Need before greed makes no sense in a game where anyone can be anything just by holding a different weapon....everyone needs everything.
Not if you already have one of the item, or something better.
And definitely not if you have no plans to play said job that uses the drop. Just cause you can switch jobs doesn't mean everyone will play them all. Now sure you may change your mind later on, but at that very moment if you have no plans to use it then you shouldn't need it!
so will there be no multi class weapons? will new weapons have restrictions based on rank or physical lvl? im not in alpha and its so much thats still hidden from us. i would like to know more so i can come to a better conclusion about need before greed. in the event that its based on rank or physical lvl, i can see some restrictions being put into place on who gets what. i still dont think need before greed will be a problem, but awaiting more info.
While mage classes share the same weapon types (Conjurer and Thaumaturge arms), only one class can wear specific weapon at time. Some recent info also suggests melee classes will get to share weapon types (Gladiator uses more traditional style straight and curved blades, and some other class uses rapiers).
Since in the Japanese version the classes are named after their weapon, it would not make much sense if a Sword-user could use a Spear or Great Axe user could use bow.
The equipment is based on multiple things, like how much stats do you have (300+ STR only), what discipline you are (some are War only, some are Magic only, some are class specific), some require specific amount of rank (not physical level afaik).
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
1. Get rid of silly BoA system. It makes no sense from a game perspective, although it's easy to understand why devs like it.
2. Loot should be auto-assigned by the game. No arguments, no 'ninjaing' possible, etc. Luck is already a factor in the loot that drops, just have the game take the next step.
1. Get rid of silly BoA system. It makes no sense from a game perspective, although it's easy to understand why devs like it.
2. Loot should be auto-assigned by the game. No arguments, no 'ninjaing' possible, etc. Luck is already a factor in the loot that drops, just have the game take the next step.
Problem solved.
So "Luck" should decide everything?
Solve the problem by implementing even worse problem.. well, that's a solution.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Need before greed makes no sense in a game where anyone can be anything just by holding a different weapon....everyone needs everything.
Not if you already have one of the item, or something better.
And definitely not if you have no plans to play said job that uses the drop. Just cause you can switch jobs doesn't mean everyone will play them all. Now sure you may change your mind later on, but at that very moment if you have no plans to use it then you shouldn't need it!
Fine, let me adjust my point. You NEED the item...and I NEED cash to buy something like it that I can use. We are both in the party and have as much claim to anything that drops, because one way or another, we both need it, either directly or indirectly.
If you wish to be generous and pass on a roll for an item that someone in the party can immediately use, by all means, feel free. Most of the time I do...but it is exactly that, a courtesy. If I am particularly desperate for cash...then sorry, I NEED it too.
But in this game, odds are, everyone will have a legitimate claim to most drops. So a need/greed mode seems superfluous, as anyone can click NEED and not really be accused of not needing it, directly or indirectly.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone www.spankybus.com -3d Artist & Compositor -Writer -Professional Amature
This has been a major concern of mine since the chatter over FFXIV started.I see this on very forum in every guild forum.This if following FFXI's pattern will not be a concern for a very long time,yet people are more worried about end game ideas before they even play the actual game.
.Personally i prefer to just let the auto loot do it all,this means players are there for the FUN as EVERYONE claims and not just turning the game into EQ/WOW end game looting drama.
The facts are already cut and dry,ALL players will NEED EVERY single drop,we have access to ALL class,this is not WOW or EQ,i think TOO many seem to forget this?So either have a straight up pecking order or just let auto loot do it's thing.If an item is totally useless because a player already has it and perhaps they have a rare/ex system in place,then the obvious thing would be for that player to pass,no elaborate system needed,just common sense.
Ahh... don't say "all players wll need every single drop", because you can't speak for eveyrone. Perhaps *you* will do that. Certainly others will. Not everyone else will.
I don't do that now, in any MMO. I won't do it in FFXIV. I'm actually happy to see someone who *could* use that new staff, or that new bow get the drop, because I realize the game isn't "all about me". Yes, that mentality has resulted in me getting screwed over because someone else who wants anything that drops whether they can use it or not decided to roll on it and got the win... which is typically frowned upon by others in the group.
The way I see it... they got a short-term reward, but with potential long-term consequences. At some point down the road, if they keep doing what they do, they're going to find it difficult to find groups, because people will know them as that person who rolls on everything whether they can use it or not. Being perceived as a greedy dick in a MMO - at least one like FFXI where the community is such that your reptutation actually carries weight for better or worse - is not conducive to a very pleasant play experience in the long term.
