6. Has the game been released yet for people to know whether there is too much or too little?
7. Seriously, if I didnt know any better Id almost believe that the game was out.
8. Real gamers do not care about graphics.
9. WoW was blizzard's 1st mmo, and something I dont really know what, tells me that its pretty damn successful. Maybe its the 11 million subscribers.
10. Umm, didnt you hear the latest knews. Real life is a WoW clone. So in the great question of what came 1st, the chicken or the egg, the answer is simple. World of Warcraft.
Lol at #8 "real gamers". Fake gamers enjoy good graphics.
Man, if they only made an MMO using stick figures on a white background....I'm sooooo there!!!
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
6. Has the game been released yet for people to know whether there is too much or too little?
7. Seriously, if I didnt know any better Id almost believe that the game was out.
8. Real gamers do not care about graphics.
9. WoW was blizzard's 1st mmo, and something I dont really know what, tells me that its pretty damn successful. Maybe its the 11 million subscribers.
10. Umm, didnt you hear the latest knews. Real life is a WoW clone. So in the great question of what came 1st, the chicken or the egg, the answer is simple. World of Warcraft.
Lol at #8 "real gamers". Fake gamers enjoy good graphics.
Man, if they only made an MMO using stick figures on a white background....I'm sooooo there!!!
Try a MUD, you're lucky to be a red dot on grey line drawn in a black square.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I'm not in to it because it doesn't take place during the Galactic Civil War.
I think that's why I'm actually in to it. I never cared for the fan fic feeling for things taking place in that era, hence.
3k years prior, anything can really be happening. I think that's what made KOTOR interesting. It's far enough to be it's own time and we can have large force pvp battles and not seem way out of place.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
6. Has the game been released yet for people to know whether there is too much or too little?
7. Seriously, if I didnt know any better Id almost believe that the game was out.
8. Real gamers do not care about graphics.
9. WoW was blizzard's 1st mmo, and something I dont really know what, tells me that its pretty damn successful. Maybe its the 11 million subscribers.
10. Umm, didnt you hear the latest knews. Real life is a WoW clone. So in the great question of what came 1st, the chicken or the egg, the answer is simple. World of Warcraft.
Lol at #8 "real gamers". Fake gamers enjoy good graphics.
Man, if they only made an MMO using stick figures on a white background....I'm sooooo there!!!
Try a MUD, you're lucky to be a red dot on grey line drawn in a black square.
Nah, I've done that. I've got new SLi graphics cards now and I'm looking to really push them to the limit!
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I think the biggest problem with SW:TOR is that people are focusing too much on what it is not instead of what it is.
Maybe, but the bottom line is we are consumers and they are a business selling something. The majority of people know what they like and if they don't like what they've seen so far (and judging how much has been seen is irrelevant) or heard from the devs there's nothing wrong with voicing an opinion that they aren't interested in what direction the game is going at this point. Sure, there's no real reason for trying to fortell "doooooom" for it. But saying that what one has seen in developer interviews doesn't give much promise for the game being something one would purchase is buy no means out of bounds and certainly not grounds for the backlash that some on these forums go into because someone stated such.
I mean, I have a drinking buddy who is working on this title and I've told him that though I love him like a brother I'm not buying his game. He gets it, though, and understands that nowhere is it written that a person has to automatically give a game a try based on it's own merits. Especially not when there is a monetary exchange involved.
What is humerous though is the constant cries of SWG fanboys blasting the game's "apparent" lack of an open world, the plethora of sandbox fans lambasting the game's use of instances, and a large number of Star Wars fans crying foul over no space combat. When you start criticizing a game for what it "does not" have instead of how it implements what it "does" have, you need to take a step back and realize that the game is probably not developed with you in mind. The vast array of pre-release guilds, fansites, and official forum activity show that this game has a rabid fanbase that is quite interested in the game. The jaded, Guild Wars 2 loving, mmorpg.com community 's general distain for SW:TOR is not representative of the game's future success (or lack thereof), and I would venture to say, again, that SW:TOR is not a game made with the old school MMORPG fan in mind. Personally, I'm fine with that and have said many times that regardless of how this turns out, I have enough faith in Bioware and a strong enough love for Star Wars to purchase this on launch day instances or none, space combat or no space combat, subscription fee or no subscription fee, cash shop or no cash hop.
"Hating" a game you haven't played yet is retarded, no matter the reason.
In fact, come to think about it, "hating" a game is retarded. Like it or don't like it. Play it or don't play it. Convince yourself it's probably going to suck, if that's what steams your beans.
Hate is for things that have inflicted evil into your world -- shot your dog or talked smack about your mama, etc.
Otherwise, hating something is giving it waaaaaaay too much power over you. Spend less time/energy on it and more on things that are worthwhile.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
I think the biggest problem with SW:TOR is that people are focusing too much on what it is not instead of what it is.
Maybe, but the bottom line is we are consumers and they are a business selling something. The majority of people know what they like and if they don't like what they've seen so far (and judging how much has been seen is irrelevant) or heard from the devs there's nothing wrong with voicing an opinion that they aren't interested in what direction the game is going at this point. Sure, there's no real reason for trying to fortell "doooooom" for it. But saying that what one has seen in developer interviews doesn't give much promise for the game being something one would purchase is buy no means out of bounds and certainly not grounds for the backlash that some on these forums go into because someone stated such.
