9 hours to sit-grind a aa point- no thanks to that, or the corpse runs. But the old-school EQ rpg, and appealling fantasy environments, mobs and items- sure.
This thread started off with a good question and then just rapidly declined. The last few pages I read make me sick.
I don't know why people are so deadset on dividing up the MMO population into groups. People who play WoW aren't any different from you or me, they are just gamers. I keep reading about the 'casual market' and the 'hardcore market' and the 'old school market' when really the MMO target market is anyone who enjoys MMOs. Well over half of the last WoW guild I was in when I still played would tell you when asked why they were playing WoW "because there's nothing better out there." I'd put money on that still being the case.
You make a great game and you will attract the majority of the market. This is what UO did, and WoW did, and DAoC did, and any MMO that's ever had high subscription numbers.
You know why EQ2 and Darkfall and Mortal Online, AoC, WAR etc failed? Because they were not good games. Not because they were 'an old school pvp' game or a 'solo only' game or whatever other reason you can come up with. They had instability problems, massive bugs, horrible interfaces, not enough content, wow clones, they were half-assed, they were not good games. Sure, they can progress to become good games eventually and a lot of them have but that's not going to fix your subscriptions. EQ2 for one has progressed light years ahead of what it was when it came out, but it never recovered all those lost players. Your day to build a player base is launch day, first impressions count for everything.
You know how WoW attracted 12 million players? Regardless of what people like to say they didn't have 12 million warcraft/diablo fans sitting in the wings just waiting for the game to come out so they could make it the most popular MMO ever. They made a better game than anything else that was currently out there. Then they had 500k people log in and see that and word of mouth did the rest. They told their friends, they told their co-workers, they went back to whatever game they were playing before WoW and told their guilds and everyone they knew. Does it appeal to everyone? Of course not, but that doesn't mean when it came out it wasn't head and shoulders above everything that existed. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
I'm all for bringing back some old school ideas in a new game, just do it well. That's the downfall of Darkfall and Mortal Online. They didn't do it well, they had good ideas but really really shitty excecution. Look how popular EVE is, and that's with working around the fact their combat system doesn't exactly appeal to the majority and a 90 degree learning curve. Think how popular it would be if it was more accessible.
Quit cloning WoW, no one wants to play a clone of a game that already exists because if they did they would just play that game. If I login to your game and the first thing I see is a ( ! ) above some guy that wants me to go kill 12 boars, i'm logging off. Been there, done that, no thank you.
My perfect game would be something like:
- Skill based system UO style, no levels. You develop your character by playing how you wish to play. There has to be a skill cap or everyone winds up having the exact same things.
- World housing, non instanced.
- No instances whatever. Instances kill immersion, communities, and the feeling of being part of a larger than life world.
- The ability to solo and progress your character all the way to end-game, with a system setup to make grouping far better. Possibly some type of points or effect you receive while grouping that is very desirable. This makes it so you can always progress anytime you login, but if you have the time and chance to get a group you will never pass it up.
- Meaningful world PvP, as I said no instances above I mean it here as well. No instanced PvP.
- Some form of notoriety system like UO used to have but massively improved to allow for FFA PvP but not griefing of lower players. IE I am level 50, I can attack and kill a level 50 and receive no penalty. I cannot kill a level 50 of my own guild/faction/whatever or a lowbie player without some form of notoriety detriment. If you're a douche it should be publicy known. No one cares about their reputation anymore because they have no reason to. Give them a reason.
- Death penalty but no required corpse runs. It should hurt, but it should not be game-breaking.
- Crafting driven economy. Let a goblin drop a sword that's fine, let a crafter be able to craft the same sword except slightly better. [end-game dragon #20838] does not drop a magic breastplate of fortifying x44, it drops scales that a skilled crafter can turn into said breastplate. Do not make the scales or the crafted item NO TRADE. Crafting has over the years been morphed into nothing but a mini-game of very little worth in current MMOs.
- Epic quest chains. I to this day remember the day I finally got my epic fists on my monk in EQ1. No quest in any game i've played since then has been able to match the feel of it.
I really started out with one thought in my mind and ended up rambling.. but oh well. If someone gets something out of my post then it's served it's purpose. I am so burned out on the sewage this genre (my genre) has become, if someone makes a good game with even half of the things I listed above I would probably buy a life sub.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
I think the problem is not just in MMO's, no game really feels the same now as back in the day.
Oh I can list lots of current non-mmo games I like, such as Oblivion, NWN2, Portal etc etc etc. Unfortunately, the mmogs have become like those, so why pay like $180/yr to play just one mmo that is like a solo off-line game for the most part? $200/yr is a lot for a chat room...
The problem is, no single-player game lasts a year. You're lucky if it lasts 2 weeks. So instead of spending $230 a year on an MMO ($50 + $180), you'd be spending $1200 ($50x24) on single-player games, assuming you could find that many you wanted to play at all.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
Probably FFXI or EQ2.