I've known people who have stopped playing for a few months, have re-rolled new characters, or have transferred servers (once they were implemented) to escape the poor reputation they had earned. A friend told me that someone on his server had gotten such a bad rep that he moved servers, hung out there for a while to let people "forget about him" and assume he'd quit. He came back to the server with a different name to try and escape his reputation. That worked for a little while - 'til people found out who he actually was... then he was right down the tubes again. He finally quit permanently. All because he thought "I can do whatever I want and I don't care what people think".
So.. to people who will justify rolling need on something they *don't* need, can't use, and only want so they can sell it, when there's someone else in the group who can use it and actually does need it... have at it and enjoy it while you can. If FFXIV's community is anything like XI's (and I hope it is), you're only digging your own hole.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Need before greed makes no sense in a game where anyone can be anything just by holding a different weapon....everyone needs everything.
Not if you already have one of the item, or something better.
And definitely not if you have no plans to play said job that uses the drop. Just cause you can switch jobs doesn't mean everyone will play them all. Now sure you may change your mind later on, but at that very moment if you have no plans to use it then you shouldn't need it!
Yeah, people try that mentality in XI now as well. "Well I'm leveling that job so I will need it".
The response is "Wonderful, so come along on that job when you're ready and you can roll on it. You don't need it right now. Someone else does."
It would be no different in XIV even being able to switch classes in-between fights. If you're there for that session as a Mage, then that you can change to a Gladiator means nothing... you're not playing that class. If someone else is playing a Mage in that group, doesn't have the upgrade already and can use it to improve their character, then they should get it. The person playing Gladiator could 'greed' on it... or could come back as a Mage next time and roll on the item if it drops again.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Err, I'm a little confused Mike. I thought that your post on the first page indicated that you weren't in favor of Need before Greed, as evidenced by your dislike of the party member who demanded an item that he claimed he needed? After a second read, I'm wondering if you're just against people who agree (out loud or by silent consent) to one system of distribution and then change their tune as soon as it benefits them to do so. I said earlier that I didn't like the NBG system that everyone in Aion insists upon, but I ALWAYS abided by it 100%. I don't think you'll find anyone here arguing that it's okay to claim Need during an FFA group or roll on a item needed by someone else in NBG. It's plainly dishonest. I think you're preaching to the choir on that specific topic.
I have to admit, I'm still thoroughly boggled by the "only Need for your current class" stipulation. I thought that the concept behind NBG was that it is somehow better for an item to be used than to be sold (...to someone else who is going to use it, but I digress). If Person X wants the item so that they can equip it and Person Y wants the item so that they can sell it, it is nobler or more generous or whatever for Person X to get it. I do not agree with this sentiment but I can understand why people would feel that way. What I can't understand is how only the current class counts.
I am a Lancer who also plays Archer. No one else in the party plays Archer at all. A bow drops. If I get the item, I will use it. If anyone else gets the item, they will sell it. What am I missing here? Is it an attempt at extra fairness? A defense against people who cheat the system? What?
If I am particularly desperate for cash...then sorry, I NEED it too.
So essentially you're letting us know already that you plan to ninja loot often just the sell the item, instead of letting another group member that really does need the item have it...wonderful!
Need before greed makes no sense in a game where anyone can be anything just by holding a different weapon....everyone needs everything.
Not if you already have one of the item, or something better.
And definitely not if you have no plans to play said job that uses the drop. Just cause you can switch jobs doesn't mean everyone will play them all. Now sure you may change your mind later on, but at that very moment if you have no plans to use it then you shouldn't need it!
Yeah, people try that mentality in XI now as well. "Well I'm leveling that job so I will need it".
The response is "Wonderful, so come along on that job when you're ready and you can roll on it. You don't need it right now. Someone else does."
It would be no different in XIV even being able to switch classes in-between fights. If you're there for that session as a Mage, then that you can change to a Gladiator means nothing... you're not playing that class. If someone else is playing a Mage in that group, doesn't have the upgrade already and can use it to improve their character, then they should get it. The person playing Gladiator could 'greed' on it... or could come back as a Mage next time and roll on the item if it drops again.
In total agreement with ya here...even though you can change jobs at will now, if you "are not" playng that specific job at the moment that item drops regardless if you need it or not, the player that is playing said job should automatically get 100% need lot for it, and nobody else should roll. Come back later on that same job and if the item should drop again then sure you can lot for it, but until then you should pass or just roll greed.
