No, actualy Ford, General Mills, Dell, Sony, GE and Nike DO EXACTLY these sort of things. They actualy initiate these sort of programs on thier own....because they understand the value of them. Alot of them actualy hire consulting companies (at a premium fee) to tell them how to do these things better.
Well MMO's are a little unique compared to Ford, Dell, GE and other software companies in that when Ford tells you be patient, we have a fix and its covered under warranty, well you have a warranty. When Bioware says yes we know every single PS3 player is crashing on Dragon Age and the store is broken, please be patient, a fix is coming they are not collecting more money from you as you wait for a fix. MMOs are. If they want to release broken, skeleton games and tell everyone to wait around patiently until they patch things up, fine... but stop charging while you do that. Otherwise, no, customers don't have to be patient... they're fixing what should have been fixed on our dime.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
This thread has definetly shown me one thing, and in great detail at that, people who live in a crazy fantasy world in their mind will always live there.
They will always be convinced that every company wants their feedback and is dying for it.
They will always think that they understand the business better then everyone else.
They will always think they're entitled to way more then they actually are.
They will always be ignored by the devs, because they have no clue how human beings, and the world, actually work.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
This thread has definetly shown me one thing, and in great detail at that, people who live in a crazy fantasy world in their mind will always live there.
They will always be convinced that every company wants their feedback and is dying for it.
They will always think that they understand the business better then everyone else.
They will always think they're entitled to way more then they actually are.
They will always be ignored by the devs, because they have no clue how human beings, and the world, actually work.
Then the real question is - which is the view of reality, and which is the fantasy illusion?
No matter how it got to this point, the trust between buyer and seller, player and developer, is on a downward trend.
Half-finished game releases, rabid game-destructive playerbases. There's plenty of reason for either side to hold the other in contempt. It's hard to find answers until people understand the question being asked.
so devs dont like players... big deal. just hire some mediator, that does his work and extracts the crap from the goodstuff and everyone is happy again!
Successfull companies DO want thier customers feedback. If a company has a large number of customers, then a single individual customers feedback may not carry significant value but collectively that feedback is critical.
Understanding what your customers value in a product, what works for them about your products/services and what doesn't IS a competitive advantage. You better hope that you understand those things better then your competitors do or you wont have a business.
The only way to really gain that information is through communication with your customers. Beyond that, letting your customers know that you value thier input has some intrinsic value of it's own...beyond providing better products/services. It helps build brand loyalty.
None of this is rocket science nor is it "fantasy". It's Business 101. Anyone that has run a successful business for any length of time understands this intrinsicly.
It's why companies spend so many resources on communications.
Note, that I don't think that game developers are entirely blind to this either. However, as an industry, they haven't done a particulary great job of executing on it.... and there have been some rather stellarly poor examples of it..... and some if it quite recent.
Cryptic, for example, has done a pretty amazing job of shooting itself in it's own foot customer relations wise in recent months.
It cannot be "solved" by making townhall meetings with devs and the like, as it misses the point entirely.
Can you explain more how you mean that? Do you think "townhall meetings" are a wast of time, or do you think that it is taken alone not enough.
If you mean it the first way, could you please explain why, I didn't get it from your post.
Very well. Online communities are no longer quite amateurish hobby endeavours anymore. Just look back a bit how developers discussed a few years ago. How communication looked before Paul Barnett. Game development was a bit amateurish but also visonary as we see now (social, the behind the scene look, involvement of their consumers …). The line between dev and player was quite blurry also. Just look at how the concept of GM has changed.
Now the internetz at large has that. Not only that, all the conservative companies are there as well. This sets new standards, now for everyone. Games do no longer play with special rules. MMOs went true mainstream in recent memory. This all caused a different climate. It is big serious business now. There are not eight games but thousands. You can no longer chit-chat about ideas prematurely. You can't just discuss some game systems which may or may not make into the game anymore (and you can't change the fact that it remains unpredicatable to a good degree).
Bottom line: sure, you can have townhall meetings. And they may pioneer again some trends, but they will be more like Steve Jobs presenting something than cozy and honest dev to player communication. They will produce authenticity. ONLY if "being honest" also works with big serious business will you ever see honest. Not because developers don't want to be, but because they are no longer can't.
It is just as easy to express your concerns or complaints with proper etiquette and start an active positive discussion. Why players feel the need to come up with as many version of "You Suck" or "I hope you die" is baffling.
I truly think that is the root of all of the issues now. Why would you want to read that crap as a developer? You don't nearly as much positive feedback because those who enjoy the game are playing it and have no need to go to a forum. So all you would get to read all day is hatred posts that are made to be as angry and evil as they can, since in their warped mines that is how you get a point across. But the opposite is true, you post like that and your point is lost forever. No one will waste time reading it and responding since you didn't take any time to post properly.
The die hard fans of MMOs need to relax a bit and remember to tell themselves it's just a game. Seriously it is just a game. There is never a need to nerd rage out and make 10 posts in a world with as many expletives as you can conjure up. Simple post "I am not happy with change to X, why was it made and can we get it changed back.", then maybe a discussion can be started where a dev will explain why the change had to be made. You never know, that positive discussion might lead to the dev realizing it should be changed back too, or to you realizing it did need to be changed and it makes sense.
So yes, it is an unpopular position on a gaming forum full of players. But I truly believe the hardcore fanatic gamers are the cause of all the communication issues and hatred flowing around. If they learn to relax and post like an adult then I'm sure more communication will result.
