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Grindless MMORPG - Can/Does it exist?
kevin_123
Member Posts: 52
People constantly complain about grind in MMORPG but is there a game that doesn't have any grind? I can't see it working. You have to reward progression whilst not letting the amount of progression determine the ability of the character.
The only solution I can think of is that progression is merely cosmetic or doesn't effect the character, this however means that people would spend loads of time playing and they wouldn't really be getting anything from it.
All these people complaining about grind, lets hear your solution! 
Comments
The antidote to grinding is bringing the focus back to the journey through the levels, as opposed to leveling being something you race through to get to the "good stuff." You do that with a lot of TLC on the leveling mechanism, and not by end loading the game with all the things that are actually fun to do. It also helps if you incentivize small group play so that people aren't "grinding" alone, as they so often do these days.
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Maybe. Consider this, though. I discover a new dungeon, which looks really cool, and I want to see what's at the end. There are thousands of mobs in my way that I must fight through. If I have a greater goal, it's not likely I'll consider killing those mobs a "grind." While it is repetitive, I'm not really focused on killing them. I'm focused on getting to the end.
The journey, if it's repetitive, is made more bearable by having an ultimate goal; i.e., end game.
When a quest says kill X number of mobs and it has a damn counter on your screen, then it feels like grinding because your only objective is the death of those mobs, not something greater. If you meant that each chunk of the leveling process - the "journey" - should be made less repetitive, then I agree.
I personally think the answer is variety of activity, because the less time you spend doing one particular thing, the longer it takes for you to become bored with it. Non-combat or social activities especially have been overlooked in MMOs, and they could contribute a lot to reducing the feeling of grind. The activities themselves can't be boring and repetitive, though, or you end up with a situation like RuneScape. While it has something like 27 skills to train, the training itself is very repetitive and daunting at higher levels (i.e. cutting down thousands of trees to get from 89 to 90 Woodcutting). Jagex tries to offset this with mini-games and skill exp through quest rewards, but the core of training is still reptitive action - grind.
Most games, even non-MMO titles, have some sort of character progression. It's a powerful draw and a great way to keep the player's interest. The problem is any time you have progression, you need a way to advance it, and that's where the grind comes in.
Games with less grind let characters max out quicker, which will bore the player faster if there isn't content to keep them challenged. Games with too much grind frustrate the player, forcing them to do the same content repeatedly, ultimately boring them just as fast. Even if a game hits a magical spot of not too much, not too little grind, players will still max out eventually and start repeating the same content at end-game. In these situations games have historically abandoned one type of grind (the level grind) in favor of a new type (the raid grind), but it doesn't remove the grind aspect. As long as you can progress, there'll be something to grind.
Honestly I don't see any way to remove the grind, unless player progression is removed entirely. That would mean a game with no levels, no skill-ups, no item ranks, no territory and no pvp ranks. Nothing. We already had games of these types, they were very old school FPS titles (even newer FPS titles usually have some character development) and they pretty much started to decline as much as a decade ago.
They're not coming back.
In my experience, when most people say "the grind sucks" they're not talking about removing the progression, and subsequently the grind, they're just referring to the fact that the grind does not scale well with the content. Conversely when they say "the game's too easy" they typically mean the reverse. These games could have changed the progression curve to some degree to attract more players, but the change could just have easily turned off players as well. Boredom is a subjective and fickle beast and only the truly foolish think it can be tamed for the good of all.
The morning sun has vanquished the horrible night.
Obviously its not an mmo, but I do like to log in and play Battlefield 2 or 2142 from time to time. Although there is a very limited form of progression in those games in the form of unlocks, the number of points now required for me to unlock any of the later ones means that I would have to play constantly for weeks or months to get them so its not something I really pay any attention to any more. Even when I first started playing the progression was nothing more than a bonus. The enjoyment of playing the game came first. It was easy to get sucked into it for hours as the gameplay is fun and involving. I am constantly interacting with the other players and each game is different because of the human involvement.