Or ask the party after the current member gets the item, "should it drop again can I please have it for that class I play on the side?"
This is how I've always played in FFXI and most other MMOs, its a very fair system for everyone and yes while granted many times you'll do things and never get a drop, but seriously its about the journey and adventures you make with friends, and other players first...the chances of loot you can use dropping is just an exciting perk for participating. You may get it, you may not...
Errr, instead let me boil it down to 2 questions. Based on what you know of the game so far, what are your thoughts about how you would like party members to divvy up loot in FFXIV? And what are your hopes/fears regarding the loot mechanics that S-E might build right into the client?
(I'm only talking about pickup groups here. Obviously it makes a lot of sense for static groups or linkshell groups to use whatever distribution system they want.)
When I first started playing WoW (May '05) I quickly became irked by the binding system used with gear. I mostly played with partial or complete PUGs the first year or so, and I went on the Warcraft NG and suggested that the standard should be to roll 'need' on everything. Afterall, everything could be sold, and everyone needs money. I still think that this is the only reasonable way to handle PUGs. WH Online brought in a class-based restriction on rolling need for PvP gear drops, which was a good idea, but is still vague on the concept of need.
The best system I can think of would be to set 'need' qualifications prior to the run and not allow it to be changed without unanimous consent. Players could claim need on the class and professions they start the run as. I can definitely see FFXIV players switching classes between individual bosses if their current class afects their loot eligibility.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
What has gaming come to that this question is even asked?
Exactly what MMO devs want it to be: A selfish loot grind with strangers.
A new generation of greedier/holier than though gamers are ruining the genre. If you don't want to share go play a solo game. Otherwise don't whine about not being able to roll on gear for a class you're not playing at that particular time.
I completely agree, but we are outnumbered.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
1. Get rid of silly BoA system. It makes no sense from a game perspective, although it's easy to understand why devs like it.
2. Loot should be auto-assigned by the game. No arguments, no 'ninjaing' possible, etc. Luck is already a factor in the loot that drops, just have the game take the next step.
Problem solved.
So "Luck" should decide everything?
Solve the problem by implementing even worse problem.. well, that's a solution.
Luck already determines what drops. If it can be used by more than one class in the group, then, assuming both hit 'need', a random number will roll and the player with the most luck will get the item.
What I'm proposing is just speed up the process. Loot is all auto-assigned (no having to loot corpses), and the computer decides, with smart randomness (since I rolled a mage item, it goes to the mage) who gets the item. People could no longer ninja, or complain about someone else rolling 'need'.
It's really not hard to be fair to everyone during loot distribution.
I'd almost take this as a personal insult... After leading several different endgame linkshells and seeing how a lot others work, I can say that there's no way in hell that you could be fair to everyone during loot distribution. At least not in a non-PUG situation.
What if the Archer has been in the LS a year longer than the Conjurer? What if the drop rate is about 1% for the item meaning you wouldn't see it again for maybe 3, even 6 months? What if the Conjurer has already gotten 4 drops during his time in the LS and Archer has in the same timeframe only obtained one or no drops? What if the Archer is the leader of the LS?
And this is important: What if the Archer is only Archer because the leader asked him to come as an Archer and not Conjurer even though he wanted to? What if the situation is vice-versa for the Conjurer, but he would also like to get the drop?
I can make more examples on the fly... and you can make "solutions" on the fly... and soon we'll have a -50 DEEKAYPEE system with 10 pages of rules to read.
Good points, and that is why I think everyone rolling need makes the most sense. There are way too many variables to consider, and even if the leader is weighing them - some of the other players won't be. It 's quite possible to make a fair and just call - and be hated for it.
There is a saying - "Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done." Only a completely random roll can be obviously fair to everyone.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So essentially you're letting us know already that you plan to ninja loot often just the sell the item, instead of letting another group member that really does need the item have it...wonderful!
I have had that accusation aimed at me on this point, and I remind people that stating a certain system should be used doesn't mean one goes outside of group intent to exercise it. Groups should always determine loot rules in advance, or use what the game sets as the default.
It's not 'ninja'ing if everyone has agreed to it in advance.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Luck already determines what drops. If it can be used by more than one class in the group, then, assuming both hit 'need', a random number will roll and the player with the most luck will get the item.
What I'm proposing is just speed up the process. Loot is all auto-assigned (no having to loot corpses), and the computer decides, with smart randomness (since I rolled a mage item, it goes to the mage) who gets the item. People could no longer ninja, or complain about someone else rolling 'need'.