I mean, I have a drinking buddy who is working on this title and I've told him that though I love him like a brother I'm not buying his game. He gets it, though, and understands that nowhere is it written that a person has to automatically give a game a try based on it's own merits. Especially not when there is a monetary exchange involved.
What is humerous though is the constant cries of SWG fanboys blasting the game's "apparent" lack of an open world, the plethora of sandbox fans lambasting the game's use of instances, and a large number of Star Wars fans crying foul over no space combat. When you start criticizing a game for what it "does not" have instead of how it implements what it "does" have, you need to take a step back and realize that the game is probably not developed with you in mind. The vast array of pre-release guilds, fansites, and official forum activity show that this game has a rabid fanbase that is quite interested in the game. The jaded, Guild Wars 2 loving, mmorpg.com community 's general distain for SW:TOR is not representative of the game's future success (or lack thereof), and I would venture to say, again, that SW:TOR is not a game made with the old school MMORPG fan in mind. Personally, I'm fine with that and have said many times that regardless of how this turns out, I have enough faith in Bioware and a strong enough love for Star Wars to purchase this on launch day instances or none, space combat or no space combat, subscription fee or no subscription fee, cash shop or no cash hop.
That's cool. I feel the same way about World of Darkness Online with respect to I will purchase the title sight unseen at launch. I just have different expectations as far as what I want out of those two different IPs. As far as criticizing it for what it does not have, I have to stick with the other side. Those folks, for the most part, are not pleased about a mechanic that they enjoy not being incorporated. Nothing wrong with them voicing such, though one would hope it was in a respectful manner. As far as talking about how it implements what it does have, it could that they don't really care either way about those aspects or that they are happy with the direction they perceive Bioware is taking them.
I know I couldn't care less about voice overs and, while I am of the opinion Bioware's writers are really, really good, I just see their "story" aspect as more dialogue I'll have to listen/read. I don't really play MMOs to have a story told to me. That's what I play single player RPGs for.
Like I said before, of course these opinions expressed on forums aren't indicative of the game's possible success. That said, there's nothing wrong with those opinions being expressed. That's what these forums are for. If people could only express positive thoughts, well, then there'd be no forum members.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
"Hating" a game you haven't played yet is retarded, no matter the reason.
In fact, come to think about it, "hating" a game is retarded. Like it or don't like it. Play it or don't play it. Convince yourself it's probably going to suck, if that's what steams your beans.
Hate is for things that have inflicted evil into your world -- shot your dog or talked smack about your mama, etc.
Otherwise, hating something is giving it waaaaaaay too much power over you. Spend less time/energy on it and more on things that are worthwhile.
You sir, are a positive role-model.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
with #2 would you care to explain what it takes for a game to "do well." Also would you dissagree with the idea that 95% of MMO games released in the last 5 years are pure shit? Why or Why not will suffice.
with #2 would you care to explain what it takes for a game to "do well." Also would you dissagree with the idea that 95% of MMO games released in the last 5 years are pure shit? Why or Why not will suffice.
Why. Since that'll suffice.
TLDR.. I know, don't worry about it.
A lot of good ideas have came out over the last 5 years. Even some of the games have been okay. It's not their programming, or the hardware, or the producers. It's the community. Which isn't our fault, it's also the PR behind these products. They're hyped as WOW-Killers! They're the ULTIMATE MMO EXPERIENCE! Nothing like you've seen before. New interactive controls. Community TOOLS! That's right, lines of code that will help 'community'.
The genre has stagnated. If DDO or Champions or AION would have been released during year 4 of EQ, AC, & UO we'd have all collectively crapped our pants and died.
That wasn't the case. High level of polish, keen polling of the paying majority, and everyone pretty much dealing with disappointment by hopping around every few months from big title to big title.. Well that's our current state.
We're stuck in the 3rd generation of MMOs and honestly TOR, GW2, or whatever else doesn't really seem to be striving to pull us out of it. Maybe distract us more. I know it's frustrating, but maybe that's the nature of the beast? How MMORPGs are now is how they simply MUST be at the moment. It's not really a bad thing.
A subset question to ponder: What will made Madden NFL Football 2010 way better than say.. Madden' 95? Or Madden 2? The game LOOKS way different. Has cool customization. AI tweeks here and there. Expanded this and that. Still you hit a button, you fall back and hit another button to throw to a receiver who may or may not catch the ball according to their stats.
I have a sneaking suspicion World of Darkness and CCP's other MMO may give players that bit of structure and a bit more freeform society we're looking for.
MMOs went from fancy chat rooms where everyone killed weird polygon shaped things and gained xp. To doing that while aspiring for a tier of collectibles. To adding in quests and letting people be a part of the story. I think the way to grow will come POST Guild Wars 2 and the world events and people will respond to being able to change things.
We'll get that next evolutionary jump. Until then, because something is similar doesn't mean it's crap. You may not want to play it, and by all means don't. But MMORPGs are were they're at because of the community, not any one developer's decision.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
with #2 would you care to explain what it takes for a game to "do well." Also would you dissagree with the idea that 95% of MMO games released in the last 5 years are pure shit? Why or Why not will suffice.
Why. Since that'll suffice.
