Yet another fundamental (grouping) of an mmorpg that accentuates the need for community, game-play socializing, and player-centric participation.
I tend to think that the same people that dont want to have to encounter game-play situations were community members need to band together to cooperate on are the same that want instant gratification, instant travel, instances that shut out the massively from multiplayer online, single-player solo pve majorly, and no open world pvp that night ever surprisingly influence the ecosystem of game-play.
Yet another fundamental (grouping) of an mmorpg that accentuates the need for community, game-play socializing, and player-centric participation. I tend to think that the same people that dont want to have to encounter game-play situations were community members need to band together to cooperate on are the same that want instant gratification, instant travel, instances that shut out the massively from multiplayer online, single-player solo pve majorly, and no open world pvp that night ever surprisingly influence the ecosystem of game-play.
I am a player who doesnt like grouping and I am not in favor of fast travel or fast leveling. In fact, taking Darkfall for example I felt the orginal progression of skills was fine as it was in the begining!
Speaking for myself I dont like to group becuase I dont like people and the only reason I play MMO's instead of single player games is becuase the content for MMO's is MUCH larger than it is in single players and my play intrests require huge amounts of content in a non-lineral format.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
well that is a good point however I dont see why it would be hard to make a game simply have both, just slight modifications on any MMO game should make the both to co-exist perfectly. But selling the point as 'forced grouping' is a really bad idea. I don think anyone wants to think that they are 'forced' to do anything on their free time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
Then you are only forced because of your own limited viewpoint. I group for challenging content all the time in those solo friendly games, and if the content gets to easy we go to other more challenging content. The content for challenging groups and challenging solo play is there, very evident and very easy to find for both situations, plus I get more xp, and greater rewards for the grouping content than I do when playing solo.
Seriously in most games today there is no longer an either, or, developers have generally found ways that let you play the way you want whenever you want (in terms of group play and solo anyway, sandbox still has a way to go). So the only limitations these days are really you.
These posts don't really have a point anymore, you can choose how you want to play.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
Then you are only forced because of your own limited viewpoint. I group for challenging content all the time in those solo friendly games, and if the content gets to easy we go to other more challenging content. The content for challenging groups and challenging solo play is there, very evident and very easy to find for both situations, plus I get more xp, and greater rewards for the grouping content than I do when playing solo.
Seriously in most games today there is no longer an either, or, developers have generally found ways that let you play the way you want whenever you want (in terms of group play and solo anyway, sandbox still has a way to go). So the only limitations these days are really you.
These posts don't really have a point anymore, you can choose how you want to play.
Venge Sunsoar
Well, that's wonderful, but I don't find that challenging in the least.
Whatever you want whenever you want means a solo game. you like solo games. You like to group through solo games.
That's great, but I don't think grouping through a solo game is fun. I don't think anyone has ever stated you can't group through a solo game.
I can't "choose" to play a challenging group game in a solo game.
I can only "choose" to group through a solo game, if it's a solo game.
But I don't really like grouping through solo games.
I'd actually like to play a challenigng group game.
So where's this imaginiary "choice" you keep making up?
My choice is to play the game your way, and group through a solo game?
How in the world is that a "choice"?
I have a limited viewpoint, because I don't like games exactly like you do?
And that makes ME the one with a limited viewpoint?
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
Then you are only forced because of your own limited viewpoint. I group for challenging content all the time in those solo friendly games, and if the content gets to easy we go to other more challenging content. The content for challenging groups and challenging solo play is there, very evident and very easy to find for both situations, plus I get more xp, and greater rewards for the grouping content than I do when playing solo.
Seriously in most games today there is no longer an either, or, developers have generally found ways that let you play the way you want whenever you want (in terms of group play and solo anyway, sandbox still has a way to go). So the only limitations these days are really you.
These posts don't really have a point anymore, you can choose how you want to play.
Venge Sunsoar
Well, that's wonderful, but I don't find that challenging in the least.
Whatever you want whenever you want means a solo game. you like solo games. You like to group through solo games.
That's great, but I don't think grouping through a solo game is fun. I don't think anyone has ever stated you can't group through a solo game.
I can't "choose" to play a challenging group game in a solo game.
I can only "choose" to group through a solo game, if it's a solo game.
But I don't really like grouping through solo games.
I'd actually like to play a challenigng group game.
So where's this imaginiary "choice" you keep making up?
My choice is to play the game your way, and group through a solo game?
How in the world is that a "choice"?
I have a limited viewpoint, because I don't like games exactly like you do?
And that makes ME the one with a limited viewpoint?
Really?
I like games that give me a choice and most games do. If you dont' find the content challenging then go on to the next content, I guarantee you will find a point where it is challenging. That you are refusing to do so again shows that you have a limited viewpoint.
Games these days offer both playstyles and again they are not that hard to find.
Your choice is not to play the game my, your choice is to play the game your way. There is lots of challenging grouping conent of all levels. You want challenging content, it's there. That you refuse to see it shows a limited view.
You have a limited viewpoint, not because you don't like the games I like but because you refuse to see the content that was developed for youn and then claim it doesn't exist
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
Then you are only forced because of your own limited viewpoint. I group for challenging content all the time in those solo friendly games, and if the content gets to easy we go to other more challenging content. The content for challenging groups and challenging solo play is there, very evident and very easy to find for both situations, plus I get more xp, and greater rewards for the grouping content than I do when playing solo.
