Is there a market for old school gamers?

Eronakis

Clearly there is an over abundance of factions of mmo players here. We can paradigm them in many different ways. For this thread, there are the old school gamers and new age gamers. What I mean by this is, mmo players that played before 2004. And the new school are gamers who played 2004 and up.

For us  the old school gamers who played UO, EQ, SWG, DaOC and AC to name a few, are you willing to play an mmo that goes back to the roots of the mmo philosphy of the old school design? Consider the following...

No instances, no quick travel, more incentives for grouping versus solo, a sense of adventure with immersion, community incentives and reputations, world pvp, diverse class design, diverse skill set design, challenge and to earn your spot in a guild and powerful items to just name a few.

However, with the old school philosphy of game design for mmos we can still implement new gameplay, graphics and immersion. I truly believe there is a niche market for this type playerbase. I haven't seen any new up coming title with these qualities of what mmorpgs are truly suppose to be.

So now I ask you, is there a playerbase willing to play an mmorpg, whether its themepark or sandbox or both with the old school mmo qualities with some new innovations? Please answer below.

Reizla

I'm no real old-school MMO player, since I started playing MMOs in 2005. But I did start out with Lineage II, and most of what you discribe there tells me L2 is semi old-school. Since I enjoyed L2 so much, I wish there are more games developed like that.

Eronakis

Originally posted by Reizla

I'm no real old-school MMO player, since I started playing MMOs in 2005. But I did start out with Lineage II, and most of what you discribe there tells me L2 is semi old-school. Since I enjoyed L2 so much, I wish there are more games developed like that.

Yeah, I totally forgot  about the Lineage Series. I never played L2, but I did hear it had some decent game design. I do know that it does have the EQ side effect of time constrants.

Eronakis

So lets discuss...how many subscriptions do you think this mmorpg would receive? Whether it be themepark or sandbox it doesn't matter. I would say around 75k-125k for a consistant basis. What would make the world more dianamic and immersive is if the world was seamless and played on a single shard server. The range I believe it could reach would be a great amount of old school gamers that melds with some new age gamers for our own niche game. I for one, strive for a game like this one day. But it seems as if its not happening.

Wickedjelly

Depends on how far you want to take it.  From what I've seen even a bulk of those that title themselves part of the 'old school' gang can't agree on what should be brought back from those days.

I miss the community from back then and how open some of the older mmos felt compared to newer ones in the level some of them are going far as instancing things.   I don't miss the need for camping, the downtime relative to some classes reliant on spell casting, spell failure rates, getting trained, lack of interesting story lines, etc.

Far as fast travelling goes I don't really care one way or the other.  It's nice in games that have it but I've done just fine in games that don't or it took a long time to be able to save up for acquring the mount or the ability to fast travel.  Don't see the fuss about that issue myself.  Never did understand why some balked about it so much personally.

Axehilt

It's not a question of whether there is a market.  There's a market for virtually everything.

Size of Market vs. Cost to Produce is the real question.

Eronakis

Originally posted by Axehilt

It's not a question of whether there is a market.  There's a market for virtually everything.

Size of Market vs. Cost to Produce is the real question.

That is the better question. What do you perdict each entity is personally? What size is the market for this game in your opinion?

Harafnir

With the old school community of yesteryear? Sure! With the new MMO player generation, and everyone that joined in the last 5-6 years... together with 20 year olds that think they are "old school".... Nope, not a chance. Games can be the same.. the community will not. And the old games depended on community.

Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Harafnir

And the old games depended on community.

 Whether they want to accept it or not I personally think this is what the majority of old school gamers miss more than anything else from those days.

...and for better or worse those days are gone for good. 

MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Harafnir

And the old games depended on community.

 Whether they want to accept it or not I personally think this is what the majority of old school gamers miss more than anything else from those days.

...and for better or worse those days are gone for good. 

Not neccessarily. There are going to be more and more niche games, and community-based MMOs are likely to be one of those niches.

Cephus404

Depends on your real question.  Are there people who would want an old-school style game?  Certainly.  There are people who would like just about any conceivable playstyle.  However, is that a large enough number of people that it would be financially viable for a AAA developer to spend millions of dollars and years of development to make and still make a significant return on their investment.

Nope.  Not a chance.

uquipu

An MMO with the best graphics? Best combat, lack of lag?
.
A big AAA MMO?
.
No.
.
Will an indy company make something?
.
Probably.
.
Remember too that old school MMO'ers fall into many camps, UO, EQ, SWG. All three were pretty different.
.
And most suffer from nostalgia. If you build it, they might remember that it sucked back in the old days and leave..