I cant really say the same about mmos. If the progression is removed from mmos then you arent really left with very much as the gameplay is so boring and repetitive. Very little thought is required with these games as the human element is largely removed from them due to all the players competing and interacting with simplistic computer AI rather than each other. Teaming up with other players can make it more fun but thats not because the gameplay becomes more stimulating. Its because the boring shitty content flies by faster.
MMOs need to stop feeding players stories and linear content that never changes, where the only goals the players have is to "get to the next bit". If new interesting things can happen in the so-called "gameworld" as a result of each others actions then it would be a lot more interesting. Currently in most mmos the only things players can have any impact on is the progression of their own characters. There isnt anything else to do except plough through a stupid story and watch numbers increase on their character sheets. It's a load of shit! Players effecting each others gaming experience in an online game?! Gasp! What a shocking idea! lol. Fortunately some upcoming games are focusing on using dynamic content where players can properly effect the gameworld so hopefully mmos will move away from being boring grindfests and might actually become something interesting for a change.
Well I'm not completely against grinding, it is okay but it has to be entertaining. I enjoy killing over and over sometimes, it is good practice and it's there to perfect and learn your abilities. If I had to make some suggestions for limiting grinds they would be;
Level Grinding
* A number and time limit to levels. The starting level could be an experience number and 30 mins character age, each level would raise these numbers. The extra experience could be an achievement like "fluff" reward or stat increase encouraging players to play more but giving them the option to play less. Quest rewards and other elements could lower the age requirement to level but a limit should be set.
* A main storyline driven quest. Each time you complete a quest in the line you level or learn a new ability but you have the option to trail off to complete other quests for money, achievements or stat increases (example; taking stats off gear but putting those stats as rewards from off line quests).
Kill Grinding
* Make the beasts hard to find and kill. You would rarely walk out into a field and see a bunch of bears paroling a certain area. Give some experience for going out and hunting and more experience for killing them. I would like to see tracking in game such as foot prints or tree markings. If you are not on the quest to kill them, you get no experience.
* Camps should be large and hard to solo. Patrols walk to and from these camps and you would have to ambush them. Instead of kill 10 evil dudes, you would have to ambush a hunting party or traveling merchants. Camps would be reserved for group players and would take a long time to respawn.
* Give experience from quests only. Give other rewards instead of experience; achievements, money, gear, ability improvements. Even if you have different bars for level experience and ability experience, with the ability xp total limited to the level.
Craft Grinding
* Everything you craft increases the quality of your products with the chance of a "critical craft". By that I mean you make one sword that does 50 damage, the next one does 52 damage but then you make one that does 64 damage yet if you make another it would do 56 damage. The base quality of your crafts are governed by your level but looks are determined by your crafting skill. From higher crafting skill you could increase the "critical craft", stat or augment bonus.
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People posted here fast! Some good suggestions from what I read. I think people have a point though, players want to get to peak level as fast as possible (I know I do). It will be a while before the MMO genre changes from that and I hope in the future we'll see slower paced games that offer a fun ride throughout all the levels. There is no reason why there shouldn't be lower level raids, pvp matches and other stuff to do.
What is a grind? Here are some definitions:
labor: work hard; "She was digging away at her math homework"; "Lexicographers drudge all day long"
drudgery: hard monotonous routine work
So it would depend on the person. If you knit sweaters for hobby, odds are you wouldn't mind grinding. If you suffer from ADD, grinding would get tedious real quick.
Grinding in an MMO to me means killing hundreds if not thousands of mobs, usually for reputation with some faction that sells gear. I don't think I'd like grinding for levels much.
If it takes an hour, I don't mind a grind.
If the grind takes more than an hour, it gets tedious. If I can split the grind up and do it over a week's time like an hour a day I don't mind as much.
