Am I the only one that some how sees this game as a joke? I mean there is RMT and then there's RMT. When I buy Lindens in Second Life I know it's not money, it's tokens for bling in a virtual world. What does the equivalent get me in EU? Maybe a few hours of play. Seriously, I use to be a proponent for some kind of RMT, but pure RMT like this is a literal sham as it monetized the player's time and experience to such a level that you might as well just pay 15USD up front for a regular game or possibly save up another 15USD to get yourself a good triple A game with some sort of multiplayer you don't have to pay for to play with your friends.
Again, I'm all for different business models, but if the developers aren't even up for different gameplay models too then I'm not up for paying a single penny to play theirs as the competitors are selling for cheaper and in more quantity by contrast.
In all honesty there are players who agree with the RMT nature of Entropia and players who disagree with it. Instead of calling players dumb for agreeing with it (some would call you dumb for disagreeing with it, remember that!) why dont we take a look at the reasons why folks fall into either camp.
Agree
RMT serves as a limiting factor, allowing the game to take on a much longer and pronounced advancement scale.
RMT serves as a method for encouraging socialization, increasing world depth. This is accomplished because the player no longer can be completely solo, a social network is a necessity in order to control costs
RMT serves as a way to reward players who do well -- legally ingame -- rather than have developers banning accounts for gold sales, character xfers, and virtual property sales. Its all allowed!
RMT serves as a way to eliminate bots. On a cost per swing basis a bot is impractical and ends up costing the botter money and gaining them very little!
Disagree
RMT costs money. Sometimes too much money.
Other games are cheaper.
Something else about money
Hey its a ripoff (another money quote)
Hey so WoW is cheaper (anyone noticing a trend?)
So how do I get rich? I wanna be rich. Can NEVERDIE just give me his money?
In short, the only reason people complain about RMT games like Entropia is because of the money. They may not agree with the philosophy, but in the end its soley due to their pocket book. There's other games out there for players like that. I dont begrudge those players entertainment. Im just saying --- its rather shortsighted and somewhat comical to cruise around knocking a product simply because you dont like its price tag.
Price isn't the problem that I have with EU, but it's how the structure of monetization rewards big spenders over little spenders. Let me give you an example in CO. Every costume piece can be had two ways: buy from the C-store or grind out perks to unlock. In either case, once you unlock a costume piece it's open for all characters in that account (a big plus). So for the lifetime of the account (plus subscription) I can consume (use) the costume pieces as often as I want for as long as I want (again with subscription). Contrast that with EU, I purchase equipment that not only has to be repaired, but will wear out completely to be lost forever regardless of chance on the rate of return. Also, the rate of return is often obscured compared to other games where your odds are often either up front or easily computed after enough runs. So, EU by contrast is on shaky ground by virtue of the fact that both in terms of consumption of content and return on gameplay often are at a net negative both in terms of physical (monetary) and psychic (psychological enjoyment) profit.
On the latter kind of profit, it's more so true for EU as if you screw up you are out of some serious money, but if you screw up in CO you're only out of time as the charge for subscription is a fixed cost (or possibly considered more properly a sunk cost) which adds real economic analysis to gameplay rather than an emphasis on analysis (non-economic) on the gameplay itself. In essence, EU is an economic game, not a roleplay game. Thus, big spenders are often more willing to lose money as they're playing it as an economy, but a little spender plays it as a game. And both lose out on enjoyment by virtue of the further meta-game analysis (the economics of playing the game) added by design in EU in contrast to CO or other online games.
Price isn't the problem that I have with EU, but it's how the structure of monetization rewards big spenders over little spenders. Let me give you an example in CO. Every costume piece can be had two ways: buy from the C-store or grind out perks to unlock. In either case, once you unlock a costume piece it's open for all characters in that account (a big plus). So for the lifetime of the account (plus subscription) I can consume (use) the costume pieces as often as I want for as long as I want (again with subscription). Contrast that with EU, I purchase equipment that not only has to be repaired, but will wear out completely to be lost forever regardless of chance on the rate of return. Also, the rate of return is often obscured compared to other games where your odds are often either up front or easily computed after enough runs. So, EU by contrast is on shaky ground by virtue of the fact that both in terms of consumption of content and return on gameplay often are at a net negative both in terms of physical (monetary) and psychic (psychological enjoyment) profit.
I think youre confusing EU with other Free to Play games. This isnt some cash shop game where you can logon, buy a cool item, and be at a massive advantage right away. In fact its the opposite. If you logon and buy the biggest gun and the baddest toy right away youre going to find yourself spending alot of money per shot compared to someone who is actually trained. Why? Because they spent the time to train up their skills to use that weapon. As for sharing the experience with other characters on the account, and the items, in EU you can only have 1 character. That being said, all your items are in fact shared with every character on your account!
Taking the example above and understanding it correctly, the game rewards folks who spend wisely, not spend large amonts. And spending does not have to come from your wallet. Many of my society mates play for free. How can they do this? They found a good group that helps them stretch their balance. A balance they earned by doing the most mundane of tasks ingame: Sweating.
Regarding equipment complete loss... you can choose to buy Limited use equipment (which has its advantages and disadvantages) or you can choose to buy unlimited use equipment. I use both. Theres no rule saying you cant use all one or all of another. Or none at all. Sometimes I cruise around in just my shorts. The shorts dont decay unless I decided to wear some other fashion, monsters dont damage them, and I can use my unlimited sword and bash some heads in.
"In essence, EU is an economic game, not a roleplay game."
Economy is a part of the game in EU, but it is not the entire game. It was also a part of the game in Ultima Online and Asheron's Call. I played both games for many years and can attest to their economic nature. Gold dupers ruined the economy in UO, causing a large stir in the community from which many bannings resulted. In AC if you controlled a supply of Platinum Scarabs your group was in a winning position. Each game emphasises economy differently. Theyre different games, and thats their right. To say however that EU is an economic game and not a roleplay game is ignoring the fact that there are other things happening within the Entropia Universe.
Frankly Im wondering why your view is so slanted against EU? Have you tried it and just didnt like it, or did you simply read about it and decide it was a poor idea and are now railing against it?
