You don't hate us fair enough - That's called an exaggeration, to create a point. If you truly did hate people for playing games of opposing business models, then I would be drawing connections with Nazies.
Pots, is always in the game - you may find them as random drops, or buy them as needed in the numbers which you can afford. If you buy them from a store, it's time saving only. I do not PvP as I've never found any enjoyment in it - whenever you win, you get called a hacker and whenever you loose the opponent is gloating and whoever lost with you is calling the opponent a hacker. Not something I voluntarily put myself into. Thereby, I have never had any need of any item instantly replenishing my health at a certain point – seeing as how I don't think it's my place to comment upon the things I have not personally experienced, I did not include that in my previous post. They are available in some games, yes. (by far not every) And I am now truly sorry for not including every damn item in every damn game to create a point. I shall remember to do so next time, for your convenience.
So you are experiencing 100% of the content on an equal level, standing shoulder-to-shoulder with those using the item shop, on a 1-to-1 basis, thus rendering use of the item shop at all superflous? I highly doubt that.
Reason is, it goes against, oh, 100% of the feedback I've gotten from players in the number of F2P MMOs I've tried out when I asked them how important the item shops are to fully experience the given MMO... but I suppose I have to take your word for it as I can't definitively prove otherwise, now can I? That whole "plausible deniability" thing. And I went into the games genuinely interested in playing them for the long term... but was ultimately turned away by what I learned.
They stated, unequivocally, that to play at the level where you are experiencing the entire game, you will need to use the item shop... because that's how the game is set up, deliberately. And some of those people would admit that even in the context of using the item shop, they were *still* gimped compared to other players.
As for you not PvP'ing... Fine. You don't, so that aspect of it doesn't apply to you personally. But many, many others do and find it necessary to use charms and pots from the shops in order to remain competitive at the higher levels. The point stands - you need to use the item shop if you want to be competitive.
And I don't tend to give up a good game until I'm in the late mid- early high levels, so I'd say I've been there quite a few times. I don't tend to buy stuff from item shops. Because unlike you: I don't HAVE TO SPEND MONEY (excuse the caps but I thought the point needed to be made).
I don't know where you get that line from, as I don't "HAVE TO SPEND MONEY" either... I don't play the games anymore in the first place. I also don't delude myself that I would never have to, either, if I chose to play the games with the intention of playing them to the same degree I play a P2P MMO. Thus, why P2P is the better deal. I know that, in a P2P, no matter how much or how little I choose to do, it's all available for the same flat fee, every month, like clock-work.
If I want to get to the endgame contents without paying, I will get there. There is no MMORPG I have played so far, I could not get to the point I was at, without having paid.
Ahh... You *will* get there.... That would seem to imply you're not there yet, no?
Again, when you are standing shoulder-to-shoulder, playing on a 1-to-1 basis and able to keep pace with those who do use the item shop, without spending a dime yourself... then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're only proving my point. You cannot perform at an equal level with people who use the item shop, for any extended amount of time, without using it yourself. You either have to grind for hours to get what you need, or you need to pull out the wallet. That is not a level playing field.
That is especially relevant in the case of PvP which, even though you don't PvP... many others do; and I'm discussing the concept of F2P/Item Malls in general, not based on any one person's preferences.
The difference? In a P2P MMO, I can keep pace with anyone else in the game if I wish by simply playing... I have no more or no less to do than anyone else to do or get what I want, nor any more or any less to spend - in time or money - to do so. Again... in a P2P MMO, it's a level playing field.... for everyone.
To take a prime example: Perfect World - If you did not want to spend money on the elite items in the cash-shop, pay with in-game money. (someone, somewhere did indeed have to pay for your item, but decided to either sell their Item Shop currency to you, or the item which they bought with said Item Shop currency) Of course, the most epic gear came from dungeons and rare drops. Play an F2P game, and grind. You'll suddenly see, that there isn't all that much a difference from WoW, except that quests are less frequent, and you can (can) get an easier experience. But... it never struck any of you to try, did it? You just heard "you can buy such and such" and decided this game makes you pay for gear so you don't want to play it.
I've played a number of F2P, and have had discussions with people who have been playing at the high level, doing the content I would want to do, at the level I would want to experience it at. Without exception, they all stated that to do so, with any degree of consistency, would require using the item shop... and this was coming from people who were even gimped by other players' standards.. They were paying just to be able to play in the same ballpark.
Oh... and the grind in a game like Perfect World is FAR worse than it would ever be in a game like WoW. Horrible comparison. PW is one of the ones I tried and left because of the ridiculous cash shop items they use, and because - aside from great character customization and some nice world design - their item shop was ridiculous. I mean, just as one example, a megaphone to use a chat channel... in a social game... with each one consumed on use? No thanks.