This. A thousand times, this. I think it may be the first time SnarlingWolf and I have ever agreed on anything, but he is spot on. If you curse and...er...snarl, your point is generally lost in the hostility, but if you are reasonable and adult, you just may start a discussion that could end up getting some compromise - or, at the very least, getting you an explanation of the changes you are upset about.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
It is just as easy to express your concerns or complaints with proper etiquette and start an active positive discussion. Why players feel the need to come up with as many version of "You Suck" or "I hope you die" is baffling.
I truly think that is the root of all of the issues now. Why would you want to read that crap as a developer? You don't nearly as much positive feedback because those who enjoy the game are playing it and have no need to go to a forum. So all you would get to read all day is hatred posts that are made to be as angry and evil as they can, since in their warped mines that is how you get a point across. But the opposite is true, you post like that and your point is lost forever. No one will waste time reading it and responding since you didn't take any time to post properly.
The die hard fans of MMOs need to relax a bit and remember to tell themselves it's just a game. Seriously it is just a game. There is never a need to nerd rage out and make 10 posts in a world with as many expletives as you can conjure up. Simple post "I am not happy with change to X, why was it made and can we get it changed back.", then maybe a discussion can be started where a dev will explain why the change had to be made. You never know, that positive discussion might lead to the dev realizing it should be changed back too, or to you realizing it did need to be changed and it makes sense.
So yes, it is an unpopular position on a gaming forum full of players. But I truly believe the hardcore fanatic gamers are the cause of all the communication issues and hatred flowing around. If they learn to relax and post like an adult then I'm sure more communication will result.
This. A thousand times, this. I think it may be the first time SnarlingWolf and I have ever agreed on anything, but he is spot on. If you curse and...er...snarl, your point is generally lost in the hostility, but if you are reasonable and adult, you just may start a discussion that could end up getting some compromise - or, at the very least, getting you an explanation of the changes you are upset about.
This approach was tried I know (I was there) with the NGE and it got no where. That event and the publicity it got is a large part, I think, of why the shift had been made to primarily going straight to the hostility route as well. Do a poll. As gamers who are active in this hobby if they think any developer really listens to their suggestions or do they (gamers) think that developers use those suggestions in discussions about games.
I'm willing to bet the results will be 80+% that No they don't think so. And this is not to say that "nah nah" players know everything, like some people here will try to construe it. Players do know what they like (again, contrary to some of the mind readers around here) and while I'm not saying 100% have great suggestions their are some great ones out there.
THere are ways developers can do polls once players log in to get feedback. They can have community managers posts threads to see topics of concern, then cull that list and use those in in-game surveys. They can include feedback boxes also allowing 150 to 500 word replies as well. Thereare easy things developers can do on a monthly basis that they aren't doing to grow the sense of community and that player input is truly valued.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Developers don't need polls to know that the features advertised should be in the game. They don't need polls to know that a month of unstable servers is not acceptable. They don't need polls to know that when people are making a mass exodus from your game, that maybe instead of telling players not to let the door hit them on the way out, that perhaps they should actually offer customer service. This is not an overnight development. This anger, this resentment, this so called entitlement is after years of lies, out right lying, selling games without features listed on the box, lack of response from customer service, slow responses to hacks, and just a general I don't care attitude from developers.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
It is just as easy to express your concerns or complaints with proper etiquette and start an active positive discussion. Why players feel the need to come up with as many version of "You Suck" or "I hope you die" is baffling.
I truly think that is the root of all of the issues now. Why would you want to read that crap as a developer? You don't nearly as much positive feedback because those who enjoy the game are playing it and have no need to go to a forum. So all you would get to read all day is hatred posts that are made to be as angry and evil as they can, since in their warped mines that is how you get a point across. But the opposite is true, you post like that and your point is lost forever. No one will waste time reading it and responding since you didn't take any time to post properly.
The die hard fans of MMOs need to relax a bit and remember to tell themselves it's just a game. Seriously it is just a game. There is never a need to nerd rage out and make 10 posts in a world with as many expletives as you can conjure up. Simple post "I am not happy with change to X, why was it made and can we get it changed back.", then maybe a discussion can be started where a dev will explain why the change had to be made. You never know, that positive discussion might lead to the dev realizing it should be changed back too, or to you realizing it did need to be changed and it makes sense.
So yes, it is an unpopular position on a gaming forum full of players. But I truly believe the hardcore fanatic gamers are the cause of all the communication issues and hatred flowing around. If they learn to relax and post like an adult then I'm sure more communication will result.
This. A thousand times, this. I think it may be the first time SnarlingWolf and I have ever agreed on anything, but he is spot on. If you curse and...er...snarl, your point is generally lost in the hostility, but if you are reasonable and adult, you just may start a discussion that could end up getting some compromise - or, at the very least, getting you an explanation of the changes you are upset about.
This approach was tried I know (I was there) with the NGE and it got no where. That event and the publicity it got is a large part, I think, of why the shift had been made to primarily going straight to the hostility route as well. Do a poll. As gamers who are active in this hobby if they think any developer really listens to their suggestions or do they (gamers) think that developers use those suggestions in discussions about games.
I'm willing to bet the results will be 80+% that No they don't think so. And this is not to say that "nah nah" players know everything, like some people here will try to construe it. Players do know what they like (again, contrary to some of the mind readers around here) and while I'm not saying 100% have great suggestions their are some great ones out there.
THere are ways developers can do polls once players log in to get feedback. They can have community managers posts threads to see topics of concern, then cull that list and use those in in-game surveys. They can include feedback boxes also allowing 150 to 500 word replies as well. Thereare easy things developers can do on a monthly basis that they aren't doing to grow the sense of community and that player input is truly valued.
