I feel they should be upfront about what stage their game is in, at least then it doesn't give players ammunition against them. Think MO.. At least in their case they're not smoke screening any issue they are having or what state their game is in.
Xsyon has no NDA so there not really trowing up a smoke screen or anything. I do however not know why they decided not to call it an closed beta (people who whine about it being "paid" are just being cheep. I hate those closed beta's that first let in some random folks, folks who won a ticket in and after that the people who actually did pay ). I think they slightly overestimated themselves and hoped to had everything ready (bar tweaking) before letting people in. dunno
Complaining about "paid" beta has nothing to do with being cheap. It's a matter of principle. One shouldn't have to pay to be in beta. Beta is both a privilege and a responsibility. You get to play a game, sometimes in it's worse state, for free and in advance in exchange for providing valuable feedback and testing. The real problem with betas, in general, is that good beta testers are few and far between. Nevertheless, the developers can still extrapolate data from those less productive testers.
Irrespective of that, "paid" beta tends to bring up other problems, like players preordering, but then doing charge backs, either fraudulently (because they never had any intention of paying in the first place) or because they feel (legitimately, or not) that they were somehow cheated. This can cause the the developer and/or publisher hardship, as well as generate negative publicity. Mortal Online seems to be a recent example of this phenomenon.
Closed beta should be closed with an NDA, but involve members of the general gaming public. Players from the general public should apply to be a tester, not have to pay for the privilege. Granted, this Xsyon is somewhat of an unusual case - "paid" beta generally refers to open betas, whereas Xsyon seems to be in a closed, albeit without an NDA, beta state.
Originally posted by rhinok The real problem with betas, in general, is that good beta testers are few and far between.
I agree, this is exacly the problem that arises when the general public is allowed in to beta test a game. Those that pre-order have shown their commitment to the game and from what I have observed in Xyson are commited testers. They have put their money where their mouth is.
Still, taking pre-orders are only acceptable if the game is content complete from internal development which only has to be rolled out to the pre-order people for a month or two of final testing.
I feel they should be upfront about what stage their game is in, at least then it doesn't give players ammunition against them. Think MO.. At least in their case they're not smoke screening any issue they are having or what state their game is in.
Xsyon has no NDA so there not really trowing up a smoke screen or anything. I do however not know why they decided not to call it an closed beta (people who whine about it being "paid" are just being cheep. I hate those closed beta's that first let in some random folks, folks who won a ticket in and after that the people who actually did pay ). I think they slightly overestimated themselves and hoped to had everything ready (bar tweaking) before letting people in. dunno
I Malickie was referring more to the overall knowledge of development status. We do get feedback from those people who have access. However, we don't know the status of anything outside of that. How much internal testing of the AI has been done? If I understand his posts correctly, Virtus (an admin for xsyon) had not seen any of the AI as of mid-March. AI is one of the aspects of the game that can require ALOT of testing and tweaking. If it has had only minimal testing so far, what is the current status and can it realistically be expected to be ready for a mid-May release?
I believe sandbox MMORPG's aren't popular, becuase a high quality fun sandbox MMORPG hasn't been made yet.
Sandbox games, on the other hand, are just not that well made.
I've probably been in as many mmorpg games as you have. Just cutting through the nonsense, to even make mention the a high quality fun sandboxy game hasn't been made yet is false. EVE is that game, over 300k subscribers, growing, and accumulated rewards. .and that subscribership being greater than many AAA development studios with a greater budget.
Just because Shadowbane, PotBS, Wurm, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Ryzom, Mortal Online and other sandboxy games are not popular, does not mean the category of games (Sandboxy) are not that well made, but means those development studios didnt develop a well-made game to attract more subscribers or sustain more than EVE/CCP. Not SOE with Vanguard, not DDO with Turbine, not Cryptic with Champions/STO, not Funcom with AoC, not Mythic with WAR.
So, to suggest that sandboxy games as opposed to non-sandoxy games are not that well made, or that indie studios as opposed to non-indie studios lack bandwidth and experience to produce a successful game, well, history disagrees with you.
So, even though you mentioned EVE, you must mention it as what it is; a independent studio sandboxy game that is popular and successful.
Xsyon isn't heading down any path akin to popularity, nor does it have the developmental Chutzpah to do so, based on what I've been reading up on. I'd like to be proven wrong.
With a target population of 5000 (500 at release, ramping up to 5000 over 6 months), I don't think Xsyon is aiming for popularity.
One problem that "sandbox" games run into, is the fact sandbox elements are much more difficult to balance. Sandbox housing means the ability to build a house anywhere, as long as you have the resources. This runs into several problems. First, placing houses in such a way as to block people's access to their own house, close the entrances to dungeons, etc. Second, the tendency will be towards disorganized suburban sprawl in which every bit of free ground has a house. Third, trying to solve this urban sprawl problem means either some players just will never be able to have houses (either because of expense or lack of free land) or spreading your player population over larger areas (decreasing player interaction). The same type of thing applies to open PVP and other sandbox elements.