And no, the stores does not offer a sole awesomesauce helmet (that was a reference to an earlier post, which referred to a helmet of superior quality) Most often, they offer one helmet per class... and then a following suit of armor... Perhaps they will have lower quality gear, with lower level requirements, for lower costs even... If they sell gear directly in the item shop (IT IS NOT A GIVEN THAT THEY DO(excuse the caps, but I thought I should point that out as well))
You used the comparison... so I ran with it because, frankly, it works just as well as any other example you could use in the context of a MMO with an item shop. The point was to convey the idea behind item shops.. not any one specific item.
And I'm sorry if you expected the F2P part of this genre to be charity causes, but it's kinda the big logical conclusion to arrive upon: You need to earn money. When you pay for something, it's because somewhere down the line, someone needs money to do something. Most often, you pay much more than you need, because someone wants more than everyone else. If anyone sincerely thought something differently, they would be naive beyond comprehension.
/facepalm No... I don't expect them to be charities... that was kind of the point of my comments... That the developers aren't developing the games as a charity. They *expect* to make money on them and, thus, did not design the game for those who would never pay a dime in mind.
YES: you CAN spend MORE in a F2P game than in a subscription model. You CAN also spend LESS, and PLAY MORE. If you buy one set of gear for PvP and one automatic healthreplenisher for 400K HP (that's the highest I've spotted so far) for a grand total of 15$ (costing more than that, would require connections to be made to GPotato and their Allods messup) And you happen to play for two months without making another purchase (you were real good in PvP and didn't loose that much HP those two months - or you got lucky and a friend quit giving you access to his stocked up bank character filled with such automatic healthreplenishment or whichever reason you like for not spending more money because this did not happen and does not necessarily need to be a true estimate therefore do not pick upon exactness of it, but the point which it makes(yes, it does seem you are more content with taking apart the examples rather than the points they make)) You have now paid half the amount than a normal subscription model. One month, you might spend 100 dollars, yes... the next year, you might spend less than 5... Say an average of 2.5... so, for a year long subscription to WoW is what... 180$? So then, lets say that some months you spent a bit more than the average of 2.5 and no months did you spend less than 2.5 USD... You spent during that year a total of 140$
First of all... Punctuation and paragraphs, please. That block of text is very difficult to get through - not picking on you... just saying.
So wait... You're using someone paying $100 in one month, but only spending $5 in the next *year* as a serious example? Really? And that's realistic to you?
I *highly* doubt that someone who would find it necessary to spend $100 in a single month is going to be playing as much, at the same level of "intensity" for an entire year and spend only $5... for that *entire year*. I mean, if you're going to try to present hypotheticals, at least keep them realistic.
You're using a friend quitting and giving you all his stuff - another hypothetical - as an actual argument? Really?
Sorry... but unless your actual point was lost somewhere in all that.... you are making absolutely no point in favor for F2P.
If you can find me a person that HAS TO SPEND 100$ a month to be able to do everything all the players of subscription models can, then I will tell you that he found a really crappy game - either that or this person has a compulsive disorder.
Ahhh... and here we are passing judgment on people as an argument.
Fact is.. there are people who do spend that much... and more... your personal judgment of them notwithstanding.
The point remains, if someone has to spend $100 a month, or even $50 or $40 to be able to do everythingn, then they really should be playing a P2P MMO... where one month of item shop purchases would afford them at least 2 months of subscriptions in which they can do anything they want, as much as they want, without spending another cent more. Which is kinda my point.
Yes, you might need to spend 100$ of a grand total to get everything, but eventually, you will have spent equally much on WoW, correct? In the end... the only real difference between a F2P game and a P2P game, is the fact that you can buy some items to make it an easier experience - whereas WoW cannot create an experience that is not easy, because they have nothing to offer to make it easier. And when everyone is spending money, they expect to get a turnout . And when everyone expects turnout, it better be dang easy because face it... some people just plain suck.
No... you wouldn't have spent the same amount as you would in WoW. Because you don't spend $100 and that's it. Consumables are consumed and need to be replenished...
Aw hell your entire argument there is just ridiculous.
I mean, you're trying to say that spending $100 in a single month on individual items is equivalent to spending it for 6 months of a subscription where access to everything is included.... I mean... seriously.
And yes, YES! YOUR PERSONAL CRUSADE! Aihoshi (PS: Sorry for misspelling that in the previous post) has all relevant points. I am not certain what this genre is called in English, but where I'm from at the very least, we have a genre which incorporates this type of writing - a text, written about a subject, from your point of view (I know it's hard, but do try to realize other people have opinions as well, that may be more correct than your own) which may also employ sarcasm, superiority, humor, you get the picture? And besides, if he were to write it from your point of view, he wouldn't be doing his job proper, would he? You know... writing about the F2P part of the market...