TLDR.. I know, don't worry about it.
A lot of good ideas have came out over the last 5 years. Even some of the games have been okay. It's not their programming, or the hardware, or the producers. It's the community. Which isn't our fault, it's also the PR behind these products. They're hyped as WOW-Killers! They're the ULTIMATE MMO EXPERIENCE! Nothing like you've seen before. New interactive controls. Community TOOLS! That's right, lines of code that will help 'community'.
The genre has stagnated. If DDO or Champions or AION would have been released during year 4 of EQ, AC, & UO we'd have all collectively crapped our pants and died.
That wasn't the case. High level of polish, keen polling of the paying majority, and everyone pretty much dealing with disappointment by hopping around every few months from big title to big title.. Well that's our current state.
We're stuck in the 3rd generation of MMOs and honestly TOR, GW2, or whatever else doesn't really seem to be striving to pull us out of it. Maybe distract us more. I know it's frustrating, but maybe that's the nature of the beast? How MMORPGs are now is how they simply MUST be at the moment. It's not really a bad thing.
A subset question to ponder: What will made Madden NFL Football 2010 way better than say.. Madden' 95? Or Madden 2? The game LOOKS way different. Has cool customization. AI tweeks here and there. Expanded this and that. Still you hit a button, you fall back and hit another button to throw to a receiver who may or may not catch the ball according to their stats.
I have a sneaking suspicion World of Darkness and CCP's other MMO may give players that bit of structure and a bit more freeform society we're looking for.
MMOs went from fancy chat rooms where everyone killed weird polygon shaped things and gained xp. To doing that while aspiring for a tier of collectibles. To adding in quests and letting people be a part of the story. I think the way to grow will come POST Guild Wars 2 and the world events and people will respond to being able to change things.
We'll get that next evolutionary jump. Until then, because something is similar doesn't mean it's crap. You may not want to play it, and by all means don't. But MMORPGs are were they're at because of the community, not any one developer's decision.
thats was probably one of the greatest posts ive seen on this site in the 6 or so years ive frequented here
Nice list but one of the best reasons ot like this game is because it will not be a WoW clone. How many times have we seen on the forums people complain about every mmo being a WoW clone. This does not hold true for The Old Republic and thank the mmo gods for that.
Nice list but one of the best reasons ot like this game is because it will not be a WoW clone. How many times have we seen on the forums people complain about every mmo being a WoW clone. This does not hold true for The Old Republic and thank the mmo gods for that.
Ah, a victim of hype..
I'll be there when you hit the ground, don't worry.
Also, that list is like 'bias' condensed into a single list. You might be able to cut it with a knife even.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
After doing some research in other threads, I found out why people REALLY hate SWTOR. (To me it just seems ludacris)
1. It’s popular and it’s a mainstream title.
2. Because everyone on this forum hate’s all games that may do well.
3. The game is to, “instanced”.
4. It’s too much like a single player RPG.
5. Bioware is backed by EA.
6. Too much voice over and cinematic graphics.
7. The combat is too fast paced for an MMO.
8. The graphics are too, “cartoony”.
9. Bioware has never made an MMO they should stick to single player games.
10. It’s a WoW clone in space. (Gotta love the term, every game released post WoW has been dubbed, “WoW Clone”)
And there ya have it! So all of us following SWTOR need to suck it up and move o to the next big WoW clone ;-)
My Blog following SWTOR. No i'm not a fanboi, my motive is much more sinister.: http://swtormmo.org/?p=47
Most of us actually hate SWTOR due to its complete lack of cheese. I've scoured all the interviews and press releases about this game and not once do they mention cheese.This leads me to the conclusion that there will be no cheese at all in Star Wars The Old Republic because the voice acting costs used up all the budget that could have better been spent on adding cheese. Cheese lovers should avoid this game at all costs. So should everyone else as MMORPGs without cheese involved are made of fail.
The one and only truth about the MMORPG genre is it never fails to disappoint. Of course whether this state of disappointment is caused by the game makers or game fans is very debatable. Also I'm not sure how you trolling trolls will have any positive effect on how people feel about this game. I can only hope that my trolling of your trolling of the trolls, will cause a rift in the space time continuum that will either make all of the negative comments positive for a change. Or failing that will just destroy the universe as we know it so none of this drivel matters in the slightest.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
Nice list but one of the best reasons ot like this game is because it will not be a WoW clone. How many times have we seen on the forums people complain about every mmo being a WoW clone. This does not hold true for The Old Republic and thank the mmo gods for that.
What are you basing that claim on?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I don't like it for a simple reason - I don't like the design philosophy behind it.
Dunno, maybe I'm to old but this emphasis on "heroism" is utterly meh and lame to me. Frankly I'm tired of games that make you a "hero" whether you like it or not. Furthermore nowadays, since the games have gone mainstream and got polluted by the entertainment industry (I'm looking at you Hollywood), it seems that this "heroism" paradigm has been pushed as the only one... Like the whole point of playing games is so you can play-pretend you're a hero, which is quite simply not true. The medium of computer games is much wider in scope than what those brain-washers would want us to believe.
On the other hand, this might be a viable way of designing a game considering the nature of the IP which has always been about "heroism" and aimed at adolescent male complexes. I've passed that stage of my development quite a long time ago, thank you, so I really don't need to be patted on the head "you hero you" by a piece of software.