I have my negative opinions about EU, dont get me wrong. I think at its heart theres a Ponzi scheme at play. But its a fun product, and I dont take its economy seriously. its simply another part of the challenge. Maybe thats where you and I differ. You seem rather hung up on the economic nature of it, and like many other players within EU and without, have forgotten that its just a game... and games are what you make of them.
There is no justification at all. Video games shouldn't cost hundreds and thousands of dollars to play. That the game drains so much money so fast shows it to be little more than a scam targeting people that have no financial sense. It's unethical as hell and honestly shouldn't be given any space on a mmo site or even played for free.
It's not about gameplay or risk and reward: you can make a casino like rush without using real world money through random drops and other means. It's about using the skinner box style MMO gameplay to hook people for real world money to an insane degree: 20k is a years pay for many people, and the price of a new car. All wasted on pixels.
Ok, let's look at this game. It does not have great graphics nor great gameplay, yet it is probably the most expensive MMO out there. True if you are lucky enough you can actually get some return on your investment in this game. Again that is a big if.
So if you play the game for the money aspect it is pretty much outright gambling. If you do it for fun I would just have to question why, as there are so many far better games to have fun in these days.
So belittle my comments all you want. I still see no reason for any one to waste time on it myself. I have not seen one comment in this thread that offers any evidence to the contrary besides saying it is fun. I guess some people are masachists when it comes to grind because this game has it and you have to pay heavily for it. If that is what you call fun, well I guess it takes all types...
Am I the only one that some how sees this game as a joke? I mean there is RMT and then there's RMT. When I buy Lindens in Second Life I know it's not money, it's tokens for bling in a virtual world. What does the equivalent get me in EU? Maybe a few hours of play. Seriously, I use to be a proponent for some kind of RMT, but pure RMT like this is a literal sham as it monetized the player's time and experience to such a level that you might as well just pay 15USD up front for a regular game or possibly save up another 15USD to get yourself a good triple A game with some sort of multiplayer you don't have to pay for to play with your friends.
Again, I'm all for different business models, but if the developers aren't even up for different gameplay models too then I'm not up for paying a single penny to play theirs as the competitors are selling for cheaper and in more quantity by contrast.
In all honesty there are players who agree with the RMT nature of Entropia and players who disagree with it. Instead of calling players dumb for agreeing with it (some would call you dumb for disagreeing with it, remember that!) why dont we take a look at the reasons why folks fall into either camp.
Agree
RMT serves as a limiting factor, allowing the game to take on a much longer and pronounced advancement scale.
RMT serves as a method for encouraging socialization, increasing world depth. This is accomplished because the player no longer can be completely solo, a social network is a necessity in order to control costs
RMT serves as a way to reward players who do well -- legally ingame -- rather than have developers banning accounts for gold sales, character xfers, and virtual property sales. Its all allowed!
RMT serves as a way to eliminate bots. On a cost per swing basis a bot is impractical and ends up costing the botter money and gaining them very little!
Disagree
RMT costs money. Sometimes too much money.
Other games are cheaper.
Something else about money
Hey its a ripoff (another money quote)
Hey so WoW is cheaper (anyone noticing a trend?)
So how do I get rich? I wanna be rich. Can NEVERDIE just give me his money?
In short, the only reason people complain about RMT games like Entropia is because of the money. They may not agree with the philosophy, but in the end its soley due to their pocket book. There's other games out there for players like that. I dont begrudge those players entertainment. Im just saying --- its rather shortsighted and somewhat comical to cruise around knocking a product simply because you dont like its price tag.
I think you misunderstand why people are annoyed with the RMT of EU. Yes, some may have an issue with the items you listed, but that's not the real reason.
The RMT of EU is to purchase time at the one arm bandit style casino that EU set up. Hunting itself reminds me very much of scratch tickets. I have played the game twice. Both times I was disgusted with how players around me were treating the game.
From my observations and listening to people that have been playing for years - Hunting is less about the thrill of a challenging kill and more about the thrill of possible loot. I won't rattle off numbers, because I don't know the ratios of money spent vs. gained. However, it is WELL known that the odds are in the houses favor and hunting by itself is a loosing proposition. The more money you spend, chances are the more you will be able to play longer per dollar due to more gains than a person just spending $10. However, in the end - you will loose money - just like a slot machine.
This reminds me of the online casinos. Mind Ark even lets you cash out. The problem is with EU, they are unregulated. Who's to say what the odds are on their loot table drops vs. the amount of money you are sinking into the game. And a lot of people I met were in it for the thrill of that next big loot drop. Reminded me of friends that were addicted to scratch tickets. The difference is that I can flip a scratch ticket over and see exactly what the odds are. In this game, you can't.
Ok, let's look at this game. It does not have great graphics nor great gameplay, yet it is probably the most expensive MMO out there. True if you are lucky enough you can actually get some return on your investment in this game. Again that is a big if.
So if you play the game for the money aspect it is pretty much outright gambling. If you do it for fun I would just have to question why, as there are so many far better games to have fun in these days.
So belittle my comments all you want. I still see no reason for any one to waste time on it myself. I have not seen one comment in this thread that offers any evidence to the contrary besides saying it is fun. I guess some people are masachists when it comes to grind because this game has it and you have to pay heavily for it. If that is what you call fun, well I guess it takes all types...
The engine upgrade actually improved the graphics tremendously in my opinion. Certainly it is a prettier game than aging offerings like Everquest 2 and City of Heroes. The total package isn't on par with Age of Conan or maybe Aion either though, but there aren't many MMOs that are right now.
I don't understand why you and so many others feel like this has to be a right or wrong answer kind of question. There is no right or wrong answer to taste in MMOs. If you like Jazz, it doesn't make someone who likes Heavy Metal wrong. If you like paying Blizzard $15 a month for WoW, it doesn't make someone who wants to spend $100 a month gambling on Entropia wrong.
I understand how you may have overlooked my huge block of text a page or two ago in this thread, especially since my experience doesn't support your argument whatsoever, but I felt like I offered a fair example of how Entropia can be fun without a large or any investment. Now, if you're a hardcore gamer that likes to raid for 8 hours a night, you're likely to run up the bills fast in Entropia (where there isn't any raiding anyway). Someone who just wants to do some exploring and socialize can have a great time though for a little or no investment at all.
