You troll nicely but you really make no points. You name one company in a sea of companies and a company I have never heard of. Yeah for you. Enjoy their games. Probably will be limited and be of low quality. By all means go off and play in their field of dreams. Ta Ta.
Ah, and there we have it. The troll using his own term to try and label someone else. No, kind sir, YOU are the troll.
Arena.Net? You've never heard of Arena.Net? Commonly referred to as A.net? The makers of Guild Wars and the HIGHLY anticipated Guild Wars 2?
Kindly bow out of the thread before you make yourself look like more of a fool.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
sorry but you are talking about non existant scenarios here. WOW, EQ2, STO, CO etc sell cosmetic stuff. I haven't seen any of these companies selling armor or weapons which give you advantage over other players. If that situation arises i will never support cash shop. We are talking about pure fluff here. You can ignore it and continue to enjoy your game. The only cash shop i ever used is in EQ2 for buying house items. But like i said it has zero effect on gameplay of anyone around me.
Dont be sorry. It's true, maybe "weaker" should be a better word. You porbably mentioned the 4 most shallow games on the market today, and only one that garners a notable audience. The others that are attempting to make up lack of massively multiplayer game-play content with individually purchasbale content are doing so because they are floundering shallow products looking for mean$ to make a quick buck.
Yes, more of those that are embarrased to admit is cheapens the product and massively multiplayer game-play experience will continue to defend it.
Nope its not weaker because 'no advantage' exists here. Unless you want to control other people spending habits thats completely different subject. Morover, selling cosmetic pets, clothes, ships etc in no way equals to content. I thik you are confused about what playable content really means. The only thing thats cheapning MMORPG is cry babies whose game is not effected by cash shops and yet they want to cry just for the sake of it.
I'll bow out of this thread too. Its difficult to see any resemblence of meaningful conversation when it appears as though the damage control storm-troopers from Cryptic and SOE are flooding the thread repeatedly trying to make supportive sence of these cheap and shallow tchotche endeavors.
that is your opinion that is it bad for the game. but many like it. Look at the WoW horse. It is your opinion that it is "bad", but the profit of games going up means more games and more people willing to get into the market. More money to advance equipment and technology. They days of quality games being made in basements are over. People demand more. More costs money. Costs must be balanced by profit. Profit means more companies and investors. More companies and investors means more games. More games means more chances of quality games.
the day of the raid is dead and buried. The glorious day of the casual is here. We killed and burned the corpses of the basement children raiders or no job perents basement living adult. Now you must pay to play as it is with just about anything in life that is fun. Sorry now you can not compete. But as many raiders would say back in the day. "It is the game. Learn to play it."
Read again what you wrote, and what I wrote.
You're clearly confused between what is a GAME, and what is BUSINESS. You rubberband between the two.
Because of the simple observation you've failed to recognize, and a complete sideline rant that ensued, you're already borderline of just a clean blind bias.
A game is a business in our MMO world. No one runs a quality non-profit game. If you want a good quality game that survives it must be back by good quality business.
NO. HELL NO. You're not off your rocker, you're something else entirely.
CCP has proved how the game is far more important than the business model. A.Net has made an equally highly successful game based on a minimal profit model. No, you use terms like 'non-profit' which are buzzwords for how certain businesses operate, but the point of the matter is that profit is not necessary in the manner in which you speak of it. These 2 companies are organized differently (their business models), but both directly invest the profit gained straight into the game itself.
What we're talking about here, with fluff items, is an item treadmill of a different kind. You say it's dead- and that is where you are dillusional. It's alive, and it's very much well. THE DEVS THEMSELVES RECOGNIZED THIS AND FORMED A NEW ITEM TREADMILL THAT REVOLVES AROUND PURCHASING ITEMS. Like a horse, your blinders are working very well to ignore the fire that burns around you.
And like a horse, putting the cart in front never bodes well (business before product). Stock markets prove this daily, time and time again.
Yeah CCP's $46 million revenue earned in 2008 was really cutting to the bone and saving the players. Sure they could not cut back that monthly fee any more....have to make that profit.
So you bitch about people that want to buy items on a treadmill while you use your time to buy items on a treadmill...pot meet kettle. You bitch about mechanics because you can not compete on the one side odviously or do you not want to compete...good for you. Pleanty of people do want to compete on the money side and there seem to be enough of them to put you in the minority. As I said untill you prove your sides merit with mass exdouses from games bankrupting them.
WoW proved its product a long time ago. Now they are putting their business up front. Good for them. They are offering products to a subset of players that wanted their own flashies and now they are happy where they were sad before. Now you are sad where you were happy before. Fine show your righteous angry leave all games. Well will see if you and your followers are enough to effect the market in a real way.