Moaky07

Originally posted by Eronakis

Clearly there is an over abundance of factions of mmo players here. We can paradigm them in many different ways. For this thread, there are the old school gamers and new age gamers. What I mean by this is, mmo players that played before 2004. And the new school are gamers who played 2004 and up.

For us  the old school gamers who played UO, EQ, SWG, DaOC and AC to name a few, are you willing to play an mmo that goes back to the roots of the mmo philosphy of the old school design? Consider the following...

No instances, no quick travel, more incentives for grouping versus solo, a sense of adventure with immersion, community incentives and reputations, world pvp, diverse class design, diverse skill set design, challenge and to earn your spot in a guild and powerful items to just name a few.

However, with the old school philosphy of game design for mmos we can still implement new gameplay, graphics and immersion. I truly believe there is a niche market for this type playerbase. I haven't seen any new up coming title with these qualities of what mmorpgs are truly suppose to be.

So now I ask you, is there a playerbase willing to play an mmorpg, whether its themepark or sandbox or both with the old school mmo qualities with some new innovations? Please answer below.

 You mention open world PvP, but it wasnt the huge market for us folks playing MMOs before 2004. My native EQ1 had almost as many subs as any 2 of the others combined heading into 2004 when WoW launched.

 

There was about  7 to 10%(4 out of like 40 or 50 total) of the total servers in EQ dedicated to PVP....and they didnt hold a candle to a normal server player wise.

 

So many threads on here going on and on about old school = PVP sandbox....but it wasnt. EQ WAS the epitome of oldschool. It was a class based themepark, and it stood head and shoulders over anything around until WOW took over the Western title.

Axehilt

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by Axehilt

It's not a question of whether there is a market.  There's a market for virtually everything.

Size of Market vs. Cost to Produce is the real question.

That is the better question. What do you perdict each entity is personally? What size is the market for this game in your opinion?

Well EVE fits 90-100% of your list and is quite successful despite the niche population.  It doesn't have the budget of WOW, but nevertheless has some good money sunk into it.

I mean I can't really directly answer these questions I can merely point out examples of games which have met with varying degrees of success.

Also it's not like EVE's success was a simple matter of finding a niche and making a game.  It was finding a niche and making a very good game to service that niche's needs.

Rohn

Originally posted by Cephus404

Depends on your real question.  Are there people who would want an old-school style game?  Certainly.  There are people who would like just about any conceivable playstyle.  However, is that a large enough number of people that it would be financially viable for a AAA developer to spend millions of dollars and years of development to make and still make a significant return on their investment.

Nope.  Not a chance.

 

This, and the point made earlier by Axehilt, are the answers, I believe.

Contrary to the OP's initial point, there are games that exist or are being developed to cater to the old school niche: EvE, Darkfall, Mortal Online, Xsyon, Aerrevan, Perpetuum, and Dawntide to name a few.

These are titles that are being developed by small to very small game companies.  Other than EvE, most either have or will have very small playerbases.

I think herein lies the answer.  "Old school" players like to fancy themselves the real arbiters of MMO play, and routinely overestimate their importance and the popularity of their style of play.  To me, if there really was this enormous yet untapped "silent majority" of people desiring old school play, one of the larger developers would likely be producing such a game to tap into that money.

In my opinion, the games of today are not some sort of freak aberration - they are an evolution of "old school" games.  Many of the changes in design simply streamline some of the tedious, timesink style of gameplay so often found in older games.  Unfortunately, those are some of the same elements that converged to create the feel of those early gameworlds - gameworlds, mind you, that had little competition back in those days.

Not suprisingly, if those older games were put out today, they would not compare favorably.

They'd probably do just as well today with marketing a car that starts with a hand-crank, with a top speed of 45 mph, and no air-conditioning, heat, radio, or cupholders.

Cephus404

Originally posted by Rohn

In my opinion, the games of today are not some sort of freak aberration - they are an evolution of "old school" games.  Many of the changes in design simply streamline some of the tedious, timesink style of gameplay so often found in older games.  Unfortunately, those are some of the same elements that converged to create the feel of those early gameworlds - gameworlds, mind you, that had little competition back in those days.