What's 100 hours of gameplay into 10 dollars invested spread over the 10 months since the graphics upgrade when I started my occassional playing? I'm averaging 10 hours of playtime a month at 10 cents an hour or something like that? That's not exactly breaking the bank is it?
We may all laugh with amazement at the over commercialism and money scam elements of this MMO. But we did exactly the same thing when we first heard about F2P cash shops and where are we now?
Well since it only uses the engine it mustn't be as bad as Entropia i assume.
Regarding Entropia being a terrible game there are people who enjoy it and i have also played it in the past, but since mindark is too greedy and managed to totally screw up the ingame economy it is much too expensive for the regular player.
For example if you want to get anywhere as a hunter/pker in Entropia you should be able to at least invest somewhere between 20000-30000 USD for equipment somewhere down the line or you'll be stuck at mid-level forever. And you should be ready to pay an additional 100-200 USD on top of that every month to keep going unless you are very lucky of course,
So basically just never being able to get to the "engame content" or play with the big guns makes it very unattractive for the average joe. You can get uber in any game if you invest enough time, in Entropia you also need to have tons of money.
OK now, that's some serious money, which I'd have to say disqualifies me from playing if true.
But if there are people wealthy enough to pay this sort of fee without protest, then perhaps this is just the game for them, doesn't make it necessarily a bad game, just designed for a wealthier class of gamer.
Played it for a bit more than a month myself. In that time I spent around $100 for armor and other such. Its not a bad game all things considered, its design just doesn't hang together as well as I'd expect. But I totally agree that it can get expensive fast if one isn't careful.
Well since it only uses the engine it mustn't be as bad as Entropia i assume.
Regarding Entropia being a terrible game there are people who enjoy it and i have also played it in the past, but since mindark is too greedy and managed to totally screw up the ingame economy it is much too expensive for the regular player.
For example if you want to get anywhere as a hunter/pker in Entropia you should be able to at least invest somewhere between 20000-30000 USD for equipment somewhere down the line or you'll be stuck at mid-level forever. And you should be ready to pay an additional 100-200 USD on top of that every month to keep going unless you are very lucky of course,
So basically just never being able to get to the "engame content" or play with the big guns makes it very unattractive for the average joe. You can get uber in any game if you invest enough time, in Entropia you also need to have tons of money.
OK now, that's some serious money, which I'd have to say disqualifies me from playing if true.
But if there are people wealthy enough to pay this sort of fee without protest, then perhaps this is just the game for them, doesn't make it necessarily a bad game, just designed for a wealthier class of gamer.
Played it for a bit more than a month myself. In that time I spent around $100 for armor and other such. Its not a bad game all things considered, its design just doesn't hang together as well as I'd expect. But I totally agree that it can get expensive fast if one isn't careful.
I don't see a problem with Entropia's potential costs making it exclusive either. In the late 80's and early 90's, when widespread access to the internet was first becoming available, it was prohibitively expensive too. To access GEnie during prime time US hours to chat or play a text-based MUD like Gemstone could run you more than $10 an hour. $1500 bills were not unheard of at all. Makes that $60 a month cable bill and $15 a month MMO subscription look pretty good now huh?
I'm as glad as anyone else that we have cheap unlimited broadband connections these days and flat rate monthly subscriptions to most of the games we love. The people willing to pay thousands of dollars a month for their hobbies are still out there in large numbers though and Entropia caters to them and their resources.
I think you misunderstand why people are annoyed with the RMT of EU. Yes, some may have an issue with the items you listed, but that's not the real reason.
The RMT of EU is to purchase time at the one arm bandit style casino that EU set up. Hunting itself reminds me very much of scratch tickets. I have played the game twice. Both times I was disgusted with how players around me were treating the game.
From my observations and listening to people that have been playing for years - Hunting is less about the thrill of a challenging kill and more about the thrill of possible loot. I won't rattle off numbers, because I don't know the ratios of money spent vs. gained. However, it is WELL known that the odds are in the houses favor and hunting by itself is a loosing proposition. The more money you spend, chances are the more you will be able to play longer per dollar due to more gains than a person just spending $10. However, in the end - you will loose money - just like a slot machine.
This reminds me of the online casinos. Mind Ark even lets you cash out. The problem is with EU, they are unregulated. Who's to say what the odds are on their loot table drops vs. the amount of money you are sinking into the game. And a lot of people I met were in it for the thrill of that next big loot drop. Reminded me of friends that were addicted to scratch tickets. The difference is that I can flip a scratch ticket over and see exactly what the odds are. In this game, you can't.
The funny thing about all this casino garbage is that folks blithely ignore the fact --- yes fact --- that gambling is illegal in Sweden where this game is published, and the company has been thoroughly investigated for gambling already.
Guess what.
The investigating commission determined that the game was not gambling. The system was at its core predictable, and a player with the right information could deterimine when the next mother lode would strike.
Folks who think this game is gambling are wrong. It is a difficult game with a very deep system. Its a challenge. The information is out there for you to assemble, if you are resourceful enough to do it. Its all public.
So here's what I understand and accept when I play EU.
I accept that theres a better way to do things than the way I have adopted.
I accept that my losses may be rather large.
I accept that someone else may know more.
I accept that I may at some point need to get creative to be one of the top dogs.
Lets try some understanding and acceptance of EU on this community's end.
Accept that there are various styles to playing EU, some more successful than others
Accept that it is a slow, intricate game that does not simply spit out numbers for you to drool over.
Accept that you wont be level 90000 in 3 months and start pwning noobs in endgame arenas.
Accept that this game is not World of Warcraft, or any type of clone thereof.
Im an old gaming vet. I started with UO when it first launched. I played AC Darktide at launch. I played Shadowbane at Launch. EverQuest at launch. Darkfall, Perfect World, Jade Dynasty, Spellborn and many others. Entropia is the best game I have played since Asheron's Call and UO. The challenge here is immense, and the time commitment is pronounced. It has everything I was hoping to see in Darkfall, and retains the sense of unknown that has long since been missing from MMO's since the release of WOW.
