Changing character is not the definition of mainstream only sometimes is that the case. The Hangover was a bigtime mainstream comedy that millions of people paid to see but it didnt change it's character lol it is what it is.WOW didnt " go mainstream" they are or they are not. Your heavy metal anology is off the mark though sorry. Bon Jovi was not heavy metal it was pop rock. The Who was heavier than they were. Maiden was a sub genre of heavy metal they are prog metal.( fear of the Dark true to their roots? ugh. Even the band had regrets about that) So maybe WOW is just a pop MMO. It is what it is. To think Blizzard would produce anything else is silly. That is what Blizz has always done. They make lite versions of everything they do. Strategy? Starcraft.Warcraft. Very cool but not the deepest strategy titles around. RPG? Diablo. ok hack and slash but not the deepest in the actual, you know, rpg elements. MMO? WOW not too bad fun and charming but not the deepest gaming experience. Thats like flaming Clapton for playing the blues or Vinnie M. for having classical influence in his guitar playing. It is what it is. To think otherwise is silly
Where I grew up, Bon Jovi was certainly part of the mainstream "heavy metal" boom, in which people who couldn't have named a single Black Sabbath or Judas Priest tune if their lives depended on it, suddenly grew their hair long and proclaimed themselves to be "heavy". If it was different where you were, you should be thankful. I haven't followed Maiden all that closely (I'm one of the few who liked the Di'Anno period best), but the stuff I have heard has been reasonable. Anywho - the analogy wasn't meant to be perfect, only to exemplify that it isn't the necessarily the popularity itself that is a turn-off.
As for Blizzard, I know what they do, and no matter how many new players they bring into the gaming market, I'd rather they didn't exist, because their idea of gaming sucks. I like my RPGs nice and slow and turn based, and I don't need no steenkin' badges, achievements and other e-peen enhancers to enjoy my games. Yet, that's whats happening across the board, as the game producers tune in to the needs of the now mainstream market. So, I still don't see how the influx of all these hipsters have benefitted my gaming, or how they haven't redefined the genre itself. Quality RPGs are now so few and far between, that it's really hard to sustain computer gaming as a hobby. Blizzard will of course continue to be Blizzard - just don't ask me to like it.
If I said it once. I say it again. World of Warcraft is a stain on the mmo canvas. They say other mmo are clones of WOW, but is'nt WOW a clone of other mmos it self. I still play WoW. But man am I dying for something to kill the giant that is WOW sitting on the still living victums tha make up it's throne.
WOW is like everything else that becomes popular and mainstream. There will always be those that will dislike the most popular whatever it is just because it is popular.
Not sure I follow you. The grudge people have against things going mainstream, is that the thing itself often completely changes character. When loads of new people come in, they start redefining what the genre is about, and all of a sudden you're seen as an old-fashioned oddball because you were there first and continue to like what you always liked before the transformation to mainstream happened.
I liked heavy metal in the early 80s. The reason I didn't care for Bon Jovi and the likes wasn't because it was popular, but because it had nothing at all to do with what heavy metal was to me. Iron Maiden became a mainstream act, but they managed to stay true to their roots, so I still like them. In the same vein, I don't care for what WoW is doing to the RPG genre, as these changes do absolutely nothing for me.
Great post.
I think far too often, and especially on this site, people assume that others dislike something popular and mainstream just because it's popular and mainstream. What they don't realize is like you said, the now popularized thing that you once enjoyed is but a shadow of it's original self. It may still be very much alive, but essentially it's dead for you.
I first learned this in the mid 90's as I watched the rave scene (where I'm from) deteriorate rather quickly to eventually become completely commercialized. My beloved music lost all of it's passion in the process. The scene lived on for years, but instead of the pioneers indulging in the culture, it was a mix of newcomers ranging from "candy punks" to "clubbers".
This to me is an unfortunate but natural evolution.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I find it a little ironic that we have to talk about the elephant just when we got info about a much better MMO coming our way in Guild Wars 2. We also have a better mmo coming our way in FFXIV and The Old Republic but yet people still feel the need we have to talk about the elephant. Why, because it has over 10 mill subs ? The elephant is no better than farmville. It is nothing more than a social gathering after a hard days work for most people. I'm not saying that is a bad thing but for the love of Kormir there is so much better coming our way.
MMO's are hard to do. You need to create a game that lasts for months, caters for all kinds of people and be good enough to be payed for so you can continue development. Blizzard got it right and everyone else didn't.
It is kinda the same way Microsoft won with DOS, it was hardly the most advanced OS out there, but everyone else from IBM to Apple and Amiga screwed up so badly that MS was the winner by default. It is as if you had horse race and the all the other races knocked on the butchers door asking for his special on horse steak.
Bullshit. That's what I call it. You made sense up until that point, but with this you showed you were just another person who just doesn't get it that quantity is not the same as quality, or that other MMO's can outclass WoW in several aspects. If all you can see is WoW, stick to playing WoW and don't post here.
Comparing WoW with Microsoft? Are you nuts? Are you really saying that like as much as someone needs MS for an OS that you need WoW for a MMO experience? Man, that's just... pathetic.