Seriously in most games today there is no longer an either, or, developers have generally found ways that let you play the way you want whenever you want (in terms of group play and solo anyway, sandbox still has a way to go). So the only limitations these days are really you.
These posts don't really have a point anymore, you can choose how you want to play.
Venge Sunsoar
Well, that's wonderful, but I don't find that challenging in the least.
Whatever you want whenever you want means a solo game. you like solo games. You like to group through solo games.
That's great, but I don't think grouping through a solo game is fun. I don't think anyone has ever stated you can't group through a solo game.
I can't "choose" to play a challenging group game in a solo game.
I can only "choose" to group through a solo game, if it's a solo game.
But I don't really like grouping through solo games.
I'd actually like to play a challenigng group game.
So where's this imaginiary "choice" you keep making up?
My choice is to play the game your way, and group through a solo game?
How in the world is that a "choice"?
I have a limited viewpoint, because I don't like games exactly like you do?
And that makes ME the one with a limited viewpoint?
Really?
I like games that give me a choice and most games do. If you dont' find the content challenging then go on to the next content, I guarantee you will find a point where it is challenging. That you are refusing to do so again shows that you have a limited viewpoint.
Games these days offer both playstyles and again they are not that hard to find.
Your choice is not to play the game my, your choice is to play the game your way. There is lots of challenging grouping conent of all levels. You want challenging content, it's there. That you refuse to see it shows a limited view.
You have a limited viewpoint, not because you don't like the games I like but because you refuse to see the content that was developed for youn and then claim it doesn't exist
I don't like the exact same game you do, so that makes ME the one with the limited viewpoint?
To have an "unlimited" viewpoint, I have to like the same game you do?
And that logic makes sense to you?
If it's challenging for you, it has to be challenging for me?
Only one level of challenge exists, the level of challenge YOU determine is appropriate, and everything else is somehow wrong?
And that is the limitless view point? That all levels of challenge are determined by you, and you alone?
That no one else can have a different view of what is challenging to them?
Developing a solo friendly game for me, when I want a challenging group game, makes content for me?
Really?
You're just saying I'm wrong if I don't like the same game you like.
Why is it wrong for people to like different games?
You keep telling me you like to group through solo friendly games. Ok, i get that.
I don't find that challenging.
That makes me wrong, becuase I don't like the same content you do?
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
Then you are only forced because of your own limited viewpoint. I group for challenging content all the time in those solo friendly games, and if the content gets to easy we go to other more challenging content. The content for challenging groups and challenging solo play is there, very evident and very easy to find for both situations, plus I get more xp, and greater rewards for the grouping content than I do when playing solo.
Seriously in most games today there is no longer an either, or, developers have generally found ways that let you play the way you want whenever you want (in terms of group play and solo anyway, sandbox still has a way to go). So the only limitations these days are really you.
These posts don't really have a point anymore, you can choose how you want to play.
Venge Sunsoar
Well, that's wonderful, but I don't find that challenging in the least.
Whatever you want whenever you want means a solo game. you like solo games. You like to group through solo games.
That's great, but I don't think grouping through a solo game is fun. I don't think anyone has ever stated you can't group through a solo game.
I can't "choose" to play a challenging group game in a solo game.
I can only "choose" to group through a solo game, if it's a solo game.
But I don't really like grouping through solo games.
I'd actually like to play a challenigng group game.
So where's this imaginiary "choice" you keep making up?
My choice is to play the game your way, and group through a solo game?
How in the world is that a "choice"?
I have a limited viewpoint, because I don't like games exactly like you do?
And that makes ME the one with a limited viewpoint?
Really?
I like games that give me a choice and most games do. If you dont' find the content challenging then go on to the next content, I guarantee you will find a point where it is challenging. That you are refusing to do so again shows that you have a limited viewpoint.
Games these days offer both playstyles and again they are not that hard to find.
Your choice is not to play the game my, your choice is to play the game your way. There is lots of challenging grouping conent of all levels. You want challenging content, it's there. That you refuse to see it shows a limited view.
You have a limited viewpoint, not because you don't like the games I like but because you refuse to see the content that was developed for youn and then claim it doesn't exist
I don't like the exact same game you do, so that makes ME the one with the limited viewpoint?
To have an "unlimited" viewpoint, I have to like the same game you do?
And that logic makes sense to you?
If it's challenging for you, it has to be challenging for me?
Only one level of challenge exists, the level of challenge YOU determine is appropriate, and everything else is somehow wrong?
And that is the limitless view point? That all levels of challenge are determined by you, and you alone?
That no one else can have a different view of what is challenging to them?
Developing a solo friendly game for me, when I want a challenging group game, makes content for me?
Really?
You're just saying I'm wrong if I don't like the same game you like.
Why is it wrong for people to like different games?
You keep telling me you like to group through solo friendly games. Ok, i get that.
I don't find that challenging.
That makes me wrong, becuase I don't like the same content you do?
Please don't put words in my mouth Imhotepp.
I don't like the exact same game you do, so that makes ME the one with the limited viewpoint?