Yes, they'd only quit the whole game because the lady luck decided to be against them 10th time in the row. That will get rid of the ninjas, greedy people... and everyone else as well.
Some people already quit because the drop rates are based on luck, not skill... let's take it to the next level >_>.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Need before greed makes no sense in a game where anyone can be anything just by holding a different weapon....everyone needs everything.
Not if you already have one of the item, or something better.
And definitely not if you have no plans to play said job that uses the drop. Just cause you can switch jobs doesn't mean everyone will play them all. Now sure you may change your mind later on, but at that very moment if you have no plans to use it then you shouldn't need it!
Yeah, people try that mentality in XI now as well. "Well I'm leveling that job so I will need it".
The response is "Wonderful, so come along on that job when you're ready and you can roll on it. You don't need it right now. Someone else does."
It would be no different in XIV even being able to switch classes in-between fights. If you're there for that session as a Mage, then that you can change to a Gladiator means nothing... you're not playing that class. If someone else is playing a Mage in that group, doesn't have the upgrade already and can use it to improve their character, then they should get it. The person playing Gladiator could 'greed' on it... or could come back as a Mage next time and roll on the item if it drops again.
In total agreement with ya here...even though you can change jobs at will now, if you "are not" playng that specific job at the moment that item drops regardless if you need it or not, the player that is playing said job should automatically get 100% need lot for it, and nobody else should roll. Come back later on that same job and if the item should drop again then sure you can lot for it, but until then you should pass or just roll greed.
Or ask the party after the current member gets the item, "should it drop again can I please have it for that class I play on the side?"
This is how I've always played in FFXI and most other MMOs, its a very fair system for everyone and yes while granted many times you'll do things and never get a drop, but seriously its about the journey and adventures you make with friends, and other players first...the chances of loot you can use dropping is just an exciting perk for participating. You may get it, you may not...
Going from my experience as a leader, i cannot agree with this. There are too many variables to make such an absolute decision. I'd say 50% of the events i've done, people were on classes that were needed for said event rather than classes they wanted to play. This of course depended on who arrived first and overall skill, but i tried to keep it as fair as possible. You can't please everyone, as i'm sure everyone is fully aware, you just have to look at the big picture as make the best call at the time. Exclusion on rolling, based on what class someone is on, doesn't work in a system like XI. I'm going to assume it wont work in XIV either, as you'll have people only willing to play their "main", while forcing others to pick up the slack playing the class needed.
Good points, and that is why I think everyone rolling need makes the most sense. There are way too many variables to consider, and even if the leader is weighing them - some of the other players won't be. It 's quite possible to make a fair and just call - and be hated for it.
There is a saying - "Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done." Only a completely random roll can be obviously fair to everyone.
Usually most people see the justice even if some people don't... ex. the guy who didn't get the drop and his posse.
If they don't see the fairness, then that's their problem.
What do you consider "fair", anyway? If loot is randomly distributed, and someone doesn't win after the 100th time, while some other guy wins 50 times, is that fair for the loser? He has bad luck, but I wouldn't call that fair. Luck never is.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I really hate all this NBG stuff. Luckily the game I'm currently playing has a completely random drop system where you don't even choose to roll and pass and nobody knows who gets what drops unless they tell you.
Going from my experience as a leader, i cannot agree with this. There are too many variables to make such an absolute decision. I'd say 50% of the events i've done, people were on classes that were needed for said event rather than classes they wanted to play. This of course depended on who arrived first and overall skill, but i tried to keep it as fair as possible. You can't please everyone, as i'm sure everyone is fully aware, you just have to look at the big picture as make the best call at the time. Exclusion on rolling, based on what class someone is on, doesn't work in a system like XI. I'm going to assume it wont work in XIV either, as you'll have people only willing to play their "main", while forcing others to pick up the slack playing the class needed.
In my experience, if someone is coming on a job that isn't their main, but wants a drop for a different job, it's usually discussed ahead of time so there's agreement and understanding that should x-item drop, they get to roll on it. Especially if they're only coming on that job on request of the leader to fill a role other than what they normally would. That's an exception.
The LS I'm in, for example, handles Dynamis drops by having people put what drops they want in their comments. Then,when that item drops, those people - and only those people - roll on it... even if they're not on that job. Again, this supercedes the "random drop" aspect, as it's understood and agreed to before the event begins.