But then again, there's nothing wrong with occasionally letting the kid in you have a run... however even when I was a kid I never thought that this hero business is the end-all of all that life has to offer. Conversely I don't see SWToR as offering anything else besides this empty video game "heroism". Some other games on the horizon also feature this paradigm but they offer other things alongside, stuff which might be as important and maybe even more so but which are obviously not even perceived by the myopic vision of the design team.
In short, I'll pass.
(If any are wondering what am I exactly on about...
"Vogel is on record saying that he didn't want it in at first (crafting) but that a dev told him he had an idea for it. Vogel said cool, but that he just didn't want crafting getting in the way of characters/players "being heroic".
Nice list but one of the best reasons ot like this game is because it will not be a WoW clone. How many times have we seen on the forums people complain about every mmo being a WoW clone. This does not hold true for The Old Republic and thank the mmo gods for that.
What are you basing that claim on?
It's not made by Blizzard? There aren't blue skinned player races called Scro? There's no such thing as WoW clones, they're called MMOs. All of them are MMORPGs. Your minds blown? If not, then please read a book.
I recommend "Around the World in 80 Days" Verne did a great job in writing a Jane Eyre-clone. You know, in printing words on paper.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
It's not made by Blizzard? There aren't blue skinned player races called Scro? There's no such thing as WoW clones, they're called MMOs. All of them are MMORPGs. Your minds blown? If not, then please read a book.
I recommend "Around the World in 80 Days" Verne did a great job in writing a Jane Eyre-clone. You know, in printing words on paper.
You can deny it all you want, doesn't make it any less apparent..
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
with #2 would you care to explain what it takes for a game to "do well." Also would you dissagree with the idea that 95% of MMO games released in the last 5 years are pure shit? Why or Why not will suffice.
Why. Since that'll suffice.
TLDR.. I know, don't worry about it.
A lot of good ideas have came out over the last 5 years. Even some of the games have been okay. It's not their programming, or the hardware, or the producers. It's the community. Which isn't our fault, it's also the PR behind these products. They're hyped as WOW-Killers! They're the ULTIMATE MMO EXPERIENCE! Nothing like you've seen before. New interactive controls. Community TOOLS! That's right, lines of code that will help 'community'.
The genre has stagnated. If DDO or Champions or AION would have been released during year 4 of EQ, AC, & UO we'd have all collectively crapped our pants and died.
That wasn't the case. High level of polish, keen polling of the paying majority, and everyone pretty much dealing with disappointment by hopping around every few months from big title to big title.. Well that's our current state.
We're stuck in the 3rd generation of MMOs and honestly TOR, GW2, or whatever else doesn't really seem to be striving to pull us out of it. Maybe distract us more. I know it's frustrating, but maybe that's the nature of the beast? How MMORPGs are now is how they simply MUST be at the moment. It's not really a bad thing.
A subset question to ponder: What will made Madden NFL Football 2010 way better than say.. Madden' 95? Or Madden 2? The game LOOKS way different. Has cool customization. AI tweeks here and there. Expanded this and that. Still you hit a button, you fall back and hit another button to throw to a receiver who may or may not catch the ball according to their stats.
I have a sneaking suspicion World of Darkness and CCP's other MMO may give players that bit of structure and a bit more freeform society we're looking for.
MMOs went from fancy chat rooms where everyone killed weird polygon shaped things and gained xp. To doing that while aspiring for a tier of collectibles. To adding in quests and letting people be a part of the story. I think the way to grow will come POST Guild Wars 2 and the world events and people will respond to being able to change things.
We'll get that next evolutionary jump. Until then, because something is similar doesn't mean it's crap. You may not want to play it, and by all means don't. But MMORPGs are were they're at because of the community, not any one developer's decision.
I don't disagree that a lot of good ideas have come out in the last 5 years. Just about every game has a good idea implemented into it. But no one wants to move into the same house with different wallpaper. No idea why...maybe its just stupid and a waste of money.
And thats why i think it has obviously yes gone stagnet no disagreement their either. Infact im going to agree with just about everything you said cause you're right. Even to the point of us eventually getting to that evolutionary jump because it has to happen sometime. Heres to hoping at least.
However guild wars doesnt belong in there due to the fact its not p2p so that game can do whatever it wants. No one is paying a monthly fee. It doesn't have to pull any weight for the genre because its in a league of its own. I can't justify anything for TOR because i havn't played it but i will settle for "distractions" in your point because it makes sense as of this day and age.
The only thing im going to disagree with truly is that MMORPG's are the way they are because of the community. Sure some like and most hate and some hate and most like. But the community isnt pushing these games out the door and the community isnt a democracy where we get to vote on the best course of action.
It just truly appears that all this crap being pumped out is being made around an outdated buisness model supposed to pump out boatloads of cash. Devs and investors alike are standing around it scratching their heads kicking the damn thing going "I don't know whats wrong with it" but really what is happening is they are saying "Well at least we broke even." Each shitty game is either a kick of misunderstanding or a kick by lack of caring.
The community steers games obviously we are the fuel keeping the engine running. And if i knew anything about engines id have another cheesy metaphor to explain how this one is clogged with sludge and needs to be replaced.
