I'm still confused as to what you really want out of a MMORPG Ihmotepp.
1. I mean, on the one hand you hate solo content. So let's remove questing (at least in the WoW / LotRo / Aion / AoC etc. kind)
2. You also hate raiding, so let's remove any raid content. Maximum party/group size is a single party. 4-6 players.
3. You want there to be special strategy and skills for groups, like group skill chains or abilities etc.
4. You don't seem to like instancing as it takes away from the "open world" aspect. So no instances.
5. You also don't like guilds or playing with friends, as that is "just as boring of a pain in the ass as solo."
So what you are left with.... is FFXI without the raiding and the last few solo-friendly patches/expansions.
Or EQ1 without the raiding or newbie areas.
Or SWG pre-NGE but without the story-quest PoI's and mission terminals.
So in your "ideal" game -
You'd grind mobs in the open world either out in the wilds or in non-instanced dungeons with a party of strangers. No mobs would require more then a single group to kill. All mobs would require groups and group skills to kill. There would be no quests or quest rewards for anything other then maybe killing certain named mobs as part of a mob grinding group.
Crafting and gathering would be important to the economy, but because you can't stand solo content all resource locations require multiple players to harvest, and for every crafting recipe you need more players then just yourself to do the work and complete it, you couldn't even make a part of the object solo.
So it'd be like the Union or State worker's MMORPG.
Oh, and you'd have no friends list or guild support. And in order to make sure you don't actually get to know any of the random people you play with in PUGs you are periodically and randomly switched to different servers.
You're off base quite a bit.
There are some things that affect me in the game, and some that don't.
For example, I want challenging group content. Well, to make it challenging for a group, by necessity, makes it difficult for a solo player.
So, to make the game soloable to the cap, like WoW, you essentially have to dumb down the group content. That affects my game play, becuase now you've ruined the group content for me.
And if you ad challenging group content for me, you now have the typical WoW player crying "forced grouping" because you've ruined their solo content.
I certainly am not asking to group through solo content (boring and zero challenge), and the solo player cannot solo through group content.
One must affect the other. Make it easy enough for the solo player, it's to easy for me. Make it challenging for me, it's to hard for the solo player.
And you have to understand it must be a REAL challenge for me, not one I make up in my head with pretend rules. In other words it must be unavoidable. If I can avoid the challenge, it's not real.
The REAL challenge, is always teh least effort required to accomplish the goal, not some made up rules that don't really exist, to pretend the challenge is harder that it really is.
For example, you can get this sword of uberness, by either killing one worm solo, or spending 3 days fighting through a difficult dungeon that requires a group of 7 players.
The REAL challenge? Killing one worm solo. The other part is just made up crap that is pointless.
However, raiding has ZERO affect on me. When I am level 2, whether a raid exists in the game or not is of no consequence to me whatsoever. It does not change how I get to level 3 in any way. So raids are fine, I dont' have to do them, and they dont' affect my game play.
Quests on the other hand, CAN affect my game play. If the best XP is questing, then that becomes the challenge, doing quests.
I think Quests are fine in moderation. If questing is hands down the best way to level, to the point you should ignore grinding on mobs, it's boring.
But if it's an even split, some questing, some grinding, I dont' mind that.
Guilds and real world friends don't affect me. Whether you join a guild, or game with real world friends, doesnt' change how I get from level 2 to level 3 in any way. Doesn't change the game play for me. So they are fine, I dont' have to do them if I don't want to.
Instances sucks, and make the game feel like Diablo, not like an MMORPG. Diablo is fun, but I'd like to play an MMORPG.
My favorite game was DAoC. But you can't play the same game forever, and they wrecked DAoC with TOA.
You're off base quite a bit. Let's try again then!
There are some things that affect me in the game, and some that don't. So all about you?
For example, I want challenging group content. Well, to make it challenging for a group, by necessity, makes it difficult for a solo player. So your play style > theirs? Why can't you do both?
So, to make the game soloable to the cap, like WoW, you essentially have to dumb down the group content. That affects my game play, becuase now you've ruined the group content for me. You ever tried to solo "group" content in WoW that is at your level? Probably not. *hint* still requires a group! you are 100% wrong.