And as we now know, Khalathwyr, the NGE was, in fact, a decision that cannot be blamed on the developers. It was the Sony executives, Julio Torres (who worked for LucasArts and was their man on SWG - he did not work for Sony, a point he reiterated in my presence when I spoke with him for over an hour back in '05 or '06 about the NGE), and the developers carrying out those instructions and perhaps giving suggestions of their own - so again, it really is quite unfair to blame the developers for the NGE. They are being paid to do a job and as part of their job, they are required to suggest the best and most efficient ways to implement the orders their bosses have given them, whether they agree with those orders or not. If you work at McDonald's and your boss tells you he wants a proposal on his desk by next Friday suggesting ways to drastically change the look and feel of the Big Mac, no matter what the customers have to say about it, if you wish to keep your job in the short term, you will put that proposal on his desk. Let the McDonald's corporation worry about the damage to the company and you do your job.
Do players trust developers? Possibly not. What I can say unequivocally is that, any time I have approached a developer with the basic respect due a human being and the same common courtesy and respect I give the barista at Starbucks when s/he makes a mistake on my coffee order, I am treated with a great deal of respect and common courtesy in return. These men and women are not pixels on a screen, nor are they virtual punching bags: they are men and women doing a job that they are ordered to do by their bosses, the same as the rest of us. They are not perfect; no one is. I strongly believe that is is irrational and highly unrealistic to expect them to be perfect and yet, it seems to me that frequently, that is exactly what people seem to expect of them.
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
It is just as easy to express your concerns or complaints with proper etiquette and start an active positive discussion. Why players feel the need to come up with as many version of "You Suck" or "I hope you die" is baffling.
I truly think that is the root of all of the issues now. Why would you want to read that crap as a developer? You don't nearly as much positive feedback because those who enjoy the game are playing it and have no need to go to a forum. So all you would get to read all day is hatred posts that are made to be as angry and evil as they can, since in their warped mines that is how you get a point across. But the opposite is true, you post like that and your point is lost forever. No one will waste time reading it and responding since you didn't take any time to post properly.
The die hard fans of MMOs need to relax a bit and remember to tell themselves it's just a game. Seriously it is just a game. There is never a need to nerd rage out and make 10 posts in a world with as many expletives as you can conjure up. Simple post "I am not happy with change to X, why was it made and can we get it changed back.", then maybe a discussion can be started where a dev will explain why the change had to be made. You never know, that positive discussion might lead to the dev realizing it should be changed back too, or to you realizing it did need to be changed and it makes sense.
So yes, it is an unpopular position on a gaming forum full of players. But I truly believe the hardcore fanatic gamers are the cause of all the communication issues and hatred flowing around. If they learn to relax and post like an adult then I'm sure more communication will result.
This. A thousand times, this. I think it may be the first time SnarlingWolf and I have ever agreed on anything, but he is spot on. If you curse and...er...snarl, your point is generally lost in the hostility, but if you are reasonable and adult, you just may start a discussion that could end up getting some compromise - or, at the very least, getting you an explanation of the changes you are upset about.
This approach was tried I know (I was there) with the NGE and it got no where. That event and the publicity it got is a large part, I think, of why the shift had been made to primarily going straight to the hostility route as well. Do a poll. As gamers who are active in this hobby if they think any developer really listens to their suggestions or do they (gamers) think that developers use those suggestions in discussions about games.
I'm willing to bet the results will be 80+% that No they don't think so. And this is not to say that "nah nah" players know everything, like some people here will try to construe it. Players do know what they like (again, contrary to some of the mind readers around here) and while I'm not saying 100% have great suggestions their are some great ones out there.
THere are ways developers can do polls once players log in to get feedback. They can have community managers posts threads to see topics of concern, then cull that list and use those in in-game surveys. They can include feedback boxes also allowing 150 to 500 word replies as well. Thereare easy things developers can do on a monthly basis that they aren't doing to grow the sense of community and that player input is truly valued.
And as we now know, Khalathwyr, the NGE was, in fact, a decision that cannot be blamed on the developers. It was the Sony executives, Julio Torres (who worked for LucasArts and was their man on SWG - he did not work for Sony, a point he reiterated in my presence when I spoke with him for over an hour back in '05 or '06 about the NGE), and the developers carrying out those instructions and perhaps giving suggestions of their own - so again, it really is quite unfair to blame the developers for the NGE. They are being paid to do a job and as part of their job, they are required to suggest the best and most efficient ways to implement the orders their bosses have given them, whether they agree with those orders or not. If you work at McDonald's and your boss tells you he wants a proposal on his desk by next Friday suggesting ways to drastically change the look and feel of the Big Mac, no matter what the customers have to say about it, if you wish to keep your job in the short term, you will put that proposal on his desk. Let the McDonald's corporation worry about the damage to the company and you do your job.
Do players trust developers? Possibly not. What I can say unequivocally is that, any time I have approached a developer with the basic respect due a human being and the same common courtesy and respect I give the barista at Starbucks when s/he makes a mistake on my coffee order, I am treated with a great deal of respect and common courtesy in return. These men and women are not pixels on a screen, nor are they virtual punching bags: they are men and women doing a job that they are ordered to do by their bosses, the same as the rest of us. They are not perfect; no one is. I strongly believe that is is irrational and highly unrealistic to expect them to be perfect and yet, it seems to me that frequently, that is exactly what people seem to expect of them.
Maybe, but you can't unilaterally state that all of them are "innocent", if that word applies. Just like I know that not all of them are "guilty". And yes, having worked with Hilton HHonors for a period of time I'm well aware that the customer is not always right (looking at you Diamond members) as I've had to deal with people I'd much rather have pushed off a cliff for the things they've said.