It just truly appears that all this crap being pumped out is being made around an outdated buisness model supposed to pump out boatloads of cash. Devs and investors alike are standing around it scratching their heads kicking the damn thing going "I don't know whats wrong with it" but really what is happening is they are saying "Well at least we broke even." Each shitty game is either a kick of misunderstanding or a kick by lack of caring.
The community steers games obviously we are the fuel keeping the engine running. And if i knew anything about engines id have another cheesy metaphor to explain how this one is clogged with sludge and needs to be replaced.
Well Rush Limbaugh would tell you that without Capitalism and people voting with their dollars the world would end in communism and homosexuality (for whatever reason).
People can vote with their feet. When something is truly bad it goes away; Tabsula Rasa, that one racing game by Sony, Wham!. The fact of the matter is the majority of people have fun playing WoW, that's because a lot of people like MMOs. People saying "WoW-like" prove to me that they're not fit for human-breeding. Because WoW-like = an MMORPG.
The next 2 goals for MMOs to truly make vets looking for that old feeling again will be (I wish someone from EA, Sony, or whatever actually read things like this) dynamic player created content & whatever needs to come from the 'class / skill / progression system'. I'm not being paid to figure how either should look out, so I don't do much more than fancy a day dream here or there of what an ideal MMO would be like for me personally.
I picked Guild Wars 2 simply because it has a laundry list of ideas that'll probably be about 33% of what each of us expect it to be. Which would be ideal considering how they communicate things it gives those of us familiar with the mechanics of games the freedom to 'envision' and 'assume'.
I'll share this.. Champions Online was going to be MY game. It had graphics I liked, a setting I liked, and a lot of ideas I liked. I expected great customization (and the game did deliver) and the notion of a NEMESIS that I created and had interferring with my heroic deeds here and there was drool-inducing. But, in actual implementation (I was there in alpha and saw some cool things come and go that didn't make it to the live game for whatever reason) it was just window dressing on things we've seen from MMORPGs before. What I would have done is had all of the scripted mission stuff that we're used to, but I'd have designed a lil' oval gear sort of system that would have had my villain showing up at the times LEAST expected to throw in a little extra challenge here and there.
I got excited at the thought of being in a 5 man group mindlessly pulling and clearing out an area to get ready for a boss fight when all of a sudden someone's villain appeared and eveyone had to scramble to fight a challenging encounter. Then if that caused a wipe the fury between players would have been something to note. Sure you'd blame that guy, it was his villain! He wanted the party to die before they got to the epic loots.. Of course not, then when you're in bed later and you thought about it.. You'd smile remembering a wipe in a game. Then you'd message that guy, apologize like a man, and be all.. "It was actually kind of cool being attacked like that. Guess we'll have to consider the random stuff next time."
There's a lot of little things that can be changed in the current MMORPG market if players only knew how to articulate what s desired.
We're not so lucky. We got MMO Doubter and that illk going around calling things WoW-clones. Which to $investors$ sounds a lot more appealing than to people hating on the Beatles of MMORPGs.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I think the biggest problem with SW:TOR is that people are focusing too much on what it is not instead of what it is.
Yeah. Some people have a negative personality. It is a pity MMORPG has so many. Always bashing games. *sigh*
People should make up their own opinion based on experiencing things. May they bash and hate. I look at the game when its there and make my opinion then, based on the experience not on the expectation what others say it will be.
I think the biggest problem with SW:TOR is that people are focusing too much on what it is not instead of what it is.
Maybe, but the bottom line is we are consumers and they are a business selling something. The majority of people know what they like and if they don't like what they've seen so far (and judging how much has been seen is irrelevant) or heard from the devs there's nothing wrong with voicing an opinion that they aren't interested in what direction the game is going at this point. Sure, there's no real reason for trying to fortell "doooooom" for it. But saying that what one has seen in developer interviews doesn't give much promise for the game being something one would purchase is buy no means out of bounds and certainly not grounds for the backlash that some on these forums go into because someone stated such.
I mean, I have a drinking buddy who is working on this title and I've told him that though I love him like a brother I'm not buying his game. He gets it, though, and understands that nowhere is it written that a person has to automatically give a game a try based on it's own merits. Especially not when there is a monetary exchange involved.
Opinions are opinions, my friend. But false information and idiotic presentation is trolling. Trolls do not deserve opinions.
PS I meant the combination of false info and idiotic presentation. I am known for certain cases of idiotic presentation.
I'm not speaking of the people that make up things and then state them. I'm more talking about folks that read an interview and based on things said in the interview voice that they don't find that dev's information on the game palatable enough to merit a $50-$60 box sale.
Take my personal "gripe" (not really a gripe as I'm not upset or angry) of crafting. Vogel is on record saying that he didn't want it in at first but that a dev told him he had an idea for it. Vogel said cool, but that he just didn't want crafting getting in the way of characters/players "being heroic". Now, to me, that sounds like they have little intention of creating a robust, deep crafting system. No way to actually know until we see it, but the context clues so far point to it being so.
That's a turn off to me personally so at this point I'm not buying it. Now, if that were to 180 and we come to find that the crafting system is indded just as robust as "that other game I can't mention because my asbestos suit is at the cleaners", then yeah, I'd give it a try. But I'm not going to commit to even trying the game when I know that a game mechanic that I'm most interested in is currently being viewed by the developers as it is. Again, future interviews could change my mind, but I'm not holding my breath.