But in one thing you'er right: Microsoft "won" the race with Windows not by it being the best product there was around, but by being the easiest to get into and smothering the competition. The result of that is that you get half baked products like Vista. They tried the same thing with web browsers, but luckily there are other browsers available as Firefox, Safari and Google Chrome who managed to break that domination of the mediocre.
Famrmville has 80+ million people playing it, Dofus, 20-30 million. That doesn't make those games the best online games around.
But you just stick with playing WoW for year after year after year, those of us who really like MMO gaming and not just one game will be playing FFXIV, GW2, LotrO, AoC, EVE, ToR, TSW, TERA and a diverse lot of other fun MMO's and not just one MMO "because so many other people and 6 million Chinese are still playing it". But you just stick with WoW, that's fine, good for you.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I hate tuna...God How loathe it. it is the absolute worst...nasty evil icky poo!! I just can't understand why every day I still stop at subway for a footlong tuna melt.
People play Wow even those who profess to hate it because unlike other MMO's it doesn’t suck, Elwin Forrest on My server is abso-fucking lutely packed with low level players, how many six year old games can claim that? Cataclysm is already showing up on top five pre order list. The cold hard truth is if a developer wants to be the man they have to kill the man and quite frankly no one has even showed up to the fight and yes I am looking at you GW2 and TOR.
The next MMO that has even a slim slim hope of even coming near the retarded success of WoW will be Blizzards next MMO, and only a idiot would invest money on a MMO project that wasn't created by them. I can only imagine the great wail that will come when we get photos of people camping out for days just to get their copy of the next WoW expansion, or how they will wait in queue for hours just to by the next mount (which from what I hear is going to make the Barons Mount look silly) Why do people do that? Why do they skip lunch for a month just to buy a WoW mount, or use the old my Grandma died just to get out of work so they can go to Blizzcon? It sure as hell isn't because the game is bad, or there is nothing else to play...it is because WoW strikes a cord with millions upon millions of people, and that simply isn't going away no matter how hard you wish it, especially if you keep spending every last dime you have on the WoW trademark.
It's funny how so many people like to compare the MMO market with a deathmatch, or a boxing match with WoW as the uncontested champion.
Me, I prefer to look at the MMO market as a store. I don't want it to be a soviet era shop where you can only one, two different goods are being sold. I want it to be a super market with a large diversity of choice.
Sometimes I want a tuna sandwich, but other times I want a hotdog or a burger. And even if I like my coke very much, just as often I grab a beer, other times I go for the Red Bull or the specialty beers.
That's how I like it, variety. If other people only like to eat tuna or drink coke, that's fine with me.
But here it comes:
it is really grating and starting to get on my nerves if people keep on telling me how coke is the best thing there is, and that all other drinks suck, or that they only eat tuna because other food is less. If you only eat tuna or only like coke, then go eat and drink that. Don't try to convince others like me that tuna is the best and only-needed food there is just because you and so many other people happen to eat it.
It just makes you look like a tunnelvision autistic, if you cannot comprehend that maybe what you like isn't necessarily the best there is or what other people like.
I eat my tuna when I damn well like to, not because so many other people eat it. And if I hunger for something else, then I will eat that and enjoy it, thank you.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
WOW is like everything else that becomes popular and mainstream. There will always be those that will dislike the most popular whatever it is just because it is popular.
Not sure I follow you. The grudge people have against things going mainstream, is that the thing itself often completely changes character. When loads of new people come in, they start redefining what the genre is about, and all of a sudden you're seen as an old-fashioned oddball because you were there first and continue to like what you always liked before the transformation to mainstream happened.
I liked heavy metal in the early 80s. The reason I didn't care for Bon Jovi and the likes wasn't because it was popular, but because it had nothing at all to do with what heavy metal was to me. Iron Maiden became a mainstream act, but they managed to stay true to their roots, so I still like them. In the same vein, I don't care for what WoW is doing to the RPG genre, as these changes do absolutely nothing for me.
Hohoho... I guess you unveiled some ugly worms here. I think this is indeed one of the big reasons people hate WOW. I would like to see it fall too, I admit, but mostly because I feel it blocks innovation. Still, even tho I am a huge Star Wars fan, and even if all good comes true about SWTOR, I still do not expect it cause a serious dent into WOW. Humans are creatures of habit. They eat the same food they are used to, come there whatever there be.
I think WOW will have another 5-6 years on its height of power and only time itself will render it obsolete someday. Humans are lemmings. Many just stick to what everbody else does.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Nothing wrong with that, if people want to eat the same food, drink the same drink and play the same game they've played for years. It's not my idea of fun, but that's different for everybody.
But to stay in the heavy metal analogy, it can be very annoying if people try to convince you that a mainstream band as Bon Jovi is the best there is, that everything that came before it sucks, and that other rock bands are shitty too. Good for you if you like Bon Jovi but there's a whole world of diversity out there to enjoy.
But I think that a lot of the most fanatic WoW posters are actually conscious or subconscious trolls, they just love to gloat. Enthusiasm for the game you play is fine, but I cannot imagine why people who love gaming are happy if other MMO's suck or who would like to see upcoming MMO's fail or do less well as WoW.