I didn't say anything about liking the same game I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
To have an "unlimited" viewpoint, I have to like the same game you do?
I didn't say anything about liking the same game I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
And that logic makes sense to you?
Your not making any sense. You are responding to statements I have not made
If it's challenging for you, it has to be challenging for me?
I didn't say anything about liking the same challenge I did, I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
Only one level of challenge exists, the level of challenge YOU determine is appropriate, and everything else is somehow wrong?
I didn't say anything about the challenge I found appropriate I said you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
And that is the limitless view point? That all levels of challenge are determined by you, and you alone?
I didn't say me determining the challenge I said you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
That no one else can have a different view of what is challenging to them?
Everyone can have and does have a different view of what is challenging. I the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
Developing a solo friendly game for me, when I want a challenging group game, makes content for me?
Really?
You're just saying I'm wrong if I don't like the same game you like.
Nope I didn't say that at all. Again what I said was the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
Why is it wrong for people to like different games?
Nothing, good thing I didn't say that .
You keep telling me you like to group through solo friendly games. Ok, i get that.
Nope I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
I don't find that challenging.
Good for you. Now again what I said wasthe content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
That makes me wrong, becuase I don't like the same content you do?
Didn't say that. I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
There is enough variety of games out there now, and most games have such a huge variety of content and the content typically gets harder as you go along, furthermore you are perfectly capable challenging higher level content than your level specifies so it will be more challenging. So challenging content is easy to find, you will reach a point where even you find something challenging, groups are easy to find and plentiful and actively encouraged throug more content, more challenge, more rewards, and east to assemble (it really doesn't take a lot of time anymore in a great many games). So the challenge exists, the group gameplay exists, you just refuse to see it. Almost everything you are asking for exists.
I figure if I keep repeating those lines, eventually it might sink in.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
Don't play?
Every time this comes up, people make various suggestions how to make grouping better, but they are almost always shot down by the grouping-advocates who don't want to play anything but a forced-grouping game. You don't want content that automatically gets harder or acts differently if you're in a group, you want to make everyone else around you group as well.
So long as you want to control the lives of everyone around you, I have little sympathy.
I like to group and I like to solo. Why would I play a game where one of those activities doesn't advance my character? There are plenty of games around that support both playstyles. I find the connotation that soloers should become second-class players in comparison to groupers to be slightly offensive.
So groupers being second class players is alright then? But of course you don't see them as second class do you?
That's the whole issue how do we balance the solo and group dynamic and make a game everyone wants to play. It is like squaring a circle, some say lets give up and play the same MMO on differant servers. But that would cost a shed load to implement and dilute the player base, MMO designers have nightmares about that sort of thing.
So there is no easy solution, the queston is can we find any solution at all?
having gameplay that is centered around group play is great, but not for everyone. Why is this discussion brought up so much? Its clearly a matter of taste, some people hate running around doing tasks/killing mobs by themselves for hours. Others hate going through the hastle of finding groups or just dont want to be with others in a game.
Personally I hate soloing in an MMORPG, I dont expect everyone to think like me, nor do I think every game should be built around how I want. Would it be so crazy to have some solo based games and group based games available for everyone? Sadly I cant recall a game that was made for group play ever since FFXI came out....which has been quite some time.
having gameplay that is centered around group play is great, but not for everyone. Why is this discussion brought up so much?
God knows. The topic of "Why Do People Solo And Not Group?", and the people who keep bringing the topic up, are like a fart in a spacesuit - they never go away. Every time the topic is dragged back into the light of day - which seems at least once per week - the people who adore grouping whine, cry, QQ, bitch and moan. They're like some clingy, religious cult out to convert us all... by force if need be, because to them, Grouping Is The Right And Proper Way. The more they are told the reasons why many people prefer to solo, the more obtuse they get.
For the last time (in my dreams...) here are the basic reasons people solo, which are self-evident to anyone with a spare synapse:-
1) Game companies make content too easy in order to attract more players and in the process, their money. This makes content doable for even the most inept, clueless group, but also makes it easy to solo for an experienced MMO player.
2) When soloing, there is also no need to split XP and mob drops with anyone, so you level up and get richer, faster.
3) Way too many players are dumb as rocks. Why suffer them when you don't need to.
4) People who solo are NOT antisocial. I routinely voice-chat with people I actually know in real life, rather than a monosyllabic cluster of pixels on a screen that thinks "m8" and "Lol" are all the social skills they need. I'm having a ball, thanks very much.
Well, until the next time this topic crops up - say in a couple of days - that's this stale old topic done.
So groupers being second class players is alright then? But of course you don't see them as second class do you?
That's the whole issue how do we balance the solo and group dynamic and make a game everyone wants to play. It is like squaring a circle, some say lets give up and play the same MMO on differant servers. But that would cost a shed load to implement and dilute the player base, MMO designers have nightmares about that sort of thing.
So there is no easy solution, the queston is can we find any solution at all?
Groupers, especially hardcore groupers, are "second class players" simply by the fact that they represent a smaller financial sector in the MMO community than soloers. Therefore, you might not get everything you want, especially if what you want is to force everyone on the server to play in groups whether they want to or not. Deal with it. Every time someone comes up with an idea that will allow groupers to have that "challenging content", nobody wants it because it doesn't force everyone around them to do it the same way.
