system therein you know nothing about. That explains a lot about this coversation.
Actually you havent disappointed me. Youve made me esctatic for admitting you are talking about education in a country you dont live in and a system therein you know nothing about. That explains a lot about this coversation.
If you had spesified that you were talking about american youth (you didn't) you'd still have a weak case. I'm simply claiming that you can't prove your claims, that doesn't require me to know anything more than basic philosophy of science (so far).
Comments
just resubbed to vanguard, maybe my favorite MMO, even after not playing for 2+ years. Has alot of the things I love in an MMO, and its not too old imo.
1. good PVE, quests, chain quests, lots of things that aren't soloable
2. crafting, best craft system i've played and haven't found anything else thats as indepth
3. Mounts, variety of them, including racial mounts anf flying
4. Housing, Building a house is great, you need help from other craft professions (assuming you dont have them lvled). variety of craftable things to put in your house
5. Guild housing, again its a real team effort to build a guildhouse, with all the mats and cost of it
6. Diplomacy. Great sphere, this is where alot of the good lore is in game. fun quests, seperate gear, my favorite thing to do in vg.
7. sailing, you can build a variety of boats to sail around the world and explore in.
8.Auction house. Good system, no complaints
9.classes/races. wide variety of both, blood mage, bard, psionicst to name a few. they all fell and play different imo.
10. Community was great when i played, very friendly and helpful
Just a few things I like about VG and maybe soe things older gamers want/miss. The game has gotten small as far as population goes, still hopin it'll get turned around with all the games ppl have been dissapointed with lately, maybe give it a chance
Vanguard was done in the style of older games, that's why it's such a good and deep game. Sadly, SoE is trying to kill it, because they can't have it competing with EverQuest.
Yea, I hear alot of that, If its true that's really sad. I feel with a good pop and few things wrinkled out this would be a top 3 MMO.
Parents are right, you will grow up and realize while there are some intrensic similiarites with each generation, theyre a far cry from each other in terms of the type of people they produce.
1. I am 42 and I think that line is pure bulls*t. Then again I am fairly well self educated which gives me the tools of friggin reason. Its not a generational thing its called growing up.
2. I really think making the arguement that video games today are crap becuase kids are crap is only going to make us trying to illustrate that the games actually were better back then but NOT because our generation was better nearly impossible because of the friggin static.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
as someone who agrees that older games are better than newer games I think the arguement that the reason is becuase the older generation of consumers as a whole are better than the new generation of consumers as a whole is completely total bullsh99t
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
<p>Id be willing to bet you dont have much teaching experience. Math teachers with masters degrees arent the ones in the trenches. Theyre generally the ones teaching the rich white kids in private schools.</p>
<p>I dare you, come to southern Colorado, it has one otf the worst education systems in America with your degree and do some good for the people that need it.</p>
<p>P.S. Stick to math. And leave creative writing to those who are good at it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><img border="0" src="http://images.mmorpg.com/images/emoticons/emt_bigsmile.gif"; /></p>
<blockquote>
<i>Originally posted by J.Yossarian</i><br />
<blockquote>
<b><i>Originally posted by Arcken</i> </b>
<p><br />
<b><b> Ill put my secondary education BA, with my minor in child psychology against your forum guesswork anyday of the week. (Go Thunderwolves!)</b></b></p>
<p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">That's nice someone else with a teaching degree, I have one too. I'm working on my masters in mathematics education at the moment. Alas I have not put forth any gueswork, I have reputiated the claims put forth as they were too weakly argued to hold. Surely you should be able to tell the diffrence?</span></strong></b></p>
<p><b><b>Im not going to waste countless hours diggin up sources for you, but theyre not hard to find. I could give you names of text books if you want.</b></b></p>
<p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">I'm only asking you, and others, to back up any claim you make that is signifficant enough to require evidence. One could say that making serious claims without presenting a strong case is dumbing down the argument. Hence why I rarely make strong claims. </span></strong></b></p>
<p><b><b>Im only substitute teaching til I can find a full time position, but I will say Im pretty sure Ive spent more time around kids than you probably have. Ive got a little less than 10 years in public education, and I will say every year I see the problems getting worse first hand. So yeah, thats my source, personal experience in the field with the children themselves.</b></b></p>