Another LS had members list the items they wanted on their forums before each run and the leader tracked them that way.
If no previous arrangements exist for a given drop, then the leader will say "free lot" and anyone can roll on it.
If anyone rolls on an item they're not supposed to because they decide "I want it anyway", they're kicked from the group and are never allowed on future runs.
I'm speaking specifically about drops in a situation where there is no pre-existing agreement or understanding of how they're going to be disbursed... To me, the drop should be left to go to the person - in that group - whose current job/class would benefit from it "right now". People saying "Well I have a PLD at level 20, so I'm going to need it" should not be a good reason to roll on a level 60 item if there's a 60+ PLD in the group who could use and benefit it upon acquiring it. And, in most every case of groups I've been in, it's been set up that way and, for the most part - at least in XI - it's gone fairly smoothly.
People do mostly tend to agree - even fi they'd like the item for themself - that it should go to the person who could most benefit from it at that time. You have your occasional person who thinks all loot should go to them, but they're the exception in my experience - again.. in XI.
I think it's important to have rules set out like that in situations where valuable drops are possible in a group of people. Otherwise, the sitaution quickly degrades into arguing and drama over "who should have gotten it", people stop paying attention to what they're doing because they're too busy raging, and it can potentially ruin the entire run.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Need before greed makes no sense in a game where anyone can be anything just by holding a different weapon....everyone needs everything.
Not if you already have one of the item, or something better.
And definitely not if you have no plans to play said job that uses the drop. Just cause you can switch jobs doesn't mean everyone will play them all. Now sure you may change your mind later on, but at that very moment if you have no plans to use it then you shouldn't need it!
Yeah, people try that mentality in XI now as well. "Well I'm leveling that job so I will need it".
The response is "Wonderful, so come along on that job when you're ready and you can roll on it. You don't need it right now. Someone else does."
It would be no different in XIV even being able to switch classes in-between fights. If you're there for that session as a Mage, then that you can change to a Gladiator means nothing... you're not playing that class. If someone else is playing a Mage in that group, doesn't have the upgrade already and can use it to improve their character, then they should get it. The person playing Gladiator could 'greed' on it... or could come back as a Mage next time and roll on the item if it drops again.
In total agreement with ya here...even though you can change jobs at will now, if you "are not" playng that specific job at the moment that item drops regardless if you need it or not, the player that is playing said job should automatically get 100% need lot for it, and nobody else should roll. Come back later on that same job and if the item should drop again then sure you can lot for it, but until then you should pass or just roll greed.
Or ask the party after the current member gets the item, "should it drop again can I please have it for that class I play on the side?"
This is how I've always played in FFXI and most other MMOs, its a very fair system for everyone and yes while granted many times you'll do things and never get a drop, but seriously its about the journey and adventures you make with friends, and other players first...the chances of loot you can use dropping is just an exciting perk for participating. You may get it, you may not...
Going from my experience as a leader, i cannot agree with this. There are too many variables to make such an absolute decision. I'd say 50% of the events i've done, people were on classes that were needed for said event rather than classes they wanted to play. This of course depended on who arrived first and overall skill, but i tried to keep it as fair as possible. You can't please everyone, as i'm sure everyone is fully aware, you just have to look at the big picture as make the best call at the time. Exclusion on rolling, based on what class someone is on, doesn't work in a system like XI. I'm going to assume it wont work in XIV either, as you'll have people only willing to play their "main", while forcing others to pick up the slack playing the class needed.
Was just discussing this with one of the officers in our LS, and I understand what you're getting at and yes there should be exceptions made for players that may potentially show up late and/or are needed now as one of their other jobs cause their main position is already filled. They still come regardless for the good of the PT and LS so yeah I'd give them slack and should something drop for their main that they need then sure they can lot for it too along with the others in the PT that potentially need it.
This scenario I see more related to special events like in Dynamis, or Nyzul, Campain, etc or even for 3-5 star Guildleve that requires 6-15 members, but the standard XP PT or random adventure exploring with rather average possible gear drops I stand by what I said above...
Usually most people see the justice even if some people don't... ex. the guy who didn't get the drop and his posse.
If they don't see the fairness, then that's their problem.
Not in a group. It's everyone's problem.
What do you consider "fair", anyway? If loot is randomly distributed, and someone doesn't win after the 100th time, while some other guy wins 50 times, is that fair for the loser? He has bad luck, but I wouldn't call that fair. Luck never is.
