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Major problem with this IP
smitty0356
Member Posts: 368
I'm pretty sure there will be an imbalanced number of jedi...
I played MXO and LoTRO, so I have a little perspective about what players tend to do with a strong IP like this, and I know not EVERYONE will be a jedi, but I have a feeling it will be very lame as to just how many there are. Then, because there are so many of them, the perpetual whine about nerfs and OP classes causes the game to cater to them which perpetuates the jedi problem.
Let me just tell a story quick about mxo... there were more zionists than machines, because there were 3 million N30 clones and morfeeeus's, that it just threw the game into a tail spin... imagine if there were more jedi than stormtroopers in starwars... Their advantage was in their numbers. The effect was the same with the "legolas/legoloin/lego-fill-in-the-rest" class in LoTRO. People complained so much that their legolas wasn't as good as in the movie until they got anti-nerfed to the top of the food chain in pvp.
Just saying, I hope they have some great plan for keeping the populations in check or we will see hordes of darth vaders and darth mauls running around zerging people.
I was right about the n30's, the legolas's, the destruction zerg on WAR, and I'll be right about this
Elite poster by 82
Comments
Considering half the classes are force users, there is not doubt jedi/sith will be the majority of players. However, don't think that will stay true as people play and figure out what classes they really want to play.
This concern has been stated many times. No need for a new thread for each person.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
I can see what you are saying because Bioware is going to try and make all of the classes balanced to start, which will disappoint many of the force users when they find out that, being specialized classes, they are out DPS'd by the other classes. We can only hope that Bioware is resolute enough to stick to their original design when faced with cries that Bounty Hunters are OP or Sith Warriors need 'love'.
Last poll I saw, there are going to be more Troopers than Jedi Knights (though Jedi Consulars are quite popular). I'm one of them. Even if it's unbalanced at launch, because you can't really deny that Force users have an aura of "awesome," it'll balance out.
It helps to think that you'll be playing not "just" a trooper or agent, you're supposed to be an elite trooper, one among the best troopers, agents, smugglers, you name it.
Even in the movies, a Jedi could be defeated or countered by a bounty hunter.
The cannon fodder of all the troopers or Republic soldiers and such will be provided by the NPC's of course, the fights between players will be like the battles between champions of their side or trade.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Probably at first but so what. This game is happening at a time when the Jedi were alot more prevalent and under different rules than they were during the time of Palpatine. For the game setting, it makes sense. And besides, its fun. This game is NOT meant to be like SWG.
Not to mention the story is set in a time when there was an abundance of force users on both sides. This is on the verge of one of the greater force wars. It cannot really equate to the more known period of time we are more accustomed to from the movies. A period when the sith were though defeated for a thousand years and the Jedi were exceptioanlly choosy about who they let in their club. Even less after, when there were few Jedi left and only two Sith hell bent on destroying them all. The era of The Old Republic is 3,000 years before that, when they were abundant. It is also true that BioWare has been clear the other classes will be just as potent and will have their own unique abilities. I will likely have a force user because the force, and how its used, is at the center of the struggle... but I intend for my main alt to be a Smuggler. I fell in love when I saw the video of the class and the smuggler kicked his enemy in the junk and then shot him in the face. Too groovy.
Let's not invent problems before the game even releases.
Balancing power with 'cool' has got to be one of the toughest jobs in making an MMO.
In the IP (and I'm talking movie era here, not old republic), Jedi and Sith are going to be far more powerful than average characters. In the IP, that is balanced by the rarity and the long training required. Those are both very difficult to simulate in an MMO.
I think it was a mistake to have so many force classes in the game. One light side, and one Dark would have been sufficient; with a talent build/spec determining sub-class. I would have gone with two different types of memberships - Jedi/Sith, which could have one character of each total; and mundane, which allowed a full roster of any of the other classes.
Another issue in MMOs in general, is that many players choose their character based on appearance, and then suffer when the mechanics/playstyle of that class does not suit them. I would deal with that (and it's only really practical in an original IP) by presenting players with two choices - image, and playstyle. WoW does a decent job with a few classes - Rogue, Hunter, and Warrior play fairly differently if you put an effort into designing them in the talent tree. However, it has hybrid classes which are terriible for overall class balance, and DPS casters don't play that much differently based on build.
Give players a choice of how their character looks, then a choice of how it plays. This is a major reason to avoid having racial restrictions on classes.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
What do you suggest we talk about then? Aren't there enough "OMG! This game SO going to ROCK!" threads, now?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I'm sure that Jedi/Sith will be the most popular class. However, all MMOs have a class that is popular, and far outnumbers others. In WOW its the Paladin/Hunter. In EQ its the ranger. The problem only arises if the Jedi/Sith are overpowered, imo.