And if people fail to see that other MMO's have merits that can outdo WoW, well, that's their loss.
Me, I love gaming and I love MMO gaming, so I would love to see a large variety of successful games and MMO's to be around.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
It's funny how so many people like to compare the MMO market with a deathmatch, or a boxing match with WoW as the uncontested champion.
Me, I prefer to look at the MMO market as a store. I don't want it to be a soviet era shop where you can only one, two different goods are being sold. I want it to be a super market with a large diversity of choice.
Sometimes I want a tuna sandwich, but other times I want a hotdog or a burger. And even if I like my coke very much, just as often I grab a beer, other times I go for the Red Bull or the specialty beers.
That's how I like it, variety. If other people only like to eat tuna or drink coke, that's fine with me.
But here it comes:
it is really grating and starting to get on my nerves if people keep on telling me how coke is the best thing there is, and that all other drinks suck, or that they only eat tuna because other food is less. If you only eat tuna or only like coke, then go eat and drink that. Don't try to convince others like me that tuna is the best and only-needed food there is just because you and so many other people happen to eat it.
It just makes you look like a tunnelvision autistic, if you cannot comprehend that maybe what you like isn't necessarily the best there is or what other people like.
I eat my tuna when I damn well like to, not because so many other people eat it. And if I hunger for something else, then I will eat that and enjoy it, thank you.
I have discovered many many years ago that the people who go out of their way to cram something down your throat are only really doing so as a means to convince themselves why they like it.
My sister for example: She went on this Tofu kick a few years back. If it was made with Tofu, she ate it. And everytime you ate something else in front of her that wasn't Tofu, she would preach about how the Tofu version was soo much better for you and how all these celebs were into it. She would go as far as to segway a conversation to the topic of food only so she could mention how much better a Tofu burger tastes compaired to real hamburgers. She has since given up on the Tofu fad (after 2 years) and claims to not remember ever trying to convince any of us that Tofu Burgers tasted because in her own words "They tasted bland..."
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
MMORPG = WOW for the vast majority of casual, young, old, male, female players.
I think the article is again a sum of elements which talks besides the core point of this industry.
No way is Kotor pushing anything out of the room. The elephant stays ...
... you only have to look for another room, because this room is simply taken.
Franchizes also have no physycal life cycle like a mammal.
People waited for 20 years a "Windows killer", but like Microsft, Blizzard simply has 90% of the market in its hands (P2P model market) and will act accordingly.
In 1995 you still could gain respect by talking about a WIndows killer, these days you are the fool of the village.
Besides, after CATA the dominant market position will be even more tight in the hands of Blizzard. And a game with voice overs and video clips will not make any impact over 6 months time what so ever.
The cemetary of WOW killers is looking mighty big already. It is time to expand the territory for more graves.
This is probably the most accurate post in the whole thread, including the original article. Ms. Skelton is looking for something in a form that is not likely to happen. In the software world there is a point where a product or rather a brand achieves critical mass, and it becomes extremely dificult to unseat. WoW hit that critical mass. They did it by leveraging the developers reputation from several previous games that had a very very broad market appeal. So WoW pulled in millions of non MMO players/purchasers. But here's the problem for those that come after. For most of those WoW is synonomous with MMO. MMO is synonomous for WoW. THAT is the elephant in the room. And no matter how you cut it, or what your new shiny MMO is, unless you have a path to leverage a new branch of MMO player you are simply canibalizing the existing MMO playerbase. Which essentially means you are trying to grab these millions of new MMO players that WoW brought in with "Buy me I'm like WoW", which is a guaranteed recipe for second place and limited growth. Now when you add in "Buy me! I'm like WoW, but I cost an order of magnitude more to make!" there is no way this can be a profitable or succesful business model.
Right now the only subscription MMO on the horizon that has any hope of leveraging a new group might be SW:TOR. It is from Bioware, which has a good following for many succesful games accross multiple platforms, and it is targeted at SW fans. But it has some issues in its way as well. Blizzard hit a weird dynamic with their success. Something that they probably did not plan for and I doubt anyone could possibly duplicate. That group that they pulled in gamers from was not really the RPG/MMO comunity. They were pulling from fans of their Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft RTS series. So they were actually pulling in players that were not real familiar with MMO's. Bioware is a straight RPG maker. While they are the best RPG maker out there. Their fan base that is not already crossover MMO players is nowhere near as large. At least not in the PC market. RPG players tend to already be familiar with MMO's and alreadt either love them or hate them. There simply is less margin for those who might try. Add to this a somewhat jaded sense to any Star Wars game that does not have "lego" in the name and a concern that SW:TOR is already so grossly over inflated in development costs that even doing WoW type numbers does not guarantee success, and it is far from even a likely "WoW killer".
On the non subscription side keep an eye on Guild Wars 2. Once again a good more casual fan base a tendancy to be bought on a whim off the shelf, a reasonably decent reputation. And alot of flexibility to leverage newer business models.
Ultimately, much like Windows, and MS Office, a WoW killer will not appear until or unless the platform itself changes. If someone figures out how to do real MMO gameplay on an advanced console platform such as an Xbox or PS3, then you will see something. But until then it will be at best a foot race against a motorcycle.