What did that 'profit' go to? During the entire existence of EVE, what has CCP done with the 'profit'? Careful on how you define the terms here, because of how cash flow works, and how money gets allocated. I'd suggest treading lightly when you look at a patterned history of CCP working damn hard to make its product the best it can be.... in a niche arena that boasts little to no competition to speak of.
Again, the tone. And again, targetted to an audience that hasn't voiced itself. It's sad, really. We're talking about a GAME- about the EQUALITY OF PLAY. That means, if you don't have the time, the skill, the cash- whatever currency you want to invent- to achieve something in game, then it shouldn't be achieveable via another currency. That's the point- that's always been the point. Read that forwards, and backwards to make sure you understand the inclusiveness of the statement.
WoW was a proven product that has been increasingly milked while decreasingly delivering product. It's a greed-show, and any MMORPG veteran can see that. You mention profit like it brings new, and new is good. But you fail to examine the effects of greed, and how there isn't an argument to be made defending WoW from that word. They aren't offering any more game than they are triggering the 'reward' endorphins of the brain of the masses of their players.
And what's with the tone- again? What's with the targetted audience that still hasn't voiced itself? I'm making pinpointed attacks at the logic you fail to present, and your posts continue to bash a demographic you've demonized inside your head. Logical fallacy? Methinkso.
According to CCP's finacials from 2008 Total income: $49,978,806 (converted US dollars)....reinvestment in CCP $3,496,666...total profit $46,482,140...with a $5,062,431 profit increase from 2007. That includes mechandise, advertisements, and all revenue gained by the company for that year.
but you only want equality of time. which in itself is unfair. True equality would be all forms of investment in a game time and money could be used to equal the playing field. Your blindness most be wonderful.
MMORPG veterans still play WoW and seem to like it. I know many that are going to go back for Cat. Why. Because Blizzard offers fun. I can be special by raiding, I can have a special pony I bought, I can be special because of my ability to pvp. Offering something for everyone. Till another game does that WoW will still be the most profitable game out there.
You are not making pinpoints attacks. You repeat opinion as if it was fact. I say my side is opinion and it can be proven wrong at an time by people leaving the games and them closing their doors. But I bet that for all your whining and complaining EQ2 and Bliizzard will keep humming along because either people like it or do not care.
EVE is so strongly established that ... it doesnt hurt. Same with WoW, really. best looking mount in the game goes on sell. I log in, there's 20 of them in Ironforge. it instantly stopped being something I want. If others like it by no means will I be hurt that they have it and I don't. It's not in my interests anymore. a level 48 gnome was jumping all over Ironforge in one.
I know whatever he did to get it i can do.
now if it was a drop off hardmode Arthas and the exact same mount was in the cash shop I'd have calmly and quietly cancelled my subscription and walked away. What's the difference? one is a cosmetic item. one is a very high-end raiding reward that can be obtained without going through the process of getting it. (and no I'll probably never kill 25LK HM).
Thus proving you want the "I won" shiny in the game to show to others. Good for you. What is your point. Till enough of you leave really who cares about your opinion. Enough people are buying that their opinion is the only one that matters at the moment. It does not cheapen it for them. It might actually increase their enjoyment.
Talk with your wallet because the other side already has.
It's not a game if you are buying your loot, rather than winning it in-game.
The difference between paying to achieve and playing to achieve is that in playing the game you are interacting with other players. Providing a gaming experience for them - as they do for you. That is supposed to be what MMOs are all about - playing together.
I suspect that soloers are far more into buying stuff from a cash shop than groupers.
I would have thought it would be the other way around, the groupers wanting to keep up with their peers are more likely to buy items/mounts to do so, where as a solo player only have themselves to judge by and as such have no real need to "Show off" that they have an expensive mount or exp potions etc.
Now I know quite a few in my guild in WoW wanted the new celestial mount, once a few got it others just had to have it aswell, and most of these guys are mature (Age) players like myself, personally i don't feel the need to include microtransactions within my monthly subscription, I am not however going to stop those that choose to to have a service that can provide them with items.
I'll bow out of this thread too. Its difficult to see any resemblence of meaningful conversation when it appears as though the damage control storm-troopers from Cryptic and SOE are flooding the thread repeatedly trying to make supportive sence of these cheap and shallow tchotche endeavors.
Gotta love the people who can't hold an argument try to make excuses like 'Cryptic and SOE employees are posting here'. Thats the best and easieset way out yes you are right sir it's just Crytpic and SOE employees. Here is your cookie for being so smart.
However, you completely failed to explain how cosmetic stuff from cash shops effects your gameplay in any manner.
You troll nicely but you really make no points. You name one company in a sea of companies and a company I have never heard of. Yeah for you. Enjoy their games. Probably will be limited and be of low quality. By all means go off and play in their field of dreams. Ta Ta.
Ah, and there we have it. The troll using his own term to try and label someone else. No, kind sir, YOU are the troll.