<p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><span style="font-weight: bold">Which is called anecdotal evidence, given that you have completed a BA I'll assume you've learned enough about standards of arguments not<img border="0" src="http://images.mmorpg.com/images/emoticons/emt_bigsmile.gif"; /> to trust these. </span> </span></strong></b></p>
<p><b><b>Do you really want me to cite 100 different sources that say obesity and diabetes is on the rise in our youth, while test scores are getting lower?</b></b></p>
<p><b><b>For your obesity proof: <a href="http://www.buzzle.com/articles/childhood-obesity-statistics-facts.html">http://www.buzzle.com/articles/childhood-obesity-statistics-facts.html</a></b></b></p>;
<p><b><b>For your failing test scores proof: <a href="http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm">http://4brevard.com/choice/international-test-scores.htm</a></b></b></p>;
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">Did you display this kind of ill will towards defending claims you made in your BA? I want you to back up claims that are such as to require backing up. I don't think that's unreasonable.</span></strong></b></p>
<p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">In this case it was not only made a claim of effect, but of cause. Obseity is on the rise, yes that is indeed true, but it's not only on the rise among kids? If it's on the rise in other groups why would this be if it's simply a question about the kids today? Can the link with the aforementioned causes be established? </span></strong></b></p>
<p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">Can the same causality be established for test scores? Can the results from one years in an internationally comparative study be said to hold for esablishing a trend in national development? Can the link with the claimed causes as to this be established?</span></strong></b></p>
<p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">Can the link between these and the claims as to computer games be established? Is claims about young kids truly relevant given the average age of gamers?</span></strong></b></p>
<p><b><strong><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)">These would be example of critical questions to ask yourself about your argument.</span></strong></b></p>
<p><b><b>Also please read Dumbing Down Our Kids: Why America's Children Feel Good About Themselves but Can't Read, Write, or Add by Charles J Sykes. It will help you grasp that which you dont seem to understand.</b></b></p>
<p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>To me this seems to be a political book written by a political commentator</b></span><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>, incidentally one that seems to dissagree with several of the people making comments in the link you gave me about . Is this a relevant scientific work? Can it even be said to be serious or is this some sort of conservative Michael Moore talking about education? I haven't read the book, so I'm at a disadvantage when discussing it, but at face value it does not look very impressive.</b></span></b></p>
<p><b><b>Im not lying, America used to be the top dog in terms of Education, and now as I recall were ranked somewhere in the late 20s.</b></b></p>
<p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>In the late 20s. That's a long time ago. Making claims as to causes for a change in a periode of 90 years comparatively to the rest of the world. That's a very big piece of work.</b> </span></b></p>
<p><b><b>Im sure you want to defend your generation, thats admirable, but facts dont lie. You wanted sources? here ya go.</b></b></p>
<p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>My generation? I'm 27, that's 5 years younger than you? Does that qualify as a generation now? As it happens I'm not american either, so claims as to the failings of american youth does not hit particilary close to home. </b></span></b></p>
<p><b><b>P.S. Im really looking forward to hearing your rebuttable against cold hard facts.</b></b></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>Your impressive education and resume aside, your evidence and grasp of critical thinking leaves much to be desired. You have presented some facts and some sources that in the best of worlds would not be counted as facts. Now all you need to do is to establish causal links that support the claims you made, something you should have done a long time ago.</b></span></b></p>
<p><b><span style="color: rgb(255,0,0)"><b>I have noting to rebute as of yet since you still have not made anything resembeling an argument.</b></span></b></p>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
I dont think Im saying that their generation sucks. Im saying that what older gamers want is being killed off as older gamers move on. Newer games are catered to a different generation of people who learn differently. So it leaves older gamers out in the cold. Its not "you suck cause your young and it influences the games being made based on what you want"
its "the whole things sucks because older gamers expected better and are constantly disappointed based on the fact that were no longer the target audience."