Analogies will always fail as a complete representation, but since we're at it, I'd say WoW is more like an Internet Explorer than an Office or Windows. An Internet Explorer where there are browsers as good as or better than IE, even if still a large group is using IE. Or more like a very popular tv show.
Why?
Because in contrast to Windows or Office where you're almost forced to work with it (bc of work, school, or bc it's alrdy installed on your new PC), you don't have to choose to play WoW if you want to play a MMO. Because you play WoW or any MMO out of fun, not because you need to, and like all fun things you don't just watch only 1 tv-show however popular that is, you watch whatever show that you find entertaining at the moment.
And if there hadn't been 5-6 million Chinese who'd adopted WoW as well, the sub numbers would already show that a lot of WoW players have grown tired after maybe years of playing WoW. I mean, wouldn't you after playing 1 game for years, whatever game that is? I certainly would, however good that game is. And I certainly wouldn't watch the same tv-show over and over again and nothing else. But that's my idea of what's fun and what not.
Basically, the comparison with Windows or Office is lacking because no matter how tired or bored you might get with Windows or Office, you'll still use it because fun is not why you use those, you use them because there's a need of them.
People who say that WoW is all that matters regarding MMO's always seem to me like people trying to convince others that you should only watch CSI, or only go to McDonald's for eating outdoors. Nice for them if that's how they like it, but not for me.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Great Article. All i gotta say is, Cataclysm, Rift, And Star wars: Old republic, is guna be the biggest Head to Head Clash on supremacy we have ever seen, They all have good Basis, and they will all have good graphics (WoW is upgrading there graphics again), and they will all have New and more intense stuff then ever. We will see what happens hopefully in 2011. If all goes as said, they will be releaseing Back to Back, causing a epic shift in MMO's
Great Article. All i gotta say is, Cataclysm, Rift, And Star wars: Old republic, is guna be the biggest Head to Head Clash on supremacy we have ever seen, They all have good Basis, and they will all have good graphics (WoW is upgrading there graphics again), and they will all have New and more intense stuff then ever. We will see what happens hopefully in 2011. If all goes as said, they will be releaseing Back to Back, causing a epic shift in MMO's
Oh and Also not Forgetting FFX IV, and Guild Wars 2, they will also help in the Shifting off MMO's
Well I am sorry for you lol I grew up surrounded by people who knew what heavy metal was...Noone I ever knew ever thought Bon Jovi was metal. They just had long hair. I agree with the Paul period though
I completely disagree on a personal level with the few and far between RPG's though. [...]
Lucky b'astard, then And yeah, RPGs are picking up again. Been wary of Risen, though, after the huge disappointment that was Gothic 3, but I guess it's time to pick up the latest patches and take it for a spin. (PB doesn't make true RPGs, or course, but this is not a day and age in which I can afford to be a purist )
I have been beta testing (closed betas mind you) a few new and upcoming MMOs. I can say that both the subscription & F2P games are quickly goin to show the masses that they have something "new and improved" to offer us. I have pretty much called my WoW account a dead wash now. I may pop in after Cata goes live to see just what the fuss is about. Maybe. I might also just not even bother. One of the closed betas I'm workin with should go to public beta or even Live launch in the next couple months. It's F2P, has stunning graphics, a strong and healthy lore/story line and quest system. Not to mention a decent PVP setup for those who get into that kinda thing.
For those who worry that F2P means a pirate in your wallet takin real life money from you--to provide some sort of "edge" on other players, fear not. The only thing of serious note in the cash shop are costumes, universal chat (means across mult. servers) and cosmetic mounts. (mounts that just look cool, but are no faster than typical mounts from in the game already)
While the new stuff might not be the proverbial WoW-killer, they are certainly goin to offer everyone something "new" and unexplored. If you are tired of leveling alts in the same old same old areas and story lines and tired server drama and all that jazz, give a crack at the new kids coming around. You might find something you like.
Is the sheep arguement all you can say? Just because people enjoy a game you don't, that makes them sheep?
As for wow, all I can say is, that as long as the new mmos commning our are good and I can find one that I enjoy, couldn't care less about wow. If people continue to like it they should keep on playing it.
MMORPG = WOW for the vast majority of casual, young, old, male, female players.
I think the article is again a sum of elements which talks besides the core point of this industry.
No way is Kotor pushing anything out of the room. The elephant stays ...
... you only have to look for another room, because this room is simply taken.
Franchizes also have no physycal life cycle like a mammal.
People waited for 20 years a "Windows killer", but like Microsft, Blizzard simply has 90% of the market in its hands (P2P model market) and will act accordingly.
In 1995 you still could gain respect by talking about a WIndows killer, these days you are the fool of the village.
Besides, after CATA the dominant market position will be even more tight in the hands of Blizzard. And a game with voice overs and video clips will not make any impact over 6 months time what so ever.
The cemetary of WOW killers is looking mighty big already. It is time to expand the territory for more graves.