Arena.Net? You've never heard of Arena.Net? Commonly referred to as A.net? The makers of Guild Wars and the HIGHLY anticipated Guild Wars 2?
Kindly bow out of the thread before you make yourself look like more of a fool.
Sorry I do not troll your fanbois sites to keep up with A.Net being Arena.Net. Did not know I had to know your slang to play.
and your high and mighty Arena.Net is owned by NCSoft. A company that does not milk products for profit...no sir.
I'll bow out of this thread too. Its difficult to see any resemblence of meaningful conversation when it appears as though the damage control storm-troopers from Cryptic and SOE are flooding the thread repeatedly trying to make supportive sence of these cheap and shallow tchotche endeavors.
Gotta love the people who can't hold an argument try to make excuses like 'Crytpic and SOE exmployees are posting here'. Thats the best and easieset way out yes you are right sir it's just Crytpic and SOE employees. Here is your cookie for being so smart.
However, you completely failed to explain how cosmic stuff from cash shops effects your gameplay in any manner.
I'll bow out of this thread too. Its difficult to see any resemblence of meaningful conversation when it appears as though the damage control storm-troopers from Cryptic and SOE are flooding the thread repeatedly trying to make supportive sence of these cheap and shallow tchotche endeavors.
Gotta love the people who can't hold an argument try to make excuses like 'Crytpic and SOE exmployees are posting here'. Thats the best and easieset way out yes you are right sir it's just Crytpic and SOE employees. Here is your cookie for being so smart.
However, you completely failed to explain how cosmic stuff from cash shops effects your gameplay in any manner.
Was he ever in this thread?
Yeah, didn't last long though. When he couldn't explain how it effect him game play wise he threw all blame on SOE and Cyptic employees posting here (as our regular forum users) and fled.
So I PvE. PvE is indirect competition. you basically race against others in an obstacle course. made of void zones and shadow crashes. w/e. So I want...in this indirect race to establish my place.
In order to define my character, in the interest of immersion I must find that one place where e belongs and where character and player are in their element and in synch. I guess I'm talking about Immersion.
anyway, I'm ranting. so to cut to the point, an unnatural character progression through cash shops will disrupt this ability to place my character where it 'belongs'. let it be at top, bottom, middle etc. I find there's nothing RP in buying things with rela money. I firmly believe we're equal at loading screen and beyond that in-game activities ONLY should shape our characters. That's a fundamental rpinciple I play my games based on.
And I'm not trying to change a game in my image, i know i'm 1 out of milions so I don't mater. I'm just stating my opinion. I won't "vote with my wallet". My wallet is still not big enough to make a difference.
+1 I totally agree. I'm sick of these peoples making the same question of how does x item in cash shop affects your gameplay. A mmorpg is not only pvp. An item may not affect the pvp in the game but it does in other fields.
EVE is so strongly established that ... it doesnt hurt. Same with WoW, really. best looking mount in the game goes on sell. I log in, there's 20 of them in Ironforge. it instantly stopped being something I want. If others like it by no means will I be hurt that they have it and I don't. It's not in my interests anymore. a level 48 gnome was jumping all over Ironforge in one.
I know whatever he did to get it i can do.
now if it was a drop off hardmode Arthas and the exact same mount was in the cash shop I'd have calmly and quietly cancelled my subscription and walked away. What's the difference? one is a cosmetic item. one is a very high-end raiding reward that can be obtained without going through the process of getting it. (and no I'll probably never kill 25LK HM).
Thus proving you want the "I won" shiny in the game to show to others. Good for you. What is your point. Till enough of you leave really who cares about your opinion. Enough people are buying that their opinion is the only one that matters at the moment. It does not cheapen it for them. It might actually increase their enjoyment.
Talk with your wallet because the other side already has.
your argument has been made so many times that I feel it diserves my answer.
it's not the "I won" that i want. I want within the game to establish my place. Right now my place is somewhere in the world 2500s guild. That's not the top, it's not the almost-top it's at the front of the middle. I simply want my character to reflect this.
I enjoy in my game learning from those above me and helping those below me. I find that this process is greatly facilitated if the ones above know where I stand and also if the ones below know where i stand. It's one of my reasons to play mmos. I'm not a PvP person, I don't care for direct competition. I watched the video of 3 guys slaughtering a miner in darkfall today and it made me sick. I was never good at deciding when it's "okay" to open fire on someone...because -1- you always want to be at an advantage if possible and -2- you don't want to fight someone who is not causing you any reason to. For this conflict of interests i really can't pvp.
So I PvE. PvE is indirect competition. you basically race against others in an obstacle course. made of void zones and shadow crashes. w/e. So I want...in this indirect race to establish my place.