The major point, and again I'm not an advocate of the hatred spewed by some customers, is that these devs that we speak of that are being "offended" are often the "victim" because they are the only access to the company that the customers have. Those bosses you mention, they don't come to the forum nor do they give avenue for customers to voice their opinions. It'd be great if those bosses would come down out of their Berchtesgaden retreats and face the firing line but they aren't going to. The days of the heads of companies being proud of their product and willing to engage their customers face to face have long past.
It is also of note that experience guides perspective. For whatever reason you have had one on one face to face access to these people. The majority of us out here haven't. I've had access to people and place in my military career that unless you were there too you don't have the same insight and have only been able to form your opinions about them from what you've read in the media.
I agree that people shouldn't approach others in an ignorant manner. That said, the other side (developers) in this aren't 100% free of guilt with respect to the respect they show their customers. Respect is earned and most MMO companies haven't done very much to maintain a high level of respect.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Part of the problem involves the misguided belief that a lot of players have where they believe that because they are paying a subscription fee, it entitles them to be a part of the the the development process
In a small way, it does.
Feel free to pay strangers for shoddy work, and say nothing about it, if you prefer.
Exactly. The genre has not become us vs. them, it's become us vs. us & them. So many undereducated and self serving players are blindly supporting junky MMO developers that it is making those kinds of companies and their business practices the norm. I'm ashamed at what the majority of players have allowed developers to get away with. Say bye-bye to the good times they are gone. Welcome the insta-gratification age where endgame and shiny boots with xp potion wings can be bought in a matter of minutes. MMO games these days are dwindling down to become little more than the next copy-protection scheme of single player games with multiplayer functions. More like graphical chat programs with easy access to virtual bling bling. That serves the developers just fine, easy money, rehashed game engines, reused textures, and substandard game lore.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
I agree that people shouldn't approach others in an ignorant manner. That said, the other side (developers) in this aren't 100% free of guilt with respect to the respect they show their customers. Respect is earned and most MMO companies haven't done very much to maintain a high level of respect.
And on that , I agree with you fully. I also agree that the executives are not going to face the customers because they know exactly how most of us will react: with great hostility. I refuse to believe that the majority of those of us who are reasonably serious about our gaming truly believe that the developers are responsible for much of the lunacy we currently see, but, as you say, they are the ones with the intestinal fortitude to face us - whether because they choose to or because it is their job to do so.
And yes, it really is a two way street. There are some developers and community folks who have and show little to less than zero respect for the customer and so the customer reflects that right back to them. In those cases, well, those personnel really don't have a lot of room to ask me to give them what they are not willing to even pretend to give to me. I also agree with you there.
But for a dev or community person who has at least made an attempt to show a modicum of respect and courtesy, I will always try to give them the benefit of the doubt where ever possible, just as I would prefer that they would do with me.
(As to the military, been there and done that myself in terms of what I did and who I worked with and no, I never, ever rely on the media there, either - especially since I also worked in the news media for a few years after I got out of the military and I know better than most what goes on in the television newsroom. You really, REALLY cannot believe everything you read or hear in the media, folks. Trust me, I used to write news copy.)
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
The only real solution to curbing the kind of verbal abuse that goes on in an MMO company's forums is to eliminate the anonymity factor. If people realized the amount of hate they spew on some computer had real world repercussions things would be a lot more civilized, and I hope orderly. Sadly, this would never happen. People like the ability to anonymously berate and belittle others.
The worst thing development teams did was take advice from gamers on their open forums. The developers are right in a way, the majority of their player base has no idea what they want, and worse, what should be done to fix balance issues. When the QQ kidies realized that by QQ'n about X class they could whip the devs into changing it, what do you think they did??
My advice to the devs is watch your game for 60-90 days without making any changes other then performace updates. In that time hand pick players that show a deep understanding of the game mechanic and give them access to a development board. If you get a good pool of players like this they would become invaluable to you because through them you would get advice based off experience, not QQ.
My advice to the devs is watch your game for 60-90 days without making any changes other then performace updates. In that time hand pick players that show a deep understanding of the game mechanic and give them access to a development board. If you get a good pool of players like this they would become invaluable to you because through them you would get advice based off experience, not QQ.
A hand-picked panel of yes men won't improve the game in any way. It will likely make it worse.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
My advice to the devs is watch your game for 60-90 days without making any changes other then performace updates. In that time hand pick players that show a deep understanding of the game mechanic and give them access to a development board. If you get a good pool of players like this they would become invaluable to you because through them you would get advice based off experience, not QQ.
A hand-picked panel of yes men won't improve the game in any way. It will likely make it worse.
From what I said how can you come to the conclussion they are "Yes" men? They would be people that understand how classes work, or would it be better with: I was killed by X class so its OP, nerf!!!! That is your average player giving advice.
The mass majority of the MMO crowd is completely ignorant of the game mechanics and scream for changes based strickly on emotion. In my opinion the devs need to stop listening to that.
players do know what they want, the problem is, that there are as many opionions as there are people.... and you can never make it right for all.
QFT
QFT, I'm sure everyone has their own ideal MMO, but it's only perfect for that one person. It's a shame when someone actually focuses on making a game that they themselves would enjoy playing only to fail because of a lack of support while the people with support focus on how much of the crowd they can win over.
Oh, the poor devs. They are just fine with going to conventions and trade shows and being treated like rock stars, though.
Just to set the record straight, I can't remember the last time I saw any developer treated like a rock start at a convention or trade show. Having been to my fair share of thes events, they're not as glamorous as you seem to think they are. They're actually a lot fo hard work.
