Playing mmos together - seperately

Amathe

I have watched over the years at an amazing trend in mmo gaming. It's the idea that people seem now to want to play with other people without being affected by anything other people do and without needing anything they offer.

 

Here are some examples (generally speaking, there are of course some exceptions):

 

Tagging:  You strike the mob first, it's all yours. No one else can get any credit for assisting you.

Dungeons: We all have our very own now. No other group can enter our dungeon.

Trains: They are gone. If someone else pulls mobs, they will walk right by you as if you don't exist.

Rez: You don't need one from another player. There is no xp loss and you can run right back.

Corpse retrieval: Not even relevant anymore, so you don't need a class that can help locate a corpse or help you get it back.

Tracking: You have a gps map. Rangers aren't needed.

Crafting: "High level" crafters are almost gone. Sure they can make a few nice things, but they are no longer necessary.

Trading: You never even meet the person you are selling to or buying from.

Travel: You don't need that druid or mage port like you used to, because you have your own hearthstone, flying mount, etc. etc.

Raids: Much fewer people needed than in the past. Even in the same games.

Soloing: Commonplace.

Epic quests that need lots of help from others: Gone

Your server reputation: Screw it up, change your name or change servers.

XP groups: Most folks don't even know what that is anymore.

 

The list goes on. The point is not whether this is good or bad. But rather that people don't really need other people much anymore. They don't even have that many reasons to interact. And what other players do has little to no affect on us.

 

In City of Heroes there is a talent where you can put yourself in a bubble. Some bubbles reduce damage, others prevent it alltogether for a while. You look kind of silly in a bubble, but I digress. These days I always feel like I am in a bubble, no matter what game (assuming it's PvE). No one else can touch me. No one else can even affect me. Others pass by me, but they are irrelevant to me, and I to them.

 

Was that really the goal? Did we want to play with thousands of other people so long as they all leave us alone and so long as we won't ever need them, or they us?

ScalperOne

In a sense it is a reflection of society. We have forgotten we need each other and the need had arisen to do all by ourselves.

JoshBob

I have to say I'm really tired of this trend. MMOs are turning into single player games- there are other players but they are in the background and have absolutely no effect on you whatsoever. Parties and Raids don't mean as much, you'll do just fine alone, and as such, nobody wants to party with anyone unless they have to. 

GTwander

People put too much RL emphasis on games these days. The act of running around alone, and avoiding dealing with others is directly related to how people act in public. When you are in a zone and all the players are off doing their own thing, generally being silent, it's no different than walking into a grocery store and observing their behavior. The only times someone will approach another is if they have something they want, or are attractive. The same applies to how it works in the produce isle.

uquipu

It's a customer service thing.
.
Customer service is an MMOs biggest expense after launch, well for pay to plays.
.
Trains and people stealing mobs caused customer service complaints which cost the company money.
.
Much of what you see in today's MMOs was brought about by reducing customer service costs.

Alberel

The funny thing is that people are complaining that MMOs are becoming stale and repetitive but the reason for that is because there is no longer any possibility of variety being added to the game by other players. The whole concept of MMOs was that most of the fun content was derived from player interaction but that's now gone and left us with repetitive quests to solo all day long and an occasional raid or PvP arena match.

Ironically whenever anyone suggests allowing players to impact another player's experience they scream that the game will fail because apparently everyone will do nothing but grief each other 24/7. WoW is probably the worst offender for propagating this mentality as well.

People really need to realise that player interaction and community building are the keys to keeping MMOs entertaining.

FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by Amathe

I have watched over the years at an amazing trend in mmo gaming. It's the idea that people seem now to want to play with other people without being affected by anything other people do and without needing anything they offer.

 

Here are some examples (generally speaking, there are of course some exceptions):

 

Tagging:  You strike the mob first, it's all yours. No one else can get any credit for assisting you.

Dungeons: We all have our very own now. No other group can enter our dungeon.

Trains: They are gone. If someone else pulls mobs, they will walk right by you as if you don't exist.

Rez: You don't need one from another player. There is no xp loss and you can run right back.

Corpse retrieval: Not even relevant anymore, so you don't need a class that can help locate a corpse or help you get it back.

Tracking: You have a gps map. Rangers aren't needed.

Crafting: "High level" crafters are almost gone. Sure they can make a few nice things, but they are no longer necessary.

Trading: You never even meet the person you are selling to or buying from.

Travel: You don't need that druid or mage port like you used to, because you have your own hearthstone, flying mount, etc. etc.

Raids: Much fewer people needed than in the past. Even in the same games.