And if you ad challenging group content for me, you now have the typical WoW player crying "forced grouping" because you've ruined their solo content. See WoW gives you both! OMG what an idea to give both!
I certainly am not asking to group through solo content (boring and zero challenge), and the solo player cannot solo through group content. Most accurate and truthful thing you've said yet.
One must affect the other. Make it easy enough for the solo player, it's to easy for me. Make it challenging for me, it's to hard for the solo player. That's if you only have one type of content. Grinding mobs. Expand your mind!
And you have to understand it must be a REAL challenge for me, not one I make up in my head with pretend rules. In other words it must be unavoidable. If I can avoid the challenge, it's not real. So you have to force your challenges on others so they can't avoid them to so they "need" you, i'm starting to get it...
The REAL challenge, is always teh least effort required to accomplish the goal, not some made up rules that don't really exist, to pretend the challenge is harder that it really is. Really? I thought "path of least resistence is the "easy" way to do things??
For example, you can get this sword of uberness, by either killing one worm solo, or spending 3 days fighting through a difficult dungeon that requires a group of 7 players.
The REAL challenge? Killing one worm solo. The other part is just made up crap that is pointless. This all makes no sense. Time does NOT = challenge. 3 days fighting through a DIFFICULT dungeon = more challenging then a 10 second solo kill.
However, raiding has ZERO affect on me. When I am level 2, whether a raid exists in the game or not is of no consequence to me whatsoever. It does not change how I get to level 3 in any way. So raids are fine, I dont' have to do them, and they dont' affect my game play. So again it's all about you? What about the level 50-60 content? It doesn't "exist" to you yet because you are level 2 or 3. Is that no consequence too? Because one day if you play enough you'll be there.
Quests on the other hand, CAN affect my game play. If the best XP is questing, then that becomes the challenge, doing quests. So again it's about maximizing YOUR rewards? I see...
I think Quests are fine in moderation. If questing is hands down the best way to level, to the point you should ignore grinding on mobs, it's boring. I agree, you need variety.
But if it's an even split, some questing, some grinding, I dont' mind that.
Guilds and real world friends don't affect me. Whether you join a guild, or game with real world friends, doesnt' change how I get from level 2 to level 3 in any way. Doesn't change the game play for me. So they are fine, I dont' have to do them if I don't want to. That is a very solo minded and selfish closed-off mind set.
Instances sucks, and make the game feel like Diablo, not like an MMORPG. Diablo is fun, but I'd like to play an MMORPG. I do agree on the over-use of instances and its negative effects on MMORPGs.
tl; dr version?
You want "your" way to be fastest and most efficient.
If 50% of the players level up solo doing quests, and 50% are grouped up all the time grinding mobs that still isn't good enough because not everyone is following your ideals? Even if they level at the exact same rate?
You are one of the few people I have ever seen on these forums that thinks choice is a bad thing.
I usually hate whenever somebody says "if you want to do X then go play Y and stop playing MMOs" which is the typical response to anytime somebody brings up twitch based combat. Usually this response is just stupid.
But in this case it works. Go play Left 4 Dead. And I don't mean that as "got play L4D and leave MMOs" but rather as an honest suggestion. The game is entirely focused on group play, if you run off by yourself you are screwed. And the game is challenging, and not the psuedo-challenge that MMOs have, you actually have to think and coordinate, no ammount of leveling and gear can make you win. Obviously it isn't a MMO but it is a pure grouping experience.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
You're off base quite a bit. Let's try again then!
There are some things that affect me in the game, and some that don't. So all about you?
For example, I want challenging group content. Well, to make it challenging for a group, by necessity, makes it difficult for a solo player. So your play style > theirs? Why can't you do both?
So, to make the game soloable to the cap, like WoW, you essentially have to dumb down the group content. That affects my game play, becuase now you've ruined the group content for me. You ever tried to solo "group" content in WoW that is at your level? Probably not. *hint* still requires a group! you are 100% wrong.
And if you ad challenging group content for me, you now have the typical WoW player crying "forced grouping" because you've ruined their solo content. See WoW gives you both! OMG what an idea to give both!