Yeah, I can attest to this one as well. I've worked a lot of conventions, and no matter how large or small, they are physically and emotionally draining. REALLY draining.. getting up way too early, all the logistics, setting up, then the actual day's work, followed by all the closing down..
Funnily enough though, being a rockstar must be just as hard work, heh! So yeah, I don't mind treating a dev/suit at a convention like a rockstar; they're probably working their asses off.
The dev studios should stop to promise things that are not in game, then I think the backlash in the forums will not be as big and rude as it sometimes is.
I was realy shocked by how bad the quality of STO was. I am a Startrek fan and have read for month every article and interview and read the forums. I imagined myself playing the game for years, doing exploration, finding new races etc. Even days or weeks before release the devs talked about things that in my opinion the game did not deliver (You can call it exploration, but its a joke. And you can call it "Episodic content" but its still just boring quests where you almost always do the same thing). I played till Admiral 5 then the free 30days where over and I will never play this game again. I did not bother to rage at the forums but I realy don't wonder why some people do.
“The problem is these games are better off being crappy and rushed and not work because as long as you sell the box it doesn't matter how many months they sub to your game unless it is about 4 or more they already made most of the money they are going to make off of you.”
This is at the heart of so many problems you get in the first year after launch. MMO’s are not being designed to ensure players want to keep playing them for years to come. The old ethos of a solid game which will want to make you stick with it has been replaced with a making a quick buck attitude.
The dev studios should stop to promise things that are not in game, then I think the backlash in the forums will not be as big and rude as it sometimes is.
I was realy shocked by how bad the quality of STO was. I am a Startrek fan and have read for month every article and interview and read the forums. I imagined myself playing the game for years, doing exploration, finding new races etc. Even days or weeks before release the devs talked about things that in my opinion the game did not deliver (You can call it exploration, but its a joke. And you can call it "Episodic content" but its still just boring quests where you almost always do the same thing). I played till Admiral 5 then the free 30days where over and I will never play this game again. I did not bother to rage at the forums but I realy don't wonder why some people do.
There were some of us here making it clear that this would not be a good game.
I don't know how you missed that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I personally believe the solution lies with better forum management and moderators. First create 3 seperate forums. One for positive comments, one for negative comments, and one for what you(as the gamer) feel would make the game better. This way the Devs can see the people who appreciate them with out having the idiots who give us normal gamers bad names. The negative comments forum, will be for things the players feel that the devs may be doing that needs fixing. Then finally the what you feel would make the game better forum is for requests for specific kind of contents and mechanics etc.
Now I know all of you will nay say me saying that this idea would never work, but I am not wrong, and here is how it would work. The Moderators and management for the forums would heavily monitor, the aformentioned forums and use rules and filters to place comments in their proper forums, (in the event that there are any posters who couldnt read the description of what the forum was for), and then any comments with derrogotory, harsh language, or obvious nerdrage digs at the devs will be out right deleted. This may infuriate the idiots that give good gamers a bad name, or it may teach them manners, either way...I dont care, normal gamers dont care, and the devs wont care. With the proper placement of filters and rule sets for forums, and having them ENFORCED, it will make the lines of communication between dev and player more palatable on both sides and help them go back to the golden days of MMORPG's standing out in the gaming industry.
Now again I know you will all either agree or disagree with me and it is your perogative. However I again reitterate that my plan is 99% infallible and the nerdragers who would make harsh unwelcome comments, are the other 1% who would simply be....deleted.
Oh, the poor devs. They are just fine with going to conventions and trade shows and being treated like rock stars, though.
I dunno, I prefer the rock star wannabe devs to the angry, insult the playerbase devs.
The problem Zeowrym is they are one and the same (as I'm almost willing to bet MMO_Doubter is pointing out). That is far too often where they get the sense of entitlement to argue with the paying customer, walking through these conventions and hearing people say "I came all the way from Hoboken to see you guys" seems to give these devs a god complex the likes of which the rest of the video game industry has not seen.
And I'm sorry Stradden I find this entire article to be useless because the truth remains as the customer I am always right period point blank, it's my money they count on to keep them going and not the other way around.
I think the nail was hit on the head when the mention of the conventions and trade shows because that is the only difference I can see between the evolving offline/console games and the erosion of the mmo genre, honestly when is the last time you heard the head of Rockstar,EA,Bethesda, etc. speak about their customers the way mmo devs do every other release? Why do games like Grand Theft Auto,Read Ded Redemption, etc do such a good job giving the players what they want? While every other mmo winds up implimenting strange features (only rarely mentioned in forums) that just piss off the entire playerbase?
I grow so tired of the whole "players don't know what they want" argument that I refuse to even listen to it anymore. I'm not the most senior community member by far but the first time I ever heard that excuse bandied about was by SOE during the entire SWG debacle, yes anyone who was there can attest we heard that changes made there were asked for by US as much as and often more than we ever heard them just admit to screwing up the game.
I really feel like I owe MMO_Dobter an apology, I first started to notice his often negative posts during the development of STO and took almost every opportunity I could find to debate him but the problem was that in truth I'm so selective about the mmo's I even consider trying I was missing alot of the big picture and I want to thank Cryptic for showing me what he has so often said about the industry as a whole the disconnect between mmo devs and their playerbase is unaccpetable and even more so is the blame that devs throw on the PB in hopes of securing more financing to continue to make their living.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
This thread has reminded me of what Hideo Kojima warned about when he was developing Metal Gear solid for the PS3. I can't find the article, but I remember him warning about the overly high expectation of what both Sony and gamers had of the next gen games. Although he agreed that there will be graphical improvements he warned against people expecting a revolution and stated that the cost in developing games have raised significantly as well as development time. At the time I read this as a rebuke against Sony’s marketing machine hyping the PS3 to death, well beyond what it could realistically deliver, as well as lowering the expectation of the first MGS game on the PS3.