EQ2 has been made way too easy last time i tried it again. And Vanguard definately has EQ2 beat.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
What, you ain’t sick cuz we all not the same, and likes the greatest game eveh made, WoW?? lol j/k (poster before you came off like bait)
PvP or PvE based? Someone mentioned one game, swore by it, but it’s more PvP based. As the old games had their systems changed dramatically, and games like EQ2 were built around solo play like WoW, I don’t know of a pure mmorpg experience at this time. Maybe EVE? I’m not sure, it crashed and bugged on me a lot when I ran the demo, but that was a few days after a major content update, and it’s PvP based too.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
games like EQ2 were built around solo play like WoW
I don't believe you've played EQ2 if you think it's a solo game.
I think the problem is not just in MMO's, no game really feels the same now as back in the day.
Oh I can list lots of current non-mmo games I like, such as Oblivion, NWN2, Portal etc etc etc. Unfortunately, the mmogs have become like those, so why pay like $180/yr to play just one mmo that is like a solo off-line game for the most part? $200/yr is a lot for a chat room...
The problem is, no single-player game lasts a year. You're lucky if it lasts 2 weeks. So instead of spending $230 a year on an MMO ($50 + $180), you'd be spending $1200 ($50x24) on single-player games, assuming you could find that many you wanted to play at all.
Oh I understand that, I've given that argument in favor of mmorpg's in past years. I could easily spend $50/mo on stand-alone games, and did for a time. The two I mentioned are very expandable, content to last a very long time. I played Morrowind for years, but retired Oblivion after about six months. Still play NWN2 since about release, have all but the last expansion. Portal is short though, but I still have it installed and play it a couple times a month. However, mmo's can be a waste now too. You can run the demo, which gives you enough time to experiance the newbie areas... which are usually well designed to get you to spend $150 on box and expansions, then you learn what the games are really about and you realize you just wasted you cash on another clone.
Originally posted by nfefx
Originally posted by Daywolf
Originally posted by iplay4fun87
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
games like EQ2 were built around solo play like WoW
I don't believe you've played EQ2 if you think it's a solo game.
Sure did, I have an EQ2 account like most every long term EQ subscriber made when it was released. EQ five years, EQ2 four months. You could opt to group, but really was not needed, and everything was instanced into the ground.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
What, you ain’t sick cuz we all not the same, and likes the greatest game eveh made, WoW?? lol j/k (poster before you came off like bait)
PvP or PvE based? Someone mentioned one game, swore by it, but it’s more PvP based. As the old games had their systems changed dramatically, and games like EQ2 were built around solo play like WoW, I don’t know of a pure mmorpg experience at this time. Maybe EVE? I’m not sure, it crashed and bugged on me a lot when I ran the demo, but that was a few days after a major content update, and it’s PvP based too.
I'll play PvE or PvP but im speaking more of the PvE part of the game. Only reason i stayed with WoW was for its pvp element in the game. Although sometimes it got annoying when im trying to Focus on the PvE part and i keep getting ganked. Sucks when the Horde was Outnumring the Alliance.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
What, you ain’t sick cuz we all not the same, and likes the greatest game eveh made, WoW?? lol j/k (poster before you came off like bait)
PvP or PvE based? Someone mentioned one game, swore by it, but it’s more PvP based. As the old games had their systems changed dramatically, and games like EQ2 were built around solo play like WoW, I don’t know of a pure mmorpg experience at this time. Maybe EVE? I’m not sure, it crashed and bugged on me a lot when I ran the demo, but that was a few days after a major content update, and it’s PvP based too.
I'll play PvE or PvP but im speaking more of the PvE part of the game. Only reason i stayed with WoW was for its pvp element in the game. Although sometimes it got annoying when im trying to Focus on the PvE part and i keep getting ganked. Sucks when the Horde was Outnumring the Alliance.
Then maybe Vanguard as was mentioned 8 or so pages back, is more PvP based. However, with it's lousy release, the polish since then has not yet generated may subscribers as of yet. May want to read back on the discussion.
I would like to see Mythic redo Dark Age of Camelot, classic version. Updated graphics and models, but basically old school 3 realm rvr as end game. There was a certain realm pride that brought out some of the best rvr i have ever encountered. If Dark Age of Camelot 2 ( classic version pre Trials of Atlantis) would be published, i'd play it again for sure.
I don't know if this would be considered old school, but i enjoyed the Anarchy Online mission system.
Shadowbane was a great old school game, too many tech issues, but basically was fun.
Maybe i'm the only one, but i enjoyed Asherons Call 2, was fun for me.
Recently went back to Guild wars, don't know if thats considered old school, but it still brings me enjoyment. Gear is more for looks then for stats, i like that its more skill dependent then gear dependent. Happy to have not uninstalled it, as i have so many other games. Bonus, free to play, and not a money sucking item shop. Although it has an item shop, sorta.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
FFXI is probably the closest that you'll get to that EQ1 feeling now days, I dare say even more than EQ1 (current). FFXI is the only game I can think of that didn't completely sell-out it's oldschool style, they did add a mentor system though to make finding / creating groups easier as obviously it is a somewhat top-heavy game now, 7 years in.
