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FFXIV Combat
Hyanmen
Member UncommonPosts: 5,357
The other thread is a good example of how ignorance and blind faith on journalism can affect people's views.
Now what exactly have the Alpha testers got to test? They have soloed their way to 20, doing quests and fighting monsters one by one with their AI still under development (= broken). They have had to deal with extreme latency issues (3-5 seconds to trigger skill after pressing the macro) and have yet to scratch the surface of the game.
The fact here is that the system is designed to be much more fun when grouping and/or fighting multiple monsters at time. Right now the testers fight mostly alone one, maybe two monsters at time, because when soloing it is not a good idea to go against that many mobs when there is still lag to deal with that might get you killed. Here is a quote from someone that has played the Alpha (but is also very cynical when it comes to FFXI):
"So far I've been partying and it's a hit. Very fast, and xp is hot, and the battle pace is much faster, thought you can still talk to set things up. I've found it's retarded to not party. As to Why, I think I'd be going well beyond the NDA. Let's just say that there's a reason why they said their intention is party vs. multiple monster combat."
This is what most testers have yet to do, be it due to lag or because they want to get familiar with the game first. This is where the combat shines.
If you don't like that combat is much more fun in group than alone, then there are other games that suit your needs. It is, however, not "dull" like it was in fact in FFXI most of the time, and there are very good reasons for that which some people overlook or simply don't know about.
Comments
Have you played it?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
This.
While SquareEnix have publicly stated that FFXIV will be more solo/casual friendly, a lot of the more exciting elements (like combat) will be based around group elements and the execution of group tactics (Battle Regimen). I have a static group of friends that I game with and we are looking forward to kicking ass and taking names as a group.
Has anyone played it the way I described?
The guy I quoted has.
One thing to add to before.. the combat is in fact considerably faster than in XI. Once the skill animation finishes you either need to wait approx. 1 second for the bar to be full, or it is already full.
Unlike in XI where you had to wait at least 4+ seconds after the animation had finished before attacking again.
Finally an actual good thread. That other one was bleeding my eyes lol
The "slow" style of combat is just the style of the game, it has been that pace for most FF games and it has always worked. I don't want a button mashing "fast" paced game; it just wouldn't work for their group set up.
People are always first to jump on the negative band wagon without giving it any intelligent thought.
I don't blame them for thinking the way they do, but without giving it an actual thought it is easy to dismiss the whole system as "dull" indeed, since even the press thinks that way.
But that's simply not the case here, which is what I wanted to point out.
EDIT: OR rather, we don't know if it is the case yet. Most of the things so far point to "no, it is not the case" but no one knows for sure before testers explore the game further. We have yet to see almost any of the characteristics that make the combat the way it is.
Pretty much my exact thoughts.
I'm personally excited for the combat. I enjoyed FFXI's pace ; it really sped up once in a group and I'm thinking it will do the same in XIV.
And even if you didn't, there is no way to compare the two. The only relating thing is the slower pace, which is like saying chess and FFXI combat were identical.
Let's forget for a second that the game is in Alpha. We're still making assumptions based on the first 20 levels. Look at how slow and dull the first 20 levels of XI were, i'd say even until the 40's when we got the haste spell. The combat speed at 75 in XI with haste and bard songs was crazy. The problem, as we all know, is if people aren't hooked by level 10 then they'll give up on the game.
We don't know how buffs will work to increase attack speed yet. Or hell, maybe even gear this time around may take more of a role of haste than in XI, to make up for spells, we don't know yet. Part of the issue is the obvious lack of auto attack, which made up the majority of actions in XI. XIV is also built on group play, which the majority don't enjoy.
I'm also going to be brutally honest and cynical until i actually play it myself. Gone are the days of blind loyalty after i've seen what else there is out there. I have over 1200 game days played in XI, which shows i'm willing to stick with something beyond my initial impressions. At the same time, this isn't 2003 and i expect more. So far i'm not impressed.
It doesn't really matter what level they are at, but it does matter if they base their opinion on solo or group experiences. If grouping is not fun or enjoyable then we may have a problem.
However, due to servers being unstable and people only getting to know the game, there is a good reason why everyone is out there soloing and not grouping, still.
I'm trying to think of a MMO that got bad reviews in Alpha/Beta only to turn around, make huge changes to the game system and release an improved game that satisfies the critics... nope, I can't think of a single one.
This game has already been designed. They are not going to change the game this late in development. "It's only Alpha!" Sorry but that's not how games are developed.
People who have played FFXIV are carefully selected fans. People who have played FFXIV say that combat is slow and boring. Gee, I wonder if FFXIV has slow and boring combat?
If a large group of players say that the combat is slow and boring then guess what? The combat is very likely slow and boring. Just because you can find one person who likes slow and boring combat doesn't mean the large group of players that dislike it are wrong for disliking slow and boring combat.
If Final Fantasy XIV has fun and interesting group play and PvE raids then great. That is more important to me than the solo play... but that doesn't change the fact that the first impression of the game will be slow and boring combat or that solo play will likely remain slow and boring.
I am still interested in FFXIV despite its slow and boring combat since there is no PvP and all PvE is slow and boring to me. I'm looking forward to finding out more about group mechanics and raids because that is why I am interested in FFXIV. It's unfortunate that combat will be slow and boring but I can get past this as long as the social activities like groups and raids are fun and interesting.
I'm not saying "It's only Alpha." I'm saying "They've only scratched the surface of the game."