Exactly.  These old-school people seem to think that the entire universe stopped in 2004 and everything that has happened thereafter has been a step backwards.  The reality is, the vast majority of players who started with UO or EQ or DAoC all moved on and are either playing WoW or other games today, or aren't playing at all.  It's a ridiculous idea to think that the vast majority of former EQ players are sitting around dreaming about the return of EQ.  It was a good game for it's time, like Pong was a good game for it's time, but times have changed and so, too, have the players.  Modern games are the way they are because the majority of paying players WANT THEM THAT WAY!  The reason games are no longer made with massive timesinks, absurd downtime and extreme difficulty is because the people who actually pay the bills don't want to play those games.

People need to get a grip and join reality.

Amathe

I can remember when PvPers were really upset that there were so few FFA PvP games anymore. They were basically told on forums to get over it, that those days had passed.

 

Then lo and behold more and more games started noticing that this was a need not being met, and suddenly there are a whole lot of those games.

 

The same is true of old style PvE games. Eventually someone will pay attention, because that market really is there.

Khors

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Eronakis

Originally posted by Axehilt

It's not a question of whether there is a market.  There's a market for virtually everything.

Size of Market vs. Cost to Produce is the real question.

That is the better question. What do you perdict each entity is personally? What size is the market for this game in your opinion?

Well EVE fits 90-100% of your list and is quite successful despite the niche population.  It doesn't have the budget of WOW, but nevertheless has some good money sunk into it.

I mean I can't really directly answer these questions I can merely point out examples of games which have met with varying degrees of success.

Also it's not like EVE's success was a simple matter of finding a niche and making a game.  It was finding a niche and making a very good game to service that niche's needs.

Yes.  As a Pre-Tram Baja server vet; an old-schooler I guess, DF didnt really hit the mark, MO didn't.   There is a large audiance of vet players from various games that have yet to find a mmo with the right recipe for themselves.  EvE probably did hit the mark the best.   Controlled progressive open PvP like EvE.  Not only has it progressed to one of the most successful indie games in the market over 7 years, it holds 'as' large if not larger and more consistent player-base than many "A" mature studio mmorpgs.

 

So yet with a bare-bones game, CCP managed to eventually grow and Prosper. Why? It wasn't a matter of pure random luck.  EVE as it was released was a mostly-empty sandbox, where the focus of the endgame was on player interaction, cooperation, conflicts and community, a sense of adventure, skill diversity, challenge, no game-play entitlements, not presided over by the devs.

 

A sandboxy game doesnt have to be every minute of game-play all about PvP, ffa no consequence pvp, but a better Indie game does have progressively unrestricted open PvP and areas of calm; with the areas of calm and safety that doesn't demean the progressive games sandboxy player-centric value, but accentuates it without over-running it.

DerWotan

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Rohn

In my opinion, the games of today are not some sort of freak aberration - they are an evolution of "old school" games.  Many of the changes in design simply streamline some of the tedious, timesink style of gameplay so often found in older games.  Unfortunately, those are some of the same elements that converged to create the feel of those early gameworlds - gameworlds, mind you, that had little competition back in those days.

Exactly.  These old-school people seem to think that the entire universe stopped in 2004 and everything that has happened thereafter has been a step backwards.  The reality is, the vast majority of players who started with UO or EQ or DAoC all moved on and are either playing WoW or other games today, or aren't playing at all.  It's a ridiculous idea to think that the vast majority of former EQ players are sitting around dreaming about the return of EQ.  It was a good game for it's time, like Pong was a good game for it's time, but times have changed and so, too, have the players.  Modern games are the way they are because the majority of paying players WANT THEM THAT WAY!  The reason games are no longer made with massive timesinks, absurd downtime and extreme difficulty is because the people who actually pay the bills don't want to play those games.

People need to get a grip and join reality.

 

You don't have a real clue do you? People "moved" on from Ultima Online, Everquest 1, Daoc ...because:

- UO: Chilton + Trammel if you don't know what that means use a seach engine and youl'll understand

- Everquest 1:  After Verant was bought out by Sony we were in their world and it showed the first (big) time with OOW which was crap

- Daoc: ask the players about free levels stuff like that

Oh yeah so despite Wow, Aion all ez-mode games are doing enormously well right? Quit this "majority" BS the vocal ez-mode crowd is not the majority. A bunch of "I want to do nothing and crap a reward for it" forum whiners are not the majority. Theres a simple reason why so much games these day are that way:

studios ruined by publishers, shareholders and investors people that have absolutely no clue about gaming!

"people that actually pay the bills" guess you are another wowaholoic? If you sub you pay your 15 $/month that simple.