It definitely gives the epic feel though, and isn't a quest grinder like most modern MMOs.
I would like to see Mythic redo Dark Age of Camelot, classic version. Updated graphics and models, but basically old school 3 realm rvr as end game. There was a certain realm pride that brought out some of the best rvr i have ever encountered. If Dark Age of Camelot 2 ( classic version pre Trials of Atlantis) would be published, i'd play it again for sure.
They were doing just that, but then WAR started going under and EA made them drop Dark Age of Camelot Origins, to fix that sinking ship. Then EA basically dissolved Mythic and put whats left on SWTOR.
Origins may still be under way, just not any time soon.
Very good thread, as long as I could bare to read it(will come back and read more later). I somehow feel that some people on both sides of the fence has been indoctrinated to what a good MMOs is. Most go by what has been, and what is - not what should be of totally renewed approach to a repetitive genre.
Surely there are good aspects in each camp, but how many would actually play something that is the best of both camps without anything new?
I am an old paper and pencil Dungeon and Dragons player, and truth be old, I am sick and tired of offsprings of the same formula - over and over in a new dress. I am looking for new ideas. New approaches, not offsprings of already done, and redone things of the past. Why must there be dungeons? Why must there be bosses. Why levels? Why new skills for each level. Why two or three factions? Well, I know some of the answers, but surely people should be asking themselves just that to move forward.
I am not trying to put anyone down. I think many have very good arguments, but as I see it, everything spawns of the wellknown - not revolution, not even evolution.
One thing I do know, that I appreciate in all roleplaying games, is immersion. Something that great storytelling can provide, but can't be on its own.
Sorry, if I contributed so very little, but If I knew the answer to my own questions, I would be making the next-gen MMO, which I am not.
When the enemy is driven back, we have failed, and when he is cut off, encircled and dispersed, we have succeeded.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
I've never played the FF games so I have no opinion on those, but I would say the closest to old EQ would be Vanguard and even that is wayyyyy off.
Considering other genres of entertainment, like movies, we`ll probably see a shift sometime in the future as this phase gets old even to the newer crowds. This 'phase' being the instant gratification oriented mentality we are seeing in our mmos.
How further can it really go? Unlike movies, mmos are still rather new to the scene so not everyone has seen the circular trajectories filmakers take to bring us remakes of sometime rather obscure yet in existence titles.
Games will be the same, given time, or an event that will shift our perception of what the effort:reward ratio really can bring us.
All I know is that while I want an old school mmo to return, I don't necessarily want the same old mob/camp grinding of old. Immersion can be achieved without huge grinds, or thousands of quests. We just need 1 company to make it and make it solidly enjoyable, and we'll be there. Most likely to stay like the old EQ.
I doubt it will beat Farmville or the 'elephant in the room' but there'll be a world, a niche for those of us that enjoy the likeness of what we once loved, created, and lived in with such fond memories that we'll happily forge new ones without care of what others say.
I, for one, am awaiting for such a game. I will wait for it until I either die or cannot play anymore for the loss of the usage of my hands. I have no debate to this other than i have faith and it is rock solid. Trolls and flamers can spew forth all of your venemous, condescending, hateful, or misguided comments. It will never dissuade me.
I don't see why old school MMOs couldn't come back but everyone has different tastes in MMOs. Currently, there has been a trend for companies to offer flashy in game items at the expense of your wallet in addtion to subscription fees. Admittedly a company is going to be in it for a money but a company that lets numbers and the money dictate how their game is made and run is going to end up with a very shallow game or eventually it will turn shallow.
I think the best type of MMO is one that makes you feel that you are there in an open world whether is be a fantasy or sci fi setting. You should simply be able to walk in a direction and encounter stuff along your path that shapes your future. Although not a MMO, I feel that certain aspects of single player games such as Fallout could work well in a MMO. It matters not if you are good or evil and every choice has the potential to both benefit and harm you.
A MMO should all be about customization and not just your avatar picture. I dislike the entire concept of levels and tiers and skill trees which only make people grind real fast to the top and then they are bored out of their mind. How good you are at a sword, gun, bow, etc., should be determine by how often you use it and special training you might seek to perfect a particular combat style. Everyone seems to brag how they got the flashy +1000 sword of ultra uberness but to me it is much cooler if you took out the boss with a rusty screwdriver because you were that good. Not sure if everyone has seen Chronicles of Riddick movie but to those who have..... Remember the I'll kill you with my tea cup scene?