If this game isnt for some people, thats fine by me. However as an adult with a varying schedule, my own income and responsibilities, and a love for computer games, I have found a great game to hang out in. Since 2002 Ive been looking for a decent game. Im only sorry I didnt try this one out sooner.
I like how people that have never played this game defend it.
Many people that enjoy this game are probably stuck playing it because they want to make their money back or come out on top. This "game" is just a GAMBLING CASINO IN DISGUISE. Heres how entropia works:
-You play the game for the first time.You have nothing. So you gather sweat for days and days and sell to other players
-If you made it this far you've made about 50 cents in a few days depending on how many hours you play each day.
-At this point you still cant buy anything decent so you quit or you put money into the game.
-You spend 10 dollars to buy armor, weapons and ammo.
-You go hunting and make about 15 dollars From selling materials to others. You're thinking "oh boy 15 dollars"
-You armor is damage and you repair each piece for a total of 3 dollars.You buy more ammo for 1 dollar.
-Congrats you spent a week making about 1 Dollar.
So you see, its a gamble because you are hoping to make more than it costs to spend on repairs and equipment. Most people never do. This is a GOOD scenario. You aren't going to get many people to buy your materials for much, there aren't any NPCs to sell to(only to buy from), there aren't any money drops. In a realistic scenario you'd have to put in way more than 10 bucks, and you wouldn't make 15 dollars so easily.
This game is set up so mindark makes money. If you take off your armor the armor gets damaged. Your gun gets damaged every time you use it. This game is set up so you are constantly spending your money. If you take out the real money aspect of this "game" its just a crappy mmo without any quests.
The only people that could really enjoy this game are those making money off of it, or gambling addicts that think they'll make it big or even one day. I'm not saying this game is super horrible. I'd actually like to see more games with the same concept only making it skill based rather than based on luck (like a casino). But if you never played it, you can't insult people that dislike it after having played it.
Most people don't realize whats really going on with this "game" and its quite funny. If you have played entropia for a few days you'll know what I'm talking about. Or if you can open your mind to the core concept of this game. All the money flowing in this game was purchased and when things are repaired or purchased, that digital money is gone forever. Its not a bad thing because they have to make their money and they do it well.
I think rocktropia is a bastardization by Neverdie of entropia. I enjoy entropia, other than the ever worsening loot returns for my real life money... but hey that is why I limit my play and am searching for another mmo atm. Great graphics for entropia, great concept, but anti rewarding for time and effort of player.
Its not gambling. MindArk has been investigated by their national government in that regard. I have no real idea why some people continue to insist, in spite of evidence to the contrary, that they are a casino. Its just a game with a different business model. Its not one I find any real interest in, but to each their own.
I like how people that have never played this game defend it...
... But if you never played it, you can't insult people that dislike it after having played it.
I currently play this game. I have no illusions of "making it big" via the system, the system does not allow that. I have not made money off this game. I like the game, and think it is the future of the MMO genre.
Oh and for the record, the game is skill based. Youve tied the monster loot in with "Skill" in such a way as to confuse the reader. Let me undo that knot:
If monster loot was based off "skill" then it stands to reason that if you performed some uber combo on a mob you would be rewarded with uber loot for your very skilled move. Can anyone tell me a game that does that, or should? Folks would just macro up a super finisher and loot epic weapons off every mob they killed.
That sounds pretty stupid, doesnt it? Even WOW isnt this lame --- and yet this user suggests that EU go in this direction! Some folks need to design their own MMO's just to find out how bad their ideas really are.
The investigating commission determined that the game was not gambling. The system was at its core predictable, and a player with the right information could deterimine when the next mother lode would strike.
You cannot tell me that you haven't heard of counting cards. Even slot machines are predictable over time. Which is why the more they are played without a jackpot, probability dictates the higher the chance of a large payout. Which is why a gambler can become violent at casinos if you take their chair for any reason. It's also why casinos watch people who win big too often and escourt them on their merry way.
And you are also right.. most courts would not refer to this as gambling. Simply because most courts do not take video games serious. Also, the game have non-gambling elements that allow you to play full time as well. Kind of like the WoW card games. You can play the WoW card game... but a lot buy the packs for the chance to get a mini-pet in game. A chance... that's what gambling is all about.
So, please understand, I am not calling it a casino. But, if you are looking at hunting .. and are hoping for that next juicy loot drop, while you are pouring in cash for ammo (not saying you in particular)... that is gambling. My main issue with this is that the odds of the chance of you winning something with more value of your ammo should be displayed somewhere.
Oy vey. :-) This argument could go around and around forever. Suffice it to say I think we differ in our perception of social responsibility. It sounds like you object to the game because a player could use it to gamble. I agree with that assessment, however anything could be used as a gamble. You can speed up your car at the yellow light, hoping to make it through before it turns red and you get a $371 ticket. Thats gambling. You could smoke 2 packs a day for 20 years and figure you will end up like your granddad, who lived till 97, ignoring all evidence to the cotrary. Also gambling.
I think where you and I differ is in the question of who is responsible for unhealthy behavior? You seem to lean towards the philosophy that the developer has an obligation to create a product that on some level oversees its users and ensures their good health. I believe a user should oversee themselves. If they cannot do that it is not someone elses responsibility to babysit them.
There is a clear difference between gambling for financial gain and gambling as a thrill. In Entropia, it's common belief and openly advertised that you can gain money. People hope for the big prize and cash out while they are ahead. That is blatently different than speeding through that almost red light and hope you don't get a ticket.
And no.. I'm not arguing social values. I'm calling the game as it is instead of using hidden marketing terms to avoid the fact that it is not a normal MMORPG. My only problem with the developer is that they do not release the odds of which you have to "earn winnings". It's like buying lottery tickets without the odds displayed for a cash prize limit that you don't know.... or.... going to a poker table and playing a hand while the dealer never has to reveal their cards.... or... playing on a roulette table that all the numbers are missing. It's blatently wrong when the game itself is used as a gambling medium.