And you are still deliberately missing the point here. Or maybe seriously missing it. That's unfortunate. I'm not going to repeat the entire thing again, beyond noting that the guy posted an entire article pondering why some people don't like F2P and pulling this ridiculous spin-job of connecting it with "not accepting innovation".... in light of the fact that people have noted, time and again, exactly *why* they don't like the F2P model.
In short, he's full of crap.
As for validating his points: Fantasy Earth Online incorporates RTS elements in it's PvP. Tales of Fantasy incorporates Mounted Combat, Battles of the Immortals has their ever changing Soul Gear, Perfect World has full fledged air combat... There's innovation all over the F2P market, if you'd bother to look. No, they aren't all in the SAME GAME, but can you find me a game, single player or not, which incorporates only revolutionary concepts and nothing which conforms with the norm?
Innovation in the F2P market, maybe... but each of those elements has already existed in other MMOs before. They're not innovating... they're imitating. Nothing wrong with that - every developer does it to some degree.. but let's be honest and acknowledge it for what it is, yeah?
Also... would like to see Aioshi come in here and support his statements. I don't think he needs fans arguing his points for him... or maybe he does.
PPS: Thought I'd add the new an elaborated question in honor of WSIMike: What is the problem? As far as I've seen utterly few has items which are more than a one time fee, and you still have to pay no matter which game you choose, so why bother to refuse playing one game while continuing playing another which just places a deadline upon your payment?
..... this from the person who just got finished talking about people giving the same answers. Maybe if you stopped asking the same questions or raising the same points.... we would stop giving the same answers.. Seems logical, right?
PPPS: COULD PEOPLE STOP JUDING A GAME SIMPLY FROM THE FACT THAT IT'S F2P/P2P?! The game, is irrelevant to it's payment model. If you had to pay 60 bucks over twelve months or sixty bucks up front for your favorite game, would it matter to you?!
That you even ask a question like that proves, undeniably, that you don't get it at all. That's okay... I'm sure Aioshi loves you for it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Firstly, for those who reared their heads and barked, you kind of just proved some of his over-time points about some P2Pers. Fairly sure most of us who aren't as closed minded know which. That wasn't an attack, mind you. Just pointing out the obvious, which isn't always obvious to some.
Secondly, I'd like to add this: Running a server isn't free, and Dev's do need to be paid to live. Dev'ing and working a full-time job is just harsh, as Dev'ing IS a full-time job, something many seem to forget. F2P games are a great way to let people have their fun, yet still keep the servers online, the rent paid (depending on whether or not you're renting an office), and the Dev's fed/clean/sheltered/etc. Cash shops are really the best way to do it without barring players from a vast majority of a game. Agreed, many cash shops out there are cheese in a can (just pay to open for your slice), but some aren't that bad.
Take Lunia for example. Most of the items I remember from their cash shop were fluff items which altered a piece of equipment to give it a new image, like the old Fish Sword or Cat Hat. Granted, these only lasted for 30 days before disappearing, but when your playerbase is low and expected to stay low, Dev's need to do what they can to remain fed.
The difference between subs and cash shops is that one can spend more in a cash shop than on a sub quite easily. But in some cases that isn't the Dev's faults. Sure, it's their faults when you have to invest in their cash shop to get ahead (For example, RoM's item strengthening and a few of their other CS items), but in some cases, it really is about the consumer and their want for shineys. Actually, it's a smart Dev who puts shiney items in the cash shop without causing the whole "You have to pay to get ahead!" argument. People like shiney items. If you had the chance to turn your bow and arrows in to a (image and animation only) chaingun, or a bow of light that shoots fireballs, just to have your character look awesome (and likely heroic), would you buy it? I know many who would, and do buy that sort of thing.
People tend to look at Cash Shops and scream "MONEY WHORES!" when in some cases, it isn't really true. Sure the Dev's of those few games want your money, but hey, they've got to live too you know. It's not a volunteer job where they make games for the world to play, absolutely for free. And as far as I know, most of the F2P games out there don't force you to spend money at the cash shop. It's the players who force themselves to pay or, in their minds, fail.
Food for thought.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
1: Richard's column is about F2P games. Please re-read that enough times until it sticks. The posts calling for him to talk about other things is just silly. If the topic makes you mad enough that the comments are implying why even read his column? You know whats coming.
2: The responses here really proves his points that he keeps bringing up. As soon as F2P is mentioned some not only stop looking at a game but get rabbid and violent. You guys cant even stand to look at ads for games you will never play and that is somehow hurting you?