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that today everything is about the grind and having the most flashiest armor and weapon which most likely will be something bought these days instead of earned. A MMO should be a story about your character and events that happen to that character relate to the choices you make in the game. Groups have their part too which is why it is important to have factions that can control politics, resources, and territory. Decisions that you make as part of a group can effect your standing. Did you help some knights defeat some foul evil creature or did you help some bandits raze a village to the ground? Unfortunately, sandbox MMOs are rare these days and only a few have decided to dedicate themselves to the game and player base instead of the almighty dollar. I think EVE might be a good example of this and I'm not saying its a game for everyone but they do seem to care about their game. It would be nice to see some Fantasy MMOs and SCIFI MMOs dedicate themselves to the game. Maybe Guildwars 2 will come through although I would like to see some games put out with less instancing. I suppose many of us will have to wait for one of these companies to step outside of the box.
I don't think it's so much about moving backwards or forward, or innovation vs. stagnation, but that there was a fork in the road along the way. Then after a moment, it turned into a spoon... where it all folded in on itself... and then we were all spoonfed baby food while having our whittle hands held
My first MMO was EQ. When I think of old school I think of EQ features. I loved EQ at the time and the things I loved was:
* the excitement and sense of adventure
* the community. Family friendly chat, with no spam, no swearing and no trolls. The friends who left the game.
* developing your toon.
* a user interface that did not lock up during lag spikes, because of latency or simply because the server failed to action or respond to a particular GUI request. Many modern gui's seem to be too tightly tied to the server and often lock all functions while waiting for a response from the server for a single action such as using an ability or looting.
In retrospect, the old school features I do not miss include:
* huge death penalties when 90% of deaths were due to disconnects and lag.
* the age of dial up internet
* huge amount of down time between encounters waiting for mana and health to regenerate
* kill stealing. Whoever landed the killing blow got credit for the kill.
* mob trains.
* camping a location for hours waiting for a rare mob to spawn.
* slow travel. Remember the 20 minute boat trips?
* good loot only available from raids (EQ early days)
* forced grouping to obtain reasonable items
* no bazaar (auction house)
* forced to go to Greater Faydark (elf zone) to buy and sell. This ruined my sense of role play as I was not an elf
* time wasted trying to buy and sell that could have been spent fighting or exploring
* contested spawns
* time wasted when multiple guilds turn up for a boss encounter at the same time and the massive lag this caused
* being forced to two box ( pay and run 2 accounts simultaneously) because many classes could not solo. This was more common for off-peak players because their was just not enough players at USA off-peak times.
* very few quests and most quests gave very little xp.
* the only way to level was to (grind) kill lots of monsters that gave reasonable experience.
* hard to find quests unless you used the cheats on the web. Many quest NPC's would not talk to you unless you had high enough faction in whatever faction group the NPC happened to belong, met the level requirements and had completed any pre-requisite quests. If you want to truly explore the world and not use the online cheats, you really needed to check with NPC's regularly to check whether they would now talk to you. There were hundreds of NPC's widely spaced in different zones and cites, so it was not practical to check with each one individually every time you gained a level, improved your faction level or completed a quest elsewhere.
* if you were not a class that could bind (set your spawn point after death), you could spend ages looking for someone to bind you in a particular area
Some of the features that I liked in later EQ expansions or subsequent MMO's include:
encounter locking. This results in no mob trains and other players cannot interfere once the encounter has started
boosted mana (power) and health regeneration between encounters, so less downtime.
swift travel including mounts and teleports
encounters that were you own adventure for you or your group (instances)
auction houses. I can adventure while my items are on sale.
locked encounters in open world to prevent kill stealing and training mobs onto other players
quests that added to the adventure and gave significant rewards and experience
no harsh death penalties due to disconnects or lag spikes
Quest logs so that I do not have to resort to pen and paper records while playing
An easy way of identifying NPC's who are currently ready to give a quest.
the ability to play solo, group or raid depending on individual preference.
Lord of the Rings Online (LoTRO) is the last game to give me that old EQ sense of adventure. LoTRO has features that many would not consider old school.
Boat travel was awesome in EQ, a lot of people were upset when they quit running. Even WoW has some slow travel... like with the subway (though that no one there uses as it's pointless). It was great in EQ when you had to take an actual journey to get to another place, made the game world feel more cohesive, sometimes even challenging so you traveled in a group. There were faster modes of travel though, like the spires or Drui's, good if you had to go far or recover a corpse. SWG had slow travel too, a lot of people would meet up at the starport. I think an old school game today needs it, it builds community.
I liked EQ because of the challenge of it and the community. It was the best feeling in the world when you put an awesome group together. I would love to see good gear acquired by tough quests again. Like traveling to four different areas and needing to get a different item from a different mob. I wouldn't miss waiting 20 hours straight for a spawn though. It was exciting at the time, and it was worth the reward, but unnecessary.