Certainly you can have a game with no grinding, just lots and lots of content that awards experience. You can hit max level in WoW without a grind.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
In my opinion 'grind' is perceived by an individual when they no longer finds a repetitive activity fun, so it is not possible to eliminate it.
"If all you can say is... "It's awful, it's not innovative, it's ugly, it's blah.." Then you're an unimaginative and unpolished excuse for human life" -eburn
If you're having fun doing what you're doing, the grind feeling tends to be passive. So, if the game is enjoyable enough to keep your interest high, then you really don't think about the grind. Although, a game could be less grindy if the progression was sped up considerably but would that really justify making it fun? I think a vast amount of dynamic and engaging fun content is key for a game. Just my thoughts...
The secret world is suppose to have less grind afaik
And myst online
I think the whole concept of grind comes from the gameplay lacking in depth and variety. Most popular single player RPGs have extremely engaging gameplay and epic involved storylines. The entire game usually only last for about 30 hours or so and we rarely find ourselves bored or feeling like we're just 'grinding' away at anything. Contrast that to MMOs, where you usually have to invest FAR more than 30 hours of time with much less enjoyable gameplay and extremely little emphasis on story and its not hard to see why many see it as a grind. They suffer through it, in most cases, simply because they are trying to reach the point at the end-game where the game will be more fun.
No. The solution is to make grinding fun, such as it can be in many single player rpgs.
A mmo is not a mmo without a grind, no matter what form that grind may take. The key is properly disguising the grind and providing variety to lessen the impact of the grind. I firmly believe that the streamlined combat focus of today's mmos highlight the grind rather than masking it, thus making players notice and complain about the grind far more than in earlier generation mmos. It's the VARIETY that masks the grind so well, despite the fact that in a game with variety you're simultaneously working on several rather long grinds at once.
I am no psychologist, so take my words with the smallest grain of salt, but I believe that it is clear that the human race needs variety. Without variety people become bored. Thus it should not be surprising that people become bored raiding every moment of gametime, or killing an endless array of mobs for faction. Providing that crafting grind and that socializing grind gives people a fresh perspective when coming back to the killing grind. Without those perspectives, the killing grind becomes mind numbing to all but the most ocd people on the planet. That's why a game like wow has such huge turnover. People don't stay for long because they get bored. It's pretty simple stuff in my book.
I for one can get bored with almost anything.
But no you can't make a MMO without grind because MMOs require companies to run servers for the players which requires players to pay a fee or spend money in an item shop, either way there is plenty of insentive to prolong the player's playtime as long as possible.
To not have grind you would have to have a different setup, one without fees or itemshops so that developers do not have the incentive to prolong playtime. But even then grind is so subjective that the players could feel like they are grinding even without it purposely being put into the game. I thought Oblivion was one giant grind for example, GTA is a big grind, etc. So there is no rule of thumb how to not have grind other than keep it fun the entire time, which is as about as useful as saying make a good game.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
The only grindless game is Second Life, afaik, but arguably you can be grinding some kind of in-game currency in it.
By all means such a game doesn't exist, because everything = grind, and players are very close to considering any kind of travel time a grind. Soon you will have to offer instant teleporting to any place on the map because walking 5 steps is too much to ask for. Then the process of opening a window and clicking a location will become a grind, so they will have to make it a hotkey that reads your mind on where you want to go.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Puzzel Pirates was a really good grindless MMO back in the day. Too bad that format never caught on.
I never played it, but if there was any kind of reward structure for completing mini-games - then yes there was grind. Whether people caught onto it or not is the question. I personally love Free Realms' resource gathering mini-games, and have yet to really see it as a grind since I enjoy the play of it so much.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
If anyone has read any sort of news about what goes on in Second Life you can just imagine what kind of "grinding" goes on in that world...
All games have repetition (grinding). It's just a question of how long the game continues to reward the player for doing the repetitive activity.
Most normal (non-MMO) games end after 40 hours, and thus have very little "grind" feeling. An MMO which forcibly ended in the same way could also have less grind, but at that point you're not going to retain customers for huge lengths of time (which is a crucial part of how MMORPGs survive monetarily.)