In order to define my character, in the interest of immersion I must find that one place where e belongs and where character and player are in their element and in synch. I guess I'm talking about Immersion.
anyway, I'm ranting. so to cut to the point, an unnatural character progression through cash shops will disrupt this ability to place my character where it 'belongs'. let it be at top, bottom, middle etc. I find there's nothing RP in buying things with rela money. I firmly believe we're equal at loading screen and beyond that in-game activities ONLY should shape our characters. That's a fundamental rpinciple I play my games based on.
And I'm not trying to change a game in my image, i know i'm 1 out of milions so I don't mater. I'm just stating my opinion. I won't "vote with my wallet". My wallet is still not big enough to make a difference.
One person buying a horse's wallet was not big enough either. But hundreds was. You leaving and hundreds or others leaving would be. That is the same rationalizing that says my one vote does not matter in a presidential election, but if you and thousand vote like you then it does matter, but if everyone thinks like you then no you do not matter one way or the other. You will just lay there and take it.
As to your place. Shrug. Your place is what you make of it. If you are good at what you do and as I said before you can buy and win the same items in a game then it does not matter how you got your item no one will know unless you tell them. Your place is secure.
I will fight all day that cash shop items should be available ingame for no extra money, but I will fight all day that items should be available to people to buy if they want them too. If a game fails because people leave so be it. Make a game where this principal works like Eve did.
Correct. And everyone that pays into this are driving the acceptability of shallowness in mmorpg's. Just chumps that are further contributing to the dumbing-down of mmorpg's.
I don't understand this comment. What MMO is challenging combat wise anymore? None. Once something is done once, it is then continually repeated. MMO's honestly are IMO a glorified chat room with something to do in it. MMO's will never again be not dumbed down and simple because all the companies realised they are in the market for "normal gamers" not the Hardcore over the top ones as they are few and far between, especially since the average MMO player is between 25-35.
I hear a lot of comments pointed directly at STO, mainly about playable factions. Who cares. In the game Klingons and Fed are at war. No crap you shouldn't play a Klingon, you are going to turn against your own kind? Yeah its been done, but it isn't common in history so to prevent it from becoming rampant, you make people pay for that perk. Sounds good to me.
This is all a pointless topic. When realising the age demographic and seeing shit games like Fallen Sword, Evony, and other browser based games make a crapton what do you expect? The major companies to say ah that little company in a crack in the wall is no competiton and its sucking more than 150bucks a year outta people but we will stick to our guns and do a standard monthly rate and no "buyable perks"?
Seriously if you DON'T like the way the market is going, make your own game and then get back to us on how much less or more profitable it would be for you to do the same thing with adding a cash shop. I bet you would add a cash shop if it was YOUR money on the line(or job)
Fluff items I an indifferent too. There are items in the game that only hardcores could get and there are fluff items that only cash shop can provide. *shrug* There are haves and have-nots on both sides. On side is not better than the other.
The funny thing to me is what it says about the game. $25.00 to transfer a toon to another server = The replayeability of your game is so bad I wouldn't just roll another toon. $25.00 for a mount = Travel in your game is such a pain in the posterior I'll pay anything to avoid it. $5.00 for an XP potion = Leveling in your game is so horrid I don't know why anyone would waste time playing it. $20.00 for extra inventory space = Your game is so loaded down with useless crap I can't carry it all. Paying for extra races = You think your game is worth the extra money for such basic gameplay content? Really?
Piggy-backing on your post, Zymurgeist... If I'm playing a MMO where I feel I need to get through content faster, that means that the content I'm bypassing isn't good enough to interest or entertain me enough to actually engage in. If I feel that I need to get somewhere faster, that tells me that the journey there is lacking in anything to keep me interested or entertained. The net result being... the game itself is lacking in what would make it entertaining for me (key words there: for me). I never have this problem in the P2P MMOs I play and enjoy; the content along the way keeps me entertained and I am always getting my money's worth. The moment a MMO - P2P, F2P or otherwise - stops entertaining me at any point, I stop playing it. If it's F2P, it's not worth my time. If it's P2P, then it's not worth my time or money.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
(didn't feel much like reading the whole thread, so read only the OP)
@OP: yeah, it is an undesirable trend to have to pay for AND the initial game AND the sub AND (optionally) added services/items.
But the last year(s) have also proven that people are willing to pay more for their MMO gaming. If I'd have to guess, there'll be enough people who're willing to easily pay 50-250 $ on a year base on top of their sub for their favorite MMO, if they like what they get for it in return. You only have to see how much money teens sometimes spend monthly for their mobile sub, and those are merely the teens, not even the 20yr+ players that have more cash to spend.
So I think the trend will continue, and companies are smart enough to avoid the hotspots like offering buyable 'epic quality' items that'd cause major outrage, while still offering more and more likeable services and items people are willing to pay for.
People who think that the companies will invest all that money back into their game, better lose that naivety quick. Sure, that point of view could (arguably) be debated for companies who're struggling to gain enough money. But you can be assured that for the major companies it's all about the added profit that will make the shareholders, the topmanagers and other business chiefs (ie bonuses) very happy.