If your sign up date is true and you haven't been here until just recently there are many people on this site who would like to see some of the older features/mechanics from the "old games" get an update and make a comeback. Topics like this get started all the time here. Be warned there are a few very vocal people who will most likely jump in this thread and basically tell you those traits will never be in a game again, that you need to "get over it", and take other very, very thinly veiled shots at you for even suggesting it. They basically love the current crop and don't there to be any other choice of gameplay is what I've come to believe. Oh, they'll try to tell you about "numbers" and "what makes a success and what is "niche" and what is not" but they have no more hard factual data than anyone else (including us that say there is a market).
So, just ignore them and keep on being vocal about an appreciation for that type of play. Afterall, according to the aformentioned people only me and like 10 other people on this board were the only ones who liked those games, flaws and all. If you are truly new to the site, well, one less straw in their theory, lol.
No there isnt anyway to know about a present full feature MMO sandbox....but those of ya that keep spouting on about games like SWG sure indeed were the niche before WOW.
The biggest sandbox to date is EVE with ~350k....and it still doesnt top EQ1 sub numbers from 04 era which stood at 450k.
You guys belong to the virtual reality/sims clubs of America....which wasnt popular among us longtime video-gamers back then. Well before MMOs went mainstream, bringing in a mulititude of newer gamers which joined in the WOW phase.
I am with ya guys when you wanna bring back more open world stuff. The second it starts getting into the alternate reality/virtual economic simulaters you guys lose support. Instead of accepting the lack of appeal to others, and supporting the games that do cater to your style.....you guys hang out here whining daily.
As I have said before....that is a nerd's nerd style of gaming. It just doesnt belong in a AAA title if Devs are looking to attract the masses. It boils down to ROLE play vs ROLL play. As sub numbers have shown thru the yrs, the far majority are interested in ROLL play. Which was true even before WoW launched.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Comments
9 hours to sit-grind a aa point- no thanks to that, or the corpse runs. But the old-school EQ rpg, and appealling fantasy environments, mobs and items- sure.
This thread started off with a good question and then just rapidly declined. The last few pages I read make me sick.
I don't know why people are so deadset on dividing up the MMO population into groups. People who play WoW aren't any different from you or me, they are just gamers. I keep reading about the 'casual market' and the 'hardcore market' and the 'old school market' when really the MMO target market is anyone who enjoys MMOs. Well over half of the last WoW guild I was in when I still played would tell you when asked why they were playing WoW "because there's nothing better out there." I'd put money on that still being the case.
You make a great game and you will attract the majority of the market. This is what UO did, and WoW did, and DAoC did, and any MMO that's ever had high subscription numbers.
You know why EQ2 and Darkfall and Mortal Online, AoC, WAR etc failed? Because they were not good games. Not because they were 'an old school pvp' game or a 'solo only' game or whatever other reason you can come up with. They had instability problems, massive bugs, horrible interfaces, not enough content, wow clones, they were half-assed, they were not good games. Sure, they can progress to become good games eventually and a lot of them have but that's not going to fix your subscriptions. EQ2 for one has progressed light years ahead of what it was when it came out, but it never recovered all those lost players. Your day to build a player base is launch day, first impressions count for everything.
You know how WoW attracted 12 million players? Regardless of what people like to say they didn't have 12 million warcraft/diablo fans sitting in the wings just waiting for the game to come out so they could make it the most popular MMO ever. They made a better game than anything else that was currently out there. Then they had 500k people log in and see that and word of mouth did the rest. They told their friends, they told their co-workers, they went back to whatever game they were playing before WoW and told their guilds and everyone they knew. Does it appeal to everyone? Of course not, but that doesn't mean when it came out it wasn't head and shoulders above everything that existed. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
I'm all for bringing back some old school ideas in a new game, just do it well. That's the downfall of Darkfall and Mortal Online. They didn't do it well, they had good ideas but really really shitty excecution. Look how popular EVE is, and that's with working around the fact their combat system doesn't exactly appeal to the majority and a 90 degree learning curve. Think how popular it would be if it was more accessible.
Quit cloning WoW, no one wants to play a clone of a game that already exists because if they did they would just play that game. If I login to your game and the first thing I see is a ( ! ) above some guy that wants me to go kill 12 boars, i'm logging off. Been there, done that, no thank you.
My perfect game would be something like:
- Skill based system UO style, no levels. You develop your character by playing how you wish to play. There has to be a skill cap or everyone winds up having the exact same things.
- World housing, non instanced.
- No instances whatever. Instances kill immersion, communities, and the feeling of being part of a larger than life world.
- The ability to solo and progress your character all the way to end-game, with a system setup to make grouping far better. Possibly some type of points or effect you receive while grouping that is very desirable. This makes it so you can always progress anytime you login, but if you have the time and chance to get a group you will never pass it up.
- Meaningful world PvP, as I said no instances above I mean it here as well. No instanced PvP.
- Some form of notoriety system like UO used to have but massively improved to allow for FFA PvP but not griefing of lower players. IE I am level 50, I can attack and kill a level 50 and receive no penalty. I cannot kill a level 50 of my own guild/faction/whatever or a lowbie player without some form of notoriety detriment. If you're a douche it should be publicy known. No one cares about their reputation anymore because they have no reason to. Give them a reason.
