Originally posted by batolemaeus Nope, factual. The only people that are actually a functioning entity in the economy and pvp landscape are the producers, they are somewhat the link. Most producers are heavily involved with the rest of eve. Mission runners, on the other hand, are responsible for an extreme influx of minerals and single handedly devalued the mining profession. Highsec mining further devalued the other minerals. All the while they are not active in the social network.As an economy, eve would be much better without them. The current capital excesses and problems with insurance are mostly caused by an overproduction of minerals, ironically not from mining but from the fact that the production of minerals that were formerly very hard to get (e.g. zyd/mega/morphite) is now extremely easy. If I were to tell my corp that I'd take out my hulks to go mine some Hemorphite, i'd be laughed at. When I started Arkonor/Bistot/Crokite were something like the holy grail. They were worth enough that people organized escorts and shared the profit. Since then and with a huge influx of mission runners and alloy farmers the mineral market went belly up and resource gathering went from moderately boring but rewarding to very boring with bad pay.
I won't comment on your 'points' since anyone can make his own picture on what you said, I am just surprised how narrow minded and limited your view(and knowledge?) on the game is.
I doubt Eve is dying but it is stagnating, subscriber wise, and that is, imo, mainly because of CCPs unwillingness to do something about the archaic UI and huge death penalty coupled with the fact that gankers can get away with pretty much anything. Heck 9/10 PvP encounters in Eve is some kind of ganking and even remotely even encounters are basically unheard of.
Arachaic UI could use some work (larger fonts would help) but overall I find the current UI just fine. Huge Death penalty is relative, I can shrug a 300M ISK BS loss, but for other players that would be really painful I suppose. But the core gameplay is about the risk, it keeps PVP in perspective and gives it some meaning. Players don't just rush in blindly hoping to do as much damage as they can, the real goal is to be still standing afterwards.
Ganking...yep, strongly encouraged by CCP, in fact, in EVE if you aren't ganking someone, you're doing something wrong. You should never be in a fair fight, ever.
Biggest things CCP needs to focus on include solving the 0.0 fleet combat lag and Incarna, between these two they can easily push the number of subs to 400K.
That is the main reason this game does not cater to 90% of the MMOG playerbase. Ganking others may be fun, for some people, but getting ganked is not fun for anyone.
Couple that with huge death penalty and it is easy to see why this game caters to such a small nische of the market. And please, stop with the old black-and-white argument that it is either like WoW or like Eve. There is something inbetween the two.
The only people that are actually a functioning entity in the economy and pvp landscape are the producers, they are somewhat the link. Most producers are heavily involved with the rest of eve.
Mission runners, on the other hand, are responsible for an extreme influx of minerals and single handedly devalued the mining profession. Highsec mining further devalued the other minerals. All the while they are not active in the social network.
As an economy, eve would be much better without them. The current capital excesses and problems with insurance are mostly caused by an overproduction of minerals, ironically not from mining but from the fact that the production of minerals that were formerly very hard to get (e.g. zyd/mega/morphite) is now extremely easy. If I were to tell my corp that I'd take out my hulks to go mine some Hemorphite, i'd be laughed at. When I started Arkonor/Bistot/Crokite were something like the holy grail. They were worth enough that people organized escorts and shared the profit. Since then and with a huge influx of mission runners and alloy farmers the mineral market went belly up and resource gathering went from moderately boring but rewarding to very boring with bad pay.
I won't comment on your 'points' since anyone can make his own picture on what you said, I am just surprised how narrow minded and limited your view(and knowledge?) on the game is.
Really unexpected and disappointed.
At one time players worked crazy "old school" hard for really cool ships and had great combat with them. Today, the game has changed. Players are in overdrive for the biggest guns and the fastest ship, and CCP has shown a willingness to cater to this crowd.
I'm not one to be upset by the changes, but anyone who has played this game for a long time can see them. EVE has grown and is a successful MMO, while most have failed or have gone stagnate.
I like both the hardcore and empire play.
I think your wrong, though, to think this game hasn't gone away from it roots and that it couldn't be a very successful MMO if it choose to scale down and return to them.
TBH one could also argue your view on this is unexpected.
I don't care one bit and love the game, but sometimes I stop and think about all the things I had to struggle through and train, in a game where the Raven and Megathron where the top of the line ships. It's a much different game today.