I believe sandbox MMORPG's aren't popular, becuase a high quality fun sandbox MMORPG hasn't been made yet.
Sandbox games, on the other hand, are just not that well made.
I've probably been in as many mmorpg games as you have. Just cutting through the nonsense, to even make mention the a high quality fun sandboxy game hasn't been made yet is false. EVE is that game, over 300k subscribers, growing, and accumulated rewards. .and that subscribership being greater than many AAA development studios with a greater budget.
Just because Shadowbane, PotBS, Wurm, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Ryzom, Mortal Online and other sandboxy games are not popular, does not mean the category of games (Sandboxy) are not that well made, but means those development studios didnt develop a well-made game to attract more subscribers or sustain more than EVE/CCP. Not SOE with Vanguard, not DDO with Turbine, not Cryptic with Champions/STO, not Funcom with AoC, not Mythic with WAR.
So, to suggest that sandboxy games as opposed to non-sandoxy games are not that well made, or that indie studios as opposed to non-indie studios lack bandwidth and experience to produce a successful game, well, history disagrees with you.
So, even though you mentioned EVE, you must mention it as what it is; a independent studio sandboxy game that is popular and successful.
Xsyon isn't heading down any path akin to popularity, nor does it have the developmental Chutzpah to do so, based on what I've been reading up on. I'd like to be proven wrong.
With a target population of 5000 (500 at release, ramping up to 5000 over 6 months), I don't think Xsyon is aiming for popularity.
One problem that "sandbox" games run into, is the fact sandbox elements are much more difficult to balance. Sandbox housing means the ability to build a house anywhere, as long as you have the resources. This runs into several problems. First, placing houses in such a way as to block people's access to their own house, close the entrances to dungeons, etc. Second, the tendency will be towards disorganized suburban sprawl in which every bit of free ground has a house. Third, trying to solve this urban sprawl problem means either some players just will never be able to have houses (either because of expense or lack of free land) or spreading your player population over larger areas (decreasing player interaction). The same type of thing applies to open PVP and other sandbox elements.
What? Sandbox does not mean being able to build a house anywhere. That is a "sandboxy" element, but it is neither sufficient nor necessary for a sandbox game.
That was meant as an example of one sandbox element. Discussion of all the elements that go into being a sandbox (and how to properly balance them) would go for several pages and totally derail this thread. Simply put, the more open-ended you make a game, the harder it is to balance. If you want to discuss the nature of sandbox vs. themepark at length, start a new thread or find an appropriate thread in the general discussion forum.
Basically, it's hard to make rules that guide players, but don't impose restrictions.
I believe sandbox MMORPG's aren't popular, becuase a high quality fun sandbox MMORPG hasn't been made yet.
Sandbox games, on the other hand, are just not that well made.
I've probably been in as many mmorpg games as you have. Just cutting through the nonsense, to even make mention the a high quality fun sandboxy game hasn't been made yet is false. EVE is that game, over 300k subscribers, growing, and accumulated rewards. .and that subscribership being greater than many AAA development studios with a greater budget.
Just because Shadowbane, PotBS, Wurm, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Ryzom, Mortal Online and other sandboxy games are not popular, does not mean the category of games (Sandboxy) are not that well made, but means those development studios didnt develop a well-made game to attract more subscribers or sustain more than EVE/CCP. Not SOE with Vanguard, not DDO with Turbine, not Cryptic with Champions/STO, not Funcom with AoC, not Mythic with WAR.
So, to suggest that sandboxy games as opposed to non-sandoxy games are not that well made, or that indie studios as opposed to non-indie studios lack bandwidth and experience to produce a successful game, well, history disagrees with you.
So, even though you mentioned EVE, you must mention it as what it is; a independent studio sandboxy game that is popular and successful.
Xsyon isn't heading down any path akin to popularity, nor does it have the developmental Chutzpah to do so, based on what I've been reading up on. I'd like to be proven wrong.
With a target population of 5000 (500 at release, ramping up to 5000 over 6 months), I don't think Xsyon is aiming for popularity.
One problem that "sandbox" games run into, is the fact sandbox elements are much more difficult to balance. Sandbox housing means the ability to build a house anywhere, as long as you have the resources. This runs into several problems. First, placing houses in such a way as to block people's access to their own house, close the entrances to dungeons, etc. Second, the tendency will be towards disorganized suburban sprawl in which every bit of free ground has a house. Third, trying to solve this urban sprawl problem means either some players just will never be able to have houses (either because of expense or lack of free land) or spreading your player population over larger areas (decreasing player interaction). The same type of thing applies to open PVP and other sandbox elements.