This is probably the most accurate post in the whole thread, including the original article. Ms. Skelton is looking for something in a form that is not likely to happen. In the software world there is a point where a product or rather a brand achieves critical mass, and it becomes extremely dificult to unseat. WoW hit that critical mass. They did it by leveraging the developers reputation from several previous games that had a very very broad market appeal. So WoW pulled in millions of non MMO players/purchasers. But here's the problem for those that come after. For most of those WoW is synonomous with MMO. MMO is synonomous for WoW. THAT is the elephant in the room. And no matter how you cut it, or what your new shiny MMO is, unless you have a path to leverage a new branch of MMO player you are simply canibalizing the existing MMO playerbase. Which essentially means you are trying to grab these millions of new MMO players that WoW brought in with "Buy me I'm like WoW", which is a guaranteed recipe for second place and limited growth. Now when you add in "Buy me! I'm like WoW, but I cost an order of magnitude more to make!" there is no way this can be a profitable or succesful business model.
Right now the only subscription MMO on the horizon that has any hope of leveraging a new group might be SW:TOR. It is from Bioware, which has a good following for many succesful games accross multiple platforms, and it is targeted at SW fans. But it has some issues in its way as well. Blizzard hit a weird dynamic with their success. Something that they probably did not plan for and I doubt anyone could possibly duplicate. That group that they pulled in gamers from was not really the RPG/MMO comunity. They were pulling from fans of their Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft RTS series. So they were actually pulling in players that were not real familiar with MMO's. Bioware is a straight RPG maker. While they are the best RPG maker out there. Their fan base that is not already crossover MMO players is nowhere near as large. At least not in the PC market. RPG players tend to already be familiar with MMO's and alreadt either love them or hate them. There simply is less margin for those who might try. Add to this a somewhat jaded sense to any Star Wars game that does not have "lego" in the name and a concern that SW:TOR is already so grossly over inflated in development costs that even doing WoW type numbers does not guarantee success, and it is far from even a likely "WoW killer".
On the non subscription side keep an eye on Guild Wars 2. Once again a good more casual fan base a tendancy to be bought on a whim off the shelf, a reasonably decent reputation. And alot of flexibility to leverage newer business models.
Ultimately, much like Windows, and MS Office, a WoW killer will not appear until or unless the platform itself changes. If someone figures out how to do real MMO gameplay on an advanced console platform such as an Xbox or PS3, then you will see something. But until then it will be at best a foot race against a motorcycle.
Why can't ppl just accept it that BLizzard has done a fantastic job with WOW. The game is spot on built on very solid vision and it is able to maintain that vision. PPL like it .. and they play it. They dont have to be previous Warcraft fans or Blizzard worshipers. THey are gamers that want to play games.
Look at Mythic now. They got two successfull MMOs under their belt and everyone was thinking WAR would be the next big thinkg in MMOs. But Mythic screwed up big time. There is not a basic logic about that game at all. There is no vision - just random bug fixing on issues that are so badly designed and executed - that nothing can fix that mess now.
BLizzard could have failed horribly with WOW. They did not - but instead created something Massive with solid gameplay that ppl enjoy. And it has taken off BECAUSE it is well done and works. I promise you that WOW would have died long time ago if it had Mythic in charge - or the Funcom PR team that is NOTHING but the PR.
I'm so tired of stories about games that have potential to do this or that. These five games have the potential to kill wow. These games have awesome potential in their new mechanics. This company is awesome so the game has the potential to kick ass. This IP has so much potential for an mmo. blah blah blah
Enough already. Year after year it is the same bullshit shoveled around about game x going to be awesome only to watch it crash and burn in horrific fashion. Why on earth do we need yet another article filled with hype and potential of this game or that?
Hows about we start paying more attention to what we do have until some developer actually delivers on these grand promises?
The reason the elephant exists at all is because so few games have come anywhere close to their potential. The more we build up expectations the harder it is going to be for a developer to deliver anything close to those assumptions. Even when a game does deliver something decent it gets murdered for not delivering enough.
Really I am tired of being fed hype and potential for new games. I don't think it is doing the developers any favors and it certainly hasn't worked out well for players.
Comments
Ok, I'm going to say it, because I'm in an abnormally rude mood today (so my apologies in advance
).
WoW is too big, and we should all be looking for something else to play? Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that the gist of your article?
Wasn't this being written about 2+ years ago?
This only shows that not only MMOs, but ARTICLES about MMOs have become stale and repetitive.
The industry as a whole has gone to hell in a handbasket.
If you need me for anything, I'll be on DOSBox playing Panzer General.
I'll put my "polite" hat back on now. Thank you.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Where I grew up, Bon Jovi was certainly part of the mainstream "heavy metal" boom, in which people who couldn't have named a single Black Sabbath or Judas Priest tune if their lives depended on it, suddenly grew their hair long and proclaimed themselves to be "heavy". If it was different where you were, you should be thankful. I haven't followed Maiden all that closely (I'm one of the few who liked the Di'Anno period best), but the stuff I have heard has been reasonable. Anywho - the analogy wasn't meant to be perfect, only to exemplify that it isn't the necessarily the popularity itself that is a turn-off.
