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Star Wars: The Old Republic: Bioware's Daniel Erickson: "No point" to Existing MMOs
MikeB
Community ManagerAdministrator RarePosts: 6,555
Speaking to CVG last week, Bioware's Daniel Erickson, Lead Writer on Star Wars: The Old Republic, discussed the poor track record of existing MMORPGs when it comes to really living up to those last three letters, declaring that early MMOs to current MMOs offer "no point" and possess a marked "lack of fun".
"In the early days when they first announced that there were MMOs, like the existence of them, I knew in my head what that meant - because I played Role Playing Games. It was just giant Role Playing Games.
"And then MMO [games] showed up, and it wasn't that. It was the ruleset to an RPG: There was combat, and there were areas, but that was all. Someone had left out the module. There was no story, there was no point. You just kind of wandered around. And that hasn't really changed all that much over the years.
"We've always had that thought in the back of our heads: That Old Republic should be all the things we thought an MMO would be in the first place - which is all the parts of an RPG. Which means - and this is the most radical idea - it should just be fun. Like, just fun to play. You shouldn't be trying to ignore all of the content to get to the end as fast as possible."
Things aren't completely bleak, however, as Daniel does note that a few of the more recent MMOs have been offering better content, albeit only in the early or "first 20" levels, though, at least to Daniel, it's still not up to snuff.
Daniel also doesn't believe that MMO creators originally sought out to create games that were just a grind, with no fun in them, it just happened to turn out that way, and we've been too strongly attached to the formula ever since. Bioware is intending to chalenge the status quo by injecting "interesting bits" into the MMO, something that could be considered "sacrilege" with the way the traditional limitations of MMOs tend to be upheld.
Read the full article over at CVG.
Do you think Daniel has a point? Do we guard the traditional limitations of MMOs too much? And you do agree that MMOs of past and present have eschewed fun for boring pointless grinds?
Going even further, even if you do agree with Daniel, do you feel Bioware's particular approach, namely adding storyline, is the right way to go to address the aforementioned issues?
Let us know in the comments below!
Comments
No Daniel.
You got it all wrong.
MMOs are not about pre written quests. Pre written storyes. And never changing pre set world.
They are not just single player RPGs that can be played with other players on internet.
There is a reason why original MMOs didnt have story - because it was your story -
The MMOs are blank slate in order for player to write their own story, and to mold the world , change it.
Colectively create the story line together.
But that is all lost. Thanks to guys like you.
They can be. But they should not always be.
I'm getting hungry, so forgive me if I change MMO -> Pizza for this conversation.
I like Pizza. In fact, cheese pizza is my favorite. Why? Well, it's plain. I can put whatever I want ontop of my cheese pizza. Sometimes, cheese pizza gets a little old after a while. And putting my own toppings ontop of the pizza I already paid for, well, that's just a waste sometimes.
SO.. my solution is somedays, I order a Pizza that already has toppings on it. Like mushroom and sausage. YUMMY!!!
Oh now wait.. I don't have a real pizza now do I? *Real* pizza is about me putting MY toppings on the pizza to make it what I want.. not what somebody else is trying to get me to eat..
But wait! There's more.. I ordered the pizza with stuff on it.. SO.. I got exactly what I asked for.. And it tastes pretty darn good too.
Kind of a stupid conversation about Pizza, don't you think??
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
They do not always HAVE to be, yes. Collectively creating the storyline together is a joke. Being a dynamic "build your own story" is the misinterpreted "holy grail" of MMOs. The idea that players create their own story is all in their head... literally, all in their head -- its imagined. They build their own story and pretend the world around them reacts to it. What "building your own story" always turns into though, is just an exhibition of fighting other players. Thus far changing the world is a static myth in most games.
Compound on that with other games that give you even less to look forward to in gameplay aspects, and nothing to follow and you end up with absolutely no purpose in an MMO other then some design features that get you to a locked door that you have to figure out how to open.
People hate to admit it, but "finding the fun" isn't always fun. Single player games don't pull any punches. They put you in something from the beginning, and in the very least they show you the way out, and you can choose to take that way or wander aimlessly. In an MMO world you either just wander aimlessly, or you stick to a path full of familiar decisions and similar faces.
Combining the strengths of both systems though, somehow becomes a curse more than a blessing, because suddenly, its not a combination, its only one or the other. For me, on the other hand, it shows me that BioWare knows all too well what this genre has turned into, and they have a solid plan on how to fix it.
I agree with Daniel 100%
We already have enough of shallow story MMO's on the market, if you dont like premade stories in mmo's, well then skip this one. I love Bioware games, and I think it's about time to get one MMO on market that will give proper story to follow and share with my friends. WITHOUT the wall of text im supose to care about..