I certainly am not asking to group through solo content (boring and zero challenge), and the solo player cannot solo through group content. Most accurate and truthful thing you've said yet.
One must affect the other. Make it easy enough for the solo player, it's to easy for me. Make it challenging for me, it's to hard for the solo player. That's if you only have one type of content. Grinding mobs. Expand your mind!
And you have to understand it must be a REAL challenge for me, not one I make up in my head with pretend rules. In other words it must be unavoidable. If I can avoid the challenge, it's not real. So you have to force your challenges on others so they can't avoid them to so they "need" you, i'm starting to get it...
The REAL challenge, is always teh least effort required to accomplish the goal, not some made up rules that don't really exist, to pretend the challenge is harder that it really is. Really? I thought "path of least resistence is the "easy" way to do things??
For example, you can get this sword of uberness, by either killing one worm solo, or spending 3 days fighting through a difficult dungeon that requires a group of 7 players.
The REAL challenge? Killing one worm solo. The other part is just made up crap that is pointless. This all makes no sense. Time does NOT = challenge. 3 days fighting through a DIFFICULT dungeon = more challenging then a 10 second solo kill.
However, raiding has ZERO affect on me. When I am level 2, whether a raid exists in the game or not is of no consequence to me whatsoever. It does not change how I get to level 3 in any way. So raids are fine, I dont' have to do them, and they dont' affect my game play. So again it's all about you? What about the level 50-60 content? It doesn't "exist" to you yet because you are level 2 or 3. Is that no consequence too? Because one day if you play enough you'll be there.
Quests on the other hand, CAN affect my game play. If the best XP is questing, then that becomes the challenge, doing quests. So again it's about maximizing YOUR rewards? I see...
I think Quests are fine in moderation. If questing is hands down the best way to level, to the point you should ignore grinding on mobs, it's boring. I agree, you need variety.
But if it's an even split, some questing, some grinding, I dont' mind that.
Guilds and real world friends don't affect me. Whether you join a guild, or game with real world friends, doesnt' change how I get from level 2 to level 3 in any way. Doesn't change the game play for me. So they are fine, I dont' have to do them if I don't want to. That is a very solo minded and selfish closed-off mind set.
Instances sucks, and make the game feel like Diablo, not like an MMORPG. Diablo is fun, but I'd like to play an MMORPG. I do agree on the over-use of instances and its negative effects on MMORPGs.
tl; dr version?
You want "your" way to be fastest and most efficient.
If 50% of the players level up solo doing quests, and 50% are grouped up all the time grinding mobs that still isn't good enough because not everyone is following your ideals? Even if they level at the exact same rate?
You are one of the few people I have ever seen on these forums that thinks choice is a bad thing.
Of course it's "all about me". I'm describing a game I find fun, just like you are describing a game you find fun. I'm not asking to play a game I don't like, that you find fun, and you certainly dont' want to play a game I like that you don't find fun, right?
I don't understand this imaginary "choice" you are making up.
My "choice" in WoW, pre-raid, is to group through solo content.,
How is that a "choice"? That's a solo game. Because you'll let me group through solo content, that's a "choice"? WTF?!!
Have you actually played DaoC or EQ?
I think maybe that's the problem, that you don't actually understadn what good group content is.
In DAoC, there was good group content, pre-end game, pre-raid.
In WoW, there is solo content, I can group through if I wanted to.
Why would I want to group through solo content?
Why do you keep saying I should want to group through solo content?
I don't think that's fun.
If you like grouping through solo content, great! Play WoW.
What is the difference between an uber high solo player who is a complete d8ck and a small group of mid level players who are collectively a d*ck? it happens I should know I played Darkfall for a long time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
For me, this is the only thing that makes an MMORPG interesting enough to play. The fact that you do not know what your fellow players are going to do at any given moment in time.
Wait a minute. I just answered a post of yours where you say you don't like publci quests because there is no coordination.
Yet here you say that what makes grouping fun is the uncertainty of what will happen from the party members.
can you explain that difference?
edit; because as I said i the other post, what makes grouping fun for me is that there is minimal coordination and that players just know their role and then react and act depending on what the encounter brings.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
For me, this is the only thing that makes an MMORPG interesting enough to play. The fact that you do not know what your fellow players are going to do at any given moment in time.