To clarify this - Please keep in mind that I not against gambling. I am not saying the responsibility of gambling and addiction should belong on just the developer (it does to a point when sly marketing tactics are concerned). I am also not saying that the game itself is bad (although I feel that the gathering could be improved). I am also not saying that the entire game is about gambling - However, combat does.
Oy vey. :-) This argument could go around and around forever. Suffice it to say I think we differ in our perception of social responsibility. It sounds like you object to the game because a player could use it to gamble. I agree with that assessment, however anything could be used as a gamble. You can speed up your car at the yellow light, hoping to make it through before it turns red and you get a $371 ticket. Thats gambling. You could smoke 2 packs a day for 20 years and figure you will end up like your granddad, who lived till 97, ignoring all evidence to the cotrary. Also gambling.
I think where you and I differ is in the question of who is responsible for unhealthy behavior? You seem to lean towards the philosophy that the developer has an obligation to create a product that on some level oversees its users and ensures their good health. I believe a user should oversee themselves. If they cannot do that it is not someone elses responsibility to babysit them.
The *individual* is responsible for *their own* behavior(and the consequences there of). Any other approach leads into the various collectivist hells that history is so full of examples of. EU isn't my type of game, but that is simply my personal choice. One has to question the ideology and agenda of those who insist that it is "gambling". That has certain knee jerk reactions to those who insist on controlling other people lives and resources. All for the "greater good" of course...
Bottom line, Mindark just has a different business model for their game than some others. If they have enough players to stay in business and make a profit, then more power to them.
And no.. I'm not arguing social values. I'm calling the game as it is instead of using hidden marketing terms to avoid the fact that it is not a normal MMORPG. My only problem with the developer is that they do not release the odds of which you have to "earn winnings". It's like buying lottery tickets without the odds displayed for a cash prize limit that you don't know.... or.... going to a poker table and playing a hand while the dealer never has to reveal their cards.... or... playing on a roulette table that all the numbers are missing. It's blatently wrong when the game itself is used as a gambling medium.
To clarify this - Please keep in mind that I not against gambling. I am not saying the responsibility of gambling and addiction should belong on just the developer (it does to a point when sly marketing tactics are concerned). I am also not saying that the game itself is bad (although I feel that the gathering could be improved). I am also not saying that the entire game is about gambling - However, combat does.
Omitted the first paragraph. It was just rehashing. Lets deal with the second and third.
First, what is a normal MMO? You seem interested in calling things as they are -- so I will follow that lead.
A normal MMO is a product whereby the user pays an indeterminate amount of money over time for the privilege of spending their lives looking at a computer monitor, getting fatter, lazier, and more slovenly with every piece of pizza eaten and soda imbibed.
A normal MMO is a product where the user performs the same actions, in the same sequence, and recieves varying rewards. These actions include pressing WASD, clicking the left mouse button, and using the numbers 1-6 repeatedly.
A normal MMO is a timesink, where hundreds of hours are spent, maybe even thousands, as the clock governing all users lives ticks little by little toward oblivion.
Viewing a normal MMO through these categories it can be easily surmised that there isnt an MMO developer out there who gives a rats ass about their consumers health, well being, or financial status. That being said how is Entropia any worse than any other MMO. Its developers dont give a hoot about you, your health, or your mortgage. They simply want your time and your money. It is a extremely normal MMO.
As for sly marketing tactics, what MMO developer has come out and said the above, and then said "Hey so buy our product" afterwards? I'll give you a short answer. None. Guess theyre all involved in sly marketing tactics. Or perhaps you actually are a hero flinging a sword the size of a small aircraft around like a toy....
And no.. I'm not arguing social values. I'm calling the game as it is instead of using hidden marketing terms to avoid the fact that it is not a normal MMORPG. My only problem with the developer is that they do not release the odds of which you have to "earn winnings". It's like buying lottery tickets without the odds displayed for a cash prize limit that you don't know.... or.... going to a poker table and playing a hand while the dealer never has to reveal their cards.... or... playing on a roulette table that all the numbers are missing. It's blatently wrong when the game itself is used as a gambling medium.
...
I'm curious what kind of odds you would like the developers to release because it's not that simple. In a lottery you buy a ticket and hope for the best, same with a roulette table. In EU player skills and avatar skills affect your "winnings" by choosing the right mobs to hunt with the right weapons at the right level for example. You can't factor those skills into odds of a return rate.
... The process for getting my self unstuck was to log out, email support and then wait for their reply. It took three hours for my character to get free. ..
You should have pressed "T" to wind up at the nearest revive terminal.
Just love reading this thread. Whine whine whine....
People always say them want new thinking, well here you go.
This game has introduced tons of new ways to play an MMORPG. But go back and play your damn wow-clones that some asian guy cut and patched together over a weekend.
I played EU on and off for 3 years. I never put a cent in and got stuff and skills worth about 5000 dollars.
Just because you are to stupid to handle your money. But please, I got room for your money too.
Comments
In all honesty there are players who agree with the RMT nature of Entropia and players who disagree with it. Instead of calling players dumb for agreeing with it (some would call you dumb for disagreeing with it, remember that!) why dont we take a look at the reasons why folks fall into either camp.
Agree
RMT serves as a limiting factor, allowing the game to take on a much longer and pronounced advancement scale.
RMT serves as a method for encouraging socialization, increasing world depth. This is accomplished because the player no longer can be completely solo, a social network is a necessity in order to control costs
RMT serves as a way to reward players who do well -- legally ingame -- rather than have developers banning accounts for gold sales, character xfers, and virtual property sales. Its all allowed!
RMT serves as a way to eliminate bots. On a cost per swing basis a bot is impractical and ends up costing the botter money and gaining them very little!
Disagree
RMT costs money. Sometimes too much money.
Other games are cheaper.
Something else about money
Hey its a ripoff (another money quote)
Hey so WoW is cheaper (anyone noticing a trend?)
So how do I get rich? I wanna be rich. Can NEVERDIE just give me his money?