I think both developers have a responsibility to be honest about what the game will deliver, rather than the over the top hype we have. I also think that players have a responsibility to be realistic about what games can currently deliver in terms of graphics, and gameplay. Particularly MMO’s which are still in their infancy. In my view most of the frustration stems from the fact that there is a large gulf between what developers promise, what many players want and what is realistically deliverable with today’s software technology, and the resources available to the software house.
Comments
Well MMO's are a little unique compared to Ford, Dell, GE and other software companies in that when Ford tells you be patient, we have a fix and its covered under warranty, well you have a warranty. When Bioware says yes we know every single PS3 player is crashing on Dragon Age and the store is broken, please be patient, a fix is coming they are not collecting more money from you as you wait for a fix. MMOs are. If they want to release broken, skeleton games and tell everyone to wait around patiently until they patch things up, fine... but stop charging while you do that. Otherwise, no, customers don't have to be patient... they're fixing what should have been fixed on our dime.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Nice viewpoints.
+1
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Then the real question is - which is the view of reality, and which is the fantasy illusion?
No matter how it got to this point, the trust between buyer and seller, player and developer, is on a downward trend.
Half-finished game releases, rabid game-destructive playerbases. There's plenty of reason for either side to hold the other in contempt. It's hard to find answers until people understand the question being asked.
Avatars are people too
so devs dont like players...
big deal.
just hire some mediator, that does his work and extracts the crap from the goodstuff and everyone is happy again!
Successfull companies DO want thier customers feedback. If a company has a large number of customers, then a single individual customers feedback may not carry significant value but collectively that feedback is critical.
Understanding what your customers value in a product, what works for them about your products/services and what doesn't IS a competitive advantage. You better hope that you understand those things better then your competitors do or you wont have a business.
The only way to really gain that information is through communication with your customers. Beyond that, letting your customers know that you value thier input has some intrinsic value of it's own...beyond providing better products/services. It helps build brand loyalty.
None of this is rocket science nor is it "fantasy". It's Business 101. Anyone that has run a successful business for any length of time understands this intrinsicly.
It's why companies spend so many resources on communications.
Note, that I don't think that game developers are entirely blind to this either. However, as an industry, they haven't done a particulary great job of executing on it.... and there have been some rather stellarly poor examples of it..... and some if it quite recent.
Cryptic, for example, has done a pretty amazing job of shooting itself in it's own foot customer relations wise in recent months.
Very well. Online communities are no longer quite amateurish hobby endeavours anymore. Just look back a bit how developers discussed a few years ago. How communication looked before Paul Barnett. Game development was a bit amateurish but also visonary as we see now (social, the behind the scene look, involvement of their consumers …). The line between dev and player was quite blurry also. Just look at how the concept of GM has changed.
Now the internetz at large has that. Not only that, all the conservative companies are there as well. This sets new standards, now for everyone. Games do no longer play with special rules. MMOs went true mainstream in recent memory. This all caused a different climate. It is big serious business now. There are not eight games but thousands. You can no longer chit-chat about ideas prematurely. You can't just discuss some game systems which may or may not make into the game anymore (and you can't change the fact that it remains unpredicatable to a good degree).
Bottom line: sure, you can have townhall meetings. And they may pioneer again some trends, but they will be more like Steve Jobs presenting something than cozy and honest dev to player communication. They will produce authenticity. ONLY if "being honest" also works with big serious business will you ever see honest. Not because developers don't want to be, but because they are no longer can't.
This. A thousand times, this. I think it may be the first time SnarlingWolf and I have ever agreed on anything, but he is spot on. If you curse and...er...snarl, your point is generally lost in the hostility, but if you are reasonable and adult, you just may start a discussion that could end up getting some compromise - or, at the very least, getting you an explanation of the changes you are upset about.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
This approach was tried I know (I was there) with the NGE and it got no where. That event and the publicity it got is a large part, I think, of why the shift had been made to primarily going straight to the hostility route as well. Do a poll. As gamers who are active in this hobby if they think any developer really listens to their suggestions or do they (gamers) think that developers use those suggestions in discussions about games.
I'm willing to bet the results will be 80+% that No they don't think so. And this is not to say that "nah nah" players know everything, like some people here will try to construe it. Players do know what they like (again, contrary to some of the mind readers around here) and while I'm not saying 100% have great suggestions their are some great ones out there.
THere are ways developers can do polls once players log in to get feedback. They can have community managers posts threads to see topics of concern, then cull that list and use those in in-game surveys. They can include feedback boxes also allowing 150 to 500 word replies as well. There are easy things developers can do on a monthly basis that they aren't doing to grow the sense of community and that player input is truly valued.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Developers don't need polls to know that the features advertised should be in the game. They don't need polls to know that a month of unstable servers is not acceptable. They don't need polls to know that when people are making a mass exodus from your game, that maybe instead of telling players not to let the door hit them on the way out, that perhaps they should actually offer customer service. This is not an overnight development. This anger, this resentment, this so called entitlement is after years of lies, out right lying, selling games without features listed on the box, lack of response from customer service, slow responses to hacks, and just a general I don't care attitude from developers.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
And as we now know, Khalathwyr, the NGE was, in fact, a decision that cannot be blamed on the developers. It was the Sony executives, Julio Torres (who worked for LucasArts and was their man on SWG - he did not work for Sony, a point he reiterated in my presence when I spoke with him for over an hour back in '05 or '06 about the NGE), and the developers carrying out those instructions and perhaps giving suggestions of their own - so again, it really is quite unfair to blame the developers for the NGE. They are being paid to do a job and as part of their job, they are required to suggest the best and most efficient ways to implement the orders their bosses have given them, whether they agree with those orders or not. If you work at McDonald's and your boss tells you he wants a proposal on his desk by next Friday suggesting ways to drastically change the look and feel of the Big Mac, no matter what the customers have to say about it, if you wish to keep your job in the short term, you will put that proposal on his desk. Let the McDonald's corporation worry about the damage to the company and you do your job.