Wait a minute. I just answered a post of yours where you say you don't like publci quests because there is no coordination.
Yet here you say that what makes grouping fun is the uncertainty of what will happen from the party members.
can you explain that difference?
edit; because as I said i the other post, what makes grouping fun for me is that there is minimal coordination and that players just know their role and then react and act depending on what the encounter brings.
In the public quests in WAR, you can just run around and kill stuff, then decide you're bored with it, and wander off.
If you are deep in the bottom of a dungeon in DAoC, you're going to either pay very, very close attention to what your party members are doing, or you are going to die, and if your party members die, and you don't, you're not walking out of there alive unless you can get them rezzed.
Stop grouping with the idiots that cause problems. In a group centric game, these people quickly get weeded out. Take a raid for example. If someone is an idiot and doing stupid things to wipe the raid, replace them and never invite them back. Eventually these people will get barred from enough raids that they can't get any raid invites.
Now apply this to general advancement. If you have to group to level, the same thing will happen. Bad players will develop a reputation for being bad, and noone will group with them. Eventually they'll get frustrated and leave the game.
Automatic group placement however, is completely counter-intuitive to this entire premise however, and overall diminishes the quality of group play by removing a lot of the player made checks.
Stop grouping with the idiots that cause problems. In a group centric game, these people quickly get weeded out. Take a raid for example. If someone is an idiot and doing stupid things to wipe the raid, replace them and never invite them back. Eventually these people will get barred from enough raids that they can't get any raid invites.
Now apply this to general advancement. If you have to group to level, the same thing will happen. Bad players will develop a reputation for being bad, and noone will group with them. Eventually they'll get frustrated and leave the game.
Automatic group placement however, is completely counter-intuitive to this entire premise however, and overall diminishes the quality of group play by removing a lot of the player made checks.
No logical company would ever want to do this.
Designing systems to limit and actually shrink their subscriber base.
Smart business decision... No offense Ceridith just pointing out the obvious.
So either invent a time machine and go back and play DaoC or EQ...
Or stop posting.
Because seriously, what do you want?
All this nostalgia and "back in this game" crap does NOTHING to advance this genre and move forward.
The arguments are pointless and repetitious.
Well, that is right. Nostalgia wont help anyone.
But devs do look on other games when they make a game and those games did a lot of things right also.
The future of MMOs will neither be Everquest nor Wow. EQ is over since long and Wow is getting there in time too. Things like grouping needs to be taken to a new level.
Guildwars 2 is changing this a lot and it is possible that they might have the solution. Or someone else will make it but it wont be what we have in current games.
Random PUGs isn't a great idea and neither is instancing all group content. But that doesn't mean that someone should remake EQ exactly as it was at launch but with better graphics. We already played similar games for 12 years now, it is time for something new.
And if Arenanet doesn't deliver then someone else will, like CCP maybe.
And WAR had by the way a good idea with public quests but it was just too simple. No scaling is one of the things that killed it off. It might not ever work but the idea is interesting.
Designing systems to limit and actually shrink their subscriber base.
Smart business decision... No offense Ceridith just pointing out the obvious.
Good communities on the other hand attracts players. And few games succeeds with making everyone happy so there is some merit to the thing. If you don't plan to be the top game but want a game with medium playerbase it is not bad.
Designing systems to limit and actually shrink their subscriber base.
Smart business decision... No offense Ceridith just pointing out the obvious.
Good communities on the other hand attracts players. And few games succeeds with making everyone happy so there is some merit to the thing. If you don't plan to be the top game but want a game with medium playerbase it is not bad.
But I see why Wow did as they did.
Very good point thank you.
But good community and "word of mouth" can only go so far. As you've said developers need to be 'happy' at having a comfortable and profitable number of subs for the size and scope of their operation.
Every dev would like to have more subs, but finding those that are ok with the number they have when compared to others? I imagine that is harder... so they look and see what the other guys are doing right.