In short, the only reason people complain about RMT games like Entropia is because of the money. They may not agree with the philosophy, but in the end its soley due to their pocket book. There's other games out there for players like that. I dont begrudge those players entertainment. Im just saying --- its rather shortsighted and somewhat comical to cruise around knocking a product simply because you dont like its price tag.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
Price isn't the problem that I have with EU, but it's how the structure of monetization rewards big spenders over little spenders. Let me give you an example in CO. Every costume piece can be had two ways: buy from the C-store or grind out perks to unlock. In either case, once you unlock a costume piece it's open for all characters in that account (a big plus). So for the lifetime of the account (plus subscription) I can consume (use) the costume pieces as often as I want for as long as I want (again with subscription). Contrast that with EU, I purchase equipment that not only has to be repaired, but will wear out completely to be lost forever regardless of chance on the rate of return. Also, the rate of return is often obscured compared to other games where your odds are often either up front or easily computed after enough runs. So, EU by contrast is on shaky ground by virtue of the fact that both in terms of consumption of content and return on gameplay often are at a net negative both in terms of physical (monetary) and psychic (psychological enjoyment) profit.
On the latter kind of profit, it's more so true for EU as if you screw up you are out of some serious money, but if you screw up in CO you're only out of time as the charge for subscription is a fixed cost (or possibly considered more properly a sunk cost) which adds real economic analysis to gameplay rather than an emphasis on analysis (non-economic) on the gameplay itself. In essence, EU is an economic game, not a roleplay game. Thus, big spenders are often more willing to lose money as they're playing it as an economy, but a little spender plays it as a game. And both lose out on enjoyment by virtue of the further meta-game analysis (the economics of playing the game) added by design in EU in contrast to CO or other online games.
I think youre confusing EU with other Free to Play games. This isnt some cash shop game where you can logon, buy a cool item, and be at a massive advantage right away. In fact its the opposite. If you logon and buy the biggest gun and the baddest toy right away youre going to find yourself spending alot of money per shot compared to someone who is actually trained. Why? Because they spent the time to train up their skills to use that weapon. As for sharing the experience with other characters on the account, and the items, in EU you can only have 1 character. That being said, all your items are in fact shared with every character on your account!
Taking the example above and understanding it correctly, the game rewards folks who spend wisely, not spend large amonts. And spending does not have to come from your wallet. Many of my society mates play for free. How can they do this? They found a good group that helps them stretch their balance. A balance they earned by doing the most mundane of tasks ingame: Sweating.
Regarding equipment complete loss... you can choose to buy Limited use equipment (which has its advantages and disadvantages) or you can choose to buy unlimited use equipment. I use both. Theres no rule saying you cant use all one or all of another. Or none at all. Sometimes I cruise around in just my shorts. The shorts dont decay unless I decided to wear some other fashion, monsters dont damage them, and I can use my unlimited sword and bash some heads in.
"In essence, EU is an economic game, not a roleplay game."
Economy is a part of the game in EU, but it is not the entire game. It was also a part of the game in Ultima Online and Asheron's Call. I played both games for many years and can attest to their economic nature. Gold dupers ruined the economy in UO, causing a large stir in the community from which many bannings resulted. In AC if you controlled a supply of Platinum Scarabs your group was in a winning position. Each game emphasises economy differently. Theyre different games, and thats their right. To say however that EU is an economic game and not a roleplay game is ignoring the fact that there are other things happening within the Entropia Universe.
Frankly Im wondering why your view is so slanted against EU? Have you tried it and just didnt like it, or did you simply read about it and decide it was a poor idea and are now railing against it?
I have my negative opinions about EU, dont get me wrong. I think at its heart theres a Ponzi scheme at play. But its a fun product, and I dont take its economy seriously. its simply another part of the challenge. Maybe thats where you and I differ. You seem rather hung up on the economic nature of it, and like many other players within EU and without, have forgotten that its just a game... and games are what you make of them.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
There is no justification at all. Video games shouldn't cost hundreds and thousands of dollars to play. That the game drains so much money so fast shows it to be little more than a scam targeting people that have no financial sense. It's unethical as hell and honestly shouldn't be given any space on a mmo site or even played for free.
It's not about gameplay or risk and reward: you can make a casino like rush without using real world money through random drops and other means. It's about using the skinner box style MMO gameplay to hook people for real world money to an insane degree: 20k is a years pay for many people, and the price of a new car. All wasted on pixels.
Ok, let's look at this game. It does not have great graphics nor great gameplay, yet it is probably the most expensive MMO out there. True if you are lucky enough you can actually get some return on your investment in this game. Again that is a big if.
So if you play the game for the money aspect it is pretty much outright gambling. If you do it for fun I would just have to question why, as there are so many far better games to have fun in these days.
So belittle my comments all you want. I still see no reason for any one to waste time on it myself. I have not seen one comment in this thread that offers any evidence to the contrary besides saying it is fun. I guess some people are masachists when it comes to grind because this game has it and you have to pay heavily for it. If that is what you call fun, well I guess it takes all types...
I think you misunderstand why people are annoyed with the RMT of EU. Yes, some may have an issue with the items you listed, but that's not the real reason.
The RMT of EU is to purchase time at the one arm bandit style casino that EU set up. Hunting itself reminds me very much of scratch tickets. I have played the game twice. Both times I was disgusted with how players around me were treating the game.
From my observations and listening to people that have been playing for years - Hunting is less about the thrill of a challenging kill and more about the thrill of possible loot. I won't rattle off numbers, because I don't know the ratios of money spent vs. gained. However, it is WELL known that the odds are in the houses favor and hunting by itself is a loosing proposition. The more money you spend, chances are the more you will be able to play longer per dollar due to more gains than a person just spending $10. However, in the end - you will loose money - just like a slot machine.
This reminds me of the online casinos. Mind Ark even lets you cash out. The problem is with EU, they are unregulated. Who's to say what the odds are on their loot table drops vs. the amount of money you are sinking into the game. And a lot of people I met were in it for the thrill of that next big loot drop. Reminded me of friends that were addicted to scratch tickets. The difference is that I can flip a scratch ticket over and see exactly what the odds are. In this game, you can't.
The engine upgrade actually improved the graphics tremendously in my opinion. Certainly it is a prettier game than aging offerings like Everquest 2 and City of Heroes. The total package isn't on par with Age of Conan or maybe Aion either though, but there aren't many MMOs that are right now.