Soloing: Commonplace.

Epic quests that need lots of help from others: Gone

Your server reputation: Screw it up, change your name or change servers.

XP groups: Most folks don't even know what that is anymore.

 

The list goes on. The point is not whether this is good or bad. But rather that people don't really need other people much anymore. They don't even have that many reasons to interact. And what other players do has little to no affect on us.

 

In City of Heroes there is a talent where you can put yourself in a bubble. Some bubbles reduce damage, others prevent it alltogether for a while. You look kind of silly in a bubble, but I digress. These days I always feel like I am in a bubble, no matter what game (assuming it's PvE). No one else can touch me. No one else can even affect me. Others pass by me, but they are irrelevant to me, and I to them.

 

Was that really the goal? Did we want to play with thousands of other people so long as they all leave us alone and so long as we won't ever need them, or they us?

 When I pay the guy at the gas station to fill up my car, I don't really care about what is going on in his life nor I am interested in anything more  than the gas station interaction.

Torak

Originally posted by Amathe

I have watched over the years at an amazing trend in mmo gaming. It's the idea that people seem now to want to play with other people without being affected by anything other people do and without needing anything they offer.

 

Here are some examples (generally speaking, there are of course some exceptions):

 

Tagging:  You strike the mob first, it's all yours. No one else can get any credit for assisting you. 

You can kill steal in DAoC, AC, L2 and many others

Dungeons: We all have our very own now. No other group can enter our dungeon.

There are public dungeons DAoC, Vanguard, AC and L2 just to name a few

Trains: They are gone. If someone else pulls mobs, they will walk right by you as if you don't exist.

Still can do that. Lineage 2 also has that, AC has it. The thing with trains is they were commonly used to exploit the XP systems.

Rez: You don't need one from another player. There is no xp loss and you can run right back.

DAoC you take an XP hit, L2 you can delevel, AC you leave a corpse with all your stuff, FFXI you can delevel, many games still have stiff penalties for death.

Corpse retrieval: Not even relevant anymore, so you don't need a class that can help locate a corpse or help you get it back.

DAoC you can regain much of your lost XP by retrieving your tomestone, AC has corpse runs, Lineage 2 you drop items on death sometimes into the gameworld and others can pick them up.

Tracking: You have a gps map. Rangers aren't needed.

Not sure what you are talking about here. Most people back in the days before built in maps...printed them out off the internet.

Crafting: "High level" crafters are almost gone. Sure they can make a few nice things, but they are no longer necessary.

Again, not true in most older games. DAoC, AC, L2, UO, SWG...the best stuff is still crafted.

Trading: You never even meet the person you are selling to or buying from.

That has been the case for a long time, even UO had merchants (1997), AC is the only game I think of without an automated trade mechanic. And standing around spamming "WTS "X" for 10 M notes" for hours, really wasn't all that fun.

Travel: You don't need that druid or mage port like you used to, because you have your own hearthstone, flying mount, etc. etc.

Blah, blah

Raids: Much fewer people needed than in the past. Even in the same games.

Who came up with "40" as a good number of people for a raid? SOE. It was a stupid amount of people and no fantasy / sci-fi genre literature support it. It was an arbitary number. It made no sense. Epic adventure stories rarely have more then the main character and maybe a handful of his friends. Usually it's just the main character. So...the old MMO standard of 40 people was actually contary to the literature standard of "epic"

Soloing: Commonplace. 

It's always been "common" UO people "macroed" skills in 1997, the stereotypical "standing in a corner killing the same mob over and over" has been around for a decade now.

Epic quests that need lots of help from others: Gone

Untrue, most game still have "Epic quest" they just call them raids now.

Your server reputation: Screw it up, change your name or change servers.

Yeah and....?

XP groups: Most folks don't even know what that is anymore.

 Again, untrue depending on the game

The list goes on. The point is not whether this is good or bad. But rather that people don't really need other people much anymore. They don't even have that many reasons to interact. And what other players do has little to no affect on us.

 

In City of Heroes there is a talent where you can put yourself in a bubble. Some bubbles reduce damage, others prevent it alltogether for a while. You look kind of silly in a bubble, but I digress. These days I always feel like I am in a bubble, no matter what game (assuming it's PvE). No one else can touch me. No one else can even affect me. Others pass by me, but they are irrelevant to me, and I to them.

 

Was that really the goal? Did we want to play with thousands of other people so long as they all leave us alone and so long as we won't ever need them, or they us?

It all depends on the game you play. 

Dark Age of Camelot still has almost all of that including item deterioration.