Luck is neither fair nor unfair. Only people with a code of ethics and morals can act WRT fairness.
It is human nature that a small run of bad luck will make a much larger impression on a player than a run of good luck. Many people condition themselves into believing that good luck is 'deserved' while bad luck is 'unfair'.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The rest of us need not care about someone getting butthurt over a fair decision. It's only his problem, and if he can't deal with it, he can leave. There are always replacements, so it doesn't concern us in any way.
Luck is neither fair nor unfair. Only people with a code of ethics and morals can act WRT fairness.
It is human nature that a small run of bad luck will make a much larger impression on a player than a run of good luck. Many people condition themselves into believing that good luck is 'deserved' while bad luck is 'unfair'.
Humans make luck fair or unfair. I don't see what's the difference here. If people condition themselves into believing bad luck is unfair, then that will make the system unfair, and thus even worse than where we started.
You still didn't tell me what do you consider "fair". Why do you link "fairness" to only humanity?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
With a random group I think best would be just random drops and when you go do stuff with Guild mates then need before greed
Currently playing: N/A
Retired from: GW, WAR, Aion, LOTRO, Rift, SW:TOR, Vinductus
And definitely not if you have no plans to play said job that uses the drop. Just cause you can switch jobs doesn't mean everyone will play them all. Now sure you may change your mind later on, but at that very moment if you have no plans to use it then you shouldn't need it!
While mage classes share the same weapon types (Conjurer and Thaumaturge arms), only one class can wear specific weapon at time. Some recent info also suggests melee classes will get to share weapon types (Gladiator uses more traditional style straight and curved blades, and some other class uses rapiers).
Since in the Japanese version the classes are named after their weapon, it would not make much sense if a Sword-user could use a Spear or Great Axe user could use bow.
The equipment is based on multiple things, like how much stats do you have (300+ STR only), what discipline you are (some are War only, some are Magic only, some are class specific), some require specific amount of rank (not physical level afaik).
The problem lies in a poorly-conceived mechanic.
1. Get rid of silly BoA system. It makes no sense from a game perspective, although it's easy to understand why devs like it.
2. Loot should be auto-assigned by the game. No arguments, no 'ninjaing' possible, etc. Luck is already a factor in the loot that drops, just have the game take the next step.
Problem solved.
So "Luck" should decide everything?
Solve the problem by implementing even worse problem.. well, that's a solution.
Fine, let me adjust my point. You NEED the item...and I NEED cash to buy something like it that I can use. We are both in the party and have as much claim to anything that drops, because one way or another, we both need it, either directly or indirectly.
If you wish to be generous and pass on a roll for an item that someone in the party can immediately use, by all means, feel free. Most of the time I do...but it is exactly that, a courtesy. If I am particularly desperate for cash...then sorry, I NEED it too.
But in this game, odds are, everyone will have a legitimate claim to most drops. So a need/greed mode seems superfluous, as anyone can click NEED and not really be accused of not needing it, directly or indirectly.
Frank 'Spankybus' Mignone
www.spankybus.com
-3d Artist & Compositor
-Writer
-Professional Amature
Ahh... don't say "all players wll need every single drop", because you can't speak for eveyrone. Perhaps *you* will do that. Certainly others will. Not everyone else will.
I don't do that now, in any MMO. I won't do it in FFXIV. I'm actually happy to see someone who *could* use that new staff, or that new bow get the drop, because I realize the game isn't "all about me". Yes, that mentality has resulted in me getting screwed over because someone else who wants anything that drops whether they can use it or not decided to roll on it and got the win... which is typically frowned upon by others in the group.
The way I see it... they got a short-term reward, but with potential long-term consequences. At some point down the road, if they keep doing what they do, they're going to find it difficult to find groups, because people will know them as that person who rolls on everything whether they can use it or not. Being perceived as a greedy dick in a MMO - at least one like FFXI where the community is such that your reptutation actually carries weight for better or worse - is not conducive to a very pleasant play experience in the long term.
I've known people who have stopped playing for a few months, have re-rolled new characters, or have transferred servers (once they were implemented) to escape the poor reputation they had earned. A friend told me that someone on his server had gotten such a bad rep that he moved servers, hung out there for a while to let people "forget about him" and assume he'd quit. He came back to the server with a different name to try and escape his reputation. That worked for a little while - 'til people found out who he actually was... then he was right down the tubes again. He finally quit permanently. All because he thought "I can do whatever I want and I don't care what people think".