As for Blizzard, I know what they do, and no matter how many new players they bring into the gaming market, I'd rather they didn't exist, because their idea of gaming sucks. I like my RPGs nice and slow and turn based, and I don't need no steenkin' badges, achievements and other e-peen enhancers to enjoy my games. Yet, that's whats happening across the board, as the game producers tune in to the needs of the now mainstream market. So, I still don't see how the influx of all these hipsters have benefitted my gaming, or how they haven't redefined the genre itself. Quality RPGs are now so few and far between, that it's really hard to sustain computer gaming as a hobby. Blizzard will of course continue to be Blizzard - just don't ask me to like it.
If I said it once. I say it again. World of Warcraft is a stain on the mmo canvas. They say other mmo are clones of WOW, but is'nt WOW a clone of other mmos it self. I still play WoW. But man am I dying for something to kill the giant that is WOW sitting on the still living victums tha make up it's throne.
Great post.
I think far too often, and especially on this site, people assume that others dislike something popular and mainstream just because it's popular and mainstream. What they don't realize is like you said, the now popularized thing that you once enjoyed is but a shadow of it's original self. It may still be very much alive, but essentially it's dead for you.
I first learned this in the mid 90's as I watched the rave scene (where I'm from) deteriorate rather quickly to eventually become completely commercialized. My beloved music lost all of it's passion in the process. The scene lived on for years, but instead of the pioneers indulging in the culture, it was a mix of newcomers ranging from "candy punks" to "clubbers".
This to me is an unfortunate but natural evolution.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I find it a little ironic that we have to talk about the elephant just when we got info about a much better MMO coming our way in Guild Wars 2. We also have a better mmo coming our way in FFXIV and The Old Republic but yet people still feel the need we have to talk about the elephant. Why, because it has over 10 mill subs ? The elephant is no better than farmville. It is nothing more than a social gathering after a hard days work for most people. I'm not saying that is a bad thing but for the love of Kormir there is so much better coming our way.
Bullshit. That's what I call it. You made sense up until that point, but with this you showed you were just another person who just doesn't get it that quantity is not the same as quality, or that other MMO's can outclass WoW in several aspects. If all you can see is WoW, stick to playing WoW and don't post here.
Comparing WoW with Microsoft? Are you nuts? Are you really saying that like as much as someone needs MS for an OS that you need WoW for a MMO experience? Man, that's just... pathetic.
But in one thing you'er right: Microsoft "won" the race with Windows not by it being the best product there was around, but by being the easiest to get into and smothering the competition. The result of that is that you get half baked products like Vista. They tried the same thing with web browsers, but luckily there are other browsers available as Firefox, Safari and Google Chrome who managed to break that domination of the mediocre.
Famrmville has 80+ million people playing it, Dofus, 20-30 million. That doesn't make those games the best online games around.
But you just stick with playing WoW for year after year after year, those of us who really like MMO gaming and not just one game will be playing FFXIV, GW2, LotrO, AoC, EVE, ToR, TSW, TERA and a diverse lot of other fun MMO's and not just one MMO "because so many other people and 6 million Chinese are still playing it". But you just stick with WoW, that's fine, good for you.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If folks want to read a decent article on this topic I suggest this
Now...where was I?
You know this have been covered so much.
I hate tuna...God How loathe it. it is the absolute worst...nasty evil icky poo!! I just can't understand why every day I still stop at subway for a footlong tuna melt.
People play Wow even those who profess to hate it because unlike other MMO's it doesn’t suck, Elwin Forrest on My server is abso-fucking lutely packed with low level players, how many six year old games can claim that? Cataclysm is already showing up on top five pre order list. The cold hard truth is if a developer wants to be the man they have to kill the man and quite frankly no one has even showed up to the fight and yes I am looking at you GW2 and TOR.
The next MMO that has even a slim slim hope of even coming near the retarded success of WoW will be Blizzards next MMO, and only a idiot would invest money on a MMO project that wasn't created by them. I can only imagine the great wail that will come when we get photos of people camping out for days just to get their copy of the next WoW expansion, or how they will wait in queue for hours just to by the next mount (which from what I hear is going to make the Barons Mount look silly) Why do people do that? Why do they skip lunch for a month just to buy a WoW mount, or use the old my Grandma died just to get out of work so they can go to Blizzcon? It sure as hell isn't because the game is bad, or there is nothing else to play...it is because WoW strikes a cord with millions upon millions of people, and that simply isn't going away no matter how hard you wish it, especially if you keep spending every last dime you have on the WoW trademark.
Fun little article post, that link
It's funny how so many people like to compare the MMO market with a deathmatch, or a boxing match with WoW as the uncontested champion.
Me, I prefer to look at the MMO market as a store. I don't want it to be a soviet era shop where you can only one, two different goods are being sold. I want it to be a super market with a large diversity of choice.
Sometimes I want a tuna sandwich, but other times I want a hotdog or a burger. And even if I like my coke very much, just as often I grab a beer, other times I go for the Red Bull or the specialty beers.
That's how I like it, variety. If other people only like to eat tuna or drink coke, that's fine with me.