So no, if your criteria is forcing grouping on other people, give up, you're never going to get it, nor should you. MMOs are going to cater to the largest player base possible. That isn't you. Either accept that and play or move on.
[quote]Originally posted by VengeSunsoar [b][quote] Originally posted by Ihmotepp [quote] Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs? they all force you to play a particular style. If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA. If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping. If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. ' Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice". Now what?
[color=#00ff00] Then you are only forced because of your own limited viewpoint. I group for challenging content all the time in those solo friendly games, and if the content gets to easy we go to other more challenging content. The content for challenging groups and challenging solo play is there, very evident and very easy to find for both situations, plus I get more xp, and greater rewards for the grouping content than I do when playing solo. Seriously in most games today there is no longer an either, or, developers have generally found ways that let you play the way you want whenever you want (in terms of group play and solo anyway, sandbox still has a way to go). So the only limitations these days are really you. These posts don't really have a point anymore, you can choose how you want to play. Venge Sunsoar 1
You are wrong, the content for todays solo friendly MMO,s are very very limited in it's group oriented content..and also a game that is developed mainly for the solocrowd will have it's community react upon that and solo even thou there is a small amount of group content to be found, or atleast make it very hard to find a decent group or even impossible
I think your wrong. In todays games there is enough challenging group content to level all day every day right up to level cap. Then end game is usually group oriented. Today there is never a single time I need to solo unless there is no one on, which happens in many low pop games.
Even the dreaded WoW. My druid is 50, I know I'm slow, (just stopped playing again) and I have grouped far far far more than I have soloed. Actually I think I only soloed for the first 10 levels for him.
So there is enough grouping content, and there are people wanting to group. You just need to find them, and it's not that difficult. The major problem is no one wants to lead the team and so no groups are formed.
Games I've played in the last year - WoW, Ryzom, CoH, Vanguard. The only games I've had difficulty grouping this year is Ryzom and Vanguard because of low pops.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
Don't play?
Every time this comes up, people make various suggestions how to make grouping better, but they are almost always shot down by the grouping-advocates who don't want to play anything but a forced-grouping game. You don't want content that automatically gets harder or acts differently if you're in a group, you want to make everyone else around you group as well.
So long as you want to control the lives of everyone around you, I have little sympathy.
You like solo games. Ok, that's great. I hope developers makes lots of solo games you to enjoy.
I like group games.
You don't hope developers make group games for me, and you have no sympathy for me. You want me to be happy playing your solo game, and that's it.
Who wants to control the lives of others in this scenario?
I think your wrong. In todays games there is enough challenging group content to level all day every day right up to level cap. Then end game is usually group oriented. Today there is never a single time I need to solo unless there is no one on, which happens in many low pop games.
Even the dreaded WoW. My druid is 50, I know I'm slow, (just stopped playing again) and I have grouped far far far more than I have soloed. Actually I think I only soloed for the first 10 levels for him.
So there is enough grouping content, and there are people wanting to group. You just need to find them, and it's not that difficult. The major problem is no one wants to lead the team and so no groups are formed.
Games I've played in the last year - WoW, Ryzom, CoH, Vanguard. The only games I've had difficulty grouping this year is Ryzom and Vanguard because of low pops.
Venge Sunsoar
Yes. They are challenging for YOU.
But I"m sure, for example, Tiger Woods might find a golf course you think is challenging, not so challenging right?
Could it be that someone on the planet might not have the exact same perception of "challenge" as you do?
Grouping is easy. No one is asking to be able to group through solo content, at least I'm not.
I'm asking for good group content, which WoW and CoH lack. Vangaurd is a little bit better, can't speak to Ryzom, I haven't played it.
No I readily admit that for YOU, WoW and CoH might have wonderful challenging group content.
For me, WoW has no challenging group content, until you get to the end game.
But, everyone has to look at "challenge" like you do, right?
Now as far as solo friendly games go, City of Heroes was a lot of fun, and I did enjoy playing it. But the scaling dungeons, pretty much regulate it to a solo game. And I did group through City of Heroes, but I felt like I was grouping through a solo game, not playing good group content.
So groupers being second class players is alright then? But of course you don't see them as second class do you?
That's the whole issue how do we balance the solo and group dynamic and make a game everyone wants to play. It is like squaring a circle, some say lets give up and play the same MMO on differant servers. But that would cost a shed load to implement and dilute the player base, MMO designers have nightmares about that sort of thing.
So there is no easy solution, the queston is can we find any solution at all?
Groupers, especially hardcore groupers, are "second class players" simply by the fact that they represent a smaller financial sector in the MMO community than soloers. Therefore, you might not get everything you want, especially if what you want is to force everyone on the server to play in groups whether they want to or not. Deal with it. Every time someone comes up with an idea that will allow groupers to have that "challenging content", nobody wants it because it doesn't force everyone around them to do it the same way.
So no, if your criteria is forcing grouping on other people, give up, you're never going to get it, nor should you. MMOs are going to cater to the largest player base possible. That isn't you. Either accept that and play or move on.
If that's true, why do most MMORPGs have raiding at the end, which is forced grouping?
