What does mmorpg's lack compared to single-players?

Inzra

Before I discovered the world of mmorpg's I really enjoyed playing some of the good singleplayer games. But after mmorpg's I've barely touched an offline game, except when I've been offline for longer periods.

When I look back now, it seems to me that even with the limited world a singleplayer game have, it still have alot of immersion that mmorpg's have yet to achieve. Although i.e. Age of Conan came pretty close to telling a story singleplayer-style, there is still something missing.

Of course community is quite an immersion breaker, even on rp realms. But it's also the way that the game is setup, what the players are allowed to and not.

I think singleplayers make the gameworld more realistic... but seeing some people go into flame mode when the words "realistic" + "game" is used... I guess I'll say "believable" instead....

I'd like to see an mmorpg that would have the immersion of a singleplayer, but could it be done without limiting the good features of mmorpg's?

Rockgod99

TOR is probably going to achieve this.

Sadly this will start a new singleplayer rpg focus in the genre.

Every dev and their mother will be making a TOR clone.

Blueharp

This is not a new subject.    But here's the thing...the single player games can let you be the center of all the attention, they can let you do anything they want to let you do.

It's not quite so fair in an MMO.

Besides the single player game?   It's still somebody else saying what you can do.

 

gotha

Think that is hard.  I can only seeing it working for a niche game of dedicated RPers.

MMOs are not only complicated tech wise but also game design wise.  They are a whole new animal.

 

1:  People want to get to the end game as fast as possible so story takes a back seat

2:  Random people can come a long any time and ruin your fun

3:  many more things i am too lazy to mention and too dumb to state

 

Lotro and AOC i would say are the best at telling a story in an MMO.

COH might be good also with the instancing.  It is the best grouping MMO currently.

Hyanmen

MMORPG's lack focus. 

And that's a huge difference right there.

MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Hyanmen

MMORPG's lack focus. 

And that's a huge difference right there.

Not sure what you mean. They do lack focus, but they need to generalize.

I guess I am asking if you think the lack of focus is good or bad.

shae

In my opinion one of the biggest downfalls to the current state of the overall MMO industry is the lack of variety and quality.

The single player game, whether that be on console or PC, is gifted with a very mainstream investment backing and production sequence which helps create quality, or better chance at said quality, as well as variety. By their nature a single player game has a very clear cut goal to success.

Produce a game, develope a game, distribute the game, sell the game. If the game cost an X amount, you need to sell x amount of boxes for the game to be profitable. The end and the production moves on to the next project.

The MMO suffers the bane of not quite having a clear cut business model nor a clear cut development sequence that will encourage quality and or variety and the natural side affect of both: profitability.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure that one model can subsequently fit the other. What we've seen in the past is a deluge of the Fantasy genre in the MMO space because the production and dev houses know this is a genre that will sell to a degree that investment in a project might be viable. Certainly we've seen, and are currently seeing, some playing around with Sci-Fi and that is probably a good begining branch off for the overall MMO genre to go towards but we're still seeing a lot less creativity that is funded and will create variety.

I think in the end as costs to produce a quality MMO reduce considerably we'll see some games that reach that scope of which many a quality single player game has attained but it's going to take some time and some big players in the market start to open their eyes to new and better ideas.

Sabiancym

You're not supposed to be the hero in mmos.  You're supposed to be part of a world and create your own story.

 

10,000 guys all saving the same princess is stupid.

 

 

It's sad that people these days need to be force fed a story instead of creating their own drama within the player population.

RendRegen

depending on the game, these may be some elements:

- living npcs - they have daily duties and such they go about, like in oblivion/fallout 3

- dialogue (mmos almost exclusively have only monologue)

dialogue is really important because it lets the player affect the npc and the world around him to a certain degree, or at least convey the perception that he does.

- gameplay focuses on progressing story rather than having bits of story as an excuse for progression/grinding.

eg. in bg you kill a boss because you need something from him to progress the story

in wow you get a small monologue of story so you have an excuse to kill the boss so your character can progress in xp

- it doesn't need to keep you in the game as long as possible to keep your subscription fee, so it doesn't massively recycle the same content

maskedweasel

Originally posted by Sabiancym

You're not supposed to be the hero in mmos.  You're supposed to be part of a world and create your own story.

 

10,000 guys all saving the same princess is stupid.

 

 

It's sad that people these days need to be force fed a story instead of creating their own drama within the player population.

Whereas this is the basic sandbox way of thinking, I love the idea of making your own story, but without an underlying purpose you have no reason to create a story.  The Elder Scrolls games are a great example of a system that had a good underlying story that you absolutely did not have to follow at all, but always had something to anchor you back into the world if you wanted it.

 

MMOs tend to carry a less story like feel as you bump your way through literally hundreds of similar quests with little else to do other than grind the rest of your levels. MMOs incorporate a lot of different features, but its rare to see one that allows for exploration and creating their own "drama" while still allowing for an underlying story with any sort of quality that makes you want to be part of it.

MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Sabiancym

You're not supposed to be the hero in mmos.  You're supposed to be part of a world and create your own story.

 

10,000 guys all saving the same princess is stupid.