But here it comes:
it is really grating and starting to get on my nerves if people keep on telling me how coke is the best thing there is, and that all other drinks suck, or that they only eat tuna because other food is less. If you only eat tuna or only like coke, then go eat and drink that. Don't try to convince others like me that tuna is the best and only-needed food there is just because you and so many other people happen to eat it.
It just makes you look like a tunnelvision autistic, if you cannot comprehend that maybe what you like isn't necessarily the best there is or what other people like.
I eat my tuna when I damn well like to, not because so many other people eat it. And if I hunger for something else, then I will eat that and enjoy it, thank you.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Hohoho... I guess you unveiled some ugly worms here. I think this is indeed one of the big reasons people hate WOW. I would like to see it fall too, I admit, but mostly because I feel it blocks innovation. Still, even tho I am a huge Star Wars fan, and even if all good comes true about SWTOR, I still do not expect it cause a serious dent into WOW. Humans are creatures of habit. They eat the same food they are used to, come there whatever there be.
I think WOW will have another 5-6 years on its height of power and only time itself will render it obsolete someday. Humans are lemmings. Many just stick to what everbody else does.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Nothing wrong with that, if people want to eat the same food, drink the same drink and play the same game they've played for years. It's not my idea of fun, but that's different for everybody.
But to stay in the heavy metal analogy, it can be very annoying if people try to convince you that a mainstream band as Bon Jovi is the best there is, that everything that came before it sucks, and that other rock bands are shitty too. Good for you if you like Bon Jovi but there's a whole world of diversity out there to enjoy.
But I think that a lot of the most fanatic WoW posters are actually conscious or subconscious trolls, they just love to gloat. Enthusiasm for the game you play is fine, but I cannot imagine why people who love gaming are happy if other MMO's suck or who would like to see upcoming MMO's fail or do less well as WoW.
And if people fail to see that other MMO's have merits that can outdo WoW, well, that's their loss.
Me, I love gaming and I love MMO gaming, so I would love to see a large variety of successful games and MMO's to be around.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I have discovered many many years ago that the people who go out of their way to cram something down your throat are only really doing so as a means to convince themselves why they like it.
My sister for example: She went on this Tofu kick a few years back. If it was made with Tofu, she ate it. And everytime you ate something else in front of her that wasn't Tofu, she would preach about how the Tofu version was soo much better for you and how all these celebs were into it. She would go as far as to segway a conversation to the topic of food only so she could mention how much better a Tofu burger tastes compaired to real hamburgers. She has since given up on the Tofu fad (after 2 years) and claims to not remember ever trying to convince any of us that Tofu Burgers tasted because in her own words "They tasted bland..."
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
This is probably the most accurate post in the whole thread, including the original article. Ms. Skelton is looking for something in a form that is not likely to happen. In the software world there is a point where a product or rather a brand achieves critical mass, and it becomes extremely dificult to unseat. WoW hit that critical mass. They did it by leveraging the developers reputation from several previous games that had a very very broad market appeal. So WoW pulled in millions of non MMO players/purchasers. But here's the problem for those that come after. For most of those WoW is synonomous with MMO. MMO is synonomous for WoW. THAT is the elephant in the room. And no matter how you cut it, or what your new shiny MMO is, unless you have a path to leverage a new branch of MMO player you are simply canibalizing the existing MMO playerbase. Which essentially means you are trying to grab these millions of new MMO players that WoW brought in with "Buy me I'm like WoW", which is a guaranteed recipe for second place and limited growth. Now when you add in "Buy me! I'm like WoW, but I cost an order of magnitude more to make!" there is no way this can be a profitable or succesful business model.
Right now the only subscription MMO on the horizon that has any hope of leveraging a new group might be SW:TOR. It is from Bioware, which has a good following for many succesful games accross multiple platforms, and it is targeted at SW fans. But it has some issues in its way as well. Blizzard hit a weird dynamic with their success. Something that they probably did not plan for and I doubt anyone could possibly duplicate. That group that they pulled in gamers from was not really the RPG/MMO comunity. They were pulling from fans of their Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft RTS series. So they were actually pulling in players that were not real familiar with MMO's. Bioware is a straight RPG maker. While they are the best RPG maker out there. Their fan base that is not already crossover MMO players is nowhere near as large. At least not in the PC market. RPG players tend to already be familiar with MMO's and alreadt either love them or hate them. There simply is less margin for those who might try. Add to this a somewhat jaded sense to any Star Wars game that does not have "lego" in the name and a concern that SW:TOR is already so grossly over inflated in development costs that even doing WoW type numbers does not guarantee success, and it is far from even a likely "WoW killer".
On the non subscription side keep an eye on Guild Wars 2. Once again a good more casual fan base a tendancy to be bought on a whim off the shelf, a reasonably decent reputation. And alot of flexibility to leverage newer business models.
Ultimately, much like Windows, and MS Office, a WoW killer will not appear until or unless the platform itself changes. If someone figures out how to do real MMO gameplay on an advanced console platform such as an Xbox or PS3, then you will see something. But until then it will be at best a foot race against a motorcycle.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
I'd call this bollocks.
Analogies will always fail as a complete representation, but since we're at it, I'd say WoW is more like an Internet Explorer than an Office or Windows. An Internet Explorer where there are browsers as good as or better than IE, even if still a large group is using IE. Or more like a very popular tv show.