Then why are you on these forums, if you don't play MMORPGs?
they all force you to play a particular style.
If the game is FFA , you are forced to play FFA. If the game is RvR, you are forced to play RvR. If the game doesn't allow FFA, you are forced to play non-FFA.
If the game encourages grouping, you are forced to play a game that encourages grouping.
If the game encourages solo play, you are forced to play a game that encourages solo play.
Hardly, I've never seen a game where I couldn't solo or group or PvP or not PvP or anything else. I have a choice in how I want to play the game. If I don't, I don't play that game. It's simple. However, this thread is about "FORCED GROUPING", which means that it wouldn't give me a choice to do anything but group. I would not play that game.
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
Don't play?
Every time this comes up, people make various suggestions how to make grouping better, but they are almost always shot down by the grouping-advocates who don't want to play anything but a forced-grouping game. You don't want content that automatically gets harder or acts differently if you're in a group, you want to make everyone else around you group as well.
So long as you want to control the lives of everyone around you, I have little sympathy.
You like solo games. Ok, that's great. I hope developers makes lots of solo games you to enjoy.
I like group games.
You don't hope developers make group games for me, and you have no sympathy for me. You want me to be happy playing your solo game, and that's it.
Who wants to control the lives of others in this scenario?
Thats part of the problem. They are making grouping games. They are making games that have lots of grouping and challenging content. They are not hard to find those games, nor are they hard to find in games that allready exist.
Games today have lots of challenging grouping content. Don't find it challenging, do a harder mob or a harder quest, it will become challenging. Games today reward groupers more with better loot and more xp. Games today hardly take any time to find groups, often minutes.
So easy to get groups, easy to find good grouping content and lots of grouping content.
You want to make it so that no one can ever solo in that game, that makes it you that is controling the lives of others in that scenarior. Developers have made and are making what you want. Quit trying to make it so no one else can get anything.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: On a more practical note, Imhotepp your view is so extreme I seriously doubt there are enough of you to make any game any money. And so your only choices are to leave the genre, continue to grumble and complain and be unhappy about everything or compromise.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Games today have lots of challenging grouping content. Don't find it challenging, do a harder mob or a harder quest, it will become challenging.
Yes, I do understand you think that's "challenging" group content.
I do not.
Not everyone will think something is "challenging" because you do.
Different people may have different perceptions of what is "challenging". could that be a possibility? Or, you think that's impossible? Everyone MUST think something is challenging, if you do?
It's not like I'm the only one on this forum that likes grouping games.
edit: On a more practical note, Imhotepp your view is so extreme I seriously doubt there are enough of you to make any game any money. And so your only choices are to leave the genre, continue to grumble and complain and be unhappy about everything or compromise.
So your argument is that this is a great design, grouping games like DaoC and EQ, and you fully support it and you wish there were more games like this for me to play, but you're simply worried for the profits of Developers?
edit: On a more practical note, Imhotepp your view is so extreme I seriously doubt there are enough of you to make any game any money. And so your only choices are to leave the genre, continue to grumble and complain and be unhappy about everything or compromise.
So your argument is that this is a great design, grouping games like DaoC and EQ, and you fully support it and you wish there were more games like this for me to play, but you're simply worried for the profits of Developers?
I'm starting to think you have some reading comprehension difficulties. My argument was made above that statement, this was as stated on a more practical note, nor was it about profit although that factors into it. The argument is there needs to be a market to sustain that. Your extreme is not what EQ and DaoC were, because you could solo to level cap in both of those.
By your own statement, if I can solo to cap why would I group. Your view is extreme, you want a game where there is no soloing at all, because if there is then you are playing a solo game - You have stated this many many times - this type of mentality is not shared by by many people at all, and I seriously doubt there are enough of you to suppot a game, therefore a game would not be made because it would be a money losing proposition and no company wants to lose money. Since you could solo in EQ and DaoC I guess those are solo games.
Once again was that my only comment, no, read please, that was just a practical one.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
If that's true, why do most MMORPGs have raiding at the end, which is forced grouping?
You are forced to group if you want to raid - which by definition is doing something with multiple-groups - so that's like saying "you're forced to group if you want to group", which is kinda self-explanatory.
But you aren't forced to raid. If you don't like to raid, don't. I love raiding in EQ2 and play almost exclusively to do that. However, I know countless people who play EQ2 that don't like or want to raid. So guess what? They make the choice not to raid. And none forces them to.
Perhaps you will say, but if I want to get raid loot, I am forced to raid. Yes, yes you are. But that raid loot is part of raid gameplay. No one forces you to want raid loot.
In a single player game, there is goal, you have to get to the end, pass the game, save the princess. Then the game ends.
In an MMO, there is no set "winning condition", there is no set goal that everyone has to achieve. You choose what goals you have. No one forces you into any of them. If you CHOOSE to have a goal of having all raid gear, then you're forced to raid. But no one forces you to have that goal. If your goal is to be a good crafter, you aren't forced to raid. If your goal is to have the biggest dark elf guild on the server, you don't have to raid. If your goal is to do all the solo content in the game, you never have to raid. If your goal is to do all the group content in the game, you never have to raid.