I don't understand why you and so many others feel like this has to be a right or wrong answer kind of question. There is no right or wrong answer to taste in MMOs. If you like Jazz, it doesn't make someone who likes Heavy Metal wrong. If you like paying Blizzard $15 a month for WoW, it doesn't make someone who wants to spend $100 a month gambling on Entropia wrong.
I understand how you may have overlooked my huge block of text a page or two ago in this thread, especially since my experience doesn't support your argument whatsoever, but I felt like I offered a fair example of how Entropia can be fun without a large or any investment. Now, if you're a hardcore gamer that likes to raid for 8 hours a night, you're likely to run up the bills fast in Entropia (where there isn't any raiding anyway). Someone who just wants to do some exploring and socialize can have a great time though for a little or no investment at all.
What's 100 hours of gameplay into 10 dollars invested spread over the 10 months since the graphics upgrade when I started my occassional playing? I'm averaging 10 hours of playtime a month at 10 cents an hour or something like that? That's not exactly breaking the bank is it?
We may all laugh with amazement at the over commercialism and money scam elements of this MMO. But we did exactly the same thing when we first heard about F2P cash shops and where are we now?
Played it for a bit more than a month myself. In that time I spent around $100 for armor and other such. Its not a bad game all things considered, its design just doesn't hang together as well as I'd expect. But I totally agree that it can get expensive fast if one isn't careful.
I don't see a problem with Entropia's potential costs making it exclusive either. In the late 80's and early 90's, when widespread access to the internet was first becoming available, it was prohibitively expensive too. To access GEnie during prime time US hours to chat or play a text-based MUD like Gemstone could run you more than $10 an hour. $1500 bills were not unheard of at all. Makes that $60 a month cable bill and $15 a month MMO subscription look pretty good now huh?
I'm as glad as anyone else that we have cheap unlimited broadband connections these days and flat rate monthly subscriptions to most of the games we love. The people willing to pay thousands of dollars a month for their hobbies are still out there in large numbers though and Entropia caters to them and their resources.
The funny thing about all this casino garbage is that folks blithely ignore the fact --- yes fact --- that gambling is illegal in Sweden where this game is published, and the company has been thoroughly investigated for gambling already.
Guess what.
The investigating commission determined that the game was not gambling. The system was at its core predictable, and a player with the right information could deterimine when the next mother lode would strike.
Folks who think this game is gambling are wrong. It is a difficult game with a very deep system. Its a challenge. The information is out there for you to assemble, if you are resourceful enough to do it. Its all public.
So here's what I understand and accept when I play EU.
I accept that theres a better way to do things than the way I have adopted.
I accept that my losses may be rather large.
I accept that someone else may know more.
I accept that I may at some point need to get creative to be one of the top dogs.
Lets try some understanding and acceptance of EU on this community's end.
Accept that there are various styles to playing EU, some more successful than others
Accept that it is a slow, intricate game that does not simply spit out numbers for you to drool over.
Accept that you wont be level 90000 in 3 months and start pwning noobs in endgame arenas.
Accept that this game is not World of Warcraft, or any type of clone thereof.
Im an old gaming vet. I started with UO when it first launched. I played AC Darktide at launch. I played Shadowbane at Launch. EverQuest at launch. Darkfall, Perfect World, Jade Dynasty, Spellborn and many others. Entropia is the best game I have played since Asheron's Call and UO. The challenge here is immense, and the time commitment is pronounced. It has everything I was hoping to see in Darkfall, and retains the sense of unknown that has long since been missing from MMO's since the release of WOW.
If this game isnt for some people, thats fine by me. However as an adult with a varying schedule, my own income and responsibilities, and a love for computer games, I have found a great game to hang out in. Since 2002 Ive been looking for a decent game. Im only sorry I didnt try this one out sooner.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
I like how people that have never played this game defend it.
Many people that enjoy this game are probably stuck playing it because they want to make their money back or come out on top. This "game" is just a GAMBLING CASINO IN DISGUISE. Heres how entropia works:
-You play the game for the first time.You have nothing. So you gather sweat for days and days and sell to other players
-If you made it this far you've made about 50 cents in a few days depending on how many hours you play each day.
-At this point you still cant buy anything decent so you quit or you put money into the game.
-You spend 10 dollars to buy armor, weapons and ammo.
-You go hunting and make about 15 dollars From selling materials to others. You're thinking "oh boy 15 dollars"
-You armor is damage and you repair each piece for a total of 3 dollars.You buy more ammo for 1 dollar.
-Congrats you spent a week making about 1 Dollar.
So you see, its a gamble because you are hoping to make more than it costs to spend on repairs and equipment. Most people never do. This is a GOOD scenario. You aren't going to get many people to buy your materials for much, there aren't any NPCs to sell to(only to buy from), there aren't any money drops. In a realistic scenario you'd have to put in way more than 10 bucks, and you wouldn't make 15 dollars so easily.
This game is set up so mindark makes money. If you take off your armor the armor gets damaged. Your gun gets damaged every time you use it. This game is set up so you are constantly spending your money. If you take out the real money aspect of this "game" its just a crappy mmo without any quests.
The only people that could really enjoy this game are those making money off of it, or gambling addicts that think they'll make it big or even one day. I'm not saying this game is super horrible. I'd actually like to see more games with the same concept only making it skill based rather than based on luck (like a casino). But if you never played it, you can't insult people that dislike it after having played it.
Most people don't realize whats really going on with this "game" and its quite funny. If you have played entropia for a few days you'll know what I'm talking about. Or if you can open your mind to the core concept of this game. All the money flowing in this game was purchased and when things are repaired or purchased, that digital money is gone forever. Its not a bad thing because they have to make their money and they do it well.
I think rocktropia is a bastardization by Neverdie of entropia. I enjoy entropia, other than the ever worsening loot returns for my real life money... but hey that is why I limit my play and am searching for another mmo atm. Great graphics for entropia, great concept, but anti rewarding for time and effort of player.