Why?
Because in contrast to Windows or Office where you're almost forced to work with it (bc of work, school, or bc it's alrdy installed on your new PC), you don't have to choose to play WoW if you want to play a MMO. Because you play WoW or any MMO out of fun, not because you need to, and like all fun things you don't just watch only 1 tv-show however popular that is, you watch whatever show that you find entertaining at the moment.
And if there hadn't been 5-6 million Chinese who'd adopted WoW as well, the sub numbers would already show that a lot of WoW players have grown tired after maybe years of playing WoW. I mean, wouldn't you after playing 1 game for years, whatever game that is? I certainly would, however good that game is. And I certainly wouldn't watch the same tv-show over and over again and nothing else. But that's my idea of what's fun and what not.
Basically, the comparison with Windows or Office is lacking because no matter how tired or bored you might get with Windows or Office, you'll still use it because fun is not why you use those, you use them because there's a need of them.
People who say that WoW is all that matters regarding MMO's always seem to me like people trying to convince others that you should only watch CSI, or only go to McDonald's for eating outdoors. Nice for them if that's how they like it, but not for me.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Great Article. All i gotta say is, Cataclysm, Rift, And Star wars: Old republic, is guna be the biggest Head to Head Clash on supremacy we have ever seen, They all have good Basis, and they will all have good graphics (WoW is upgrading there graphics again), and they will all have New and more intense stuff then ever. We will see what happens hopefully in 2011. If all goes as said, they will be releaseing Back to Back, causing a epic shift in MMO's
Oh and Also not Forgetting FFX IV, and Guild Wars 2, they will also help in the Shifting off MMO's
Lucky b'astard, then
And yeah, RPGs are picking up again. Been wary of Risen, though, after the huge disappointment that was Gothic 3, but I guess it's time to pick up the latest patches and take it for a spin. (PB doesn't make true RPGs, or course, but this is not a day and age in which I can afford to be a purist 
)
I have been beta testing (closed betas mind you) a few new and upcoming MMOs. I can say that both the subscription & F2P games are quickly goin to show the masses that they have something "new and improved" to offer us. I have pretty much called my WoW account a dead wash now. I may pop in after Cata goes live to see just what the fuss is about. Maybe. I might also just not even bother. One of the closed betas I'm workin with should go to public beta or even Live launch in the next couple months. It's F2P, has stunning graphics, a strong and healthy lore/story line and quest system. Not to mention a decent PVP setup for those who get into that kinda thing.
For those who worry that F2P means a pirate in your wallet takin real life money from you--to provide some sort of "edge" on other players, fear not. The only thing of serious note in the cash shop are costumes, universal chat (means across mult. servers) and cosmetic mounts. (mounts that just look cool, but are no faster than typical mounts from in the game already)
While the new stuff might not be the proverbial WoW-killer, they are certainly goin to offer everyone something "new" and unexplored. If you are tired of leveling alts in the same old same old areas and story lines and tired server drama and all that jazz, give a crack at the new kids coming around. You might find something you like.
It's not the elephant that matters it's the sheep that follow it around like it's a
Messiah.
Elephant says and sheeps do.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
Is the sheep arguement all you can say? Just because people enjoy a game you don't, that makes them sheep?
As for wow, all I can say is, that as long as the new mmos commning our are good and I can find one that I enjoy, couldn't care less about wow. If people continue to like it they should keep on playing it.
Why can't ppl just accept it that BLizzard has done a fantastic job with WOW. The game is spot on built on very solid vision and it is able to maintain that vision. PPL like it .. and they play it. They dont have to be previous Warcraft fans or Blizzard worshipers. THey are gamers that want to play games.
Look at Mythic now. They got two successfull MMOs under their belt and everyone was thinking WAR would be the next big thinkg in MMOs. But Mythic screwed up big time. There is not a basic logic about that game at all. There is no vision - just random bug fixing on issues that are so badly designed and executed - that nothing can fix that mess now.
BLizzard could have failed horribly with WOW. They did not - but instead created something Massive with solid gameplay that ppl enjoy. And it has taken off BECAUSE it is well done and works. I promise you that WOW would have died long time ago if it had Mythic in charge - or the Funcom PR team that is NOTHING but the PR.
I'm so tired of stories about games that have potential to do this or that. These five games have the potential to kill wow. These games have awesome potential in their new mechanics. This company is awesome so the game has the potential to kick ass. This IP has so much potential for an mmo. blah blah blah
Enough already. Year after year it is the same bullshit shoveled around about game x going to be awesome only to watch it crash and burn in horrific fashion. Why on earth do we need yet another article filled with hype and potential of this game or that?
Hows about we start paying more attention to what we do have until some developer actually delivers on these grand promises?
The reason the elephant exists at all is because so few games have come anywhere close to their potential. The more we build up expectations the harder it is going to be for a developer to deliver anything close to those assumptions. Even when a game does deliver something decent it gets murdered for not delivering enough.
Really I am tired of being fed hype and potential for new games. I don't think it is doing the developers any favors and it certainly hasn't worked out well for players.