- Death penalty but no required corpse runs. It should hurt, but it should not be game-breaking.
- Crafting driven economy. Let a goblin drop a sword that's fine, let a crafter be able to craft the same sword except slightly better. [end-game dragon #20838] does not drop a magic breastplate of fortifying x44, it drops scales that a skilled crafter can turn into said breastplate. Do not make the scales or the crafted item NO TRADE. Crafting has over the years been morphed into nothing but a mini-game of very little worth in current MMOs.
- Epic quest chains. I to this day remember the day I finally got my epic fists on my monk in EQ1. No quest in any game i've played since then has been able to match the feel of it.
I really started out with one thought in my mind and ended up rambling.. but oh well. If someone gets something out of my post then it's served it's purpose. I am so burned out on the sewage this genre (my genre) has become, if someone makes a good game with even half of the things I listed above I would probably buy a life sub.
I know this is a lil off topic but what game out there do you think is cloest to the "old school MMO". I miss the old EQ days
I want a game where i need to group to accomplish things. I miss the community that EQ had.
Probably FFXI or EQ2.
The problem is, no single-player game lasts a year. You're lucky if it lasts 2 weeks. So instead of spending $230 a year on an MMO ($50 + $180), you'd be spending $1200 ($50x24) on single-player games, assuming you could find that many you wanted to play at all.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
EQ2 has been made way too easy last time i tried it again. And Vanguard definately has EQ2 beat.
What, you ain’t sick cuz we all not the same, and likes the greatest game eveh made, WoW?? lol j/k (poster before you came off like bait)
PvP or PvE based? Someone mentioned one game, swore by it, but it’s more PvP based. As the old games had their systems changed dramatically, and games like EQ2 were built around solo play like WoW, I don’t know of a pure mmorpg experience at this time. Maybe EVE? I’m not sure, it crashed and bugged on me a lot when I ran the demo, but that was a few days after a major content update, and it’s PvP based too.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I don't believe you've played EQ2 if you think it's a solo game.
Oh I understand that, I've given that argument in favor of mmorpg's in past years. I could easily spend $50/mo on stand-alone games, and did for a time. The two I mentioned are very expandable, content to last a very long time. I played Morrowind for years, but retired Oblivion after about six months. Still play NWN2 since about release, have all but the last expansion. Portal is short though, but I still have it installed and play it a couple times a month. However, mmo's can be a waste now too. You can run the demo, which gives you enough time to experiance the newbie areas... which are usually well designed to get you to spend $150 on box and expansions, then you learn what the games are really about and you realize you just wasted you cash on another clone.
Sure did, I have an EQ2 account like most every long term EQ subscriber made when it was released. EQ five years, EQ2 four months. You could opt to group, but really was not needed, and everything was instanced into the ground.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I'll play PvE or PvP but im speaking more of the PvE part of the game. Only reason i stayed with WoW was for its pvp element in the game. Although sometimes it got annoying when im trying to Focus on the PvE part and i keep getting ganked. Sucks when the Horde was Outnumring the Alliance.
Then maybe Vanguard as was mentioned 8 or so pages back, is more PvP based. However, with it's lousy release, the polish since then has not yet generated may subscribers as of yet. May want to read back on the discussion.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I would like to see Mythic redo Dark Age of Camelot, classic version. Updated graphics and models, but basically old school 3 realm rvr as end game. There was a certain realm pride that brought out some of the best rvr i have ever encountered. If Dark Age of Camelot 2 ( classic version pre Trials of Atlantis) would be published, i'd play it again for sure.
I don't know if this would be considered old school, but i enjoyed the Anarchy Online mission system.
Shadowbane was a great old school game, too many tech issues, but basically was fun.
Maybe i'm the only one, but i enjoyed Asherons Call 2, was fun for me.
Recently went back to Guild wars, don't know if thats considered old school, but it still brings me enjoyment. Gear is more for looks then for stats, i like that its more skill dependent then gear dependent. Happy to have not uninstalled it, as i have so many other games. Bonus, free to play, and not a money sucking item shop. Although it has an item shop, sorta.
FFXI is probably the closest that you'll get to that EQ1 feeling now days, I dare say even more than EQ1 (current). FFXI is the only game I can think of that didn't completely sell-out it's oldschool style, they did add a mentor system though to make finding / creating groups easier as obviously it is a somewhat top-heavy game now, 7 years in.
It definitely gives the epic feel though, and isn't a quest grinder like most modern MMOs.
They were doing just that, but then WAR started going under and EA made them drop Dark Age of Camelot Origins, to fix that sinking ship. Then EA basically dissolved Mythic and put whats left on SWTOR.
Origins may still be under way, just not any time soon.
I'd like the old school to come back.