Like it not there wil be more old school games because some companies are starting to realize that World of Warcraft is the exclusion not the example. Vanguard would nowadays easily gather 200 - 400k +.

Isane

Originally posted by Eronakis

Clearly there is an over abundance of factions of mmo players here. We can paradigm them in many different ways. For this thread, there are the old school gamers and new age gamers. What I mean by this is, mmo players that played before 2004. And the new school are gamers who played 2004 and up.

For us  the old school gamers who played UO, EQ, SWG, DaOC and AC to name a few, are you willing to play an mmo that goes back to the roots of the mmo philosphy of the old school design? Consider the following...

No instances, no quick travel, more incentives for grouping versus solo, a sense of adventure with immersion, community incentives and reputations, world pvp, diverse class design, diverse skill set design, challenge and to earn your spot in a guild and powerful items to just name a few.

However, with the old school philosphy of game design for mmos we can still implement new gameplay, graphics and immersion. I truly believe there is a niche market for this type playerbase. I haven't seen any new up coming title with these qualities of what mmorpgs are truly suppose to be.

So now I ask you, is there a playerbase willing to play an mmorpg, whether its themepark or sandbox or both with the old school mmo qualities with some new innovations? Please answer below.

The answer is yes but there is a problem, if you allow a shard or instance to go above a critical point then the critical mass of idiots gets to a point where they can ruin and harasss in game 24x7.

I am not sure developers can eben develop to the old standards as before 2004 we had MMOs that were games, now they aren't anything more than easy mode whack a mole barring a couple of exceptions which in effect adhere to pre 2004 methods.

There a re a lot of features people seem to expect in MMOs which unless there is a C change in thinking will never allow MMOs to be developed as they were. Just a couple are Auction Houses /Guilds/ Auto mail and trade all world community killers. Now the only content developed is quests and guild related elements which is in fact a very narrow spectrum of what these games should be. People have lost sight of this lending to what are mostly dire gaming experiences compared to the exitement experienced in the past.

BobRoss

Without a doubt yes.

Been gaming since 1982. I had a Pong Machine and an Atari 2600. I grew up playing games and whether I like it or not will always be compelled to playing games. I have seen alot come and go. I Have seen the movement of consoles from 8 bit to 16 to 32 to 64. Playstation was a huge hit for me before college. I stopped playing through college and got introduced to the PC where I found this game called Diablo. Played it online with many peeps and had a blast. Got hooked on Diablo 2 LOD until I lost my job because of the economic problems during the 9/11 attacks. After I built myself back up and had some spare time I got Hooked on WoW for roughly 4-5 years. Here I am today waiting for the next big thing. 

As an older gamer, I have conformed and seen alot. Bringing back some "old skool" wouldnt hurt at all.

Bob

thorwood

I have my doubts as to whether those who would like to play an "old school game" would play if for more than a few hours.

I think people have forgotten how tedious features were such as slow travel, massive grind for xp, heavy death penalties, camping the same area for hours, contested spawns, massive downtime waiting for health and power (mana) to regenerate, kill stealing, once only world changing events that you missed and did not experience because you were not online during that particular hour.

The gaming community has changed since the old school days.  Many changes removed issues being caused by problem players.  

For me, "old school" is early EQ.  EQ was pve focused.  The industry has a lot of new tools that have improved the game since early EQ.

Rather than ask for an "old school game", the definition of which lacks consensus,  it is better to have features that best fit a particular game world.

Cephus404

Originally posted by DerWotan

You don't have a real clue do you? People "moved" on from Ultima Online, Everquest 1, Daoc ...because:

- UO: Chilton + Trammel if you don't know what that means use a seach engine and youl'll understand

- Everquest 1:  After Verant was bought out by Sony we were in their world and it showed the first (big) time with OOW which was crap

- Daoc: ask the players about free levels stuff like that

Most of those changes were specifically made to cater to a larger audience.  Nobody decided out of the blue that they ought to destroy a game, just because they felt like it.  They were trying to attract a larger audience than the ones they currently had.  There just wasn't enough paying players currently playing their games for them to be satisfied.

Oh yeah so despite Wow, Aion all ez-mode games are doing enormously well right? Quit this "majority" BS the vocal ez-mode crowd is not the majority. A bunch of "I want to do nothing and crap a reward for it" forum whiners are not the majority. Theres a simple reason why so much games these day are that way:

studios ruined by publishers, shareholders and investors people that have absolutely no clue about gaming!