MMOs are changing to accessible, casual, combat heavy, item mall games which means this old dice roller who got in in 1997 is going to have to go back to table-top gaming. Which isn't a bad thing, mind you. Sure, I'd like there to be games out there for me, but with the current MMO design trends that isn't happening. I'd hate to give up MMO gaming, but I'm not going to spend money on something I know won't interest me. I don't have to get "foot-on" experience of a kick to the groin to know I wouildn't enjoy it. The same goes for when a developer talks about what they are doing with a game. I know what sounds enjoyable for me and what doesn't. And saying so doesn't make me a hater. Just makes me a person expressing an opinion.
First the mere fact that Richard Vogel is a part of this project gives me great hope for its success. I have, apparently, been following him from game to game for years now lol (having started with my first 2 mmo betas SIerra's The Realm and Meridian 59) then to Ultima Online which was the first one I actually subscribed to and then onto SWG of which he was in charge of development when Koster was promoted out of the loop.
I am not sure if you experienced crafting in SWG but after developing that system I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to code or manage the coding over a real crafting system ever again lol. In order for crafting to truly be indepth (this is a personal opinion so take it for what you will) then the players involved need to have a certain level of investiture. World of Warcraft gives everyone 2 crafting or gathering or combination thereof sub classes and apart from gems/glyphs/chants and alchemy the rest are pretty much worthless, and with the time alotment required to craft its appropriate. In SWG the BEST items in game were player crafted, but those players also pretty much devoted 70%-100% of their time doing nothing but crafting. SWG's system actually encouraged the playerdriven economy because that awesome weaponsmith isn't able to go out and tend to all of his harvesters so people like me were hired on to guard the crafter(s) on their trips out to gather up their resources.
I say if they can't do it "right" they shouldn't bother. With that said til we know more I will resolve my judgement
Comments
Man, if they only made an MMO using stick figures on a white background....I'm sooooo there!!!
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I'm not in to it because it doesn't take place during the Galactic Civil War.
Try a MUD, you're lucky to be a red dot on grey line drawn in a black square.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I think that's why I'm actually in to it. I never cared for the fan fic feeling for things taking place in that era, hence.
3k years prior, anything can really be happening. I think that's what made KOTOR interesting. It's far enough to be it's own time and we can have large force pvp battles and not seem way out of place.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I think the 10 reasons people hate SW:TOR named above can just about describe every game out there and all the future games in developement.
Nah, I've done that. I've got new SLi graphics cards now and I'm looking to really push them to the limit!
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
What is humerous though is the constant cries of SWG fanboys blasting the game's "apparent" lack of an open world, the plethora of sandbox fans lambasting the game's use of instances, and a large number of Star Wars fans crying foul over no space combat. When you start criticizing a game for what it "does not" have instead of how it implements what it "does" have, you need to take a step back and realize that the game is probably not developed with you in mind. The vast array of pre-release guilds, fansites, and official forum activity show that this game has a rabid fanbase that is quite interested in the game. The jaded, Guild Wars 2 loving, mmorpg.com community 's general distain for SW:TOR is not representative of the game's future success (or lack thereof), and I would venture to say, again, that SW:TOR is not a game made with the old school MMORPG fan in mind. Personally, I'm fine with that and have said many times that regardless of how this turns out, I have enough faith in Bioware and a strong enough love for Star Wars to purchase this on launch day instances or none, space combat or no space combat, subscription fee or no subscription fee, cash shop or no cash hop.
"Hating" a game you haven't played yet is retarded, no matter the reason.
In fact, come to think about it, "hating" a game is retarded. Like it or don't like it. Play it or don't play it. Convince yourself it's probably going to suck, if that's what steams your beans.
Hate is for things that have inflicted evil into your world -- shot your dog or talked smack about your mama, etc.
Otherwise, hating something is giving it waaaaaaay too much power over you. Spend less time/energy on it and more on things that are worthwhile.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
That's cool. I feel the same way about World of Darkness Online with respect to I will purchase the title sight unseen at launch. I just have different expectations as far as what I want out of those two different IPs. As far as criticizing it for what it does not have, I have to stick with the other side. Those folks, for the most part, are not pleased about a mechanic that they enjoy not being incorporated. Nothing wrong with them voicing such, though one would hope it was in a respectful manner. As far as talking about how it implements what it does have, it could that they don't really care either way about those aspects or that they are happy with the direction they perceive Bioware is taking them.
I know I couldn't care less about voice overs and, while I am of the opinion Bioware's writers are really, really good, I just see their "story" aspect as more dialogue I'll have to listen/read. I don't really play MMOs to have a story told to me. That's what I play single player RPGs for.
Like I said before, of course these opinions expressed on forums aren't indicative of the game's possible success. That said, there's nothing wrong with those opinions being expressed. That's what these forums are for. If people could only express positive thoughts, well, then there'd be no forum members.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
You sir, are a positive role-model.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
with #2 would you care to explain what it takes for a game to "do well." Also would you dissagree with the idea that 95% of MMO games released in the last 5 years are pure shit? Why or Why not will suffice.
Why. Since that'll suffice.