I doubt Eve is dying but it is stagnating, subscriber wise, and that is, imo, mainly because of CCPs unwillingness to do something about the archaic UI and huge death penalty coupled with the fact that gankers can get away with pretty much anything. Heck 9/10 PvP encounters in Eve is some kind of ganking and even remotely even encounters are basically unheard of.
Arachaic UI could use some work (larger fonts would help) but overall I find the current UI just fine. Huge Death penalty is relative, I can shrug a 300M ISK BS loss, but for other players that would be really painful I suppose. But the core gameplay is about the risk, it keeps PVP in perspective and gives it some meaning. Players don't just rush in blindly hoping to do as much damage as they can, the real goal is to be still standing afterwards.
Ganking...yep, strongly encouraged by CCP, in fact, in EVE if you aren't ganking someone, you're doing something wrong. You should never be in a fair fight, ever.
Biggest things CCP needs to focus on include solving the 0.0 fleet combat lag and Incarna, between these two they can easily push the number of subs to 400K.
That is the main reason this game does not cater to 90% of the MMOG playerbase. Ganking others may be fun, for some people, but getting ganked is not fun for anyone.
Couple that with huge death penalty and it is easy to see why this game caters to such a small nische of the market. And please, stop with the old black-and-white argument that it is either like WoW or like Eve. There is something inbetween the two.
They're not trying to cater to the masses and I hope they never do. There are plenty of games out there that have pointless instanced, fixed number sides battlegrounds and arenas with no death penatly. Eve is one of only a handful of game that has anything goes type PvP where losing isn't just a minor inconvience. Changing the system now would be devastating.
I'm tired of the victim mentality. Oh poor me, I can't go into low sec because mean pirates in big ships are going to gank me. There are so many high sec mission runners that if even a small fraction of them banded together they could easily overwhelm any pirate camp. Then probably go on to lock down any low sec system with good agents.
Yes there is plenty of gray area in between WoW and Eve. But let some other game fill that void, I hope Eve stays put.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I doubt Eve is dying but it is stagnating, subscriber wise, and that is, imo, mainly because of CCPs unwillingness to do something about the archaic UI and huge death penalty coupled with the fact that gankers can get away with pretty much anything. Heck 9/10 PvP encounters in Eve is some kind of ganking and even remotely even encounters are basically unheard of.
Arachaic UI could use some work (larger fonts would help) but overall I find the current UI just fine. Huge Death penalty is relative, I can shrug a 300M ISK BS loss, but for other players that would be really painful I suppose. But the core gameplay is about the risk, it keeps PVP in perspective and gives it some meaning. Players don't just rush in blindly hoping to do as much damage as they can, the real goal is to be still standing afterwards.
Ganking...yep, strongly encouraged by CCP, in fact, in EVE if you aren't ganking someone, you're doing something wrong. You should never be in a fair fight, ever.
Biggest things CCP needs to focus on include solving the 0.0 fleet combat lag and Incarna, between these two they can easily push the number of subs to 400K.
1) That is the main reason this game does not cater to 90% of the MMOG playerbase. Ganking others may be fun, for some people, but getting ganked is not fun for anyone.
2) Couple that with huge death penalty and it is easy to see why this game caters to such a small nische of the market.
3) And please, stop with the old black-and-white argument that it is either like WoW or like Eve. There is something inbetween the two.
1) yes, we are in complete agreement. I'm just glad that CCP hasn't fallen for the lure of easy money and destroyed what makes the game great for those of us who enjoy it. I hate being ganked BTW, and am actually more carebear than killer, I enjoy the thrill of evasion perhaps more than the killing.
2) Again, the death penalty isn't that huge. You really can't lose anything unique, just ships which are almost always replaceable, and become easier and easier to replace the more ISK you manage to acquire. Due to careful gameplay on my part, I don't lose ships very often.
3) I missed where I made such a black and white argument, of course there is room for something in between WOW and EVE, I loved playing DAOC, especially on the FFA PVP server Mordred and it certainly was a game enjoyed by many.
With all the other games out on the market more to your liking, what I can't figure out is why you want EVE to be changed? Is it strictly because its one of the few space games or that you enjoy the rest of EVE's gameplay aside from this distain for the hardcore pvp and death penalties.
In the end, does EVE need to appeal to the 90% of the game market (who BTW, frequently hate EVE for many other factors besides its PVP model)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by qazyman TBH one could also argue your view on this is unexpected.