Okay, you have absolutely no clue about gaming, or at the very least the business aspect of gaming.  That much is painfully clear.

"people that actually pay the bills" guess you are another wowaholoic? If you sub you pay your 15 $/month that simple.

Nope, can't stand WoW, in fact if you actually bothered to read, you'd look at my sig and see exactly what I've played and what I'm currently playing.  Sorry that's so difficult for you.

Like it not there wil be more old school games because some companies are starting to realize that World of Warcraft is the exclusion not the example. Vanguard would nowadays easily gather 200 - 400k +.

I couldn't care less if someone wants to make old school games, if you can convince a developer to make one, more power to you.  Have a good old time playing.  But sitting around on a forum whining about it isn't going to get you anything and acting like someone somehow owes you one of these games is laughable at best.

Until you can actually find someone who is actually funding an old school games, it remains wishful thinking.

LotosSlayer

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by DerWotan

You don't have a real clue do you? People "moved" on from Ultima Online, Everquest 1, Daoc ...because:

- UO: Chilton + Trammel if you don't know what that means use a seach engine and youl'll understand

- Everquest 1:  After Verant was bought out by Sony we were in their world and it showed the first (big) time with OOW which was crap

- Daoc: ask the players about free levels stuff like that

Most of those changes were specifically made to cater to a larger audience.  Nobody decided out of the blue that they ought to destroy a game, just because they felt like it.  They were trying to attract a larger audience than the ones they currently had.  There just wasn't enough paying players currently playing their games for them to be satisfied.

Oh yeah so despite Wow, Aion all ez-mode games are doing enormously well right? Quit this "majority" BS the vocal ez-mode crowd is not the majority. A bunch of "I want to do nothing and crap a reward for it" forum whiners are not the majority. Theres a simple reason why so much games these day are that way:

studios ruined by publishers, shareholders and investors people that have absolutely no clue about gaming!

Okay, you have absolutely no clue about gaming, or at the very least the business aspect of gaming.  That much is painfully clear.

"people that actually pay the bills" guess you are another wowaholoic? If you sub you pay your 15 $/month that simple.

Nope, can't stand WoW, in fact if you actually bothered to read, you'd look at my sig and see exactly what I've played and what I'm currently playing.  Sorry that's so difficult for you.

Like it not there wil be more old school games because some companies are starting to realize that World of Warcraft is the exclusion not the example. Vanguard would nowadays easily gather 200 - 400k +.

I couldn't care less if someone wants to make old school games, if you can convince a developer to make one, more power to you.  Have a good old time playing.  But sitting around on a forum whining about it isn't going to get you anything and acting like someone somehow owes you one of these games is laughable at best.

Until you can actually find someone who is actually funding an old school games, it remains wishful thinking.

So you don't like oldschool MMOs AND you don't like new ones either? If you don't like any MMORPGs why are you on a MMORPG forum? To lecture us about business?

 

Ofcourse there's a market for them, anyone would like them if they actually tried or even heard of them. How well a MMO does is mostly based on advertising/hype/popularity, along with polish and graphics, how can you not see that? Most things are like that now, music, movies, you name it.

 

I guarentee you if WoW was released as an oldschool game with the same hype, IP, polish, graphics it'd have as much subs as it has now(actually even more, because the oldschool MMOers and people with higher standards wouldn't have quit)

laokoko

Yes there is a market for old school gamers, as far as I know they still havn't closed down the servers for:  UO, EQ, SWG, DaOC and AC.

Lineage 1 is still big in asia.  I just came back from Taiwaness MMORPG forum.  Lineage 1 have 2000+ forum post yesterday.  That's the highest of all the MMORPG. 

Eronakis

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Harafnir

And the old games depended on community.

 Whether they want to accept it or not I personally think this is what the majority of old school gamers miss more than anything else from those days.

...and for better or worse those days are gone for good. 

Not neccessarily. There are going to be more and more niche games, and community-based MMOs are likely to be one of those niches.

I agree with MMOdoubter here. I don't think these days are gone for good. It's just the who will develop that title that our old school gamers crave? I for one, am trying tediously to. I really believe that you have to have a challenging game play with a serous tone to drive away the idiots. Vanguard for example was on the right path, however, the community was nominal. The old school games had a longer duration to obtain items and ranks ect. There needs to be one game for our niche that we can call home. I believe we need to strive for a community with a mature crowd. Of course there will always be idiots somewhere.