Now I do agree that the demographic of gamers has changed.
Back in the day a gamer would be a more demanding gamer, where as today games have branched out to the general population who have smaller demands. That I agree with.
I just dont agree that overall one generation of people are less than or greater than as evidene by the games that are made. That is all i am saying
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"older gamers expect better"? This is where you miss the point. Older games are not better, they are different and usually worse.
I'll give you an example: I like driving cars on tracks. Specifically, I prefer driving older cars, which has no driver aids. However, I am not dumb enough to claim older cars are better than newer ones because I enjoy driving them on tracks. They are better suited, in my opinion, for that particular use, however they are much worse in almost all other respects.
Posts like these does not prove anything but the fact that time and technology has passes you by. There is an adage which goes something like: "What was made before you turn 15 is old, what was made when you were between 15 and 30 is new and cool, and anything made after you turn 30 is against the natural order of things and are bad."
I agree totally. If you ask me, man in on the point of an evolutionary breakthrough. Think about what a difference technology has made in what it is to be a kid today. Im gonna throw an analogy out there to try to explain my point.
When a teacher tells you do to a report on Greece:
Back in the day, you had to have someone take you to the library, you had to dig through the old card catalogue, probably consult the librarian, then pheruse all the different shelves looking for the different books you need. You had to get all those books, take them home, read through them. And then finally you could go home and actually start writing the paper. Course if you were like me, you had to type the paper on an old electric typewriter that you had to constantly start over after using too much white out. It was a lot of work. Not to mention you had to make sure all your grammar was correct because no computer was there to tell you that you spelled something wrong.
These days:
You go home, turn on the computer, do a little surfing, regurgitate it in paraphrase, hit print and viola! Papers done!
With everything being so efficient and easy, not just in MMOs, but a lot of other things, I feel robbed of my sense of accomplishment.
Your example doesnt make any sense. Lets see if I can explain it better for you via analogy.
its like old school McDonalds fries, fried in delicious animal fat. If youve never had one, you cant understand the difference.
Now a days, they have new fries. But theyre not the same, theyre made differently, nut mark my words if you ever had a McDonalds french fry 20 years ago, you would probably lose your mind.
But the new fries are supposedly "better" regardless of the basis of why they consider them "better" its a matter of opinion. But none the less, I think if transported all the kids today that have never had one back in time to experience the the food and enviroment of McDonalds, Id be willing to bet theyd say its better than McDonalds now.
The problem is, since they dont know how the restaurant used to be, how could you expect somonene who eats there now to have an accurate comparison between the two?
"Back in the day" i would play any game I could come across. There weren't exactly a dozen relases every day, so the games which were released I had to play, whether I liked them or not. Today I try a game, and if I don't like it within 5-10 minutes, I uninstall it and move on. Was I more demanding 15-20 years ago or today?
That is not what I am saying. That is back to the one generation is better or better taught than the previous which is something in the context of the quality fo games I do not suscribe to. Here is what I am saying
in the 1990's gaming was still very much a 'geek' thing.
in the 2000's games are more mainstream and everyone plays them.
So, the demographics of who purchases games in the 90's is different than from the 00's given my statement above.
retarded people have aways existed in mass, its just the games are now starting to work itself into the retarded market more than before.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
The difference was, back in the day, you didnt have access to many games. I can remember when I first got into RPGs in the late 80s, there were only a handful of RPGs available. Since there were so few, I played games that I didnt even think that highly of, because frankly, there werent anymore.