Do players trust developers? Possibly not. What I can say unequivocally is that, any time I have approached a developer with the basic respect due a human being and the same common courtesy and respect I give the barista at Starbucks when s/he makes a mistake on my coffee order, I am treated with a great deal of respect and common courtesy in return. These men and women are not pixels on a screen, nor are they virtual punching bags: they are men and women doing a job that they are ordered to do by their bosses, the same as the rest of us. They are not perfect; no one is. I strongly believe that is is irrational and highly unrealistic to expect them to be perfect and yet, it seems to me that frequently, that is exactly what people seem to expect of them.
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
Maybe, but you can't unilaterally state that all of them are "innocent", if that word applies. Just like I know that not all of them are "guilty". And yes, having worked with Hilton HHonors for a period of time I'm well aware that the customer is not always right (looking at you Diamond members) as I've had to deal with people I'd much rather have pushed off a cliff for the things they've said.
The major point, and again I'm not an advocate of the hatred spewed by some customers, is that these devs that we speak of that are being "offended" are often the "victim" because they are the only access to the company that the customers have. Those bosses you mention, they don't come to the forum nor do they give avenue for customers to voice their opinions. It'd be great if those bosses would come down out of their Berchtesgaden retreats and face the firing line but they aren't going to. The days of the heads of companies being proud of their product and willing to engage their customers face to face have long past.
It is also of note that experience guides perspective. For whatever reason you have had one on one face to face access to these people. The majority of us out here haven't. I've had access to people and place in my military career that unless you were there too you don't have the same insight and have only been able to form your opinions about them from what you've read in the media.
I agree that people shouldn't approach others in an ignorant manner. That said, the other side (developers) in this aren't 100% free of guilt with respect to the respect they show their customers. Respect is earned and most MMO companies haven't done very much to maintain a high level of respect.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Exactly. The genre has not become us vs. them, it's become us vs. us & them. So many undereducated and self serving players are blindly supporting junky MMO developers that it is making those kinds of companies and their business practices the norm. I'm ashamed at what the majority of players have allowed developers to get away with. Say bye-bye to the good times they are gone. Welcome the insta-gratification age where endgame and shiny boots with xp potion wings can be bought in a matter of minutes. MMO games these days are dwindling down to become little more than the next copy-protection scheme of single player games with multiplayer functions. More like graphical chat programs with easy access to virtual bling bling. That serves the developers just fine, easy money, rehashed game engines, reused textures, and substandard game lore.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
And on that , I agree with you fully. I also agree that the executives are not going to face the customers because they know exactly how most of us will react: with great hostility. I refuse to believe that the majority of those of us who are reasonably serious about our gaming truly believe that the developers are responsible for much of the lunacy we currently see, but, as you say, they are the ones with the intestinal fortitude to face us - whether because they choose to or because it is their job to do so.
And yes, it really is a two way street. There are some developers and community folks who have and show little to less than zero respect for the customer and so the customer reflects that right back to them. In those cases, well, those personnel really don't have a lot of room to ask me to give them what they are not willing to even pretend to give to me. I also agree with you there.
But for a dev or community person who has at least made an attempt to show a modicum of respect and courtesy, I will always try to give them the benefit of the doubt where ever possible, just as I would prefer that they would do with me.
(As to the military, been there and done that myself in terms of what I did and who I worked with and no, I never, ever rely on the media there, either - especially since I also worked in the news media for a few years after I got out of the military and I know better than most what goes on in the television newsroom. You really, REALLY cannot believe everything you read or hear in the media, folks. Trust me, I used to write news copy.)
Firebrand Art
"You are obviously confusing a mature rating with actual maturity." -Asherman
Maybe MMO is not your genre, go play Modern Warfare...or something you can be all twitchy...and rank up all night. This is seriously getting tired. -Ranyr
The only real solution to curbing the kind of verbal abuse that goes on in an MMO company's forums is to eliminate the anonymity factor. If people realized the amount of hate they spew on some computer had real world repercussions things would be a lot more civilized, and I hope orderly. Sadly, this would never happen. People like the ability to anonymously berate and belittle others.
The worst thing development teams did was take advice from gamers on their open forums. The developers are right in a way, the majority of their player base has no idea what they want, and worse, what should be done to fix balance issues. When the QQ kidies realized that by QQ'n about X class they could whip the devs into changing it, what do you think they did??
My advice to the devs is watch your game for 60-90 days without making any changes other then performace updates. In that time hand pick players that show a deep understanding of the game mechanic and give them access to a development board. If you get a good pool of players like this they would become invaluable to you because through them you would get advice based off experience, not QQ.
A hand-picked panel of yes men won't improve the game in any way. It will likely make it worse.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
From what I said how can you come to the conclussion they are "Yes" men? They would be people that understand how classes work, or would it be better with: I was killed by X class so its OP, nerf!!!! That is your average player giving advice.
The mass majority of the MMO crowd is completely ignorant of the game mechanics and scream for changes based strickly on emotion. In my opinion the devs need to stop listening to that.
QFT, I'm sure everyone has their own ideal MMO, but it's only perfect for that one person. It's a shame when someone actually focuses on making a game that they themselves would enjoy playing only to fail because of a lack of support while the people with support focus on how much of the crowd they can win over.