There's not a single MMO where I've found the combat to be interesting from the start. WoW? EVE (lol)? Aion? FFXI? EQ2? It's all bland, with most of them still bland at level cap, just with more skills to spam.
I'm not talking about technical problems. I'm talking about game design.
The closest I could think of is Tabula Rasa... but since TR bombed after making huge changes to gameplay it wouldn't qualify as a success.
Anyway, the point is simply that FFXIV is not in its design stages. They have already finished designing FFXIV. All they are working on is getting the servers up, running and stable and finding client bugs so that they can release this year. Slow and boring combat is not caused by technical problems and will not be addressed before the game releases.
Neither am I. I am talking about game design too.
I agree that all MMO combat is slow and boring but FFXIV's combat is being called slow and boring when compared to other MMOs. I think "slow and boring" is going to end up being a fairly accurate description of the game's combat system.
And like I said, it's not the end of the world as long as FFXIV is fun and interesting when you group or participate in end-game PvE. I think most players would agree that end-game is far more important than enjoying killing rats by yourself.
Where do you base that statement? People who are still signed on to FFXI at this day have been chosen to test XIV. Who is to say they have even tried WoW or other MMO's, especially the Japanese that aren't really fond of western games in the first place?
Not to mention there is no way the combat is even slower than XI's. It is considerably faster (and I am not assuming anything here). Either the Japanese are smoking something and I'll want my share of that, or the article is a hoax.
Grouping is also what you'll most likely be doing all the time. Soloing is for the time you need to LFG. Yes, I am assuming this, but there are several facts that point out for this to be the case.
I don't get it, if you haven't played the game, how can you possibly attempt to refute those who have? I"m not saying that their opinion or view of the combat system is accurate or representative of the final product, but in the end those are first impressions----and if you haven't played it, you really can't even begin to refute things.
Just saying..
Why not?
I have listened to a fair share of western testers talk about the beta, have watched tons of videos (which is enough for me to claim that the combat is faster) and in the end, I am not trying to say they are wrong when they say the combat is boring. I am STILL saying "They've only scratched the surface of the combat".
Slow combat = great I absolutely hate fast paced combat its okay in sologames but a complete design failure in mmoRPG's. If people can't stand it well there are others games for them with fast paced combat and more to come e.g. The old Republic
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Taking negativity seriously at this stage of the game is ridiculous. Maybe when it's nearing launch, to hear the game sucks will be kind of depressing but I'll still try it. I'm not worried at all right now.
Editted to fix a typo on my behalf in quoting the article.
The June issue of Game Informer has some info on this subject that I'll share: Stepping Into Final Fantasy XIV's Magical World by Phillip Kollar that I will quote.
"Needless to say the actual in-game combat is less exciting than the cutscenes, though it also recalls other Final Fantasy games better than XI did. Once you enter combat, the action gauge begins filling up (similar to the ATB gauge that solo FF fans are used to). After three to four seconds, you're allowed to select an attack. Your available actions depend on your class, which can be changed on the fly simly by switching weapons. For example, if you have an axe equipped, you'll become a Marauder and unlock the "Hack" ability, which does a single strike.
You'll need to wait another few seconds for your action gauge to refill between every attack, which makes the combat in FF XIV sluggish even by MMO standards. Other strategic elements such as the effect gauge, which controls attack strength, and the TP meter, which builds and allows for stronger abilities throughout the course of combat, add layers of complexity. However, they may not be enough to engage players in an otherwise very slow-paced combat system."
I don't think a meter filling up and waiting for an attack means there's server lag holding you back for several seconds. This sort of action has been described by other sources as well as HOW THE GAME PLAYS. Not an excuse that it's an alpha build and is just slow, but there's mechanics in the game designed to make it slow.
But I don't think I can judge that as a bad thing over all. Making a MMO feel like the console Final Fantasy games sounds like a good thing. It just seems to need a little tweeking.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
That article is quite accurate, although pessimistic.
It also shows that that's as much as we (and testers) know about the combat so far. You fight easy mobs, probably using one or two skills over and over again.. it's not too fun. But that's definitely not all of it either. That's as basic as it can get. Like pressing the auto attack button on WoW and spamming 1 skill over and over again and killing rats in the starting zone. Fast or slow, it's still dull.
He is correct in saying that those two mechanics are not enough to engage players with the combat being as it is. However, fortunately there is so much more depth to the combat that it's just silly to make any conclusions now.
I can appreciate that approach to combat and agree with you that it seems like it has room to grow and be more exciting as development moves along.
I'm up for anything different than the usual norm and I remember discussing with a lot of players about how the ATB style of combat could've made FFXI better.
Auto attacking and having a plethora of spam buttons to go to for extra damage or a utility here and there just isn't keeping me interested in the genre. But a JRPG style of combat with a group of friends sounds appealing even if it's paced a bit different. I think time will tell. Hopefully they don't change it to be like everything else. Honestly AoC and Champions Online got neutered by the status quo.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
It's funny.
On the FF games, I liked the combat speed. In fact I think Final Fantasy 13 combat was faster than how I remember, say Final Fantasy 9 being?
I think people are just used to mass pulling zones with well-equipped characters and taking out rooms at a time in a matter of seconds. That's how a lot of my friends did it in EverQuest 2 at least.
Instead, I think the slower combat will encourage tactical play, as you have time to look at your abilities and consider which is best to use for that given moment. Might actually encourage people to consider what spells they use, as I imagine over a longer fight different skills may be appropriate. MMO's i've played I only considered the damage abilities in group-fights, not the stuns, aoe knockbacks etc. Never had to use many of them when fights only took a few seconds.
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