1: Richard's column is about F2P games. Please re-read that enough times until it sticks. The posts calling for him to talk about other things is just silly. If the topic makes you mad enough that the comments are implying why even read his column? You know whats coming.
2: The responses here really proves his points that he keeps bringing up. As soon as F2P is mentioned some not only stop looking at a game but get rabbid and violent. You guys cant even stand to look at ads for games you will never play and that is somehow hurting you?
1. His column is not just about F2P games, it is about his opinion on people who avoid F2P games. As such, I decided to read it because I fall under that camp. That said, his column bothers me because he is being completely unprofessional by bashing a group of people for having their own valid opinion. He makes claims about those who avoid F2P games as being irrational, stubburn, and close minded. All of this, despite the fact that many people who dislike F2P games have stated again and again, very valid reasons why they dislike such a payment model, and why they dislike and avoid such games.
2. Actually, all that the responses have proven, is just how inflamatory his articles are becoming. He keeps claiming that there is irrational hate and bashing coming from non-F2P gamers against F2P gamers and players of F2P games. The only reason there are non-F2P gamers posting in an upset manner in his articles is because he is making inflamatory comments based on his personal opinion on those who avoid F2P games, that are made in the same vein of ignorance he's claiming those who choose not to play F2P games are. He is baiting people to come to his article and argue back. Why? Who knows, maybe he thinks it will prove his point about "irrational hate against F2P". In reality, it's dislike of his irrational claims that is prompting angry posts, not general dislike for F2P games.
Aihoshi's column is highly opinionated, inflamatory, and does nothing to actually contribute positively to the community's discussion concerning F2P MMOs. Columnists on MMORPG.com are columnists because of their professional experience on subject matter, and what they write is supposed to be for their professional views on the subject matter. Aihoshi's columns have become increasingly unprofessional by his constant inflamatory statements and accusations concerning gamers who prefer to steer clear of games with the P2P payment model.
Why should Aihoshi even have a column if the content is no more constructive than what a random forum troll would post?
Originally posted by Rhianni32 1: Richard's column is about F2P games. Please re-read that enough times until it sticks. The posts calling for him to talk about other things is just silly. If the topic makes you mad enough that the comments are implying why even read his column? You know whats coming.
I read Richard's column so I can come here and explain how he is misguided or just wrong in his statements. Why do I want to do that? Because if we don't and readers of this site view his articles and accept them as the truth with no counter argument, people might start to believe everything he has to say about F2P. He never has a bad word to say about F2P games, and that's a lie by omission, IMO. He never examines the problem of F2P games becoming elitist clubs with the "high class" gamers who can spend a lot of money versus the "low class" players who are stuck with weaker gear because they can't afford to spend a lot. He never writes about the challenges of a maintaining a decent game economy when it can shift dramatically depending on how much players are spending on items. He doesn't discuss how most F2P games are from Asian markets are are often poorly translated into English and other languages. He doesn't mention how grindy those games usually are. For whatever reason, his agenda is to promote F2P as the Best Thing Ever and never examine anything negative. He's the ultimate F2P fanboy. I think it's bad for MMORPGs to let those opinions about F2P go unchallenged.
2: The responses here really proves his points that he keeps bringing up. As soon as F2P is mentioned some not only stop looking at a game but get rabbid and violent. You guys cant even stand to look at ads for games you will never play and that is somehow hurting you?
"Rabid and violent" is an exaggeration, but definitely opinions are strong because many of us see that as F2P and item shops become more popular for MMORPGs (and even all games in general), it drastically reduces the quality of the gaming experience (at least for us). The satisfaction of achieving something great in those games is totally removed when the player next to you receives the exact same reward (or more likely a much better reward) by simply pulling out his credit card. That is extremely infuriating to anyone who knows what it's like to accomplish something big in an MMO like killing a major raid boss or achieving a high PvP rank.
And cash shop games force serious MMORPG players to pay out a lot more money than $15/mo to reach the level of success that they can do in subscription games. If WoW was a cash shop game, anyone who has their T10 armor set and has reached Arthas in ICC will probably have had to pay more than $15 in the last month for the gear and consumables. How much? I don't know, maybe 50$ - 100$. That's an arbitrary figure, but that's another problem with F2P -- How do I know going into a F2P how much I'm going to have to spend per month to be a high-end raider or to be competitive in PvP? I have nothing to go on. How can I seriously get into a MMORPG not knowing how much it's going to cost me?