Also, I don't know about others (though I assume they're pretty similar), but in EQ2, the % of raid encounters as taken of total encounters available is about 2% or less. Yet I still enjoy the raiding very much, even if the majority of the game is made for grouping and soloing.
Does it really have to be totally black and white? 100% solo content for a game? or 100% group content? Why is choice bad?
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
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Comments
I tend to think that the same people that dont want to have to encounter game-play situations were community members need to band together to cooperate on are the same that want instant gratification, instant travel, instances that shut out the massively from multiplayer online, single-player solo pve majorly, and no open world pvp that night ever surprisingly influence the ecosystem of game-play.
I am a player who doesnt like grouping and I am not in favor of fast travel or fast leveling. In fact, taking Darkfall for example I felt the orginal progression of skills was fine as it was in the begining!
Speaking for myself I dont like to group becuase I dont like people and the only reason I play MMO's instead of single player games is becuase the content for MMO's is MUCH larger than it is in single players and my play intrests require huge amounts of content in a non-lineral format.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
And I feel that the only choice your solo friendly game gives me is to group through solo content, which I don't find challenging or entertaining. '
Forcing me to group through solo content, is not really a "choice".
Now what?
well that is a good point however I dont see why it would be hard to make a game simply have both, just slight modifications on any MMO game should make the both to co-exist perfectly. But selling the point as 'forced grouping' is a really bad idea. I don think anyone wants to think that they are 'forced' to do anything on their free time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Then you are only forced because of your own limited viewpoint. I group for challenging content all the time in those solo friendly games, and if the content gets to easy we go to other more challenging content. The content for challenging groups and challenging solo play is there, very evident and very easy to find for both situations, plus I get more xp, and greater rewards for the grouping content than I do when playing solo.
Seriously in most games today there is no longer an either, or, developers have generally found ways that let you play the way you want whenever you want (in terms of group play and solo anyway, sandbox still has a way to go). So the only limitations these days are really you.
These posts don't really have a point anymore, you can choose how you want to play.
Venge Sunsoar
Well, that's wonderful, but I don't find that challenging in the least.
Whatever you want whenever you want means a solo game. you like solo games. You like to group through solo games.
That's great, but I don't think grouping through a solo game is fun. I don't think anyone has ever stated you can't group through a solo game.
I can't "choose" to play a challenging group game in a solo game.
I can only "choose" to group through a solo game, if it's a solo game.
But I don't really like grouping through solo games.
I'd actually like to play a challenigng group game.
So where's this imaginiary "choice" you keep making up?
My choice is to play the game your way, and group through a solo game?
How in the world is that a "choice"?
I have a limited viewpoint, because I don't like games exactly like you do?
And that makes ME the one with a limited viewpoint?
Really?
I like games that give me a choice and most games do. If you dont' find the content challenging then go on to the next content, I guarantee you will find a point where it is challenging. That you are refusing to do so again shows that you have a limited viewpoint.
Games these days offer both playstyles and again they are not that hard to find.
Your choice is not to play the game my, your choice is to play the game your way. There is lots of challenging grouping conent of all levels. You want challenging content, it's there. That you refuse to see it shows a limited view.
You have a limited viewpoint, not because you don't like the games I like but because you refuse to see the content that was developed for youn and then claim it doesn't exist
I don't like the exact same game you do, so that makes ME the one with the limited viewpoint?
To have an "unlimited" viewpoint, I have to like the same game you do?
And that logic makes sense to you?
If it's challenging for you, it has to be challenging for me?
Only one level of challenge exists, the level of challenge YOU determine is appropriate, and everything else is somehow wrong?
And that is the limitless view point? That all levels of challenge are determined by you, and you alone?
That no one else can have a different view of what is challenging to them?
Developing a solo friendly game for me, when I want a challenging group game, makes content for me?
Really?
You're just saying I'm wrong if I don't like the same game you like.
Why is it wrong for people to like different games?
You keep telling me you like to group through solo friendly games. Ok, i get that.
I don't find that challenging.
That makes me wrong, becuase I don't like the same content you do?
Please don't put words in my mouth Imhotepp.
I don't like the exact same game you do, so that makes ME the one with the limited viewpoint?
I didn't say anything about liking the same game I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
To have an "unlimited" viewpoint, I have to like the same game you do?
I didn't say anything about liking the same game I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
And that logic makes sense to you?
Your not making any sense. You are responding to statements I have not made
If it's challenging for you, it has to be challenging for me?
I didn't say anything about liking the same challenge I did, I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
Only one level of challenge exists, the level of challenge YOU determine is appropriate, and everything else is somehow wrong?
I didn't say anything about the challenge I found appropriate I said you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
And that is the limitless view point? That all levels of challenge are determined by you, and you alone?
I didn't say me determining the challenge I said you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
That no one else can have a different view of what is challenging to them?
Everyone can have and does have a different view of what is challenging. I the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
Developing a solo friendly game for me, when I want a challenging group game, makes content for me?
Really?
You're just saying I'm wrong if I don't like the same game you like.
Nope I didn't say that at all. Again what I said was the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
Why is it wrong for people to like different games?
Nothing, good thing I didn't say that .
You keep telling me you like to group through solo friendly games. Ok, i get that.
Nope I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
I don't find that challenging.