I think you are quite mistaken on how I see the game.
I am the last one to not notice the changes. It is more than a year when I was saying the game goes more or less mainstream as something inevitable and calling all 3 last expansions a failure for the exact same reasons - only adding content without actually improving the game, addressing the game issues.
What was unexpected of batolemaeus is dissing the mission runners from position of arrogant 'hardcore' pvper regardless the fact they are validly injecting economy with resources as such being important part of the game economy.
March 2009 ( Apocrypha release ) : 264646 active paying accounts
June 2009 : 307340 active paying accounts
August 2009 ( Unholy rage ) : 299921 active paying accounts
January 2010 : 328992 active paying accounts
On top of that there are around 40k active trial accounts on average.
Either way, Apocrypha was a major success, and the only real bad thing introduced was a buggy sound engine.
Visit my site http://www.mmodata.net to view the full history of Sub and PCU numbers from EVE.
Now it could be possible there is a decline currently, because the sound engine still is not fixed and the lag issues since Dominion are still big, but there was definatly no decline due to Apocrypha.
I hope to get new numbers from CCP soon.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Because for subscription numbers, the people that subscribe their first month are not counted, neither are volunteers.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
1) That is the main reason this game does not cater to 90% of the MMOG playerbase. Ganking others may be fun, for some people, but getting ganked is not fun for anyone.
2) Couple that with huge death penalty and it is easy to see why this game caters to such a small nische of the market.
3) And please, stop with the old black-and-white argument that it is either like WoW or like Eve. There is something inbetween the two.
1) yes, we are in complete agreement. I'm just glad that CCP hasn't fallen for the lure of easy money and destroyed what makes the game great for those of us who enjoy it. I hate being ganked BTW, and am actually more carebear than killer, I enjoy the thrill of evasion perhaps more than the killing.
2) Again, the death penalty isn't that huge. You really can't lose anything unique, just ships which are almost always replaceable, and become easier and easier to replace the more ISK you manage to acquire. Due to careful gameplay on my part, I don't lose ships very often.
3) I missed where I made such a black and white argument, of course there is room for something in between WOW and EVE, I loved playing DAOC, especially on the FFA PVP server Mordred and it certainly was a game enjoyed by many.
With all the other games out on the market more to your liking, what I can't figure out is why you want EVE to be changed? Is it strictly because its one of the few space games or that you enjoy the rest of EVE's gameplay aside from this distain for the hardcore pvp and death penalties.
In the end, does EVE need to appeal to the 90% of the game market (who BTW, frequently hate EVE for many other factors besides its PVP model)
Yep pretty much. Eve got alot going for it and it could be bigger if it just would tone down that extreme death penalty it has. It is a space sci-fi game and is sandbox FFA, PvP. One of the very few, ruined mainly because of its over the board death penalty.
Honestly I dont think they will lose that many people if they toned it down a bit. Sure they are some people who thinks playing a computer game like Eve makes them a real man but I wager the vast majority wouldn't mind the death penalty be a little lower. That is evident by the fact that more than 50% of the playerbase rarely leaves high-sec. I bet alot of them would if they didnt risk losing so much.
Again, to others (not you), who dont get it. Lower death penalty does not need to mean no death penalty, like WoW.
PS. There are no other games to my liking. I want FFA PvP, sandbox MMOGs and since Darkfall and Mortal Online is lacking in quality Eve is the only one out there. But 1-2 hours downtime for one death in a battleship (or more for T2 Cruisers), feels more like work than a game. Really shouldnt have to be like that and I doubt very much that it would "destroy" anything if they toned it down a bit to say maybe 20 mins downtime? Still penalizing enough to not wanna die but not devestating.
Originally posted by Yamota PS. There are no other games to my liking. I want FFA PvP, sandbox MMOGs and since Darkfall and Mortal Online is lacking in quality Eve is the only one out there. But 1-2 hours downtime for one death in a battleship (or more for T2 Cruisers), feels more like work than a game. Really shouldnt have to be like that and I doubt very much that it would "destroy" anything if they toned it down a bit to say maybe 20 mins downtime? Still penalizing enough to not wanna die but not devestating.
Do not fly what you can't afford to lose.
Why do you risk something you do not want to lose in first place?
Part about EVE is ISK management.
You say you want a sandbox but then you do what is not really sandboxy. You want the game adjust to your play style instead of you adapting to the game.