That'll be the trend, nothing you can do about it, so that's why I like the approach of a ArenaNet so much, who is on a different tactics instead of the 'grab the money while you can' tactics of others, with their high quality sub-free games GW and GW2.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Capitalism at its best=working as intended. If there wasn't a market for this they wouldn't charge for it. If you build it they will come and they have. Consumers (gamers) want it, so they make it. It's not rocket science.
I would like to mention here that GW also has a cash shop and generates huge amount of profit from it. Infact for me GW model turned out to be more expensive then regular sub. First to pay full amount of box/expac and then use item shops for things which are must if you are a dedicated player like extra character slots/ storage space etc. So nope i don't agree that NCsoft does not indulge in item shop system. GW2 in my opinion will turn out to be more expensive compared to regular 14 month sub.
so you define your something as being better than others....and knowning who is below you....ok...nice...Southern Whites liked to know slaves were below them. To each their own I do not get my personal self satisfaction of knowing who is below me. I get mine from knowing I completed something. it is personal. I do not need the clap on the back from others. I will ride out my time in the shadows knowing I did it. I do not have to be first because if it is the first time for me it is a first no matter who has been there. I do not look to boards, charts, stats, etc to define my fun. I do not care if you buy the same sword I just fought for or I bought the same sword you just fought for. I do not care. I have it and my satisfaction comes from using it in a way that does not embarass myself infront of others. I do not care if they know what I did to achieve it. You can be an epic X decked out number 1 rated badazz and you get in a group and blow it...screw you you are number 1 piece of crap. Who cares who is below or above you on an item or achievement list.
that is our difference you allow the game to define you....I define the game. I make my fun, my achievements, my goals. I collect x items on my time and my way. I do not need to the game to tell me now you are 10 you are sort of having fun when you are 8 you will be having fun and 6 and below is having a lot of fun.
That'll be the trend, nothing you can do about it, so that's why I like the approach of a ArenaNet so much, who is on a different tactics instead of the 'grab the money while you can' tactics of others, with their high quality sub-free games GW and GW2.
But we'll see on that.
They already have a cash shop that sells skill packs for pvp characters, the standard extra character slots, and a few other things that escape me.
As it is, being able to buy all of your skills in one swoop is enough to send some players into a tizzy. And heck, I'm all for cosmetic items in a cash shop but I actually balk at the whole skill pack thing. Yet there it is.
I wouldn't be surprised if they made some ends meet with a more robust cash shop of some sort for GW 2. Not saying they are going to sell game breaking items but people seem to be conveniently forgetting that Arena Net is part of NC Soft which is a publicly traded company and they aleady incorporate a cash shop.
So why not one in GW 2?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
That'll be the trend, nothing you can do about it, so that's why I like the approach of a ArenaNet so much, who is on a different tactics instead of the 'grab the money while you can' tactics of others, with their high quality sub-free games GW and GW2.
But we'll see on that.
They already have a cash shop that sells skill packs for pvp characters, the standard extra character slots, and a few other things that escape me.
As it is, being able to buy all of your skills in one swoop is enough to send some players into a tizzy. And heck, I'm all for cosmetic items in a cash shop but I actually balk at the whole skill pack thing. Yet there it is.
I wouldn't be surprised if they made some ends meet with a more robust cash shop of some sort for GW 2. Not saying they are going to sell game breaking items but people seem to be conveniently forgetting that Arena Net is part of NC Soft which is a publicly traded company and they aleady incorporate a cash shop.
So why not one in GW 2?
Exactly. GW2"s main source of income will be item shop just like GW which has almost anything you desire for your character. Its a good business so i am sure they will implement in GW2. Cyphers doe not know or forgot to mention that GW sells skill packs which gives advantage in PVP over players who like to unlock skills through PVE or regular PVP arenas.
People who think that the companies will invest all that money back into their game, better lose that naivety quick. Sure, that point of view could (arguably) be debated for companies who're struggling to gain enough money. But you can be assured that for the major companies it's all about the added profit that will make the shareholders, the topmanagers and other business chiefs (ie bonuses) very happy.
That'll be the trend, nothing you can do about it, so that's why I like the approach of a ArenaNet so much, who is on a different tactics instead of the 'grab the money while you can' tactics of others, with their high quality sub-free games GW and GW2.
No one is saying they will invest all the money back in, but having the pool of money makes them more likely to invest more. A fool kills his golden goose with neglect and those companies will fall away. A good company will increase profits to real investors, put more money into marketing, and product development. Maybe produce something new with their cash without going out of house as much or get a better rate because the chance of returns are higher.
Fly by night companies tend to late a few years real companies invest for the future.