 

People run off to the shiny new look for what they already have...whatcha gonna do?

Support games that have the mechanics you want. Stop running off and dropping 50 bucks on the new release you already know isn't going to have these features.

I play DAoC and I can't do sh*t alone. The game is alive and well on 10 servers. many people share this view but play it everyday rather then look back at it. Join them.

 

pojung

Originally posted by Amathe

I have watched over the years at an amazing trend in mmo gaming. It's the idea that people seem now to want to play with other people without being affected by anything other people do and without needing anything they offer.

 

Here are some examples (generally speaking, there are of course some exceptions):

 

[Clipped list]

 

In City of Heroes there is a talent where you can put yourself in a bubble. Some bubbles reduce damage, others prevent it alltogether for a while. You look kind of silly in a bubble, but I digress. These days I always feel like I am in a bubble, no matter what game (assuming it's PvE). No one else can touch me. No one else can even affect me. Others pass by me, but they are irrelevant to me, and I to them.

 

Was that really the goal? Did we want to play with thousands of other people so long as they all leave us alone and so long as we won't ever need them, or they us?

In a word: entitlement. The typical, albeit somewhat flawed argument is: if you're going to plan an MMO, play it with other people, otherwise just go play an RPG. The comeback being: I don't play to play with other people, I play for the feeling that the world is alive.

Which is fine, but yet.... they want their cake and to eat it too. They want to partake in the world, but not give anything back.

But that's fine too. I'm not faulting that angle. Everyone has their preferences.

The fault is this slow progression towards this phenomon that you list. And the fact that games, being designed this way, fail to allow or promote (which ends up being the same thing) alternate styles. The options real estate is dwindling.

I don't think it was the goal. It was the natural evolution of the industry in the sense that... well, there were indeed tedious elements to games back in 2002, 2003... and the next crop improved on them, reduced some of the nonsense. But as things continued forward, and all this 'progress' took place, some of those 'necessary nonsenses' (or necessary evils if you will) also got clipped, increasingly so as time progressed. And so the trend of progress continues, but rather than heading towards the right balance, it passed it, and kept going.

I don't think it was ever the goal. We're social creatures after all.

Netzoko

Originally posted by Torak

Originally posted by Amathe

*snip*

It all depends on the game you play. 

Dark Age of Camelot still has almost all of that including item deterioration.

 

People run off to the shiny new look for what they already have...whatcha gonna do?

Support games that have the mechanics you want. Stop running off and dropping 50 bucks on the new release you already know isn't going to have these features.

I play DAoC and I can't do sh*t alone. The game is alive and well on 10 servers. many people share this view but play it everyday rather then look back at it. Join them.

 

 

lol... is that a sincere reply or a giant advertisment for Daoc?

Seriously... you're quite the salesman for Mythic.

Torak

Originally posted by Netzoko

Originally posted by Torak

Originally posted by Amathe

*snip*

It all depends on the game you play. 

Dark Age of Camelot still has almost all of that including item deterioration.

 

People run off to the shiny new look for what they already have...whatcha gonna do?

Support games that have the mechanics you want. Stop running off and dropping 50 bucks on the new release you already know isn't going to have these features.

I play DAoC and I can't do sh*t alone. The game is alive and well on 10 servers. many people share this view but play it everyday rather then look back at it. Join them.

 

 

lol... is that a sincere reply or a giant advertisment for Daoc?

Seriously... you're quite the salesman for Mythic.

Yeah, it's pretty unusual to actually like a game and point point out it's positive aspects on this site, ain't it?

warmaster670

Originally posted by Torak

People run off to the shiny new look for what they already have...whatcha gonna do?

Support games that have the mechanics you want. Stop running off and dropping 50 bucks on the new release you already know isn't going to have these features.

 

This, people love to bitch about these features but dont play the games that have them, its tehre own fault.

Loktofeit

Originally posted by Amathe

I have watched over the years at an amazing trend in mmo gaming. It's the idea that people seem now to want to play with other people without being affected by anything other people do and without needing anything they offer.

It's called "standard human behaviour." Social butterflies are not the norm. In most bars or clubs, the majority are either interacting with the friends they came with or alone and content just being in a crowd.

uquipu

Topic seems like yet another nostalgic look at EQ1 while omparing it to WoW.
.
EQ1 had forced grouping. EQ1 had tons of downtime. Do we really want to return to those days?
.
WoW, you have guilds. Join a guild of like minded people and you can talk to them the whole time you are on. You need help? Ask the guild. Want to go to a dungeon? Team up with some guildies.
.
Guilds have replaced much of the EQ downtime and forced grouping. Good riddance.