And there ya have it. Your not disagreeing with me, but brought to light something I had forgotten. Xsyon is not aiming for popularity, but to cater to a very small community size. Perhaps a size that might be very very challenging for them to sustain; 5000.
I do not think that where sandboxy games have gotten into trouble is just lack of balance, but a combination of elements such as sandboxy content, fluidity of game-play, a quality engine and graphics, and breadth/depth of game-play. EVE shines through those challenges, though.
One other looming question for me is, now that I'm reminded of the 5000 target audience; how can a supposed quality game with continuously planned content only cater to 5000 subscribers and maintain a full staff? $40 for the client @ 5000 = $200,000. $15/month @ 5000 = $900,000/year. They have 12 primary folks listed on their site as contributors in some capacity, and an additional 7 listed as "additional developers".
It just seems as though either someone isn't getting paid, or their praying that they sustain 5000 subscribers and go for the superlong-term plan, or this is just a hobby game for a bunch of moonlighters. I'm being facetious, but still wonder about it.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
"They have 12 primary folks listed on their site as contributors in some capacity, and an additional 7 listed as "additional developers"
Well their costs may be less then you think. I mean just how much does a Russian living in Siberia make a year in salary? That is where the vast majority of the programmers are at if I remember correctly.
They may also have been contract labor that only get paid one time to write the game and then don't maintain the game after it launches.
If you could manage to maintain with a smallish staff of less then 10 you could make a small profit, though you would have to probaby give up little things like; Bug fixes, new content, Customer support, etc....you know all the things that make a game "carebear" that the true hardcore niche players don't need or want.
I believe sandbox MMORPG's aren't popular, becuase a high quality fun sandbox MMORPG hasn't been made yet.
Sandbox games, on the other hand, are just not that well made.
I've probably been in as many mmorpg games as you have. Just cutting through the nonsense, to even make mention the a high quality fun sandboxy game hasn't been made yet is false. EVE is that game, over 300k subscribers, growing, and accumulated rewards. .and that subscribership being greater than many AAA development studios with a greater budget.
Just because Shadowbane, PotBS, Wurm, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Ryzom, Mortal Online and other sandboxy games are not popular, does not mean the category of games (Sandboxy) are not that well made, but means those development studios didnt develop a well-made game to attract more subscribers or sustain more than EVE/CCP. Not SOE with Vanguard, not DDO with Turbine, not Cryptic with Champions/STO, not Funcom with AoC, not Mythic with WAR.
So, to suggest that sandboxy games as opposed to non-sandoxy games are not that well made, or that indie studios as opposed to non-indie studios lack bandwidth and experience to produce a successful game, well, history disagrees with you.
So, even though you mentioned EVE, you must mention it as what it is; a independent studio sandboxy game that is popular and successful.
Xsyon isn't heading down any path akin to popularity, nor does it have the developmental Chutzpah to do so, based on what I've been reading up on. I'd like to be proven wrong.
With a target population of 5000 (500 at release, ramping up to 5000 over 6 months), I don't think Xsyon is aiming for popularity.
One problem that "sandbox" games run into, is the fact sandbox elements are much more difficult to balance. Sandbox housing means the ability to build a house anywhere, as long as you have the resources. This runs into several problems. First, placing houses in such a way as to block people's access to their own house, close the entrances to dungeons, etc. Second, the tendency will be towards disorganized suburban sprawl in which every bit of free ground has a house. Third, trying to solve this urban sprawl problem means either some players just will never be able to have houses (either because of expense or lack of free land) or spreading your player population over larger areas (decreasing player interaction). The same type of thing applies to open PVP and other sandbox elements.
its actully 2500 i heard at least on the pre release side
its actully 2500 i heard at least on the pre release side
Incorrect.
It is 5000 they are planning for near mid-to-end summer.
If you have any source for that 2500, I'd be glad to review it; The only mention of 2500 is the number of forum accounts created, which is actually 2145.
Comments
Complaining about "paid" beta has nothing to do with being cheap. It's a matter of principle. One shouldn't have to pay to be in beta. Beta is both a privilege and a responsibility. You get to play a game, sometimes in it's worse state, for free and in advance in exchange for providing valuable feedback and testing. The real problem with betas, in general, is that good beta testers are few and far between. Nevertheless, the developers can still extrapolate data from those less productive testers.
Irrespective of that, "paid" beta tends to bring up other problems, like players preordering, but then doing charge backs, either fraudulently (because they never had any intention of paying in the first place) or because they feel (legitimately, or not) that they were somehow cheated. This can cause the the developer and/or publisher hardship, as well as generate negative publicity. Mortal Online seems to be a recent example of this phenomenon.