Everyone points at ArenaNet...but they are part of a highly profitable company already. They can be the arm that carries a smaller revenue. Watch NCSoft get introuble finacially and was how GW changes. Wait till NCSoft needs some cash and suddenly GW is offering DL's and items for extra cash. Now a sub is needed for extra charcters slots or a bigger bank. Blizzard 6 years ago was not charging extra for stuff. Then they joined a company that wants and might need cash. Not knowing their true finacials maybe Blizzard needs to make up lost revenue from account attrition with item sales. When GW2 is as old as WoW we will see if they are charging for stuff. These are businesses and business expect revenue levels. If these are not met then companies have to get creative.
you left out the part about those above me on purpose didn't you?
well played.
I think knowing who's below AND who's above gives a better definition than only knowing who is below. But sure call me a racist. that works too.
edit: how you choose to play and define your game(s) is entirely your choice. It's also a choice that differs from mine. I don't think labeling it right/wrong or hinting at that is appropriate.
and "who cares?"...well, me. otherwise i wouldn't be here. I'm always confused to claim I care about something and get the reply "who cares".
I do not think you are a racist. That was not the point. That is what you choose to see. You are a Classist. You see things in Classes. Who is above you and who is below you. You work to make yourself in the highest Class you can. As Southerners used slaves to put themselves into a higher class. You think if slaves did not elevate their class the South would have fought and died for slaves? The South would and did enslave whites (indentured farmers), blacks, latinos, indians. They did not care so much about your race as they did keep their status.
But back to you. You define yourself by Class and much like the South you will fight tooth and nail to ensure your Class and how you define yourself is not touched by an alternate means of achieving the same Class.
I wouldn't be surprised if they made some ends meet with a more robust cash shop of some sort for GW 2. Not saying they are going to sell game breaking items but people seem to be conveniently forgetting that Arena Net is part of NC Soft which is a publicly traded company and they aleady incorporate a cash shop.
So why not one in GW 2?
True, we don't know yet. But it won't be initial game buy + sub + additional payable items/services.
And seeing how they managed their current MMO Guild Wars on a fairly reasonable base, no subs while also no excessive 'F2P itemshopping' as you see with other games while still providing good services and maintenance throughout the years, provides enough trust at least in my eyes that they will continue that path also for GW2.
Of course, we can't tell right now how it really will be until GW2 is released. But the real examples of the other MMO companies on the other hand tells enough about what route they are taking: sub+ semi item/service shop.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
Ah, and there we have it. The troll using his own term to try and label someone else. No, kind sir, YOU are the troll.
Arena.Net? You've never heard of Arena.Net? Commonly referred to as A.net? The makers of Guild Wars and the HIGHLY anticipated Guild Wars 2?
Kindly bow out of the thread before you make yourself look like more of a fool.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Nope its not weaker because 'no advantage' exists here. Unless you want to control other people spending habits thats completely different subject. Morover, selling cosmetic pets, clothes, ships etc in no way equals to content. I thik you are confused about what playable content really means. The only thing thats cheapning MMORPG is cry babies whose game is not effected by cash shops and yet they want to cry just for the sake of it.
I'll bow out of this thread too. Its difficult to see any resemblence of meaningful conversation when it appears as though the damage control storm-troopers from Cryptic and SOE are flooding the thread repeatedly trying to make supportive sence of these cheap and shallow tchotche endeavors.
According to CCP's finacials from 2008 Total income: $49,978,806 (converted US dollars)....reinvestment in CCP $3,496,666...total profit $46,482,140...with a $5,062,431 profit increase from 2007. That includes mechandise, advertisements, and all revenue gained by the company for that year.
but you only want equality of time. which in itself is unfair. True equality would be all forms of investment in a game time and money could be used to equal the playing field. Your blindness most be wonderful.
MMORPG veterans still play WoW and seem to like it. I know many that are going to go back for Cat. Why. Because Blizzard offers fun. I can be special by raiding, I can have a special pony I bought, I can be special because of my ability to pvp. Offering something for everyone. Till another game does that WoW will still be the most profitable game out there.
You are not making pinpoints attacks. You repeat opinion as if it was fact. I say my side is opinion and it can be proven wrong at an time by people leaving the games and them closing their doors. But I bet that for all your whining and complaining EQ2 and Bliizzard will keep humming along because either people like it or do not care.
Thus proving you want the "I won" shiny in the game to show to others. Good for you. What is your point. Till enough of you leave really who cares about your opinion. Enough people are buying that their opinion is the only one that matters at the moment. It does not cheapen it for them. It might actually increase their enjoyment.
Talk with your wallet because the other side already has.
I would have thought it would be the other way around, the groupers wanting to keep up with their peers are more likely to buy items/mounts to do so, where as a solo player only have themselves to judge by and as such have no real need to "Show off" that they have an expensive mount or exp potions etc.
Now I know quite a few in my guild in WoW wanted the new celestial mount, once a few got it others just had to have it aswell, and most of these guys are mature (Age) players like myself, personally i don't feel the need to include microtransactions within my monthly subscription, I am not however going to stop those that choose to to have a service that can provide them with items.