Again it ties back into having access to whatever you want. You have the option of being picky today, back in the day? Not so much
Eh? The only "obvious" thing is that discussing the past/present of MMORPGs (while ignoring half of the truth -- the bad half) would be a waste of everyone's time.
Nostalgia is a half-truth; a diarrhea of positives. It doesn't make for useful conversation.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I dont think that its not so much that we ignroe the bad half. At the time MMOs were mind blowing, I had nothing to compare it to in terms of being able to tell if it was good or bad. Its like sex, it may have been terrible your first time, but that first time is always the most memorable.
I wouldn't say that older games were necessarily better, but I would say that they exceeded my expectations more than newer games. That might just be because my expectations are higher these days and I'm less tolerant of game mechanics that are broken or lacking.
I've noticed that you do some creative writing, I'm asking for less creativity and more critical reflection. Anecdotal evidence is not a strenght as such.
That aside, I will have to dissapoint you, I'm not planing emigration to the United States.
At the time, Pong was mind-blowing because there was nothing to compare it to. 30 years later though, it's just not that impressive. The first generation of anything is great because nobody understands what makes it great, just that it's new and ought to be great. But as time goes on and people get more experience, people realize that, except for the nostalgia factor, the first generation is rarely ever anything to be all that excited about.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Someone said it a while ago about the C&C games.
The older games like C&C, Red Alert, Tiberian Sun etc. Compared to the newer ones i wholeheartedly agree that theyre alot better.
Dune 2. A really old rts with tanks and sandworms.. I still remember.
I still sometimes play Civilization 2.
I looked at the new Civilization 5 at gametrailers.com. Iam not impressed.
I dont think ill even try it. Maybe iam old, maybe i just like the old Civilization 2.
Zelda on gameboy. Its simple, fun and sometimes you have to solve puzzles.
Since i still remember, it must be better than the shitloads of games ive forgotten.
I played Fallout alot. Its still a great rpg. I think in many ways its better than Fallout 3.
Before Balldurs Gate: Shadows Of Amn were released, i had read a 4 page preview of the game in PC Gamer UK. That game game me everything i wanted and lots more.
Iam sure i havent done everything in that game yet.. and i never played through the expansion.
I dont even know what game to compare it to, its still the best rpg ive ever played.
One of the more recent games i played were Mass Effect. Even tho theres alot of things i dont like about it, i still enjoyed it.
In comparison, Mass Effect 2 i played for less than 30min.
If newer games are better than old ones depends on the quality of the game and the concept.
Looking back at my gamer history i can say one thing. If you take an old game and "remake" it, youll most likely dissapoint alot of people.
Its the same in games, movies and a bunch of other stuff. Peoples perception of that thing is allready formed.
If you make a movie and it becomes a success. Then you decide to make a sequel with a different director and different actors, it most likely becomes shit.
We "old" gamers have come to expect certain things, or we have formed oppinions about how we like to play.
Another thing thats getting verry annoying about the world is the business mentality.
If the sole goal of making a product is to make money, then it will become shit.
The only reason it is like this is because people buy complete crap apparently without thinking about it.
A mate of mine complained about this erlier today. He were really pissed off becouse one tv channel have bought the rights for all the soccer games. In effect it means that nobody can watch soccer without paying shitloads of money. And the worst part about it is that they WILL.
In games context i think its the same.
People get fucked over and its like "Heres my $50, thank you!".
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/261448/page/5
"I'd just like to see more games that focus on the world, and giving the people in it more of a role, im tired of these constant single player games that you can walk around with millions of people."
- Parsalin
Actually you havent disappointed me. Youve made me esctatic for admitting you are talking about education in a country you dont live in and a system therein you know nothing about. That explains a lot about this coversation.
If you had spesified that you were talking about american youth (you didn't) you'd still have a weak case. I'm simply claiming that you can't prove your claims, that doesn't require me to know anything more than basic philosophy of science (so far).
Didn't think it'd be that easy did you? ;-)