So.. to people who will justify rolling need on something they *don't* need, can't use, and only want so they can sell it, when there's someone else in the group who can use it and actually does need it... have at it and enjoy it while you can. If FFXIV's community is anything like XI's (and I hope it is), you're only digging your own hole.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Yeah, people try that mentality in XI now as well. "Well I'm leveling that job so I will need it".
The response is "Wonderful, so come along on that job when you're ready and you can roll on it. You don't need it right now. Someone else does."
It would be no different in XIV even being able to switch classes in-between fights. If you're there for that session as a Mage, then that you can change to a Gladiator means nothing... you're not playing that class. If someone else is playing a Mage in that group, doesn't have the upgrade already and can use it to improve their character, then they should get it. The person playing Gladiator could 'greed' on it... or could come back as a Mage next time and roll on the item if it drops again.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Err, I'm a little confused Mike. I thought that your post on the first page indicated that you weren't in favor of Need before Greed, as evidenced by your dislike of the party member who demanded an item that he claimed he needed? After a second read, I'm wondering if you're just against people who agree (out loud or by silent consent) to one system of distribution and then change their tune as soon as it benefits them to do so. I said earlier that I didn't like the NBG system that everyone in Aion insists upon, but I ALWAYS abided by it 100%. I don't think you'll find anyone here arguing that it's okay to claim Need during an FFA group or roll on a item needed by someone else in NBG. It's plainly dishonest. I think you're preaching to the choir on that specific topic.
I have to admit, I'm still thoroughly boggled by the "only Need for your current class" stipulation. I thought that the concept behind NBG was that it is somehow better for an item to be used than to be sold (...to someone else who is going to use it, but I digress). If Person X wants the item so that they can equip it and Person Y wants the item so that they can sell it, it is nobler or more generous or whatever for Person X to get it. I do not agree with this sentiment but I can understand why people would feel that way. What I can't understand is how only the current class counts.
I am a Lancer who also plays Archer. No one else in the party plays Archer at all. A bow drops. If I get the item, I will use it. If anyone else gets the item, they will sell it. What am I missing here? Is it an attempt at extra fairness? A defense against people who cheat the system? What?
I thought Mike's stance seemed pretty consistent, actually. I may not agree with it all but it was consistent.
So essentially you're letting us know already that you plan to ninja loot often just the sell the item, instead of letting another group member that really does need the item have it...wonderful!
In total agreement with ya here...even though you can change jobs at will now, if you "are not" playng that specific job at the moment that item drops regardless if you need it or not, the player that is playing said job should automatically get 100% need lot for it, and nobody else should roll. Come back later on that same job and if the item should drop again then sure you can lot for it, but until then you should pass or just roll greed.
Or ask the party after the current member gets the item, "should it drop again can I please have it for that class I play on the side?"
This is how I've always played in FFXI and most other MMOs, its a very fair system for everyone and yes while granted many times you'll do things and never get a drop, but seriously its about the journey and adventures you make with friends, and other players first...the chances of loot you can use dropping is just an exciting perk for participating. You may get it, you may not...
When I first started playing WoW (May '05) I quickly became irked by the binding system used with gear. I mostly played with partial or complete PUGs the first year or so, and I went on the Warcraft NG and suggested that the standard should be to roll 'need' on everything. Afterall, everything could be sold, and everyone needs money. I still think that this is the only reasonable way to handle PUGs. WH Online brought in a class-based restriction on rolling need for PvP gear drops, which was a good idea, but is still vague on the concept of need.
The best system I can think of would be to set 'need' qualifications prior to the run and not allow it to be changed without unanimous consent. Players could claim need on the class and professions they start the run as. I can definitely see FFXIV players switching classes between individual bosses if their current class afects their loot eligibility.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I completely agree, but we are outnumbered.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Luck already determines what drops. If it can be used by more than one class in the group, then, assuming both hit 'need', a random number will roll and the player with the most luck will get the item.
What I'm proposing is just speed up the process. Loot is all auto-assigned (no having to loot corpses), and the computer decides, with smart randomness (since I rolled a mage item, it goes to the mage) who gets the item. People could no longer ninja, or complain about someone else rolling 'need'.
Good points, and that is why I think everyone rolling need makes the most sense. There are way too many variables to consider, and even if the leader is weighing them - some of the other players won't be. It 's quite possible to make a fair and just call - and be hated for it.