PS. There are no other games to my liking. I want FFA PvP, sandbox MMOGs and since Darkfall and Mortal Online is lacking in quality Eve is the only one out there. But 1-2 hours downtime for one death in a battleship (or more for T2 Cruisers), feels more like work than a game. Really shouldnt have to be like that and I doubt very much that it would "destroy" anything if they toned it down a bit to say maybe 20 mins downtime? Still penalizing enough to not wanna die but not devestating.
Do not fly what you can't afford to lose.
Why do you risk something you do not want to lose in first place?
Part about EVE is ISK management.
You say you want a sandbox but then you do what is not really sandboxy. You want the game adjust to your play style instead of you adapting to the game.
LOL just in another I said I'd take advice from someone else, but honestly Yamota, you'd be wise to listen to this guy.
Frankly, I don't think the changes you'd like to see would increase EVE's population at all. I think they would lose a major portion of their playerbase before the first month was up.
The occasional "devastating" loss of something valuable can be quite an adrenaline rush every now and again. It puts a little hair on your chest, man! New Eden was originally supposed to be a cold harsh universe, and it still is. Why should that change?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
PS. There are no other games to my liking. I want FFA PvP, sandbox MMOGs and since Darkfall and Mortal Online is lacking in quality Eve is the only one out there. But 1-2 hours downtime for one death in a battleship (or more for T2 Cruisers), feels more like work than a game. Really shouldnt have to be like that and I doubt very much that it would "destroy" anything if they toned it down a bit to say maybe 20 mins downtime? Still penalizing enough to not wanna die but not devestating.
Do not fly what you can't afford to lose.
Why do you risk something you do not want to lose in first place?
Part about EVE is ISK management.
You say you want a sandbox but then you do what is not really sandboxy. You want the game adjust to your play style instead of you adapting to the game.
To quote off this...
If you have a ship you think you might lose... have a second one fully fitted out and loaded up with ammo/supplies ready to go wherever you might be.
PS. There are no other games to my liking. I want FFA PvP, sandbox MMOGs and since Darkfall and Mortal Online is lacking in quality Eve is the only one out there. But 1-2 hours downtime for one death in a battleship (or more for T2 Cruisers), feels more like work than a game. Really shouldnt have to be like that and I doubt very much that it would "destroy" anything if they toned it down a bit to say maybe 20 mins downtime? Still penalizing enough to not wanna die but not devestating.
Do not fly what you can't afford to lose.
Why do you risk something you do not want to lose in first place?
Part about EVE is ISK management.
You say you want a sandbox but then you do what is not really sandboxy. You want the game adjust to your play style instead of you adapting to the game.
Well, I can understand where Yamota's coming, from not sure I could see reducing the death penalty to simply a downtime only item, but I could see lowering the cost of the replacing ships a bit, because especially as a new player, you have to do a lot of PVE to really support PVP.
Sure, this incentive drives many players to develop their PVE skills to be self maintaining (point of it all I think) but for some players its a turn off no doubt and they don't care for it.
In the end though, EVE is what it is, the playerbase they currently have accepts the ruleset as is, and dramatic changes to it would likely devestate the game's core player base if NGE, TOA and other previous expansions are any indication.
CCP has stayed successful by making only slight changes to their core model which includes a harsher pvp death penalty.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
PS. There are no other games to my liking. I want FFA PvP, sandbox MMOGs and since Darkfall and Mortal Online is lacking in quality Eve is the only one out there. But 1-2 hours downtime for one death in a battleship (or more for T2 Cruisers), feels more like work than a game. Really shouldnt have to be like that and I doubt very much that it would "destroy" anything if they toned it down a bit to say maybe 20 mins downtime? Still penalizing enough to not wanna die but not devestating.
Do not fly what you can't afford to lose.
Why do you risk something you do not want to lose in first place?
Part about EVE is ISK management.
You say you want a sandbox but then you do what is not really sandboxy. You want the game adjust to your play style instead of you adapting to the game.
To quote off this...
If you have a ship you think you might lose... have a second one fully fitted out and loaded up with ammo/supplies ready to go wherever you might be.
It's like having a "ready bag" in other MMOs.
My god if I had to buy and fit a ship everytime I lost one in PVP, I probably would be bitching too. You have to have those puppies equipped and ready to go at all times. I often have three or four ships of the same type(s) I'm using at any given time loaded and prepared to undock as needed.