MMO world without enough story is just plain boring to me.
mmorpg.com, the 4chan of mmo forums.
So in other words, write a story by committee? We've seen the result of that method in countless, pathetic Hollywood 'blockbusters' with their wretched storylines.
What you're really suggesting the 'virtual world simulator' model for MMORPGs where anyone can pick whatever they want to do and have absolute freedom to pursue any interest.
That kind of gameplay has it's appeal but that won't give a compelling story, that will give the Sims. That can be fun but basic limitations in technology and coding have prevented any truly limitless 'sandbox' MMORPGs from being successfully implemented, though that is changing as games like EVE Online continue to evolve.
But don't pretend that a sandbox 'virtual world simulator' game will ever have the dramatic impact or momentous moments that a well-written novel or movie or video game can have. Games like Mass Effect, Fallout, Oblivion, Never Winter Nights had *written* stories, not plots created by their players. That's because writing a truly compelling story is a *skill* and not one that is found by throwing a bunch of random people together on a server.
It's not the developer's fault, people want compelling stories and it's what is expected from the market now that MMORPG audience has expanded beyond hardcore, old-school players who have the time to waste 'making their own stories' which are little more than bad Mary-Sue fan-fics.
Daniel also doesn't believe that MMO creators originally sought out to create games that were just a grind, with no fun in them, it just happened to turn out that way, and we've been too strongly attached to the formula ever since. Bioware is intending to chalenge the status quo by injecting "interesting bits" into the MMO, something that could be considered "sacrilege" with the way the traditional limitations of MMOs tend to be upheld
This is where I disagree. MMORPGs started the monthly subscription model, the only way those unimaginative MMO creators could think make money was to keep their playerbase paying them every month. Thus the Grind was created.
Those old-school MMO creators knew damn well that the mechanic was tedious, timesink garbage, and they didn't care. They wanted their players coming back every month so they filled their game with it and dangled the carrots as bait to get people to slough through their trash timesinks.
Those MMO creators knew exactly what they were doing. The grind might have driven away the majority of gamers from MMORPG for more than a decade but it kept the hardcore types who were willing to pay every month for garbage. The grind worked exactly the way they wanted.
There have been signs of MMORPGs realizing this is a fundamental problem based on the history of the genre, Bioware is just taking another step in the evolution of that genre. Something that has been long overdue.
I agree with this. However, I am interested to see how much of a difference a good story can make. Seems awefully theme parkish to me. I usually prefer games like Fallout 3 where you can wander around and run into several different "stories" or just create your own. I have a pretty vivid imagination and often times I find myself making my own story even in games that already have a good one.
I liked KotOR, DA, and ME, but I could tell I was being led around, and while it was still fun, it wasn't very realistic or immersive. Wandering around in Oblivion and FO3, I really didn't care about my levels or upgrades, I was just having fun exploring everything and finding my own way in the world.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
So, which one class will you and your friends be playing?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It feels like:
"Hey ! Our MMO is not really a MMO but a single player game with a sub. Lets justify it by an attempt to change what MMORPG really is and no one will notice !"
Don't know where you got that from.... that wasn't even remotely what was said.
Well yeah, if it takes you 6+ months to eat a pizza!
One class? I'm under the impression the classes will have completely different story lines.
Unfortunatly I feel the same after reading this interview.
How boring a world would that be, having to create my own adventure, well thats me buggered then, I mean lets face it, most of us would be totally lost if we had to come up with a compelling storyline for us to follow within an open MMO, most of us would jsut end up sitting at some spawn point grinding exp, and thinking "Great isn't this fun, NOT"
I don't buy a game so that I have to make up the story as I go along, sure I like my freedom in a game and it's there by the bucket load, but in the same instance I would and need to have a guiding hand show me the right path to keep on, and if thats a real evoling story that helps define my character then I'm gonna welcome it with open arms and say "Thank heavens some developer had the guts to do it, rather than pander to the we must grind lvls to have fun crowd"
Thank goodness devs always say exactly what they mean.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I agree. If I wanted to write a story I would in real life and have it published to make money. I'm finding it difficult in the real world to forge a story of my own, and to do another in an artifical world would just do my head in.
We're also amazingly lucky that forum posters all have the comprehension abilities of college English majors. Its hard to believe anything gets misunderstood.
I definatly agree with a lot of the sentiment here. The problem that I have is that I have heard it all before. Every time a new game is in development there is an interview with a developer who talks about bringing the fun back, because it has been missing for years, and eliminating the tedious grind. I remember reading dev journals for Vanguard saying those exact things. Recently I remember hearing how fun and exciting the new AoC expansion would be, and how the faction grind certainly did not feel like any kind of real grind at all. Neither really lived up to the promises.