Its not gambling. MindArk has been investigated by their national government in that regard. I have no real idea why some people continue to insist, in spite of evidence to the contrary, that they are a casino. Its just a game with a different business model. Its not one I find any real interest in, but to each their own.
I currently play this game. I have no illusions of "making it big" via the system, the system does not allow that. I have not made money off this game. I like the game, and think it is the future of the MMO genre.
Oh and for the record, the game is skill based. Youve tied the monster loot in with "Skill" in such a way as to confuse the reader. Let me undo that knot:
If monster loot was based off "skill" then it stands to reason that if you performed some uber combo on a mob you would be rewarded with uber loot for your very skilled move. Can anyone tell me a game that does that, or should? Folks would just macro up a super finisher and loot epic weapons off every mob they killed.
That sounds pretty stupid, doesnt it? Even WOW isnt this lame --- and yet this user suggests that EU go in this direction! Some folks need to design their own MMO's just to find out how bad their ideas really are.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
You cannot tell me that you haven't heard of counting cards. Even slot machines are predictable over time. Which is why the more they are played without a jackpot, probability dictates the higher the chance of a large payout. Which is why a gambler can become violent at casinos if you take their chair for any reason. It's also why casinos watch people who win big too often and escourt them on their merry way.
And you are also right.. most courts would not refer to this as gambling. Simply because most courts do not take video games serious. Also, the game have non-gambling elements that allow you to play full time as well. Kind of like the WoW card games. You can play the WoW card game... but a lot buy the packs for the chance to get a mini-pet in game. A chance... that's what gambling is all about.
So, please understand, I am not calling it a casino. But, if you are looking at hunting .. and are hoping for that next juicy loot drop, while you are pouring in cash for ammo (not saying you in particular)... that is gambling. My main issue with this is that the odds of the chance of you winning something with more value of your ammo should be displayed somewhere.
Oy vey. :-) This argument could go around and around forever. Suffice it to say I think we differ in our perception of social responsibility. It sounds like you object to the game because a player could use it to gamble. I agree with that assessment, however anything could be used as a gamble. You can speed up your car at the yellow light, hoping to make it through before it turns red and you get a $371 ticket. Thats gambling. You could smoke 2 packs a day for 20 years and figure you will end up like your granddad, who lived till 97, ignoring all evidence to the cotrary. Also gambling.
I think where you and I differ is in the question of who is responsible for unhealthy behavior? You seem to lean towards the philosophy that the developer has an obligation to create a product that on some level oversees its users and ensures their good health. I believe a user should oversee themselves. If they cannot do that it is not someone elses responsibility to babysit them.
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
There is a clear difference between gambling for financial gain and gambling as a thrill. In Entropia, it's common belief and openly advertised that you can gain money. People hope for the big prize and cash out while they are ahead. That is blatently different than speeding through that almost red light and hope you don't get a ticket.
And no.. I'm not arguing social values. I'm calling the game as it is instead of using hidden marketing terms to avoid the fact that it is not a normal MMORPG. My only problem with the developer is that they do not release the odds of which you have to "earn winnings". It's like buying lottery tickets without the odds displayed for a cash prize limit that you don't know.... or.... going to a poker table and playing a hand while the dealer never has to reveal their cards.... or... playing on a roulette table that all the numbers are missing. It's blatently wrong when the game itself is used as a gambling medium.
To clarify this - Please keep in mind that I not against gambling. I am not saying the responsibility of gambling and addiction should belong on just the developer (it does to a point when sly marketing tactics are concerned). I am also not saying that the game itself is bad (although I feel that the gathering could be improved). I am also not saying that the entire game is about gambling - However, combat does.
The *individual* is responsible for *their own* behavior(and the consequences there of). Any other approach leads into the various collectivist hells that history is so full of examples of. EU isn't my type of game, but that is simply my personal choice. One has to question the ideology and agenda of those who insist that it is "gambling". That has certain knee jerk reactions to those who insist on controlling other people lives and resources. All for the "greater good" of course...
Bottom line, Mindark just has a different business model for their game than some others. If they have enough players to stay in business and make a profit, then more power to them.
Omitted the first paragraph. It was just rehashing. Lets deal with the second and third.
First, what is a normal MMO? You seem interested in calling things as they are -- so I will follow that lead.
A normal MMO is a product whereby the user pays an indeterminate amount of money over time for the privilege of spending their lives looking at a computer monitor, getting fatter, lazier, and more slovenly with every piece of pizza eaten and soda imbibed.
A normal MMO is a product where the user performs the same actions, in the same sequence, and recieves varying rewards. These actions include pressing WASD, clicking the left mouse button, and using the numbers 1-6 repeatedly.
A normal MMO is a timesink, where hundreds of hours are spent, maybe even thousands, as the clock governing all users lives ticks little by little toward oblivion.
Viewing a normal MMO through these categories it can be easily surmised that there isnt an MMO developer out there who gives a rats ass about their consumers health, well being, or financial status. That being said how is Entropia any worse than any other MMO. Its developers dont give a hoot about you, your health, or your mortgage. They simply want your time and your money. It is a extremely normal MMO.
As for sly marketing tactics, what MMO developer has come out and said the above, and then said "Hey so buy our product" afterwards? I'll give you a short answer. None. Guess theyre all involved in sly marketing tactics. Or perhaps you actually are a hero flinging a sword the size of a small aircraft around like a toy....
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
I'm curious what kind of odds you would like the developers to release because it's not that simple. In a lottery you buy a ticket and hope for the best, same with a roulette table. In EU player skills and avatar skills affect your "winnings" by choosing the right mobs to hunt with the right weapons at the right level for example. You can't factor those skills into odds of a return rate.
You should have pressed "T" to wind up at the nearest revive terminal.
Alpha AG Geek
Founder- Manticore Society
Just love reading this thread. Whine whine whine....
People always say them want new thinking, well here you go.
This game has introduced tons of new ways to play an MMORPG. But go back and play your damn wow-clones that some asian guy cut and patched together over a weekend.
I played EU on and off for 3 years. I never put a cent in and got stuff and skills worth about 5000 dollars.
Just because you are to stupid to handle your money. But please, I got room for your money too.
My life is a game!