The Leroy Jenkins video was one of the reasons I never subbed to WoW. Not that I might end up on a team with a guy like that, but that I might actually get on a team with one of them other jackholes. You do this, you do that, after that you do this and two seconds later, and it better be two seconds on the dot, you do such and such. Four hours of calculation for a 15 minute fight. Screw that. If that's how you play a game you're doing it wrong. It made me see that WoW endgame isn't fun, it's practice to be a fucking accountant.
You do realize noone calculates fights like that? And OP...very well said.
Stop grouping with the idiots that cause problems. In a group centric game, these people quickly get weeded out. Take a raid for example. If someone is an idiot and doing stupid things to wipe the raid, replace them and never invite them back. Eventually these people will get barred from enough raids that they can't get any raid invites.
Now apply this to general advancement. If you have to group to level, the same thing will happen. Bad players will develop a reputation for being bad, and noone will group with them. Eventually they'll get frustrated and leave the game.
Automatic group placement however, is completely counter-intuitive to this entire premise however, and overall diminishes the quality of group play by removing a lot of the player made checks.
No logical company would ever want to do this.
Designing systems to limit and actually shrink their subscriber base.
Smart business decision... No offense Ceridith just pointing out the obvious.
This was the way EQ worked, and it did just fine. The idiots were weeded out and ended up leaving because soloing was not a very viable option in that game.
It's not illogical game design, it's simply a different design philosophy.
Catering to as many playestyles as possible does not make a game better, it just makes it more accessible. In fact, it seems to be that in every case of making the game more accessible, it causes several features of the game to be degraded in some way. So rather than doing a few features particularly well for a certain market segment, the game ends up being mediocre at best at several things, for everyone.
It is, essentially, comparing WoW to Eve.
WoW is very generic and accessible. No mechanics are particularly spectacular, most are mediocre at best due to trying to make the game appeal to so many different audiences. They have the largest subscriberbase, but they also have some of the most discontent players.
EvE on the other hand, sticks to it's guns about being hardcore, focusing on a player driven economy and corporation gameplay. It doesn't have as big a subscriber base as WoW, but it's subscribers are overall much more content with the game, and as such significantly more loyal.
Again, design philosophy. And now CCP is trying somethign very smart. Rather than alter their existing game in a manner that caters to a wider audience, they are creating a new game that integrates on a broader level with the existing one. They are staying strong to their initial niche game, and creating a new niche game that will work in synergy with their existing one.
We'll see just how that turns out, but it has a great deal of potential.
And I don't know about you, but I would much rather see more developers focus on creating their own niche games and building niche games aroudn each other, than trying to create games that try to cater to every playstyle possible just enough to try to keep their attention. The real competition against WoW is in the latter design philosophy, from many different developers.
WoW absolutely killed any joy of PUGs I ever had AND made for guild runs of geared out people insanely fun...like pull a whole room and nuke the hell out of it (including the holy nova, fire totems, or whatever normally useless skills you can use), for fun.
FFXI on the other hand, had some of the best PUGs I've ever experienced - even in groups where all I understood was "fisherman". But unfortunately for me, now back in FFXI after years of WoW - the hate of PUGs trumps it.
At the end of the day, make some friends...so you can solo and/or group, whenever you feel like it (and you never have to worry about Leeroy). And after a few years in WoW & FFXI, and yes ago in EQ & AC...I hope grouping is never forced, but the delightful occasional option or a way to raid
For me, this is the only thing that makes an MMORPG interesting enough to play. The fact that you do not know what your fellow players are going to do at any given moment in time.
Wait a minute. I just answered a post of yours where you say you don't like publci quests because there is no coordination.
Yet here you say that what makes grouping fun is the uncertainty of what will happen from the party members.
can you explain that difference?
edit; because as I said i the other post, what makes grouping fun for me is that there is minimal coordination and that players just know their role and then react and act depending on what the encounter brings.
Bingo... I'd rather leave the uncertainty and unpredictability to the encounters. I'd much rather the people I'm grouped with be reasonably consistent and reliable in reacting to those situations
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Bingo... I'd rather leave the uncertainty and unpredictability to the encounters. I'd much rather the people I'm grouped with be reasonably consistent and reliable in reacting to those situations
Just like you'd want encounters that are unpredictable, but enough consistency so you can establish a pattern.