I would go as far as to say that any game that has Raiding does not get away from the grind. Run the same raid instance over and over again to get gear so you can run the new raid instance over and over again...
So we will see. AoC's expansion failed to get rid of the grind due to the implementation of the faction item costs. Vanguard failed for, many many reasons, lol. Both games are fun in many ways of course, but I would say nothing that was revolutionary or reinvented the wheel. So we will see if Bioware can crack the code and really bring innovation. Here is a hint... any system that requires you to get tokens for something is NOT a step in the right direction.
Sooner or later the story will run out. And with a single player game thats when you box it up and call it a day till the expansion comes out. With an MMO thats when you start PvPing or building a guild or raiding or crafting. Though all these things can be done sooner if you want.
Take Dragon Age Origins, I became king and defeated the evil dragon. Game over till the expansion which made 2 mentions of me being King. Was there a great deal more to that than say world of warcraft havinfg me kill 10 rats cause they are chewing up the guys farm. Seems unlikely.
Now even if ToR some how manages to weave multiple PCs with multiple choices in the preceeding story arcs together when grouping for a story where one person has killed the captain and one has spared him and they are about to meet his wife/widow and some how pulled it off. Come end game and trying to take the head off that Jedi in PvP is there going to be much of a link to that part of the story. Ultimately it will be about who is better, which class got nerfed hardest last patch and who has the best purple gear.
So Ultimately having a story in an MMO doesn't suddenly give it all meaning. The story will end and the MMO will continue, does it suddenly become pointless at that point. Surely MMO's are about community and having fun as much as about killing 10 rats for a very good indepth story reason.
Sure is. I blame the foreigners.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Yes but alot of subs end when the story content has ended and they are BORED of the non story content. They will then re-sub when an expansion comes out.
It really sounds as if what he is saying is that Bioware are tying to make an MMORPG that FEELS like the old pen&paper RPGs that we loved so much back then.
I for one am ALL FOR THAT.
But.....
There has to be enough sandbox content to give the players something to do when they feel like taking a break from the story, and/or when the story content is depleted.
From other interviews, it SEEMS like this is what they are trying to accomplish, and this is why the've managed to re-kindle my interest in TOR.
True. I can't recall the exact interview anymore, but they stated they wanted to have SW ToR to be a mix of themepark and sandbox elements. Added with that fourth pillar, story.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
If they do stop subbing after the story runs out then Bioware is going to have a hell of a time mainatining its 2 million subs to make a profit. 200 hours may seem like a lot but more often than not when games claim to have x number of hours its a safe bet any half aware player get through it in half that time.
Personaly, if I want a form of entertainment where the script is pre-written for me, then I'll go see a movie rather then play an MMO....the seats are more comfortable and they serve popcorn.
Mr Erickson has a point but he misses the Mark by a good 3 feet or so. It's not the "story", it's the "SETTING"...it's the world and the events unfolding in it. The real magic of the ORIGIONAL rpg's... the ones you played with funny looking dice.... is that they allowed the PLAYERS to be as imaginative and creative when playing the game as the creators of the game or the authors or module designers. That's where the real FUN was to be had.
That's what is missing in todays game and more generaly in todays A.D.D. (that's Attention Deficit Disorder not Advanced Dungeons and Dragons) entertainment world. The publishers try to spoon feed everything to thier audience leaving no room for imagination, creativity or even thought. It misses the core of what is actualy FUN in play. As adults it makes us lazy and stupid.... and it does even worse to our kids. I enjoy the visceral, button mashing fun of digitized blasters blowing things to pieces and the clash of lurid neon light sabres on a monitor as much as anyone. But there is alot to be said for a mind that can look at a simple wooden stick and IMAGINE a light sabre. That's a mind that in the real world can imagine how to build an engine that crosses the vast expanse of space or can figure out how to power entire cities on solar energy alone.
Too few of todays games allow us to excersize our imagination. We've lost more then we know, when we've lost that. Erickson is right that todays MMO's don't have much point to them....since nothing the player does ever makes a difference to the world.... but he's wrong in the solution to that problem. You don't foster imagination by writing a story for some-one else.....you foster it by handing them the tools to create thier own story...and maybe give them a little nudge to help get them started IF they need it.
So Dan, create a cool and interesting setting.... a universe with lots of hooks for drama.... and things constantly happening.... but then STEP BACK and let the players create thier own stories...... don't write the story for the player.... THAT is what leaves him with nothing left to do. Give us the props and the tools to create our own stories...and you've got a recipie for FUN.
Don't do that and your pretty much just writring a movie formated for a computer screen where the player gets to hit a key every once inawhile to keep the movie playing.