If we assume the MMORPG is trying to retain players for 500+ hours (which seems reasonble) then you cannot eliminate grinding, but you can reduce the visibility of it by having lots of varied content to consume, and by amping up the dynamicism of said content.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Puzzle Pirates is a completely grindless game as players are rewarded how well they do at the puzzles and mini-games rather than how many times they grind out the mini games. For example someone who is naturally good at poker could really make a lot money quickly and thus buy their way to the top in a matter of days.
If you don't mind the grind it's not a grind.
A grind is something you don't want to do. A grind is tedious, boring work.
You can level 1-80 in WoW without grinding. At least I can. Grinding is relative to the player.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I found myself not caring about levels or noticing XP progression in Fallen Earth. . so to me there was zero grind there. Someone suggested playing WoW with the XP bar turned off in the UI options. . I think that is a great idea.
SWG actually. . pre NGE etc. No Grid there for me. .
In the end it is what you make it. Also. . don't overplay games. I am competative by nature so I had a hard time letting go of keeping up with everyone else. . after I did that games were fun again. Find a good group of people to play with and enjoy.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
I share this sentiment.
And as for a grindless game, I stick to Planetside all day. If you were BR 1 or BR 25, you we're still doing pretty much the same thing, killing the smurfs and barnies (YEA TR!).
I don't mind grinding in a game if there are other things I find enjoyable in the game. It is when the game only offers me the ability to pve, pvp, or basic crafts that make me hate "grinding" or the "progression.". There must be other options I find enjoyable to offset the "grind" of some task in the game.
Example: I want to "grind" pvp to get better gear. Ok. I like better gear, and the pvp can be fun. Though, there must be something I can do during the waiting for pvp or something fun to do when I don't want to pvp. That way the grinding of pvp for gear doesn't seem that bad.
Grind is not a byproduct of progression, instead, it comes from game mechanics. I'm going to talk about combat specifically here. I think there are two types of grind, one for PvE games and one for PvP games. In PvE games, grind can be considered monotonous repetition of getting to a point where you can complete content that is actually challenging with the rest of the playerbase. In PvP games, it's getting to a point where you can actually compete with a majority players.
I've played a game that lacked any grind, and ironically it had such a huge amount of progression that it took about 3 years before anyone reached the max level. The game was Asheron's Call. Players with huge level differences could play together and it was quite viable. How did they do this? It's pretty simple. Progression gets you diminishing returns. Everything is on a curve, you get a bulk of the gains to your skills early on, and as it increases, it gets slower and slower. When killing things you received experience that could be spent on the skills your character had to make them more effective. For reference, in the game your first 1 billion (1,000,000,000) experience points got you 190 points into a skill. The second billion got you 9 more points, and the last 2 billion got you 10 points. For an even better perspective, 1 million experience got you your first 100 points.
So basically, players got themselves to a point where they were on an even playing field PvE and PvP wise early on. The difference was negligible, all players had a long term goal to look forward to, but grind was not necessary. It was basically a system where in WoW terms, a level 30 player would be able to contribute to a quest with a level 60 player. This negates the necessity to forcefully grind beyond a certain point.
Other than that, I think the issue is the combat mechanics themselves. For me at least, I don't consider something that's easy to be entertaining, and for something to be easy or hard, the player has to have the ability to greatly affect the outcome of a combat encounter. I think the best manifestation of this is with twitch combat where players have great capacity to dodge attacks, or to aim their attacks, or a mix of both. With this you can make encounters more dangerous by boosting the damage received on a successful hit making each fight significantly more interesting and exciting (and thus not boring). Obviously there has to be a death penalty as well, or you won't care about dieing.
That's pretty much it, I've played a lot of MMORPGs, and linear progression is definitely not the way to go. It just leaves players behind and creates a grind and a barrier to entry for new players.