It's two sides to the same coin. Both elements are ingredients to the same recipe.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Most know who Leroy Jenkins is, some don't. There's a video on youtube, where Leroy single handedly gets a raid party wiped, while constantly yelling his name over Vent (Leroy Jenkins).....
Why did Leroy do it? Well, it looks like he got bored while everyone was debating on exactly how to attack the mobs, but I'm not sure exactly why he did it.
To follow the OP's original sandbox = soloing analogy, then forced grouping to a soloer is like playing in that sandbox (counting sand, according to the OP) when someone runs up and craps in it. That's PUGging in a nutshell.
Comments
You're off base quite a bit.
There are some things that affect me in the game, and some that don't.
For example, I want challenging group content. Well, to make it challenging for a group, by necessity, makes it difficult for a solo player.
So, to make the game soloable to the cap, like WoW, you essentially have to dumb down the group content. That affects my game play, becuase now you've ruined the group content for me.
And if you ad challenging group content for me, you now have the typical WoW player crying "forced grouping" because you've ruined their solo content.
I certainly am not asking to group through solo content (boring and zero challenge), and the solo player cannot solo through group content.
One must affect the other. Make it easy enough for the solo player, it's to easy for me. Make it challenging for me, it's to hard for the solo player.
And you have to understand it must be a REAL challenge for me, not one I make up in my head with pretend rules. In other words it must be unavoidable. If I can avoid the challenge, it's not real.
The REAL challenge, is always teh least effort required to accomplish the goal, not some made up rules that don't really exist, to pretend the challenge is harder that it really is.
For example, you can get this sword of uberness, by either killing one worm solo, or spending 3 days fighting through a difficult dungeon that requires a group of 7 players.
The REAL challenge? Killing one worm solo. The other part is just made up crap that is pointless.
However, raiding has ZERO affect on me. When I am level 2, whether a raid exists in the game or not is of no consequence to me whatsoever. It does not change how I get to level 3 in any way. So raids are fine, I dont' have to do them, and they dont' affect my game play.
Quests on the other hand, CAN affect my game play. If the best XP is questing, then that becomes the challenge, doing quests.
I think Quests are fine in moderation. If questing is hands down the best way to level, to the point you should ignore grinding on mobs, it's boring.
But if it's an even split, some questing, some grinding, I dont' mind that.
Guilds and real world friends don't affect me. Whether you join a guild, or game with real world friends, doesnt' change how I get from level 2 to level 3 in any way. Doesn't change the game play for me. So they are fine, I dont' have to do them if I don't want to.
Instances sucks, and make the game feel like Diablo, not like an MMORPG. Diablo is fun, but I'd like to play an MMORPG.
My favorite game was DAoC. But you can't play the same game forever, and they wrecked DAoC with TOA.
tl; dr version?
You want "your" way to be fastest and most efficient.
If 50% of the players level up solo doing quests, and 50% are grouped up all the time grinding mobs that still isn't good enough because not everyone is following your ideals? Even if they level at the exact same rate?
You are one of the few people I have ever seen on these forums that thinks choice is a bad thing.
I usually hate whenever somebody says "if you want to do X then go play Y and stop playing MMOs" which is the typical response to anytime somebody brings up twitch based combat. Usually this response is just stupid.
But in this case it works. Go play Left 4 Dead. And I don't mean that as "got play L4D and leave MMOs" but rather as an honest suggestion. The game is entirely focused on group play, if you run off by yourself you are screwed. And the game is challenging, and not the psuedo-challenge that MMOs have, you actually have to think and coordinate, no ammount of leveling and gear can make you win. Obviously it isn't a MMO but it is a pure grouping experience.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Of course it's "all about me". I'm describing a game I find fun, just like you are describing a game you find fun. I'm not asking to play a game I don't like, that you find fun, and you certainly dont' want to play a game I like that you don't find fun, right?
I don't understand this imaginary "choice" you are making up.
My "choice" in WoW, pre-raid, is to group through solo content.,
How is that a "choice"? That's a solo game. Because you'll let me group through solo content, that's a "choice"? WTF?!!