 

 

It's sad that people these days need to be force fed a story instead of creating their own drama within the player population.

Very good observation.

Blueharp

Originally posted by Sabiancym

You're not supposed to be the hero in mmos.  You're supposed to be part of a world and create your own story.

10,000 guys all saving the same princess is stupid.

It's sad that people these days need to be force fed a story instead of creating their own drama within the player population.

If I want to create my own story I'll do it on my own terms, with a much smaller group than 10,000 people.   With that many?

I just don't expect the developers of the game to focus on me.  But...the game itself can still be fun.   There is something fun about doing something with lots of other people also doing it.

But unlike say a football game...I don't want to just sit in the stands cheering people on as the QB throws the ball.  I want to be playing myself.

That is why I'm playing an MMO.

If I can't live with the fact that many many other people are doing the same thing...then yeah, I shouldn't be playing an MMO.

Which is fair, can't expect all things to be good for all people.

Hyanmen

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Hyanmen

MMORPG's lack focus. 

And that's a huge difference right there.

Not sure what you mean. They do lack focus, but they need to generalize.

I guess I am asking if you think the lack of focus is good or bad.

Yes, they need to generalize. There's no way around this really (aside from making an online RPG, which is kinda a trade-off between the two). 

But really, both have their advantages. MMO's can't offer as concentrated and polished content as single player games can, but what they lack in that department they beat in sheer quantity and variety of options.

maskedweasel

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Hyanmen

MMORPG's lack focus. 

And that's a huge difference right there.

Not sure what you mean. They do lack focus, but they need to generalize.

I guess I am asking if you think the lack of focus is good or bad.

Yes, they need to generalize. There's no way around this really (aside from making an online RPG, which is kinda a trade-off between the two). 

But really, both have their advantages. MMO's can't offer as concentrated and polished content as single player games can, but what they lack in that department they beat in sheer quantity and variety of options.

"They beat in sheer quantity and variety of options"    <- expand on that

 

Do you mean character wise? Class wise?  Content wise?

MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Hyanmen

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Hyanmen

MMORPG's lack focus. 

And that's a huge difference right there.

Not sure what you mean. They do lack focus, but they need to generalize.

I guess I am asking if you think the lack of focus is good or bad.

Yes, they need to generalize. There's no way around this really (aside from making an online RPG, which is kinda a trade-off between the two). 

But really, both have their advantages. MMO's can't offer as concentrated and polished content as single player games can, but what they lack in that department they beat in sheer quantity and variety of options.

In theory, anyway. STO fans need not comment.

The big advantage to me is the fun of co-operative content. Of achieving great deeds together. When it happens, it's fantastic. The first couple of years, I had some great fun with friends and guild members, but we got divided by personal drama, level and gear mis-matches, and scheduling issues. PUGing blows beyond belief, and once WoW's x-realm LFG went in, the few good people you met in random groups were usually on another server, so you could never arrange to group with them again.

I am really souring on the whole genre. What was bad, is getting worse; and what was good, is getting scarce.

Jairoe03

Everything that an MMO has over single player is going to involve people. Competition, sharing a common goal, more balancing and support (albeit at a cost of a subscription usually) -- human beings are social animals. We thrive on this stuff, look at Facebook.

When it comes to any other aspect of a game, single player will beat MMO hands down. Better stories, more complex gameplay, more character development, more to explore, more depth overall. That's because these games can focus on the single player and they don't have to worry about catering to a multitude of people with varying degrees of interests and beliefs.

Josher

Originally posted by Sabiancym

You're not supposed to be the hero in mmos.  You're supposed to be part of a world and create your own story.

 

10,000 guys all saving the same princess is stupid.

 

 

It's sad that people these days need to be force fed a story instead of creating their own drama within the player population.

Thats fine in a sandbox with no story, purpose and overall point in playing besides just existing.  Most people prefer a story with goals, since they are playing a videogame afterall and not a life simulator.  I have no urge to create drama for other people nor do I want to be someone elses entertainment.  I won't play a game where others benefit at the expense of my misfortune, which is what sandboxes basically all boil down to. 

Single player games have VASTLY better gameplay.  The only thing MMOs add are the people and social dynamics. Otherwise theres not a thing any MMO does better than a single player game.  Graphics, combat systems, character building & story, the things MOST people look for in an RPG, are all superior in single player games.  

Amathe

What mmorpgs lack compared to single player games is something they used to have, and then mostly lost. The ability to wander and make discoveries.

 

I love just setting off in some direction where I have no idea where I am going or what I will find there. I enjoy undirected and unfocused play, full of surprise and suspense. In this age of progression by questing in level appropriate zones, aided by GPS and designated quest givers, it's harder to get that than it used to be.

 

But you can often find it in single player games.

Hyanmen

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

In theory, anyway. STO fans need not comment.

The big advantage to me is the fun of co-operative content. Of achieving great deeds together. When it happens, it's fantastic. The first couple of years, I had some great fun with friends and guild members, but we got divided by personal drama, level and gear mis-matches, and scheduling issues. PUGing blows beyond belief, and once WoW's x-realm LFG went in, the few good people you met in random groups were usually on another server, so you could never arrange to group with them again.