Good for you. Now again what I said wasthe content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
That makes me wrong, becuase I don't like the same content you do?
Didn't say that. I said the content is there, you will reach a point where the content is challenging, your refusal to see the content makes your viewpoint limited
There is enough variety of games out there now, and most games have such a huge variety of content and the content typically gets harder as you go along, furthermore you are perfectly capable challenging higher level content than your level specifies so it will be more challenging. So challenging content is easy to find, you will reach a point where even you find something challenging, groups are easy to find and plentiful and actively encouraged throug more content, more challenge, more rewards, and east to assemble (it really doesn't take a lot of time anymore in a great many games). So the challenge exists, the group gameplay exists, you just refuse to see it. Almost everything you are asking for exists.
I figure if I keep repeating those lines, eventually it might sink in.
Venge Sunsoar
Don't play?
Every time this comes up, people make various suggestions how to make grouping better, but they are almost always shot down by the grouping-advocates who don't want to play anything but a forced-grouping game. You don't want content that automatically gets harder or acts differently if you're in a group, you want to make everyone else around you group as well.
So long as you want to control the lives of everyone around you, I have little sympathy.
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Absolutely not.
I like to group and I like to solo. Why would I play a game where one of those activities doesn't advance my character? There are plenty of games around that support both playstyles. I find the connotation that soloers should become second-class players in comparison to groupers to be slightly offensive.
So groupers being second class players is alright then? But of course you don't see them as second class do you?
That's the whole issue how do we balance the solo and group dynamic and make a game everyone wants to play. It is like squaring a circle, some say lets give up and play the same MMO on differant servers. But that would cost a shed load to implement and dilute the player base, MMO designers have nightmares about that sort of thing.
So there is no easy solution, the queston is can we find any solution at all?
having gameplay that is centered around group play is great, but not for everyone. Why is this discussion brought up so much? Its clearly a matter of taste, some people hate running around doing tasks/killing mobs by themselves for hours. Others hate going through the hastle of finding groups or just dont want to be with others in a game.
Personally I hate soloing in an MMORPG, I dont expect everyone to think like me, nor do I think every game should be built around how I want. Would it be so crazy to have some solo based games and group based games available for everyone? Sadly I cant recall a game that was made for group play ever since FFXI came out....which has been quite some time.
God knows. The topic of "Why Do People Solo And Not Group?", and the people who keep bringing the topic up, are like a fart in a spacesuit - they never go away. Every time the topic is dragged back into the light of day - which seems at least once per week - the people who adore grouping whine, cry, QQ, bitch and moan. They're like some clingy, religious cult out to convert us all... by force if need be, because to them, Grouping Is The Right And Proper Way. The more they are told the reasons why many people prefer to solo, the more obtuse they get.
For the last time (in my dreams...) here are the basic reasons people solo, which are self-evident to anyone with a spare synapse:-
1) Game companies make content too easy in order to attract more players and in the process, their money. This makes content doable for even the most inept, clueless group, but also makes it easy to solo for an experienced MMO player.
2) When soloing, there is also no need to split XP and mob drops with anyone, so you level up and get richer, faster.
3) Way too many players are dumb as rocks. Why suffer them when you don't need to.
4) People who solo are NOT antisocial. I routinely voice-chat with people I actually know in real life, rather than a monosyllabic cluster of pixels on a screen that thinks "m8" and "Lol" are all the social skills they need. I'm having a ball, thanks very much.
Well, until the next time this topic crops up - say in a couple of days - that's this stale old topic done.
Groupers, especially hardcore groupers, are "second class players" simply by the fact that they represent a smaller financial sector in the MMO community than soloers. Therefore, you might not get everything you want, especially if what you want is to force everyone on the server to play in groups whether they want to or not. Deal with it. Every time someone comes up with an idea that will allow groupers to have that "challenging content", nobody wants it because it doesn't force everyone around them to do it the same way.
So no, if your criteria is forcing grouping on other people, give up, you're never going to get it, nor should you. MMOs are going to cater to the largest player base possible. That isn't you. Either accept that and play or move on.
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[quote]Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
[color=#00ff00] Then you are only forced because of your own limited viewpoint. I group for challenging content all the time in those solo friendly games, and if the content gets to easy we go to other more challenging content. The content for challenging groups and challenging solo play is there, very evident and very easy to find for both situations, plus I get more xp, and greater rewards for the grouping content than I do when playing solo.[b][quote]
Originally posted by Ihmotepp
[quote]
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Seriously in most games today there is no longer an either, or, developers have generally found ways that let you play the way you want whenever you want (in terms of group play and solo anyway, sandbox still has a way to go). So the only limitations these days are really you.
These posts don't really have a point anymore, you can choose how you want to play.
Venge Sunsoar
1
You are wrong, the content for todays solo friendly MMO,s are very very limited in it's group oriented content..and also a game that is developed mainly for the solocrowd will have it's community react upon that and solo even thou there is a small amount of group content to be found, or atleast make it very hard to find a decent group or even impossible
I think your wrong. In todays games there is enough challenging group content to level all day every day right up to level cap. Then end game is usually group oriented. Today there is never a single time I need to solo unless there is no one on, which happens in many low pop games.