Have you actually played DaoC or EQ?
I think maybe that's the problem, that you don't actually understadn what good group content is.
In DAoC, there was good group content, pre-end game, pre-raid.
In WoW, there is solo content, I can group through if I wanted to.
Why would I want to group through solo content?
Why do you keep saying I should want to group through solo content?
I don't think that's fun.
If you like grouping through solo content, great! Play WoW.
"My "choice" in WoW, pre-raid, is to group through solo content.,
How is that a "choice"? That's a solo game. Because you'll let me group through solo content, that's a "choice"? WTF?!!
Have you actually played DaoC or EQ?
I think maybe that's the problem, that you don't actually understadn what good group content is.
In DAoC, there was good group content, pre-end game, pre-raid.
In WoW, there is solo content, I can group through if I wanted to.
Why would I want to group through solo content?
Why do you keep saying I should want to group through solo content?
I don't think that's fun.
If you like grouping through solo content, great! Play WoW. "
Have you tried WoW's Dungeon Finder? PUGs all the time trough group content. Plenty of Leeroy Jenkins moments.
TO OP:
What is the difference between an uber high solo player who is a complete d8ck and a small group of mid level players who are collectively a d*ck? it happens I should know I played Darkfall for a long time.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Wait a minute. I just answered a post of yours where you say you don't like publci quests because there is no coordination.
Yet here you say that what makes grouping fun is the uncertainty of what will happen from the party members.
can you explain that difference?
edit; because as I said i the other post, what makes grouping fun for me is that there is minimal coordination and that players just know their role and then react and act depending on what the encounter brings.
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Yes, well theres' a trade off there isn't there?
You've added more grouping, but you've lost the open world MMORPG, and traded it for a Diablo type of game haven't you?
I did like Diablo. It was a fun game.
But I also like MMORPGs that are open world, and not lobby games like Diablo.
Plus, IMO, the grouping content in WoW, is still not up to par with the group content of EQ or DAoC.
Still feels like playing solo with other players around by comparison.
Your mileage may vary.
In the public quests in WAR, you can just run around and kill stuff, then decide you're bored with it, and wander off.
If you are deep in the bottom of a dungeon in DAoC, you're going to either pay very, very close attention to what your party members are doing, or you are going to die, and if your party members die, and you don't, you're not walking out of there alive unless you can get them rezzed.
So either invent a time machine and go back and play DaoC or EQ...
Or stop posting.
Because seriously, what do you want?
All this nostalgia and "back in this game" crap does NOTHING to advance this genre and move forward.
The arguments are pointless and repetitious.
The flaw in the arguement:
Stop grouping with the idiots that cause problems. In a group centric game, these people quickly get weeded out. Take a raid for example. If someone is an idiot and doing stupid things to wipe the raid, replace them and never invite them back. Eventually these people will get barred from enough raids that they can't get any raid invites.
Now apply this to general advancement. If you have to group to level, the same thing will happen. Bad players will develop a reputation for being bad, and noone will group with them. Eventually they'll get frustrated and leave the game.
Automatic group placement however, is completely counter-intuitive to this entire premise however, and overall diminishes the quality of group play by removing a lot of the player made checks.
No logical company would ever want to do this.
Designing systems to limit and actually shrink their subscriber base.
Smart business decision...
No offense Ceridith just pointing out the obvious.
Well, that is right. Nostalgia wont help anyone.
But devs do look on other games when they make a game and those games did a lot of things right also.
The future of MMOs will neither be Everquest nor Wow. EQ is over since long and Wow is getting there in time too. Things like grouping needs to be taken to a new level.
Guildwars 2 is changing this a lot and it is possible that they might have the solution. Or someone else will make it but it wont be what we have in current games.
Random PUGs isn't a great idea and neither is instancing all group content. But that doesn't mean that someone should remake EQ exactly as it was at launch but with better graphics. We already played similar games for 12 years now, it is time for something new.
And if Arenanet doesn't deliver then someone else will, like CCP maybe.
And WAR had by the way a good idea with public quests but it was just too simple. No scaling is one of the things that killed it off. It might not ever work but the idea is interesting.