The above poster couldn't have said it more lmao. Well F2P is really innovative, you know why? Selling elite armor/swords/gems only obtainable in web auction to the highest cash bidder is innovative. Making the crafting fail rates so high that the only answer is to spend more than 100 bucks to win a promotional item that never fails to craft that damn legendary sword is innovative. Setting the level cap to 60 when mallers can pay their way to do it in 3 days while you are stucked grinding for one month is innovative. The list could go on and on. In f2p there is no such thing as sense of achivement, if you think u finally had something after all much work, that toon beside you who didnt even raid the dungeon once, who never pvped before, who just started 3 days but have loads of cash could HAVE MUCH MORE BETTER GEARS than u lmfao. PVP in F2P? Thats a freakin joke. In almost all the f2p games i play, there aint no skills, how well you do in pvp is determined by the size of your wallet unless you got a whole guild to PK that imba-ed maller. If you think you could stand any equal chance of beating a well geared maller in endgame content, your obviously deluded lmao. In addition in some F2P games i play the grind is so insane that when i went to private servers(50x more exp) i am so shocked that levelling one level, lets say 151-152 takes nearly one week. Yeah, f2p, free to play but not free to fully enjoy unless u pay a hell lot of money(i got friends who payed 1k USD to gear his sh1t up but still his nowhere near the top). When i say a hell lot, its not 100 usd lmao, its more than that.. Poor and imbalance gameplay(in some f2p games i played, the release of a patch makes an already strong class stronger that you had to live with it or remake a char if you dont wanna ur ass to get pawned senselessly in arena and reasonable complains about this are purposely ignored even if the thread goes 19 pages long), Gm that never listens(its free just stfu and play, i dont listen to bugs, i'll only listen to the items players wants in item mall), i rather take my money to a p2p game, at least i know i have a chance to get the best gear not by itemshop but rather by playing the game itself. To the OP of this article, a pile of sh1t is a p1le of shit no matter how nicely decorated it is.
Oh look, Mr. Aioshi's decided to dedicate another article to categorically and disingenuously knocking an entire cross-section of people who don't love his beloved F2P model.
And this one in particular is chock full of BS.
So, where to begin?
The F2P space provides some pretty obvious examples. It's not hard at all to find self-proclaimed members of the "I'll never play any of them" club. I don't have the slightest expectation that I can convince those who are of this opinion to think otherwise. Not even a few, so although some seem convinced otherwise, I don't try. It's their prerogative to believe what they wish, and their doing so doesn't harm me in any way. And it hurts to bang my head against that wall or any other.
So, since you can't "convince" those of us who simply dont' like the F2P model to see things the way you do, it's better to just take pot-shots and make snarky generalizations about us, is that it? It would certainly be far beneath you to actually discuss, debate and defend the claims you make... No no... You are *far* too important to engage in actual conversation with those reading and disagreeing with those one-sided exercises in self-edification you call "columns".
That you describe trying to "convince" us that F2P is "the shiznit" as "pounding your head against a wall" says more about your mentality than you may realize. If only we realized how *wrong* we are... right?
That said, it has always struck me as curious when these same people turn around and bemoan the lack of innovation in MMOs. It seems like they're at least partially contradicting themselves. If that's what they truly want, I would think they'd be prepared, indeed keen, to embrace change, and also to seek out thinking that doesn't stick to the beaten path. Instead, they appear to dismiss the possibility of finding it in games outside their subscription-based comfort zone.
Bull. Shit.
I've played a number of F2P MMOs. I have not witnessed one iota of innovation in a single one. They were either WoW clones, or Lineage 2 clones... some slightly better than others. That's it. None of them were innovative, at all.
That said... exactly how many times must it be said, by how many people, before it gets through that thick skull of yours that what many people don't like about F2P is the *payment model* itself?
Also, here's another concept to "beat your head against" - Innovation has nothing to do with the game being P2P or F2P. Don't get me wrong, your attempt to make "innovation" and "F2P" seem synonymous didn't go unnoticed... It's just a load of crap.
How about this... I know it's an act in futility asking you to condescend to respond to us lowly forum dwellers, but how about *you* provide some examples of this innovation you speak of? What, exactly, is this "innovation" we're so unwilling to acknowledge? Enlighten us, oh great one.
In addition, if I decide, whether after due consideration or not, that something just isn't for me, why is it a problem if other people accept and even like it? As a personal example, I've never been a big fan of shooters, and that disinclination has carried over from single-player games into the MMO realm. So, I seldom play them - more than not at all, but not by very much. But hey, for those who are into them, cool. Go enjoy.
Good point. Why don't you ask that same question to those who can't seem to tolerate the idea that there are those who prefer P2P and don't like F2P. Oh... didn't notice that particular door swings both ways, did ya.