This is basic stuff in EVE.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Originally posted by Yamota Yep pretty much. Eve got alot going for it and it could be bigger if it just would tone down that extreme death penalty it has. It is a space sci-fi game and is sandbox FFA, PvP. One of the very few, ruined mainly because of its over the board death penalty.
The death penalty is as high as you want it to be... use a clone pod and fly T1 ships (battlecruisers are cheap, quite effective and totally insurable) and you will lose just a few milion ISK per death, that's a lv4 mission or two (if you pvp in low sec only, the clone pod is almost unnecessary, as it's almost impossible to kill a pod without bubbles)...
PS. There are no other games to my liking. I want FFA PvP, sandbox MMOGs and since Darkfall and Mortal Online is lacking in quality Eve is the only one out there. But 1-2 hours downtime for one death in a battleship (or more for T2 Cruisers), feels more like work than a game. Really shouldnt have to be like that and I doubt very much that it would "destroy" anything if they toned it down a bit to say maybe 20 mins downtime? Still penalizing enough to not wanna die but not devestating.
Do not fly what you can't afford to lose.
Why do you risk something you do not want to lose in first place?
Part about EVE is ISK management.
You say you want a sandbox but then you do what is not really sandboxy. You want the game adjust to your play style instead of you adapting to the game.
Well, I can understand where Yamota's coming, from not sure I could see reducing the death penalty to simply a downtime only item, but I could see lowering the cost of the replacing ships a bit, because especially as a new player, you have to do a lot of PVE to really support PVP.
Sure, this incentive drives many players to develop their PVE skills to be self maintaining (point of it all I think) but for some players its a turn off no doubt and they don't care for it.
In the end though, EVE is what it is, the playerbase they currently have accepts the ruleset as is, and dramatic changes to it would likely devestate the game's core player base if NGE, TOA and other previous expansions are any indication.
CCP has stayed successful by making only slight changes to their core model which includes a harsher pvp death penalty.
A new players PVP expenses should be limited to t1 frigates and cruisers. Most corps will provide tackle frigates for free (or just give the new guy 10 mill to go buy some more).
Incidentally this is another argument against the all too common "I should wait till I have 30M SP and can fly a Command Ship before I start PvPing" fallacy. When your learning experiences cost a mill or two each you can afford a lot more experience.
EVE requires a lot of thinking and planning ahead. Money is everything and if you don't apply proper money management you'll be broke before you know it. Unlike many other MMOs where money only serves to get a better set of equipemt and such, EVE takes it a step further and you have to establish a constant money inflow to support you play style with PvP being the most expensive one.
So, unless you are extremely good at PvP, you will have to spend some time earning money through PvE, mining, trading, producing, exploring, scamming other players or any other way that suits your style. Being in a corp that financially supports your loses is very helpful but it will take some time before they consider you a valuable member to have.
Also, don't forget that there is one thing that prospers from such a harsh sistem. High loses = high demand = healthy economy.
You might think that your suggestion would improve one segment of EVE but you will inevitably damage the other.
Yep pretty much. Eve got alot going for it and it could be bigger if it just would tone down that extreme death penalty it has. It is a space sci-fi game and is sandbox FFA, PvP. One of the very few, ruined mainly because of its over the board death penalty.
The death penalty is as high as you want it to be... use a clone pod and fly T1 ships (battlecruisers are cheap, quite effective and totally insurable) and you will lose just a few milion ISK per death, that's a lv4 mission or two (if you pvp in low sec only, the clone pod is almost unnecessary, as it's almost impossible to kill a pod without bubbles)...
Running around without a current clone is just BEGGING for trouble. ^^ Just as one should never fly anything that one can't afford to replace, one should *never* be without a current clone.
Originally posted by Wraithone Running around without a current clone is just BEGGING for trouble. ^^ Just as one should never fly anything that one can't afford to replace, one should *never* be without a current clone.
i mean, the jump clone without implants, not the medical clone, THAT one is ALWAYS to be replaced before even leaving the station :P
Making the death penalty lower would not fix anything. The player base is not asking for that.
During my time in lowsec I lost many ships, even had to relocate two times, once because a pirate corp was killing me too much and once because there was just to much activity and hard to get back to highsec for trade.