I'll agree with that. Appearance is one of the reasons I don't like the Trooper class, being that it's the basic trooper armor that we've pretty much seen everywhere in the IP no matter what era it's set in. Giving me the option of dying my armor different colors and having 'prestige' parts that can be added or removed without defense penalty would go a long way toward making the class more appealing. I have a feeling, and it's just a feeling mind you, that this game is going to suffer in the customization area.
Given that these are supposed to be 'Super' Troopers, your suggestion is a good one.
Given that the greater the customization of appearance is - the greater the demands on the engine and video card, I think you might be right about the latter point, as well. The more distinct and varied each character can look - the greater the performance demands.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I find this whole arguement kind of silly. It's as if your argument stems from the conception all players will have only one toon.
Of course everyone will have a jedi/sith. In wow everyone has a bllod elf paladin and a feral druid. In eq2 everyone has a shadowknight. In CO everyone has 3 toons that teleport. In War everyone has a warpriest or dok.
So what? They won't all be online as the same toons at the same time. People will play other classes for variety and to contribute to group functions.
Do you think things through before you post, or just type crap to troll or "talk to hear yourself talk"?
In addition greater character customization does not mean success or failure so much. It really will come down to gameplay. For instance the last two Cryptic releases have had enormous customization of charaters in them. The game play has had a ton of complaints though and thus they haven't done as well as hoped. Where as LoTRO doesnt have much by way of customization and is fairly limited. Yet its going into its third year and still has a strong playerbase because the story is fantastic and the gameplay is pretty good. I know its all relative and subjective really. I imagine though that BioWare will, to a degree, have customization because they do in their RPG games, but it wont be a lot. They tend to focus more on setting, story and game play in their games. We will see though! Can't know for sure until release.
I'm curious.. have you even been reading this forum? There are very few "this game is going to rock" threads. There are alot of "this game is going to rock" threads on the official forums, but mmorpg is NOT the official forums.
More than one is too many.
When you eliminate "I see a problem" threads, what is left?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Most of the counterpoints make good sense, but the fact will remain that people will pick up this box at a best buy with hopes of being a jedi.... People on these forums are usually not indicitive of the actual bulk of what defines a game. There were millions of order v destruction polls that showed various statistical suprises, but the fact remains, that at launch, the hordes of Chosen were definately present.
Don't get me wrong, there will be some fet-lovers and people who long to be different or min/max'rs will chose to be other classes, but I don't think anyone will buy the game to be like han-solo, and unfortunately that sort of mentality drives sales in a market with IP's like this one.
It is a bit silly to dream up problems before launch, but it has been a re-occurring problem for many games at launch that has totally turned games upside down. (just log on to mxo and look what happened to them).
I personally love the IP, and I would love to be a jedi just like anyone else, but I know my tutorial zones will be loaded, there won't be any support classes, and the pvp will suck with an all jedi team. (if you remember when the new classes released in WAR, the scenarios were loaded with all of a single class on both sides!! it was rediculous... 32 tank melee...) but that is a tangent...
Bottom line, they will likely have to make a concession where it is harder to level a sith, or they are extremely well balanced, or they do not make a great team without some of the outlying classes.
Let me just say it as lamely as possible: if you can make sith healer/tanks/dps and an all sith team rocks, then DOOOOOOOOOM!!!
Elite poster by 82
As has already been stated, the game is set about 3000 years prior to the films. Even in the prequel films, Jedi were in abundance (until the end of the last one). A high number of Force users fits the timeline (unlike in SWG), so it is less of a canon issue in TOR than in other Star Wars releases. In fact, in the timeline of TOR, low numbers of Force users would be a canon continuity problem. Personally, I plan to play a Trooper and an Agent, but will also have Force users on both sides - I just don't plan on making the Force users my main characters.
Regarding MxO, which I also played, the disparity in numbers is simple: the films were written in such a way as to present Zion as the heroes and the Machines as the villains - a very black-and-white notion for the theme of the Matrix, in my opinion. Cypher's character was written and acted - deliberately, in my opinion - in such a way as to present the character in an unsympathetic light. The Merovingian also comes across in the films (in my opinion) as less than sympathetic (though the aptly-named Persephone is presented a bit more sympathetically, in my opinion). MMOs, as a general rule, are presented in such a way as to make the player "feel" heroic, which may account for the imbalance in the numbers of Zionists versus Machinists/Merovingians in that game (counting, of course, Cypherites as Machinists and EPN as Zionites).