Good communities on the other hand attracts players. And few games succeeds with making everyone happy so there is some merit to the thing. If you don't plan to be the top game but want a game with medium playerbase it is not bad.
But I see why Wow did as they did.
Very good point thank you.
But good community and "word of mouth" can only go so far. As you've said developers need to be 'happy' at having a comfortable and profitable number of subs for the size and scope of their operation.
Every dev would like to have more subs, but finding those that are ok with the number they have when compared to others? I imagine that is harder... so they look and see what the other guys are doing right.
You do realize noone calculates fights like that? And OP...very well said.
Oh I see.
Only people that like WoW, or like the same games you like should be allowed to post on MMORPG.com.
that would make for such a wonderfully interesting and diverse forum.
This was the way EQ worked, and it did just fine. The idiots were weeded out and ended up leaving because soloing was not a very viable option in that game.
It's not illogical game design, it's simply a different design philosophy.
Catering to as many playestyles as possible does not make a game better, it just makes it more accessible. In fact, it seems to be that in every case of making the game more accessible, it causes several features of the game to be degraded in some way. So rather than doing a few features particularly well for a certain market segment, the game ends up being mediocre at best at several things, for everyone.
It is, essentially, comparing WoW to Eve.
WoW is very generic and accessible. No mechanics are particularly spectacular, most are mediocre at best due to trying to make the game appeal to so many different audiences. They have the largest subscriberbase, but they also have some of the most discontent players.
EvE on the other hand, sticks to it's guns about being hardcore, focusing on a player driven economy and corporation gameplay. It doesn't have as big a subscriber base as WoW, but it's subscribers are overall much more content with the game, and as such significantly more loyal.
Again, design philosophy. And now CCP is trying somethign very smart. Rather than alter their existing game in a manner that caters to a wider audience, they are creating a new game that integrates on a broader level with the existing one. They are staying strong to their initial niche game, and creating a new niche game that will work in synergy with their existing one.
We'll see just how that turns out, but it has a great deal of potential.
And I don't know about you, but I would much rather see more developers focus on creating their own niche games and building niche games aroudn each other, than trying to create games that try to cater to every playstyle possible just enough to try to keep their attention. The real competition against WoW is in the latter design philosophy, from many different developers.
How about both and like it
WoW absolutely killed any joy of PUGs I ever had AND made for guild runs of geared out people insanely fun...like pull a whole room and nuke the hell out of it (including the holy nova, fire totems, or whatever normally useless skills you can use), for fun.
FFXI on the other hand, had some of the best PUGs I've ever experienced - even in groups where all I understood was "fisherman". But unfortunately for me, now back in FFXI after years of WoW - the hate of PUGs trumps it.
At the end of the day, make some friends...so you can solo and/or group, whenever you feel like it (and you never have to worry about Leeroy). And after a few years in WoW & FFXI, and yes ago in EQ & AC...I hope grouping is never forced, but the delightful occasional option or a way to raid
lol. Funniest thing, but true.
Bingo... I'd rather leave the uncertainty and unpredictability to the encounters. I'd much rather the people I'm grouped with be reasonably consistent and reliable in reacting to those situations
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Soloing Verses Grouping
I am, what most of you would call a solo player and I would agree. Well to some point atleast.
I have soloed to lvl cap in WoW with one toon, while others I soloed 90% and grouped the other 10%.
I ran a guild and was a member of another.
I've grouped with with friends and family. I've even grouped with strangers to help them out.
I've enjoyed many hours playing while others I was bored silly.
But in the end it was my choice. And I have a right to choose. If my rights were taken away from me then the game would no longer be any fun at all.
good luck on the hunt
Just like you'd want encounters that are unpredictable, but enough consistency so you can establish a pattern.
It's two sides to the same coin. Both elements are ingredients to the same recipe.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
It was a spoof.
To follow the OP's original sandbox = soloing analogy, then forced grouping to a soloer is like playing in that sandbox (counting sand, according to the OP) when someone runs up and craps in it. That's PUGging in a nutshell.
Current MMOs: Rift, GW2, Defiance
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