But now I found myself a nice place in lowsec again ( for now ). Still I had alot of fun ( and pain ) avoiding the pirates, sneaking thru gatecamps, ninja looting the pirate kills, etc. in my previous home areas.
Death penalties are not the problem, they are not even harsh, except on older players ( who have to pay alot on clones on top of the more expensive ships they fly ).
What is a problem are the many leftover bugs and incomplete features from previous expansions.
If CCP needs anything then it is to fix bugs, lag and incomplete features, and then they would get even more subs.
Not that CCP has a problem currently, EVE is the only Premium MMORPG in the West that is still growing ... ( as far as we can tell ). And with the Tyrannis expansion many bugs were actually fixed.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site : http://mmodata.blogspot.be/ Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Since Apoc. expansion EVE playerbase is in decline. Atm there are 311k account and in apoc. expansion where 350k+ players. Owerall -49k account total in decline.
With introduction of Dominion expansion, players cant even fight in null sec. anymore, becouse everthing locks down / big lag. Latest such big event was, when 2k players fighted in one system and ccp was forced down to shut down that sistem due extreme lag (lol).
Latest EVE events are only lag fest: 2-5 fps max for a player.
Since Apoc. expansion EVE playerbase is in decline. Atm there are 311k account and in apoc. expansion where 350k+ players. Owerall -49k account total in decline.
With introduction of Dominion expansion, players cant even fight in null sec. anymore, becouse everthing locks down / big lag. Latest such big event was, when 2k players fighted in one system and ccp was forced down to shut down that sistem due extreme lag (lol).
Latest EVE events are only lag fest: 2-5 fps max for a player.
Maybe he lost a ship due to lag, so he's crying about it. Or maybe he doesn't even currently play the game, and just feel like trolling because he has too much time on his hands.
Eve online is growing faster than most MMO's, and currently has more subscribers than most (the only games that I can think of with more subscriptions than Eve is WoW, Lineage, and maybe Aion). Let's not count Maple Story because its for 10 year olds.
If CCP wasn't making so much money from Eve, they would not have been able to afford to put up advertisement banners on Yahoo (which I bet are very expensive), and a lot of other websites. You should also note that CCP went public, and Eve is currently their only product.
Comments
Well compared to Aion sieges it is nothing.
I won't comment on your 'points' since anyone can make his own picture on what you said, I am just surprised how narrow minded and limited your view(and knowledge?) on the game is.
Really unexpected and disappointed.
That is the main reason this game does not cater to 90% of the MMOG playerbase. Ganking others may be fun, for some people, but getting ganked is not fun for anyone.
Couple that with huge death penalty and it is easy to see why this game caters to such a small nische of the market. And please, stop with the old black-and-white argument that it is either like WoW or like Eve. There is something inbetween the two.
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At one time players worked crazy "old school" hard for really cool ships and had great combat with them. Today, the game has changed. Players are in overdrive for the biggest guns and the fastest ship, and CCP has shown a willingness to cater to this crowd.
I'm not one to be upset by the changes, but anyone who has played this game for a long time can see them. EVE has grown and is a successful MMO, while most have failed or have gone stagnate.
I like both the hardcore and empire play.
I think your wrong, though, to think this game hasn't gone away from it roots and that it couldn't be a very successful MMO if it choose to scale down and return to them.
TBH one could also argue your view on this is unexpected.
I don't care one bit and love the game, but sometimes I stop and think about all the things I had to struggle through and train, in a game where the Raven and Megathron where the top of the line ships. It's a much different game today.
They're not trying to cater to the masses and I hope they never do. There are plenty of games out there that have pointless instanced, fixed number sides battlegrounds and arenas with no death penatly. Eve is one of only a handful of game that has anything goes type PvP where losing isn't just a minor inconvience. Changing the system now would be devastating.
I'm tired of the victim mentality. Oh poor me, I can't go into low sec because mean pirates in big ships are going to gank me. There are so many high sec mission runners that if even a small fraction of them banded together they could easily overwhelm any pirate camp. Then probably go on to lock down any low sec system with good agents.
Yes there is plenty of gray area in between WoW and Eve. But let some other game fill that void, I hope Eve stays put.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
1) yes, we are in complete agreement. I'm just glad that CCP hasn't fallen for the lure of easy money and destroyed what makes the game great for those of us who enjoy it. I hate being ganked BTW, and am actually more carebear than killer, I enjoy the thrill of evasion perhaps more than the killing.