Hunters were absurdly over-the-top for a long time in LoTRO. My main is a champion, but I do have several alts and one is a hunter. I can't speak to PvMP in LoTRO because I don't bother with it, but there have been some (very necessary, in my opinion) nerfs to the class that have affected PvE play over the years (now if only they would nerf all the variants on Legolas people try to use to name their characters). There is a fine line between "heroic" and "grossly overpowered," I believe, but at least it is something they've worked on instead of leaving it as it was. It is extraordinarily rare that I will agree with nerfing a class - whether I play that class or not - but in the case of the LoTRO hunter, it was most certainly warranted.
Still, I don't necessarily see a need to "keep (Force user) populations in check" in TOR. High populations of Force users fit into the timeline the game takes place in, there are counters to the Force user classes (Bounty Hunters for one, as mentioned previously, also I suspect other classes that are skilled and devious enough to try new things may be able to survive the encounter, even if it's not an encounter they wish to have every day) and, as BioWare has stated more than once, the emphasis in TOR will not be on PvP - the game may have a PvP aspect, but PvP is not the focus or the goal.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Not only are there alot of force users, but force users are essentially shock troopers in this time period. Not every force user has had extensive training, or was handpicked. Some weren't that amazing or that devastatingly powerful, not every jedi or sith is a god espescially not during this time. So it makes sense that they would be equal.
Well if you get upset because ppl call themselves after some of the characters within the film then your not really paying much attention to the game now are you.
So what if you have thousands of legolas running around, and by the way there aren't, what really has it got to do with you? unless ofc you want to play as legolas1234567 yourself, otherwise why get all excited over something that really isn't your decision, ppl make their own choices for themselves, leave them to do it without ranting and raving at them that they can't.
As for WAR having destro zergs, well I hazve to laugh when I see new ppl join the game who ask "Is this server balanced" whereby most ppl will say "NOOOO Order own us" I then go onto my other account which is order and see the exact same things asked and the response is "NOOOO Destro own us", no matter what side your on you think yours is the minority.
When SWG went live everyone was concerned that ppl would be nothing but Jedi's once it was unlocked, didn't happen, there was a damn good spread of classes and it stayed like that until most of us quit after the NGE and CU.
Most of your concerns are based on urban myths, in reality ppl play what they are used to in the past, I have always played a support role, I'l do so in SWTOR aswell.
I doubt it will be the extreme that you think it will.
It will be fine, it will be the perfect game where everything is perfect. Help in creating this perfect world by willing it to happen with your thoughts. Since you can see the future this won't be a stretch.
It totally makes sense that it would be equal, and I don't think they should limit the numbers, or make a disadvantage to the class just because it is cool, but something has to make the other classes "more attractive" so that you don't see the following things happen:
1. "LFM for rift, have 3 hunters, lf healer, tank" - SW equivalent "LFM for ____, have 1000 sith, need anything else"
2. My n30 feels gimp, neo never got stunned in mxo (cc complaint about melee classes)
3. all melee classes are gimp (champions online)
4. need/greed meltdowns when a valuable lightsaber drops
5. the destruction zerg (WAR) - SW equivalent- Sith zerg
6 MOST FEARED: if the ALL SITH team is a better balance than the ALL JEDI team, then there will be a huge tactical advantage programmed into the game that the dev's would have no idea about. IE. A sith melee, caster, support works better as a team that the JEDI melee/caster/support, then there will be more potent sith teams, thus accidental synergy and imbalance.
Elite poster by 82
The OP's concerns would matter if this was a going to be a virtual world but it's not. Its gonna be a story game. Each player is gonna be too busy ploughing through their own "personal" copy of the game to really notice what anyone else is doing. Occasionally in the shared areas they will see other jedis standing around whacking things over the head with glowing sticks and then they will just shrug and get back to playing their own copy of the game.
I think this is very likely to be true.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
the Lego----- and Ara----- etc etc etc have been in every mmo ever. Its not just LoTRO. They were in UO, NWN, M59, etc etc etc. Of course there will be a huge number of jedi and sith, but there will also be a helluva lot of smugglers and bounty hunters too. They do not need to "keep the populations in check" the jedi in SWTOR do not appear to be the alpha class that they initially were in SWG or the alpha class that DKs were when wrath first came out. Here's a little heads up for you, there will be legolas' and aragorn's and skywalkers, and every other fuptard fantasy and sci fi character name ever made that will be used by people in EVERY SINGLE MMORPG FROM NOW TIL THE END OF TIME.
Matrix Online wasn't hurt so much by the neos and morpheus' as it was by piss poor management, poor game design, and SOE's picking it up for no reason than to get the rights to DC Comics.
Your being "right" about something obvious doesn't make you omniscient, get over yourself.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012