Azureal

I tried explaining the concept of an XP group to my wife last night. Hell, I even used the Crused Forest in DAoC (Hib side) as an example. She just couldnt grasp the idea of a group of people standing in the same spot for hours on end killing the same monsters non stop solely for exp.

 

 

Axehilt

GTWander had one of the better answers, really.  Yes, this is what people want.  They want to maximize the good interactions with others while minimizing the bad ones.

Early MMORPGs had a retardedly high amount of bad interactions with other people (and in general a large number of poorly-designed game mechanics.) Modern MMORPGs limit the bad interactions, leaving mostly the good interactions (although admittedly there's less interaction overall.)  There's still plenty of room for game designs which optimize this further, but people have little patience for games which waste players' time with excessive amounts of bad social interactions.

Loot ninjas and teamkillers are not fun, period.  The OP's list extends beyond these extremes into the grayer area, but the majority of features he lists are not fun for similar reasons.

warmaster670

Originally posted by Azureal

 She just couldnt grasp the idea of a group of people standing in the same spot for hours on end killing the same monsters non stop solely for exp.

 

 

You know why that is? because its boring, and most people who did it only did it because they HAD to.

Dibdabs

Tagging:  You strike the mob first, it's all yours. No one else can get any credit for assisting you.

Good.  They also can't steal a mob you've been working your way towards for a quest or specific loot.

Dungeons: We all have our very own now. No other group can enter our dungeon.

See above.

Trains: They are gone. If someone else pulls mobs, they will walk right by you as if you don't exist.

Good.  These understandable, if a genuine mistake, but were inevitably used to grief people.

Rez: You don't need one from another player. There is no xp loss and you can run right back.

Yes, I dislike that myself.

Corpse retrieval: Not even relevant anymore, so you don't need a class that can help locate a corpse or help you get it back.

Another thing I dislike, because on those corpse runs many people helped each other out in case they ever found themselves needing help in the future.  Thus are thriving in-game Communities born.

Tracking: You have a gps map. Rangers aren't needed.

Every game I've played, if you haven't a Track skill you can't use the map to track things, merely to show where you are.

Crafting: "High level" crafters are almost gone. Sure they can make a few nice things, but they are no longer necessary.

In too many games the really good stuff is only usable by the crafter, and in any case, nothing you make is usually worth the cost of the materials you used.

Trading: You never even meet the person you are selling to or buying from.

While I liked the Tunnel in the Commanlands in EQ1, it sometimes took waaaay to long to find someone selling what you needed.  It was fun, but ultimately too time consuming.  There's nothing to actually stop you making arrangements to meet the person in-game and trade with them, should you be inclined to do so.

Travel: You don't need that druid or mage port like you used to, because you have your own hearthstone, flying mount, etc. etc.

Amen to that!  I remember how pissed I was after getting my Druid in EQ to the point where I could Teleprt players to other zones, making a bit of money in donations and generally making my clas feel useful... Then Plane of Knowledge was released.    Wizards were equally pissed off.

Raids: Much fewer people needed than in the past. Even in the same games.

Can't comment here, as I loathe raiding.

Soloing: Commonplace.

Mainly because games don't have Death Penalties now.  You die, who cares, these days.  I take on tougher mobs, risking death more often, because I get more xp by myself and risk diddly-squat doing so.  That eliminates in-game Community at a swoop.

Epic quests that need lots of help from others: Gone

Partly because people often skip them and go back at a higher level to solo it or do it with maybe one other person with a higher-level character, as they boost you.  Partly because there isn't much in the way of in-game Communities these days, and partly because too many players are incompetent, whiny ninja-looters.

Your server reputation: Screw it up, change your name or change servers.

I'm not really bothered about this.  Everyone can screw up once, and in any case, if they are a habitual screw-up, at least the asshole is no longer on your server! 

XP groups: Most folks don't even know what that is anymore.

See 'Soloing: Commonplace' reply.

 

in essence, companies know that players want to vault up levels at an insane rate and thus get strut their stuff to the lowbies, so they pander to it and make uber money.  Ironically, the aforementioned lowbies will be vaulting levels themselves in order to do the same, and will very shortly be struttting their stuff too - then the race is on to have the most characters at max level wearing the most uber gear.  Pretty funny, really.  I got more sense of achievement by learning "Spirit of the Wolf" as a lvl 14 Druid in EQ than I ever did hitting 80 in WoW.