Closed beta should be closed with an NDA, but involve members of the general gaming public. Players from the general public should apply to be a tester, not have to pay for the privilege. Granted, this Xsyon is somewhat of an unusual case - "paid" beta generally refers to open betas, whereas Xsyon seems to be in a closed, albeit without an NDA, beta state.
~Ripper
I agree, this is exacly the problem that arises when the general public is allowed in to beta test a game. Those that pre-order have shown their commitment to the game and from what I have observed in Xyson are commited testers. They have put their money where their mouth is.
Still, taking pre-orders are only acceptable if the game is content complete from internal development which only has to be rolled out to the pre-order people for a month or two of final testing.
I Malickie was referring more to the overall knowledge of development status. We do get feedback from those people who have access. However, we don't know the status of anything outside of that. How much internal testing of the AI has been done? If I understand his posts correctly, Virtus (an admin for xsyon) had not seen any of the AI as of mid-March. AI is one of the aspects of the game that can require ALOT of testing and tweaking. If it has had only minimal testing so far, what is the current status and can it realistically be expected to be ready for a mid-May release?
interesting reply
how about you learn to think
....by any other name
With a target population of 5000 (500 at release, ramping up to 5000 over 6 months), I don't think Xsyon is aiming for popularity.
One problem that "sandbox" games run into, is the fact sandbox elements are much more difficult to balance. Sandbox housing means the ability to build a house anywhere, as long as you have the resources. This runs into several problems. First, placing houses in such a way as to block people's access to their own house, close the entrances to dungeons, etc. Second, the tendency will be towards disorganized suburban sprawl in which every bit of free ground has a house. Third, trying to solve this urban sprawl problem means either some players just will never be able to have houses (either because of expense or lack of free land) or spreading your player population over larger areas (decreasing player interaction). The same type of thing applies to open PVP and other sandbox elements.
What? Sandbox does not mean being able to build a house anywhere. That is a "sandboxy" element, but it is neither sufficient nor necessary for a sandbox game.
@harabeck:
That was meant as an example of one sandbox element. Discussion of all the elements that go into being a sandbox (and how to properly balance them) would go for several pages and totally derail this thread. Simply put, the more open-ended you make a game, the harder it is to balance. If you want to discuss the nature of sandbox vs. themepark at length, start a new thread or find an appropriate thread in the general discussion forum.
Basically, it's hard to make rules that guide players, but don't impose restrictions.
And there ya have it. Your not disagreeing with me, but brought to light something I had forgotten. Xsyon is not aiming for popularity, but to cater to a very small community size. Perhaps a size that might be very very challenging for them to sustain; 5000.
I do not think that where sandboxy games have gotten into trouble is just lack of balance, but a combination of elements such as sandboxy content, fluidity of game-play, a quality engine and graphics, and breadth/depth of game-play. EVE shines through those challenges, though.
One other looming question for me is, now that I'm reminded of the 5000 target audience; how can a supposed quality game with continuously planned content only cater to 5000 subscribers and maintain a full staff? $40 for the client @ 5000 = $200,000. $15/month @ 5000 = $900,000/year. They have 12 primary folks listed on their site as contributors in some capacity, and an additional 7 listed as "additional developers".
It just seems as though either someone isn't getting paid, or their praying that they sustain 5000 subscribers and go for the superlong-term plan, or this is just a hobby game for a bunch of moonlighters. I'm being facetious, but still wonder about it.
Striving for Silver Stars since Gold is so effeminate.
"They have 12 primary folks listed on their site as contributors in some capacity, and an additional 7 listed as "additional developers"
Well their costs may be less then you think. I mean just how much does a Russian living in Siberia make a year in salary? That is where the vast majority of the programmers are at if I remember correctly.
They may also have been contract labor that only get paid one time to write the game and then don't maintain the game after it launches.
If you could manage to maintain with a smallish staff of less then 10 you could make a small profit, though you would have to probaby give up little things like; Bug fixes, new content, Customer support, etc....you know all the things that make a game "carebear" that the true hardcore niche players don't need or want.
More on topic - how many more people have been let in? Does anyone know?
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
If I had to guess, I'd say around 40-50 players are in currently.
There have been 3 waves let in of varying size. The first was roughly 20-30 people, I believe.
Again, these are guesstimates based off my IRC and forum lurking.
its actully 2500 i heard at least on the pre release side
Incorrect.
It is 5000 they are planning for near mid-to-end summer.
If you have any source for that 2500, I'd be glad to review it; The only mention of 2500 is the number of forum accounts created, which is actually 2145.
My source: http://www.xsyon.com/forums/5-announcements/5958-from-the-developers
I hope they hit their 5000.