Perhaps the most common response is another of my curiosities. Deprecate whatever the thing in question is. Make it out to be undesirable. For anyone. Justify refusing to play any F2P MMOFPS by reasoning that it's only possible to have fun in them by spending a lot of money. This blithely ignores the fact that millions of people - a substantial large majority of users - play them while paying nothing at all. Do all those people like not enjoying themselves? Apparently so.
Ahhh yes the "majority of players don't pay a dime" spin.
I'll ask again, as I do every time I see that statement made...
Of that majority - how many are playing the game to its fullest? How many are doing the end-game content? How many are playing right along side those do pay and able to keep up with them step for step without paying a dime? How many of those accounts were merely trials to check the game out? How many of them play past the first 20 or 30 levels before the real grind of the game sets in? How many even played *to* level 20 or 30? How many created an account and played for a week? A few days? A day? A few hours?
Without that kind of break-down to see exactly how the numbers fall, that statement is *pointless*. It's no more convincing than a P2P developer stating "millions of accounts!" without explaining exactly what they're counting as accounts... for all we know, they're including free trials and inactive accounts.
Defenders of F2P are so quick to make that statement, yet none of them can provide one bit of information showing how that "majority" breaks down. I wager the numbers wouldn't be nearly as impressive as they seem... Perhaps that's a reason why no one's released any such numbers yet? Hmmm...
The question always left lingering after reading one of these articles by you, Mr. Aioshi... is how the hell does MMORPG.com continue to let you post columns here?
Well I was going to respond but WSIMike convey's my thoughts pretty accurately.
Another F2P "haters" are idiots, I am right, they are wrong "column" from Mr Aihoshi.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
Anything free doesn't come with a warranty, know one cares about said product.
It's only a question of time before the Devs realise, "We said way back when, that the Home PC would replace the CoinOp Industry". At least in CoinOPs, if the game was broke you had a chance to get your money back from the shop owner.
Ever sat in a room full of people with FLUFF, it stinks, I move to a better room.
Give me ONE reason this is a better model as I'm yet to hear a good enough explanation. May as well as put this on the shelf with those other words that they like to spin in your ear;
Customer Service
Next Generation Graphics
State of the Art
Next Big Thing
....Shall I continue.
OP here has a viewpoint, nothing wrong with that, I am just so sick of explanations or discussions on why "US HAters" WILL NEVER use f2p model system. Hell I was looking forward to joining Black Prophecy until they sprouted the new 3 letter word of favour....
The F2P space provides some pretty obvious examples. It's not hard at all to find self-proclaimed members of the "I'll never play any of them" club. I don't have the slightest expectation that I can convince those who are of this opinion to think otherwise. Not even a few, so although some seem convinced otherwise, I don't try. It's their prerogative to believe what they wish, and their doing so doesn't harm me in any way. And it hurts to bang my head against that wall or any other.
That said, it has always struck me as curious when these same people turn around and bemoan the lack of innovation in MMOs. It seems like they're at least partially contradicting themselves. If that's what they truly want, I would think they'd be prepared, indeed keen, to embrace change, and also to seek out thinking that doesn't stick to the beaten path. Instead, they appear to dismiss the possibility of finding it in games outside their subscription-based comfort zone.
When players talk about lack of innovation in MMOs they're talking about gameplay, not how they pay for the game. If a game came out that was a WoW clone but it accepted M&Ms and Skittles as its payment model, that wouldn't make it an innovative game, just another MMO lacking innovation which happens to have a very weird payment model. Coming up with innovative payment models is nothing more than developers working out ways to get players to pay more money. Why else would they mess with it?
Regarding the millions who enjoy F2P MMOFPS games without paying anything, I believe that's probably true, but those are casual players who aren't too concerned with achieving anything in the game and are just messing around in the game for fun. There's nothing wrong with that if that's your bag, but visitors to this site are more likely to be hardcore players who strive to be very successful in an MMO. We want to build up an uber high level character with all of the best stuff. In a F2P, your success in that area is measured in dollars spent.
That summed up my sentiments exactly. Different payment models may be innovative to the marketing team and the executives but I, as a gamer, couldn't care less. I care about game play and as far as I'm concerned, the MMO game play hasn't changed in over 10 years.
What's worse is that a lot of the promising next gen MMOs will have very similar game play.
Comments
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Firstly, for those who reared their heads and barked, you kind of just proved some of his over-time points about some P2Pers. Fairly sure most of us who aren't as closed minded know which. That wasn't an attack, mind you. Just pointing out the obvious, which isn't always obvious to some.