TLDR.. I know, don't worry about it.
A lot of good ideas have came out over the last 5 years. Even some of the games have been okay. It's not their programming, or the hardware, or the producers. It's the community. Which isn't our fault, it's also the PR behind these products. They're hyped as WOW-Killers! They're the ULTIMATE MMO EXPERIENCE! Nothing like you've seen before. New interactive controls. Community TOOLS! That's right, lines of code that will help 'community'.
The genre has stagnated. If DDO or Champions or AION would have been released during year 4 of EQ, AC, & UO we'd have all collectively crapped our pants and died.
That wasn't the case. High level of polish, keen polling of the paying majority, and everyone pretty much dealing with disappointment by hopping around every few months from big title to big title.. Well that's our current state.
We're stuck in the 3rd generation of MMOs and honestly TOR, GW2, or whatever else doesn't really seem to be striving to pull us out of it. Maybe distract us more. I know it's frustrating, but maybe that's the nature of the beast? How MMORPGs are now is how they simply MUST be at the moment. It's not really a bad thing.
A subset question to ponder: What will made Madden NFL Football 2010 way better than say.. Madden' 95? Or Madden 2? The game LOOKS way different. Has cool customization. AI tweeks here and there. Expanded this and that. Still you hit a button, you fall back and hit another button to throw to a receiver who may or may not catch the ball according to their stats.
I have a sneaking suspicion World of Darkness and CCP's other MMO may give players that bit of structure and a bit more freeform society we're looking for.
MMOs went from fancy chat rooms where everyone killed weird polygon shaped things and gained xp. To doing that while aspiring for a tier of collectibles. To adding in quests and letting people be a part of the story. I think the way to grow will come POST Guild Wars 2 and the world events and people will respond to being able to change things.
We'll get that next evolutionary jump. Until then, because something is similar doesn't mean it's crap. You may not want to play it, and by all means don't. But MMORPGs are were they're at because of the community, not any one developer's decision.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
thats was probably one of the greatest posts ive seen on this site in the 6 or so years ive frequented here
Nice list but one of the best reasons ot like this game is because it will not be a WoW clone. How many times have we seen on the forums people complain about every mmo being a WoW clone. This does not hold true for The Old Republic and thank the mmo gods for that.
Ah, a victim of hype..
I'll be there when you hit the ground, don't worry.
Also, that list is like 'bias' condensed into a single list. You might be able to cut it with a knife even.
Most of us actually hate SWTOR due to its complete lack of cheese. I've scoured all the interviews and press releases about this game and not once do they mention cheese.This leads me to the conclusion that there will be no cheese at all in Star Wars The Old Republic because the voice acting costs used up all the budget that could have better been spent on adding cheese. Cheese lovers should avoid this game at all costs. So should everyone else as MMORPGs without cheese involved are made of fail.
The one and only truth about the MMORPG genre is it never fails to disappoint. Of course whether this state of disappointment is caused by the game makers or game fans is very debatable. Also I'm not sure how you trolling trolls will have any positive effect on how people feel about this game. I can only hope that my trolling of your trolling of the trolls, will cause a rift in the space time continuum that will either make all of the negative comments positive for a change. Or failing that will just destroy the universe as we know it so none of this drivel matters in the slightest.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
That is because we don't know what it is.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
What are you basing that claim on?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I don't like it for a simple reason - I don't like the design philosophy behind it.
Dunno, maybe I'm to old but this emphasis on "heroism" is utterly meh and lame to me. Frankly I'm tired of games that make you a "hero" whether you like it or not. Furthermore nowadays, since the games have gone mainstream and got polluted by the entertainment industry (I'm looking at you Hollywood), it seems that this "heroism" paradigm has been pushed as the only one... Like the whole point of playing games is so you can play-pretend you're a hero, which is quite simply not true. The medium of computer games is much wider in scope than what those brain-washers would want us to believe.
On the other hand, this might be a viable way of designing a game considering the nature of the IP which has always been about "heroism" and aimed at adolescent male complexes. I've passed that stage of my development quite a long time ago, thank you, so I really don't need to be patted on the head "you hero you" by a piece of software.
But then again, there's nothing wrong with occasionally letting the kid in you have a run... however even when I was a kid I never thought that this hero business is the end-all of all that life has to offer. Conversely I don't see SWToR as offering anything else besides this empty video game "heroism". Some other games on the horizon also feature this paradigm but they offer other things alongside, stuff which might be as important and maybe even more so but which are obviously not even perceived by the myopic vision of the design team.
In short, I'll pass.
(If any are wondering what am I exactly on about...
"Vogel is on record saying that he didn't want it in at first (crafting) but that a dev told him he had an idea for it. Vogel said cool, but that he just didn't want crafting getting in the way of characters/players "being heroic".
is just one example.)
It's not made by Blizzard? There aren't blue skinned player races called Scro? There's no such thing as WoW clones, they're called MMOs. All of them are MMORPGs. Your minds blown? If not, then please read a book.
I recommend "Around the World in 80 Days" Verne did a great job in writing a Jane Eyre-clone. You know, in printing words on paper.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
You can deny it all you want, doesn't make it any less apparent..
I don't disagree that a lot of good ideas have come out in the last 5 years. Just about every game has a good idea implemented into it. But no one wants to move into the same house with different wallpaper. No idea why...maybe its just stupid and a waste of money.