Even the dreaded WoW. My druid is 50, I know I'm slow, (just stopped playing again) and I have grouped far far far more than I have soloed. Actually I think I only soloed for the first 10 levels for him.
So there is enough grouping content, and there are people wanting to group. You just need to find them, and it's not that difficult. The major problem is no one wants to lead the team and so no groups are formed.
Games I've played in the last year - WoW, Ryzom, CoH, Vanguard. The only games I've had difficulty grouping this year is Ryzom and Vanguard because of low pops.
Venge Sunsoar
You like solo games. Ok, that's great. I hope developers makes lots of solo games you to enjoy.
I like group games.
You don't hope developers make group games for me, and you have no sympathy for me. You want me to be happy playing your solo game, and that's it.
Who wants to control the lives of others in this scenario?
Yes. They are challenging for YOU.
But I"m sure, for example, Tiger Woods might find a golf course you think is challenging, not so challenging right?
Could it be that someone on the planet might not have the exact same perception of "challenge" as you do?
Grouping is easy. No one is asking to be able to group through solo content, at least I'm not.
I'm asking for good group content, which WoW and CoH lack. Vangaurd is a little bit better, can't speak to Ryzom, I haven't played it.
No I readily admit that for YOU, WoW and CoH might have wonderful challenging group content.
For me, WoW has no challenging group content, until you get to the end game.
But, everyone has to look at "challenge" like you do, right?
Now as far as solo friendly games go, City of Heroes was a lot of fun, and I did enjoy playing it. But the scaling dungeons, pretty much regulate it to a solo game. And I did group through City of Heroes, but I felt like I was grouping through a solo game, not playing good group content.
If that's true, why do most MMORPGs have raiding at the end, which is forced grouping?
Thats part of the problem. They are making grouping games. They are making games that have lots of grouping and challenging content. They are not hard to find those games, nor are they hard to find in games that allready exist.
Games today have lots of challenging grouping content. Don't find it challenging, do a harder mob or a harder quest, it will become challenging. Games today reward groupers more with better loot and more xp. Games today hardly take any time to find groups, often minutes.
So easy to get groups, easy to find good grouping content and lots of grouping content.
You want to make it so that no one can ever solo in that game, that makes it you that is controling the lives of others in that scenarior. Developers have made and are making what you want. Quit trying to make it so no one else can get anything.
Venge Sunsoar
edit: On a more practical note, Imhotepp your view is so extreme I seriously doubt there are enough of you to make any game any money. And so your only choices are to leave the genre, continue to grumble and complain and be unhappy about everything or compromise.
Yes, I do understand you think that's "challenging" group content.
I do not.
Not everyone will think something is "challenging" because you do.
Different people may have different perceptions of what is "challenging". could that be a possibility? Or, you think that's impossible? Everyone MUST think something is challenging, if you do?
It's not like I'm the only one on this forum that likes grouping games.
So your argument is that this is a great design, grouping games like DaoC and EQ, and you fully support it and you wish there were more games like this for me to play, but you're simply worried for the profits of Developers?
I'm starting to think you have some reading comprehension difficulties. My argument was made above that statement, this was as stated on a more practical note, nor was it about profit although that factors into it. The argument is there needs to be a market to sustain that. Your extreme is not what EQ and DaoC were, because you could solo to level cap in both of those.
By your own statement, if I can solo to cap why would I group. Your view is extreme, you want a game where there is no soloing at all, because if there is then you are playing a solo game - You have stated this many many times - this type of mentality is not shared by by many people at all, and I seriously doubt there are enough of you to suppot a game, therefore a game would not be made because it would be a money losing proposition and no company wants to lose money. Since you could solo in EQ and DaoC I guess those are solo games.
Once again was that my only comment, no, read please, that was just a practical one.
Venge Sunsoar
You are forced to group if you want to raid - which by definition is doing something with multiple-groups - so that's like saying "you're forced to group if you want to group", which is kinda self-explanatory.
But you aren't forced to raid. If you don't like to raid, don't. I love raiding in EQ2 and play almost exclusively to do that. However, I know countless people who play EQ2 that don't like or want to raid. So guess what? They make the choice not to raid. And none forces them to.
Perhaps you will say, but if I want to get raid loot, I am forced to raid. Yes, yes you are. But that raid loot is part of raid gameplay. No one forces you to want raid loot.
In a single player game, there is goal, you have to get to the end, pass the game, save the princess. Then the game ends.
In an MMO, there is no set "winning condition", there is no set goal that everyone has to achieve. You choose what goals you have. No one forces you into any of them. If you CHOOSE to have a goal of having all raid gear, then you're forced to raid. But no one forces you to have that goal. If your goal is to be a good crafter, you aren't forced to raid. If your goal is to have the biggest dark elf guild on the server, you don't have to raid. If your goal is to do all the solo content in the game, you never have to raid. If your goal is to do all the group content in the game, you never have to raid.
Also, I don't know about others (though I assume they're pretty similar), but in EQ2, the % of raid encounters as taken of total encounters available is about 2% or less. Yet I still enjoy the raiding very much, even if the majority of the game is made for grouping and soloing.
Does it really have to be totally black and white? 100% solo content for a game? or 100% group content? Why is choice bad?
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
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