I am really souring on the whole genre. What was bad, is getting worse; and what was good, is getting scarce.

Which is why I don't think online RPG's are that bad. Phantasy Star Online would be the best example. Focus on the great advantage over single player games (cooperation), and do it well enough. 

I wouldn't mind it if developers tried to blend together the good sides of both genres. It'd be a jack of all trades instead of a "well yeah, here's a world for you to explore.. the gameplay sucks though" or "here's a good game, but you can only play it alone".

fnorgby

Originally posted by Sabiancym

It's sad that people these days need to be force fed a story instead of creating their own drama within the player population.

 

"Its sad that people need to read books other people wrote instead of writing their own". 

Seriously?

What makes a good SP is a good story.  I fully admit I'm not creative enough to come up with a story like System Shock, or an environment as chilling as Half Life 2 or FEAR.  That's why great SP games will always (for me) be the primary focus of my gaming dollar. 

fnorgby

Originally posted by Amathe

What mmorpgs lack compared to single player games is something they used to have, and then mostly lost. The ability to wander and make discoveries.

 

 

False.

Some of the best single player RPG games have been "on rails", and lots of current MMO games that SUCK have open worlds where you can technically go anywhere you want.

One of the big *problems* with Oblivion (for instance) was that they got so obsessed with openness that they made an abortion of character development (hint: this is an opinion, yes lots of people feel differently, but lots of people agree so lets not get into that argument).

I think you're letting your nostalgia for a handful of games you used to enjoy color your perception of the current state of gaming.  It's like saying "the music in the x0's was so great compared to today" -- you're forgetting that, just like today, 95% of music "back then" sucked sweaty, sweaty ass.

shae

Originally posted by Amathe

What mmorpgs lack compared to single player games is something they used to have, and then mostly lost. The ability to wander and make discoveries.

 I love just setting off in some direction where I have no idea where I am going or what I will find there. I enjoy undirected and unfocused play, full of surprise and suspense. In this age of progression by questing in level appropriate zones, aided by GPS and designated quest givers, it's harder to get that than it used to be.

 But you can often find it in single player games.

This is a really great point I hadn't thought about but now that I'm on it it's something that I sorely miss in today's MMO's.

I remember times in SWG where I had favorite spots on particular planets that I used to love just going to hang out, build a house (if possible) or just explore. The swamps on yavin come to mind; it seemed even after years of playing I was sitll finding something new.

Where I think Amathe's point holds up is that level/map design now seems to be built around levels and difficulty rather then part of the world in which you play. I suppose this makes sense in some games but it does seem to have taken away from exploration and random finds of interesting places.

Rajen

One of the aspects I think MMORPGs might be missing compared to single player games is the "get in and go aspect." What I mean by that is, in MMOs you usually have to do a bit of revving up and there are the inescapable time sinks that go along with MMOs in order to get to content.

 

That being said... ever since I started playing MMOs I have never been able to sit down and enjoy single-player games like I used to. Outside of a good RPG or a Final Fantasy title I just don't care for the single-player games anymore, and the RPGs aren't as enjoyable as they used to be for me anymore.

nariusseldon

Originally posted by Rockgod99

TOR is probably going to achieve this.

Sadly this will start a new singleplayer rpg focus in the genre.

Every dev and their mother will be making a TOR clone.

 

Why is this sad? A new direction for a new experience is a GOOD THING. There is nothing wrong to take what is good for SP and put it into MMORPGs.

That is now games evolve.

XKhallusX

I think its just funny how many MMOs are going for the streamlined, on rails follow the ONE path like some singleplayer RPGs. while some singleplayer RPGs are going for the open world experience, where you can wander and get immersed in the world even if you aren't doing the main story.

 

i guess im just tired of MMOs trying to become this singleplayer game with a chat box attached to it. but obviously I'm in the minority i mean look at WoW and how many people use an addon like "quest helper". if the game was anymore simplified blizzard could make it were you could play offline and no one would even notice.

 

 

I guess thats why i don't consider games like WoW, Warhammer, AOC and the upcoming SWTOR as "true" MMOs. yes i know they fit the acronym. But to me in order to be a true MMO there has to be more of an open world feeling and that they definitely don't have.

 

but thats also why i would like to see sub-genres for this genre.

 

Cephus404

Originally posted by Deleted User

This is not a new subject.    But here's the thing...the single player games can let you be the center of all the attention, they can let you do anything they want to let you do.

It's not quite so fair in an MMO.

Besides the single player game?   It's still somebody else saying what you can do.

 

That's a good way of looking at it.  In a single-player game, you are the focus of the game, you are the "hero" and what you do actually matters to the game world.  You change the world, just by your very existence within it.  In an MMO, that's never the case, it can't be.  There is no "hero" because everyone is doing the exact same things.  Slayed the dragon and saved the princess?  So has everyone else.  Who cares?  Plus the fact that because most single-player games are set up linearly, they can spend a lot of time and effort making the story as detailed as possible since every time you play the game, it's going to have the same general story.

The only thing an MMO has going for it over a single-player game is length and variety.  You finish a single-player game in a week or two.  You can play an MMO for years.