Gotta love the people who can't hold an argument try to make excuses like 'Cryptic and SOE employees are posting here'. Thats the best and easieset way out yes you are right sir it's just Crytpic and SOE employees. Here is your cookie for being so smart.
However, you completely failed to explain how cosmetic stuff from cash shops effects your gameplay in any manner.
Sorry I do not troll your fanbois sites to keep up with A.Net being Arena.Net. Did not know I had to know your slang to play.
and your high and mighty Arena.Net is owned by NCSoft. A company that does not milk products for profit...no sir.
Was he ever in this thread?
Yeah, didn't last long though. When he couldn't explain how it effect him game play wise he threw all blame on SOE and Cyptic employees posting here (as our regular forum users) and fled.
Now where is my tinfoil hat?
Dark days and damnations are coming. 2012 and is here already it seems.
+1 I totally agree. I'm sick of these peoples making the same question of how does x item in cash shop affects your gameplay. A mmorpg is not only pvp. An item may not affect the pvp in the game but it does in other fields.
One person buying a horse's wallet was not big enough either. But hundreds was. You leaving and hundreds or others leaving would be. That is the same rationalizing that says my one vote does not matter in a presidential election, but if you and thousand vote like you then it does matter, but if everyone thinks like you then no you do not matter one way or the other. You will just lay there and take it.
As to your place. Shrug. Your place is what you make of it. If you are good at what you do and as I said before you can buy and win the same items in a game then it does not matter how you got your item no one will know unless you tell them. Your place is secure.
I will fight all day that cash shop items should be available ingame for no extra money, but I will fight all day that items should be available to people to buy if they want them too. If a game fails because people leave so be it. Make a game where this principal works like Eve did.
I don't understand this comment. What MMO is challenging combat wise anymore? None. Once something is done once, it is then continually repeated. MMO's honestly are IMO a glorified chat room with something to do in it. MMO's will never again be not dumbed down and simple because all the companies realised they are in the market for "normal gamers" not the Hardcore over the top ones as they are few and far between, especially since the average MMO player is between 25-35.
I hear a lot of comments pointed directly at STO, mainly about playable factions. Who cares. In the game Klingons and Fed are at war. No crap you shouldn't play a Klingon, you are going to turn against your own kind? Yeah its been done, but it isn't common in history so to prevent it from becoming rampant, you make people pay for that perk. Sounds good to me.
This is all a pointless topic. When realising the age demographic and seeing shit games like Fallen Sword, Evony, and other browser based games make a crapton what do you expect? The major companies to say ah that little company in a crack in the wall is no competiton and its sucking more than 150bucks a year outta people but we will stick to our guns and do a standard monthly rate and no "buyable perks"?
Seriously if you DON'T like the way the market is going, make your own game and then get back to us on how much less or more profitable it would be for you to do the same thing with adding a cash shop. I bet you would add a cash shop if it was YOUR money on the line(or job)
Fluff items I an indifferent too. There are items in the game that only hardcores could get and there are fluff items that only cash shop can provide. *shrug* There are haves and have-nots on both sides. On side is not better than the other.
Piggy-backing on your post, Zymurgeist... If I'm playing a MMO where I feel I need to get through content faster, that means that the content I'm bypassing isn't good enough to interest or entertain me enough to actually engage in. If I feel that I need to get somewhere faster, that tells me that the journey there is lacking in anything to keep me interested or entertained. The net result being... the game itself is lacking in what would make it entertaining for me (key words there: for me). I never have this problem in the P2P MMOs I play and enjoy; the content along the way keeps me entertained and I am always getting my money's worth. The moment a MMO - P2P, F2P or otherwise - stops entertaining me at any point, I stop playing it. If it's F2P, it's not worth my time. If it's P2P, then it's not worth my time or money.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
(didn't feel much like reading the whole thread, so read only the OP)
@OP: yeah, it is an undesirable trend to have to pay for AND the initial game AND the sub AND (optionally) added services/items.
But the last year(s) have also proven that people are willing to pay more for their MMO gaming. If I'd have to guess, there'll be enough people who're willing to easily pay 50-250 $ on a year base on top of their sub for their favorite MMO, if they like what they get for it in return. You only have to see how much money teens sometimes spend monthly for their mobile sub, and those are merely the teens, not even the 20yr+ players that have more cash to spend.
So I think the trend will continue, and companies are smart enough to avoid the hotspots like offering buyable 'epic quality' items that'd cause major outrage, while still offering more and more likeable services and items people are willing to pay for.
People who think that the companies will invest all that money back into their game, better lose that naivety quick. Sure, that point of view could (arguably) be debated for companies who're struggling to gain enough money. But you can be assured that for the major companies it's all about the added profit that will make the shareholders, the topmanagers and other business chiefs (ie bonuses) very happy.