There is a saying - "Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done." Only a completely random roll can be obviously fair to everyone.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I have had that accusation aimed at me on this point, and I remind people that stating a certain system should be used doesn't mean one goes outside of group intent to exercise it. Groups should always determine loot rules in advance, or use what the game sets as the default.
It's not 'ninja'ing if everyone has agreed to it in advance.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Yes, they'd only quit the whole game because the lady luck decided to be against them 10th time in the row. That will get rid of the ninjas, greedy people... and everyone else as well.
Some people already quit because the drop rates are based on luck, not skill... let's take it to the next level >_>.
Going from my experience as a leader, i cannot agree with this. There are too many variables to make such an absolute decision. I'd say 50% of the events i've done, people were on classes that were needed for said event rather than classes they wanted to play. This of course depended on who arrived first and overall skill, but i tried to keep it as fair as possible. You can't please everyone, as i'm sure everyone is fully aware, you just have to look at the big picture as make the best call at the time. Exclusion on rolling, based on what class someone is on, doesn't work in a system like XI. I'm going to assume it wont work in XIV either, as you'll have people only willing to play their "main", while forcing others to pick up the slack playing the class needed.
Usually most people see the justice even if some people don't... ex. the guy who didn't get the drop and his posse.
If they don't see the fairness, then that's their problem.
What do you consider "fair", anyway? If loot is randomly distributed, and someone doesn't win after the 100th time, while some other guy wins 50 times, is that fair for the loser? He has bad luck, but I wouldn't call that fair. Luck never is.
I really hate all this NBG stuff. Luckily the game I'm currently playing has a completely random drop system where you don't even choose to roll and pass and nobody knows who gets what drops unless they tell you.
In my experience, if someone is coming on a job that isn't their main, but wants a drop for a different job, it's usually discussed ahead of time so there's agreement and understanding that should x-item drop, they get to roll on it. Especially if they're only coming on that job on request of the leader to fill a role other than what they normally would. That's an exception.
The LS I'm in, for example, handles Dynamis drops by having people put what drops they want in their comments. Then,when that item drops, those people - and only those people - roll on it... even if they're not on that job. Again, this supercedes the "random drop" aspect, as it's understood and agreed to before the event begins.
Another LS had members list the items they wanted on their forums before each run and the leader tracked them that way.
If no previous arrangements exist for a given drop, then the leader will say "free lot" and anyone can roll on it.
If anyone rolls on an item they're not supposed to because they decide "I want it anyway", they're kicked from the group and are never allowed on future runs.
I'm speaking specifically about drops in a situation where there is no pre-existing agreement or understanding of how they're going to be disbursed... To me, the drop should be left to go to the person - in that group - whose current job/class would benefit from it "right now". People saying "Well I have a PLD at level 20, so I'm going to need it" should not be a good reason to roll on a level 60 item if there's a 60+ PLD in the group who could use and benefit it upon acquiring it. And, in most every case of groups I've been in, it's been set up that way and, for the most part - at least in XI - it's gone fairly smoothly.
People do mostly tend to agree - even fi they'd like the item for themself - that it should go to the person who could most benefit from it at that time. You have your occasional person who thinks all loot should go to them, but they're the exception in my experience - again.. in XI.
I think it's important to have rules set out like that in situations where valuable drops are possible in a group of people. Otherwise, the sitaution quickly degrades into arguing and drama over "who should have gotten it", people stop paying attention to what they're doing because they're too busy raging, and it can potentially ruin the entire run.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Was just discussing this with one of the officers in our LS, and I understand what you're getting at and yes there should be exceptions made for players that may potentially show up late and/or are needed now as one of their other jobs cause their main position is already filled. They still come regardless for the good of the PT and LS so yeah I'd give them slack and should something drop for their main that they need then sure they can lot for it too along with the others in the PT that potentially need it.
This scenario I see more related to special events like in Dynamis, or Nyzul, Campain, etc or even for 3-5 star Guildleve that requires 6-15 members, but the standard XP PT or random adventure exploring with rather average possible gear drops I stand by what I said above...
Luck is neither fair nor unfair. Only people with a code of ethics and morals can act WRT fairness.
It is human nature that a small run of bad luck will make a much larger impression on a player than a run of good luck. Many people condition themselves into believing that good luck is 'deserved' while bad luck is 'unfair'.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Humans make luck fair or unfair. I don't see what's the difference here. If people condition themselves into believing bad luck is unfair, then that will make the system unfair, and thus even worse than where we started.
You still didn't tell me what do you consider "fair". Why do you link "fairness" to only humanity?