And thats why i think it has obviously yes gone stagnet no disagreement their either. Infact im going to agree with just about everything you said cause you're right. Even to the point of us eventually getting to that evolutionary jump because it has to happen sometime. Heres to hoping at least.
However guild wars doesnt belong in there due to the fact its not p2p so that game can do whatever it wants. No one is paying a monthly fee. It doesn't have to pull any weight for the genre because its in a league of its own. I can't justify anything for TOR because i havn't played it but i will settle for "distractions" in your point because it makes sense as of this day and age.
The only thing im going to disagree with truly is that MMORPG's are the way they are because of the community. Sure some like and most hate and some hate and most like. But the community isnt pushing these games out the door and the community isnt a democracy where we get to vote on the best course of action.
It just truly appears that all this crap being pumped out is being made around an outdated buisness model supposed to pump out boatloads of cash. Devs and investors alike are standing around it scratching their heads kicking the damn thing going "I don't know whats wrong with it" but really what is happening is they are saying "Well at least we broke even." Each shitty game is either a kick of misunderstanding or a kick by lack of caring.
The community steers games obviously we are the fuel keeping the engine running. And if i knew anything about engines id have another cheesy metaphor to explain how this one is clogged with sludge and needs to be replaced.
Well Rush Limbaugh would tell you that without Capitalism and people voting with their dollars the world would end in communism and homosexuality (for whatever reason).
People can vote with their feet. When something is truly bad it goes away; Tabsula Rasa, that one racing game by Sony, Wham!. The fact of the matter is the majority of people have fun playing WoW, that's because a lot of people like MMOs. People saying "WoW-like" prove to me that they're not fit for human-breeding. Because WoW-like = an MMORPG.
The next 2 goals for MMOs to truly make vets looking for that old feeling again will be (I wish someone from EA, Sony, or whatever actually read things like this) dynamic player created content & whatever needs to come from the 'class / skill / progression system'. I'm not being paid to figure how either should look out, so I don't do much more than fancy a day dream here or there of what an ideal MMO would be like for me personally.
I picked Guild Wars 2 simply because it has a laundry list of ideas that'll probably be about 33% of what each of us expect it to be. Which would be ideal considering how they communicate things it gives those of us familiar with the mechanics of games the freedom to 'envision' and 'assume'.
I'll share this.. Champions Online was going to be MY game. It had graphics I liked, a setting I liked, and a lot of ideas I liked. I expected great customization (and the game did deliver) and the notion of a NEMESIS that I created and had interferring with my heroic deeds here and there was drool-inducing. But, in actual implementation (I was there in alpha and saw some cool things come and go that didn't make it to the live game for whatever reason) it was just window dressing on things we've seen from MMORPGs before. What I would have done is had all of the scripted mission stuff that we're used to, but I'd have designed a lil' oval gear sort of system that would have had my villain showing up at the times LEAST expected to throw in a little extra challenge here and there.
I got excited at the thought of being in a 5 man group mindlessly pulling and clearing out an area to get ready for a boss fight when all of a sudden someone's villain appeared and eveyone had to scramble to fight a challenging encounter. Then if that caused a wipe the fury between players would have been something to note. Sure you'd blame that guy, it was his villain! He wanted the party to die before they got to the epic loots.. Of course not, then when you're in bed later and you thought about it.. You'd smile remembering a wipe in a game. Then you'd message that guy, apologize like a man, and be all.. "It was actually kind of cool being attacked like that. Guess we'll have to consider the random stuff next time."
There's a lot of little things that can be changed in the current MMORPG market if players only knew how to articulate what s desired.
We're not so lucky. We got MMO Doubter and that illk going around calling things WoW-clones. Which to $investors$ sounds a lot more appealing than to people hating on the Beatles of MMORPGs.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Yeah. Some people have a negative personality. It is a pity MMORPG has so many. Always bashing games. *sigh*
People should make up their own opinion based on experiencing things. May they bash and hate. I look at the game when its there and make my opinion then, based on the experience not on the expectation what others say it will be.
First the mere fact that Richard Vogel is a part of this project gives me great hope for its success. I have, apparently, been following him from game to game for years now lol (having started with my first 2 mmo betas SIerra's The Realm and Meridian 59) then to Ultima Online which was the first one I actually subscribed to and then onto SWG of which he was in charge of development when Koster was promoted out of the loop.
I am not sure if you experienced crafting in SWG but after developing that system I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to code or manage the coding over a real crafting system ever again lol. In order for crafting to truly be indepth (this is a personal opinion so take it for what you will) then the players involved need to have a certain level of investiture. World of Warcraft gives everyone 2 crafting or gathering or combination thereof sub classes and apart from gems/glyphs/chants and alchemy the rest are pretty much worthless, and with the time alotment required to craft its appropriate. In SWG the BEST items in game were player crafted, but those players also pretty much devoted 70%-100% of their time doing nothing but crafting. SWG's system actually encouraged the playerdriven economy because that awesome weaponsmith isn't able to go out and tend to all of his harvesters so people like me were hired on to guard the crafter(s) on their trips out to gather up their resources.
I say if they can't do it "right" they shouldn't bother. With that said til we know more I will resolve my judgement
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012