Secondly, I'd like to add this: Running a server isn't free, and Dev's do need to be paid to live. Dev'ing and working a full-time job is just harsh, as Dev'ing IS a full-time job, something many seem to forget. F2P games are a great way to let people have their fun, yet still keep the servers online, the rent paid (depending on whether or not you're renting an office), and the Dev's fed/clean/sheltered/etc. Cash shops are really the best way to do it without barring players from a vast majority of a game. Agreed, many cash shops out there are cheese in a can (just pay to open for your slice), but some aren't that bad.
Take Lunia for example. Most of the items I remember from their cash shop were fluff items which altered a piece of equipment to give it a new image, like the old Fish Sword or Cat Hat. Granted, these only lasted for 30 days before disappearing, but when your playerbase is low and expected to stay low, Dev's need to do what they can to remain fed.
The difference between subs and cash shops is that one can spend more in a cash shop than on a sub quite easily. But in some cases that isn't the Dev's faults. Sure, it's their faults when you have to invest in their cash shop to get ahead (For example, RoM's item strengthening and a few of their other CS items), but in some cases, it really is about the consumer and their want for shineys. Actually, it's a smart Dev who puts shiney items in the cash shop without causing the whole "You have to pay to get ahead!" argument. People like shiney items. If you had the chance to turn your bow and arrows in to a (image and animation only) chaingun, or a bow of light that shoots fireballs, just to have your character look awesome (and likely heroic), would you buy it? I know many who would, and do buy that sort of thing.
People tend to look at Cash Shops and scream "MONEY WHORES!" when in some cases, it isn't really true. Sure the Dev's of those few games want your money, but hey, they've got to live too you know. It's not a volunteer job where they make games for the world to play, absolutely for free. And as far as I know, most of the F2P games out there don't force you to spend money at the cash shop. It's the players who force themselves to pay or, in their minds, fail.
Food for thought.
MMO's played: Ragnarok Online (For years), WoW (for a few weeks only), Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Eve, Allods, Shattered Galaxy, 9 Dragons, City of Heroes, City of Villains, Star Trek Online (Got someone ELSE to pay for it), Champions Online (Someone else paid), Dofus, Dragonica, LOTRO, DDO and more... A LOT more. I've played good AND bad. The bad didn't last long. :P
1: Richard's column is about F2P games. Please re-read that enough times until it sticks. The posts calling for him to talk about other things is just silly. If the topic makes you mad enough that the comments are implying why even read his column? You know whats coming.
2: The responses here really proves his points that he keeps bringing up. As soon as F2P is mentioned some not only stop looking at a game but get rabbid and violent. You guys cant even stand to look at ads for games you will never play and that is somehow hurting you?
1. His column is not just about F2P games, it is about his opinion on people who avoid F2P games. As such, I decided to read it because I fall under that camp. That said, his column bothers me because he is being completely unprofessional by bashing a group of people for having their own valid opinion. He makes claims about those who avoid F2P games as being irrational, stubburn, and close minded. All of this, despite the fact that many people who dislike F2P games have stated again and again, very valid reasons why they dislike such a payment model, and why they dislike and avoid such games.
2. Actually, all that the responses have proven, is just how inflamatory his articles are becoming. He keeps claiming that there is irrational hate and bashing coming from non-F2P gamers against F2P gamers and players of F2P games. The only reason there are non-F2P gamers posting in an upset manner in his articles is because he is making inflamatory comments based on his personal opinion on those who avoid F2P games, that are made in the same vein of ignorance he's claiming those who choose not to play F2P games are. He is baiting people to come to his article and argue back. Why? Who knows, maybe he thinks it will prove his point about "irrational hate against F2P". In reality, it's dislike of his irrational claims that is prompting angry posts, not general dislike for F2P games.
Aihoshi's column is highly opinionated, inflamatory, and does nothing to actually contribute positively to the community's discussion concerning F2P MMOs. Columnists on MMORPG.com are columnists because of their professional experience on subject matter, and what they write is supposed to be for their professional views on the subject matter. Aihoshi's columns have become increasingly unprofessional by his constant inflamatory statements and accusations concerning gamers who prefer to steer clear of games with the P2P payment model.
Why should Aihoshi even have a column if the content is no more constructive than what a random forum troll would post?
I read Richard's column so I can come here and explain how he is misguided or just wrong in his statements. Why do I want to do that? Because if we don't and readers of this site view his articles and accept them as the truth with no counter argument, people might start to believe everything he has to say about F2P. He never has a bad word to say about F2P games, and that's a lie by omission, IMO. He never examines the problem of F2P games becoming elitist clubs with the "high class" gamers who can spend a lot of money versus the "low class" players who are stuck with weaker gear because they can't afford to spend a lot. He never writes about the challenges of a maintaining a decent game economy when it can shift dramatically depending on how much players are spending on items. He doesn't discuss how most F2P games are from Asian markets are are often poorly translated into English and other languages. He doesn't mention how grindy those games usually are. For whatever reason, his agenda is to promote F2P as the Best Thing Ever and never examine anything negative. He's the ultimate F2P fanboy. I think it's bad for MMORPGs to let those opinions about F2P go unchallenged.