2) Again, the death penalty isn't that huge. You really can't lose anything unique, just ships which are almost always replaceable, and become easier and easier to replace the more ISK you manage to acquire. Due to careful gameplay on my part, I don't lose ships very often.
3) I missed where I made such a black and white argument, of course there is room for something in between WOW and EVE, I loved playing DAOC, especially on the FFA PVP server Mordred and it certainly was a game enjoyed by many.
With all the other games out on the market more to your liking, what I can't figure out is why you want EVE to be changed? Is it strictly because its one of the few space games or that you enjoy the rest of EVE's gameplay aside from this distain for the hardcore pvp and death penalties.
In the end, does EVE need to appeal to the 90% of the game market (who BTW, frequently hate EVE for many other factors besides its PVP model)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think you are quite mistaken on how I see the game.
I am the last one to not notice the changes. It is more than a year when I was saying the game goes more or less mainstream as something inevitable and calling all 3 last expansions a failure for the exact same reasons - only adding content without actually improving the game, addressing the game issues.
What was unexpected of batolemaeus is dissing the mission runners from position of arrogant 'hardcore' pvper regardless the fact they are validly injecting economy with resources as such being important part of the game economy.
Of course they do cater to masses.
You want to cater to minority, you will hit the cap fast and then you have to look into deeper waters where most fish are.
How else do you think a game could get more subscribers?
@ OP
Your facts are incorrect.
Here are the numbers for active paying accounts :
March 2009 ( Apocrypha release ) : 264646 active paying accounts
June 2009 : 307340 active paying accounts
August 2009 ( Unholy rage ) : 299921 active paying accounts
January 2010 : 328992 active paying accounts
On top of that there are around 40k active trial accounts on average.
Either way, Apocrypha was a major success, and the only real bad thing introduced was a buggy sound engine.
Visit my site http://www.mmodata.net to view the full history of Sub and PCU numbers from EVE.
Now it could be possible there is a decline currently, because the sound engine still is not fixed and the lag issues since Dominion are still big, but there was definatly no decline due to Apocrypha.
I hope to get new numbers from CCP soon.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Also, this link is interesting, but proves little :
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1321437&page=1#19
Because for subscription numbers, the people that subscribe their first month are not counted, neither are volunteers.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
Yep pretty much. Eve got alot going for it and it could be bigger if it just would tone down that extreme death penalty it has. It is a space sci-fi game and is sandbox FFA, PvP. One of the very few, ruined mainly because of its over the board death penalty.
Honestly I dont think they will lose that many people if they toned it down a bit. Sure they are some people who thinks playing a computer game like Eve makes them a real man but I wager the vast majority wouldn't mind the death penalty be a little lower. That is evident by the fact that more than 50% of the playerbase rarely leaves high-sec. I bet alot of them would if they didnt risk losing so much.
Again, to others (not you), who dont get it. Lower death penalty does not need to mean no death penalty, like WoW.
PS. There are no other games to my liking. I want FFA PvP, sandbox MMOGs and since Darkfall and Mortal Online is lacking in quality Eve is the only one out there. But 1-2 hours downtime for one death in a battleship (or more for T2 Cruisers), feels more like work than a game. Really shouldnt have to be like that and I doubt very much that it would "destroy" anything if they toned it down a bit to say maybe 20 mins downtime? Still penalizing enough to not wanna die but not devestating.
My gaming blog
Do not fly what you can't afford to lose.
Why do you risk something you do not want to lose in first place?
Part about EVE is ISK management.
You say you want a sandbox but then you do what is not really sandboxy. You want the game adjust to your play style instead of you adapting to the game.
LOL just in another I said I'd take advice from someone else, but honestly Yamota, you'd be wise to listen to this guy.
Frankly, I don't think the changes you'd like to see would increase EVE's population at all. I think they would lose a major portion of their playerbase before the first month was up.
The occasional "devastating" loss of something valuable can be quite an adrenaline rush every now and again. It puts a little hair on your chest, man! New Eden was originally supposed to be a cold harsh universe, and it still is. Why should that change?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
To quote off this...
If you have a ship you think you might lose... have a second one fully fitted out and loaded up with ammo/supplies ready to go wherever you might be.
Well, I can understand where Yamota's coming, from not sure I could see reducing the death penalty to simply a downtime only item, but I could see lowering the cost of the replacing ships a bit, because especially as a new player, you have to do a lot of PVE to really support PVP.