A game with real risk and penalties, with levels that are hard to earn just wouldn't attract the big money these days, unfortunately.  Watch out any year now for a game with a big, red "I WIN" button right in the centre of the screen - it will make billions, I tell 'ya! 

Dibdabs

Originally posted by warmaster670

Originally posted by Azureal

 She just couldnt grasp the idea of a group of people standing in the same spot for hours on end killing the same monsters non stop solely for exp.

 

You know why that is? because its boring, and most people who did it only did it because they HAD to.

This is true.  Not everything "Old School" was good or even entertaining.  I remember having to wait a couple of days to even GET to a spot where we could stand for hours killing the same monsters for xp - Orc camps in East Commonlands, anyone?

druarc

Originally posted by Amathe

I have watched ...

Tagging:  You strike the mob first, it's all yours. No one else can get any credit for assisting you.

This was mainly to stop greifing through kill stealing, which was the bane of many games.

Dungeons: We all have our very own now. No other group can enter our dungeon.

Not completly true, yes some games have a lot of instances but not all.

Trains: They are gone. If someone else pulls mobs, they will walk right by you as if you don't exist.

Again this is to stop griefing, especially annoying when you added death penalties.

Rez: You don't need one from another player. There is no xp loss and you can run right back.

Most games do have some penalty for death, and some even have corpse runs still.

Corpse retrieval: Not even relevant anymore, so you don't need a class that can help locate a corpse or help you get it back.

See above.

Tracking: You have a gps map. Rangers aren't needed.

Depends rangers now track various other things, eg list of animals in the area.

Crafting: "High level" crafters are almost gone. Sure they can make a few nice things, but they are no longer necessary.

This really depends on the game, there are still games out there where crafters are useful.

Trading: You never even meet the person you are selling to or buying from.

Who cares? Really it just caused spam on the channels.

Travel: You don't need that druid or mage port like you used to, because you have your own hearthstone, flying mount, etc. etc.

Again not a huge deal, just a giant time sink in travel.

Raids: Much fewer people needed than in the past. Even in the same games.

I never felt all that heroic as one of 40 beating up a single mob.

Soloing: Commonplace.

Yup, but only if you chose, I still prefer a small group of friends to soloing any day.

Epic quests that need lots of help from others: Gone.

You mean Epic pain/timesink Gone.

Your server reputation: Screw it up, change your name or change servers.

I do sort of miss this one.

XP groups: Most folks don't even know what that is anymore.

Thank god for that one, I hate this aspect of old school, oooowww lets hog mob x for the next day or 2 so we can get 5% of the required xp for the next level.

The list goes on. The point is not whether this is good or bad. But rather that people don't really need other people much anymore. They don't even have that many reasons to interact. And what other players do has little to no affect on us.

More an issue of play style, find a decent guild, or get some friends to play and you'll have loads of interaction and fun, yeah sure some games promote socilising more than others, but none of them forbid it.

Was that really the goal? Did we want to play with thousands of other people so long as they all leave us alone and so long as we won't ever need them, or they us?

Again, more to do with play style than, I think a lot more of the earlier MMO players where from pen and paper games where you do have a group and geenrally belonged to larger gaming groups, where as now a lot of the new MMO's come from a single player video gameing background, and are looking for a bigger experience.

adolo

Sounds like you're as tired of WoW as I am... I have to agree with the OP, there has been a slow progression towards a washed down play experience in a lot of the games out today. Too much hand holding, too many safety nets. On the flip side if you have (everyones favorite term these days) a "sandbox" you leave it open to outside influences, people tend to turn to griefing and exploits. We need something in between that doesn't require you to be in a group or a guild in order to participate in what's happening in the world at large, but also doesn't allow someone to repeatedly grief or exploit the system. Where you can just be your character in a large living world and if you happen to stumble upon an event in the making you can jump in and join the fray without having to gain clearance from anyone, or you can just sit on the side lines and watch it play out or go kill 10 goblins if you are so inclined. Oh, and make trade skills viable again for cry'n out loud, I mean really... I've got a lot of hope for GW2, IF they deliver on the hype it will be something new and different that just may shift us back in the right direction. Who knows... Like you I will keep searching till I find it. 

Cephus404

You know, I look at that list and for most of it, I say "Good!"  I'm glad all of those old, boring, tired mechanics are gone, they didn't work well when they were in force and gaming has improved dramatically from their removal.  There is still plenty of social interaction around, it's just done on the individual player's terms.  Just because they aren't interacting the way *YOU* want doesn't mean they aren't interacting.

[Mod Edit]