"Rabid and violent" is an exaggeration, but definitely opinions are strong because many of us see that as F2P and item shops become more popular for MMORPGs (and even all games in general), it drastically reduces the quality of the gaming experience (at least for us). The satisfaction of achieving something great in those games is totally removed when the player next to you receives the exact same reward (or more likely a much better reward) by simply pulling out his credit card. That is extremely infuriating to anyone who knows what it's like to accomplish something big in an MMO like killing a major raid boss or achieving a high PvP rank.
And cash shop games force serious MMORPG players to pay out a lot more money than $15/mo to reach the level of success that they can do in subscription games. If WoW was a cash shop game, anyone who has their T10 armor set and has reached Arthas in ICC will probably have had to pay more than $15 in the last month for the gear and consumables. How much? I don't know, maybe 50$ - 100$. That's an arbitrary figure, but that's another problem with F2P -- How do I know going into a F2P how much I'm going to have to spend per month to be a high-end raider or to be competitive in PvP? I have nothing to go on. How can I seriously get into a MMORPG not knowing how much it's going to cost me?
tl;dr F2P sucks, cash shops are evil.
The above poster couldn't have said it more lmao. Well F2P is really innovative, you know why? Selling elite armor/swords/gems only obtainable in web auction to the highest cash bidder is innovative. Making the crafting fail rates so high that the only answer is to spend more than 100 bucks to win a promotional item that never fails to craft that damn legendary sword is innovative. Setting the level cap to 60 when mallers can pay their way to do it in 3 days while you are stucked grinding for one month is innovative. The list could go on and on. In f2p there is no such thing as sense of achivement, if you think u finally had something after all much work, that toon beside you who didnt even raid the dungeon once, who never pvped before, who just started 3 days but have loads of cash could HAVE MUCH MORE BETTER GEARS than u lmfao. PVP in F2P? Thats a freakin joke. In almost all the f2p games i play, there aint no skills, how well you do in pvp is determined by the size of your wallet unless you got a whole guild to PK that imba-ed maller. If you think you could stand any equal chance of beating a well geared maller in endgame content, your obviously deluded lmao. In addition in some F2P games i play the grind is so insane that when i went to private servers(50x more exp) i am so shocked that levelling one level, lets say 151-152 takes nearly one week. Yeah, f2p, free to play but not free to fully enjoy unless u pay a hell lot of money(i got friends who payed 1k USD to gear his sh1t up but still his nowhere near the top). When i say a hell lot, its not 100 usd lmao, its more than that.. Poor and imbalance gameplay(in some f2p games i played, the release of a patch makes an already strong class stronger that you had to live with it or remake a char if you dont wanna ur ass to get pawned senselessly in arena and reasonable complains about this are purposely ignored even if the thread goes 19 pages long), Gm that never listens(its free just stfu and play, i dont listen to bugs, i'll only listen to the items players wants in item mall), i rather take my money to a p2p game, at least i know i have a chance to get the best gear not by itemshop but rather by playing the game itself. To the OP of this article, a pile of sh1t is a p1le of shit no matter how nicely decorated it is.
Well I was going to respond but WSIMike convey's my thoughts pretty accurately.
Another F2P "haters" are idiots, I am right, they are wrong "column" from Mr Aihoshi.
Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!
For me this F2P model is crap because;
Anything free doesn't come with a warranty, know one cares about said product.
It's only a question of time before the Devs realise, "We said way back when, that the Home PC would replace the CoinOp Industry". At least in CoinOPs, if the game was broke you had a chance to get your money back from the shop owner.
Ever sat in a room full of people with FLUFF, it stinks, I move to a better room.
Give me ONE reason this is a better model as I'm yet to hear a good enough explanation. May as well as put this on the shelf with those other words that they like to spin in your ear;
Customer Service
Next Generation Graphics
State of the Art
Next Big Thing
....Shall I continue.
OP here has a viewpoint, nothing wrong with that, I am just so sick of explanations or discussions on why "US HAters" WILL NEVER use f2p model system. Hell I was looking forward to joining Black Prophecy until they sprouted the new 3 letter word of favour....
That summed up my sentiments exactly. Different payment models may be innovative to the marketing team and the executives but I, as a gamer, couldn't care less. I care about game play and as far as I'm concerned, the MMO game play hasn't changed in over 10 years.
What's worse is that a lot of the promising next gen MMOs will have very similar game play.
Edit: It's couldn't care less, damn it!