That'll be the trend, nothing you can do about it, so that's why I like the approach of a ArenaNet so much, who is on a different tactics instead of the 'grab the money while you can' tactics of others, with their high quality sub-free games GW and GW2.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Capitalism at its best=working as intended. If there wasn't a market for this they wouldn't charge for it. If you build it they will come and they have. Consumers (gamers) want it, so they make it. It's not rocket science.
@cyphers
I would like to mention here that GW also has a cash shop and generates huge amount of profit from it. Infact for me GW model turned out to be more expensive then regular sub. First to pay full amount of box/expac and then use item shops for things which are must if you are a dedicated player like extra character slots/ storage space etc. So nope i don't agree that NCsoft does not indulge in item shop system. GW2 in my opinion will turn out to be more expensive compared to regular 14 month sub.
so you define your something as being better than others....and knowning who is below you....ok...nice...Southern Whites liked to know slaves were below them. To each their own I do not get my personal self satisfaction of knowing who is below me. I get mine from knowing I completed something. it is personal. I do not need the clap on the back from others. I will ride out my time in the shadows knowing I did it. I do not have to be first because if it is the first time for me it is a first no matter who has been there. I do not look to boards, charts, stats, etc to define my fun. I do not care if you buy the same sword I just fought for or I bought the same sword you just fought for. I do not care. I have it and my satisfaction comes from using it in a way that does not embarass myself infront of others. I do not care if they know what I did to achieve it. You can be an epic X decked out number 1 rated badazz and you get in a group and blow it...screw you you are number 1 piece of crap. Who cares who is below or above you on an item or achievement list.
that is our difference you allow the game to define you....I define the game. I make my fun, my achievements, my goals. I collect x items on my time and my way. I do not need to the game to tell me now you are 10 you are sort of having fun when you are 8 you will be having fun and 6 and below is having a lot of fun.
But we'll see on that.
They already have a cash shop that sells skill packs for pvp characters, the standard extra character slots, and a few other things that escape me.
As it is, being able to buy all of your skills in one swoop is enough to send some players into a tizzy. And heck, I'm all for cosmetic items in a cash shop but I actually balk at the whole skill pack thing. Yet there it is.
I wouldn't be surprised if they made some ends meet with a more robust cash shop of some sort for GW 2. Not saying they are going to sell game breaking items but people seem to be conveniently forgetting that Arena Net is part of NC Soft which is a publicly traded company and they aleady incorporate a cash shop.
So why not one in GW 2?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Exactly. GW2"s main source of income will be item shop just like GW which has almost anything you desire for your character. Its a good business so i am sure they will implement in GW2. Cyphers doe not know or forgot to mention that GW sells skill packs which gives advantage in PVP over players who like to unlock skills through PVE or regular PVP arenas.
No one is saying they will invest all the money back in, but having the pool of money makes them more likely to invest more. A fool kills his golden goose with neglect and those companies will fall away. A good company will increase profits to real investors, put more money into marketing, and product development. Maybe produce something new with their cash without going out of house as much or get a better rate because the chance of returns are higher.
Fly by night companies tend to late a few years real companies invest for the future.
Everyone points at ArenaNet...but they are part of a highly profitable company already. They can be the arm that carries a smaller revenue. Watch NCSoft get introuble finacially and was how GW changes. Wait till NCSoft needs some cash and suddenly GW is offering DL's and items for extra cash. Now a sub is needed for extra charcters slots or a bigger bank. Blizzard 6 years ago was not charging extra for stuff. Then they joined a company that wants and might need cash. Not knowing their true finacials maybe Blizzard needs to make up lost revenue from account attrition with item sales. When GW2 is as old as WoW we will see if they are charging for stuff. These are businesses and business expect revenue levels. If these are not met then companies have to get creative.
I do not think you are a racist. That was not the point. That is what you choose to see. You are a Classist. You see things in Classes. Who is above you and who is below you. You work to make yourself in the highest Class you can. As Southerners used slaves to put themselves into a higher class. You think if slaves did not elevate their class the South would have fought and died for slaves? The South would and did enslave whites (indentured farmers), blacks, latinos, indians. They did not care so much about your race as they did keep their status.
But back to you. You define yourself by Class and much like the South you will fight tooth and nail to ensure your Class and how you define yourself is not touched by an alternate means of achieving the same Class.
True, we don't know yet. But it won't be initial game buy + sub + additional payable items/services.
And seeing how they managed their current MMO Guild Wars on a fairly reasonable base, no subs while also no excessive 'F2P itemshopping' as you see with other games while still providing good services and maintenance throughout the years, provides enough trust at least in my eyes that they will continue that path also for GW2.
Of course, we can't tell right now how it really will be until GW2 is released. But the real examples of the other MMO companies on the other hand tells enough about what route they are taking: sub+ semi item/service shop.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."