Very good thread, as long as I could bare to read it(will come back and read more later). I somehow feel that some people on both sides of the fence has been indoctrinated to what a good MMOs is. Most go by what has been, and what is - not what should be of totally renewed approach to a repetitive genre.
Surely there are good aspects in each camp, but how many would actually play something that is the best of both camps without anything new?
I am an old paper and pencil Dungeon and Dragons player, and truth be old, I am sick and tired of offsprings of the same formula - over and over in a new dress. I am looking for new ideas. New approaches, not offsprings of already done, and redone things of the past. Why must there be dungeons? Why must there be bosses. Why levels? Why new skills for each level. Why two or three factions? Well, I know some of the answers, but surely people should be asking themselves just that to move forward.
I am not trying to put anyone down. I think many have very good arguments, but as I see it, everything spawns of the wellknown - not revolution, not even evolution.
One thing I do know, that I appreciate in all roleplaying games, is immersion. Something that great storytelling can provide, but can't be on its own.
Sorry, if I contributed so very little, but If I knew the answer to my own questions, I would be making the next-gen MMO, which I am not.
When the enemy is driven back, we have failed, and when he is cut off,
encircled and dispersed, we have succeeded.
I've never played the FF games so I have no opinion on those, but I would say the closest to old EQ would be Vanguard and even that is wayyyyy off.
Considering other genres of entertainment, like movies, we`ll probably see a shift sometime in the future as this phase gets old even to the newer crowds. This 'phase' being the instant gratification oriented mentality we are seeing in our mmos.
How further can it really go? Unlike movies, mmos are still rather new to the scene so not everyone has seen the circular trajectories filmakers take to bring us remakes of sometime rather obscure yet in existence titles.
Games will be the same, given time, or an event that will shift our perception of what the effort:reward ratio really can bring us.
All I know is that while I want an old school mmo to return, I don't necessarily want the same old mob/camp grinding of old. Immersion can be achieved without huge grinds, or thousands of quests. We just need 1 company to make it and make it solidly enjoyable, and we'll be there. Most likely to stay like the old EQ.
I doubt it will beat Farmville or the 'elephant in the room' but there'll be a world, a niche for those of us that enjoy the likeness of what we once loved, created, and lived in with such fond memories that we'll happily forge new ones without care of what others say.
I, for one, am awaiting for such a game. I will wait for it until I either die or cannot play anymore for the loss of the usage of my hands. I have no debate to this other than i have faith and it is rock solid. Trolls and flamers can spew forth all of your venemous, condescending, hateful, or misguided comments. It will never dissuade me.
It will come. Oh yes. It will come.
I don't see why old school MMOs couldn't come back but everyone has different tastes in MMOs. Currently, there has been a trend for companies to offer flashy in game items at the expense of your wallet in addtion to subscription fees. Admittedly a company is going to be in it for a money but a company that lets numbers and the money dictate how their game is made and run is going to end up with a very shallow game or eventually it will turn shallow.
I think the best type of MMO is one that makes you feel that you are there in an open world whether is be a fantasy or sci fi setting. You should simply be able to walk in a direction and encounter stuff along your path that shapes your future. Although not a MMO, I feel that certain aspects of single player games such as Fallout could work well in a MMO. It matters not if you are good or evil and every choice has the potential to both benefit and harm you.
A MMO should all be about customization and not just your avatar picture. I dislike the entire concept of levels and tiers and skill trees which only make people grind real fast to the top and then they are bored out of their mind. How good you are at a sword, gun, bow, etc., should be determine by how often you use it and special training you might seek to perfect a particular combat style. Everyone seems to brag how they got the flashy +1000 sword of ultra uberness but to me it is much cooler if you took out the boss with a rusty screwdriver because you were that good. Not sure if everyone has seen Chronicles of Riddick movie but to those who have..... Remember the I'll kill you with my tea cup scene?
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that today everything is about the grind and having the most flashiest armor and weapon which most likely will be something bought these days instead of earned. A MMO should be a story about your character and events that happen to that character relate to the choices you make in the game. Groups have their part too which is why it is important to have factions that can control politics, resources, and territory. Decisions that you make as part of a group can effect your standing. Did you help some knights defeat some foul evil creature or did you help some bandits raze a village to the ground? Unfortunately, sandbox MMOs are rare these days and only a few have decided to dedicate themselves to the game and player base instead of the almighty dollar. I think EVE might be a good example of this and I'm not saying its a game for everyone but they do seem to care about their game. It would be nice to see some Fantasy MMOs and SCIFI MMOs dedicate themselves to the game. Maybe Guildwars 2 will come through although I would like to see some games put out with less instancing. I suppose many of us will have to wait for one of these companies to step outside of the box.
I don't think it's so much about moving backwards or forward, or innovation vs. stagnation, but that there was a fork in the road along the way. Then after a moment, it turned into a spoon... where it all folded in on itself... and then we were all spoonfed baby food while having our whittle hands held
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I would love to see old school AC1 come back most games now a days people need there hand held in games for questing AC did it right ...