Make games you want to play.
http://www.youtube.com/user/RavikAztar
Yeah, I can attest to this one as well. I've worked a lot of conventions, and no matter how large or small, they are physically and emotionally draining. REALLY draining.. getting up way too early, all the logistics, setting up, then the actual day's work, followed by all the closing down..
Funnily enough though, being a rockstar must be just as hard work, heh! So yeah, I don't mind treating a dev/suit at a convention like a rockstar; they're probably working their asses off.
The dev studios should stop to promise things that are not in game, then I think the backlash in the forums will not be as big and rude as it sometimes is.
I was realy shocked by how bad the quality of STO was. I am a Startrek fan and have read for month every article and interview and read the forums. I imagined myself playing the game for years, doing exploration, finding new races etc. Even days or weeks before release the devs talked about things that in my opinion the game did not deliver (You can call it exploration, but its a joke. And you can call it "Episodic content" but its still just boring quests where you almost always do the same thing). I played till Admiral 5 then the free 30days where over and I will never play this game again. I did not bother to rage at the forums but I realy don't wonder why some people do.
“The problem is these games are better off being crappy and rushed and not work because as long as you sell the box it doesn't matter how many months they sub to your game unless it is about 4 or more they already made most of the money they are going to make off of you.”
This is at the heart of so many problems you get in the first year after launch. MMO’s are not being designed to ensure players want to keep playing them for years to come. The old ethos of a solid game which will want to make you stick with it has been replaced with a making a quick buck attitude.
There were some of us here making it clear that this would not be a good game.
I don't know how you missed that.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I personally believe the solution lies with better forum management and moderators. First create 3 seperate forums. One for positive comments, one for negative comments, and one for what you(as the gamer) feel would make the game better. This way the Devs can see the people who appreciate them with out having the idiots who give us normal gamers bad names. The negative comments forum, will be for things the players feel that the devs may be doing that needs fixing. Then finally the what you feel would make the game better forum is for requests for specific kind of contents and mechanics etc.
Now I know all of you will nay say me saying that this idea would never work, but I am not wrong, and here is how it would work. The Moderators and management for the forums would heavily monitor, the aformentioned forums and use rules and filters to place comments in their proper forums, (in the event that there are any posters who couldnt read the description of what the forum was for), and then any comments with derrogotory, harsh language, or obvious nerdrage digs at the devs will be out right deleted. This may infuriate the idiots that give good gamers a bad name, or it may teach them manners, either way...I dont care, normal gamers dont care, and the devs wont care. With the proper placement of filters and rule sets for forums, and having them ENFORCED, it will make the lines of communication between dev and player more palatable on both sides and help them go back to the golden days of MMORPG's standing out in the gaming industry.
Now again I know you will all either agree or disagree with me and it is your perogative. However I again reitterate that my plan is 99% infallible and the nerdragers who would make harsh unwelcome comments, are the other 1% who would simply be....deleted.
The problem Zeowrym is they are one and the same (as I'm almost willing to bet MMO_Doubter is pointing out). That is far too often where they get the sense of entitlement to argue with the paying customer, walking through these conventions and hearing people say "I came all the way from Hoboken to see you guys" seems to give these devs a god complex the likes of which the rest of the video game industry has not seen.
And I'm sorry Stradden I find this entire article to be useless because the truth remains as the customer I am always right period point blank, it's my money they count on to keep them going and not the other way around.
I think the nail was hit on the head when the mention of the conventions and trade shows because that is the only difference I can see between the evolving offline/console games and the erosion of the mmo genre, honestly when is the last time you heard the head of Rockstar,EA,Bethesda, etc. speak about their customers the way mmo devs do every other release? Why do games like Grand Theft Auto,Read Ded Redemption, etc do such a good job giving the players what they want? While every other mmo winds up implimenting strange features (only rarely mentioned in forums) that just piss off the entire playerbase?
I grow so tired of the whole "players don't know what they want" argument that I refuse to even listen to it anymore. I'm not the most senior community member by far but the first time I ever heard that excuse bandied about was by SOE during the entire SWG debacle, yes anyone who was there can attest we heard that changes made there were asked for by US as much as and often more than we ever heard them just admit to screwing up the game.
I really feel like I owe MMO_Dobter an apology, I first started to notice his often negative posts during the development of STO and took almost every opportunity I could find to debate him but the problem was that in truth I'm so selective about the mmo's I even consider trying I was missing alot of the big picture and I want to thank Cryptic for showing me what he has so often said about the industry as a whole the disconnect between mmo devs and their playerbase is unaccpetable and even more so is the blame that devs throw on the PB in hopes of securing more financing to continue to make their living.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
This thread has reminded me of what Hideo Kojima warned about when he was developing Metal Gear solid for the PS3. I can't find the article, but I remember him warning about the overly high expectation of what both Sony and gamers had of the next gen games. Although he agreed that there will be graphical improvements he warned against people expecting a revolution and stated that the cost in developing games have raised significantly as well as development time. At the time I read this as a rebuke against Sony’s marketing machine hyping the PS3 to death, well beyond what it could realistically deliver, as well as lowering the expectation of the first MGS game on the PS3.
I think both developers have a responsibility to be honest about what the game will deliver, rather than the over the top hype we have. I also think that players have a responsibility to be realistic about what games can currently deliver in terms of graphics, and gameplay. Particularly MMO’s which are still in their infancy. In my view most of the frustration stems from the fact that there is a large gulf between what developers promise, what many players want and what is realistically deliverable with today’s software technology, and the resources available to the software house.