Sure, this incentive drives many players to develop their PVE skills to be self maintaining (point of it all I think) but for some players its a turn off no doubt and they don't care for it.
In the end though, EVE is what it is, the playerbase they currently have accepts the ruleset as is, and dramatic changes to it would likely devestate the game's core player base if NGE, TOA and other previous expansions are any indication.
CCP has stayed successful by making only slight changes to their core model which includes a harsher pvp death penalty.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's like having a "ready bag" in other MMOs.
My god if I had to buy and fit a ship everytime I lost one in PVP, I probably would be bitching too. You have to have those puppies equipped and ready to go at all times. I often have three or four ships of the same type(s) I'm using at any given time loaded and prepared to undock as needed.
This is basic stuff in EVE.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The death penalty is as high as you want it to be... use a clone pod and fly T1 ships (battlecruisers are cheap, quite effective and totally insurable) and you will lose just a few milion ISK per death, that's a lv4 mission or two (if you pvp in low sec only, the clone pod is almost unnecessary, as it's almost impossible to kill a pod without bubbles)...
A new players PVP expenses should be limited to t1 frigates and cruisers. Most corps will provide tackle frigates for free (or just give the new guy 10 mill to go buy some more).
Incidentally this is another argument against the all too common "I should wait till I have 30M SP and can fly a Command Ship before I start PvPing" fallacy. When your learning experiences cost a mill or two each you can afford a lot more experience.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
EVE requires a lot of thinking and planning ahead. Money is everything and if you don't apply proper money management you'll be broke before you know it. Unlike many other MMOs where money only serves to get a better set of equipemt and such, EVE takes it a step further and you have to establish a constant money inflow to support you play style with PvP being the most expensive one.
So, unless you are extremely good at PvP, you will have to spend some time earning money through PvE, mining, trading, producing, exploring, scamming other players or any other way that suits your style. Being in a corp that financially supports your loses is very helpful but it will take some time before they consider you a valuable member to have.
Also, don't forget that there is one thing that prospers from such a harsh sistem. High loses = high demand = healthy economy.
You might think that your suggestion would improve one segment of EVE but you will inevitably damage the other.
Running around without a current clone is just BEGGING for trouble. ^^ Just as one should never fly anything that one can't afford to replace, one should *never* be without a current clone.
i mean, the jump clone without implants, not the medical clone, THAT one is ALWAYS to be replaced before even leaving the station :P
Making the death penalty lower would not fix anything. The player base is not asking for that.
During my time in lowsec I lost many ships, even had to relocate two times, once because a pirate corp was killing me too much and once because there was just to much activity and hard to get back to highsec for trade.
But now I found myself a nice place in lowsec again ( for now ). Still I had alot of fun ( and pain
) avoiding the pirates, sneaking thru gatecamps, ninja looting the pirate kills, etc. in my previous home areas.
Death penalties are not the problem, they are not even harsh, except on older players ( who have to pay alot on clones on top of the more expensive ships they fly ).
What is a problem are the many leftover bugs and incomplete features from previous expansions.
If CCP needs anything then it is to fix bugs, lag and incomplete features, and then they would get even more subs.
Not that CCP has a problem currently, EVE is the only Premium MMORPG in the West that is still growing ... ( as far as we can tell ). And with the Tyrannis expansion many bugs were actually fixed.
If you are interested in subscription or PCU numbers for MMORPG's, check out my site :
http://mmodata.blogspot.be/
Favorite MMORPG's : DAoC pre ToA-NF, SWG Pre CU-NGE, EVE Online
WoW did you turn out to be wrong!
Record high and over 50k everyday of the week
Yeah, I was on yesterday with well over 54,000 other capsuleers..
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
This was nothing but a troll post.
Maybe he lost a ship due to lag, so he's crying about it. Or maybe he doesn't even currently play the game, and just feel like trolling because he has too much time on his hands.
Eve online is growing faster than most MMO's, and currently has more subscribers than most (the only games that I can think of with more subscriptions than Eve is WoW, Lineage, and maybe Aion). Let's not count Maple Story because its for 10 year olds.
If CCP wasn't making so much money from Eve, they would not have been able to afford to put up advertisement banners on Yahoo (which I bet are very expensive), and a lot of other websites. You should also note that CCP went public, and Eve is currently their only product.