My first MMO was EQ. When I think of old school I think of EQ features. I loved EQ at the time and the things I loved was:
* the excitement and sense of adventure
* the community. Family friendly chat, with no spam, no swearing and no trolls. The friends who left the game.
* developing your toon.
* a user interface that did not lock up during lag spikes, because of latency or simply because the server failed to action or respond to a particular GUI request. Many modern gui's seem to be too tightly tied to the server and often lock all functions while waiting for a response from the server for a single action such as using an ability or looting.
In retrospect, the old school features I do not miss include:
* huge death penalties when 90% of deaths were due to disconnects and lag.
* the age of dial up internet
* huge amount of down time between encounters waiting for mana and health to regenerate
* kill stealing. Whoever landed the killing blow got credit for the kill.
* mob trains.
* camping a location for hours waiting for a rare mob to spawn.
* slow travel. Remember the 20 minute boat trips?
* good loot only available from raids (EQ early days)
* forced grouping to obtain reasonable items
* no bazaar (auction house)
* forced to go to Greater Faydark (elf zone) to buy and sell. This ruined my sense of role play as I was not an elf
* time wasted trying to buy and sell that could have been spent fighting or exploring
* contested spawns
* time wasted when multiple guilds turn up for a boss encounter at the same time and the massive lag this caused
* being forced to two box ( pay and run 2 accounts simultaneously) because many classes could not solo. This was more common for off-peak players because their was just not enough players at USA off-peak times.
* very few quests and most quests gave very little xp.
* the only way to level was to (grind) kill lots of monsters that gave reasonable experience.
* hard to find quests unless you used the cheats on the web. Many quest NPC's would not talk to you unless you had high enough faction in whatever faction group the NPC happened to belong, met the level requirements and had completed any pre-requisite quests. If you want to truly explore the world and not use the online cheats, you really needed to check with NPC's regularly to check whether they would now talk to you. There were hundreds of NPC's widely spaced in different zones and cites, so it was not practical to check with each one individually every time you gained a level, improved your faction level or completed a quest elsewhere.
* if you were not a class that could bind (set your spawn point after death), you could spend ages looking for someone to bind you in a particular area
Some of the features that I liked in later EQ expansions or subsequent MMO's include:
encounter locking. This results in no mob trains and other players cannot interfere once the encounter has started
boosted mana (power) and health regeneration between encounters, so less downtime.
swift travel including mounts and teleports
encounters that were you own adventure for you or your group (instances)
auction houses. I can adventure while my items are on sale.
locked encounters in open world to prevent kill stealing and training mobs onto other players
quests that added to the adventure and gave significant rewards and experience
no harsh death penalties due to disconnects or lag spikes
Quest logs so that I do not have to resort to pen and paper records while playing
An easy way of identifying NPC's who are currently ready to give a quest.
the ability to play solo, group or raid depending on individual preference.
Lord of the Rings Online (LoTRO) is the last game to give me that old EQ sense of adventure. LoTRO has features that many would not consider old school.
Boat travel was awesome in EQ, a lot of people were upset when they quit running. Even WoW has some slow travel... like with the subway (though that no one there uses as it's pointless). It was great in EQ when you had to take an actual journey to get to another place, made the game world feel more cohesive, sometimes even challenging so you traveled in a group. There were faster modes of travel though, like the spires or Drui's, good if you had to go far or recover a corpse. SWG had slow travel too, a lot of people would meet up at the starport. I think an old school game today needs it, it builds community.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I liked EQ because of the challenge of it and the community. It was the best feeling in the world when you put an awesome group together. I would love to see good gear acquired by tough quests again. Like traveling to four different areas and needing to get a different item from a different mob. I wouldn't miss waiting 20 hours straight for a spawn though. It was exciting at the time, and it was worth the reward, but unnecessary.
No there isnt anyway to know about a present full feature MMO sandbox....but those of ya that keep spouting on about games like SWG sure indeed were the niche before WOW.
The biggest sandbox to date is EVE with ~350k....and it still doesnt top EQ1 sub numbers from 04 era which stood at 450k.
You guys belong to the virtual reality/sims clubs of America....which wasnt popular among us longtime video-gamers back then. Well before MMOs went mainstream, bringing in a mulititude of newer gamers which joined in the WOW phase.
I am with ya guys when you wanna bring back more open world stuff. The second it starts getting into the alternate reality/virtual economic simulaters you guys lose support. Instead of accepting the lack of appeal to others, and supporting the games that do cater to your style.....you guys hang out here whining daily.
As I have said before....that is a nerd's nerd style of gaming. It just doesnt belong in a AAA title if Devs are looking to attract the masses. It boils down to ROLE play vs ROLL play. As sub numbers have shown thru the yrs, the far majority are interested in ROLL play. Which was true even before WoW launched.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.