Ozzallous – Reading is not hard, so please read. I never questioned the chart only goes to 2008, what I am pointing out is it shows ZERO subs at the start of 2008. That is just nonsense, yes I could check it out myself, but I am pointing out here that when you present evidence it is a good idea to look at it and see if it makes sense. Do you really think no one was playing the game in 2008?
Using ‘guestimation’ I can only tell you that on Laurelin we have had between 2000 and 5000 people since launch, that’s just one server and certainly not ZERO subs.
Yes I admit that chart was totaly useless. 2008 is 2 years old. I have to question everthing about it. I never heard of this website untili saw it in this article.
Ozzallous – Reading is not hard, so please read. I never questioned the chart only goes to 2008, what I am pointing out is it shows ZERO subs at the start of 2008. That is just nonsense, yes I could check it out myself, but I am pointing out here that when you present evidence it is a good idea to look at it and see if it makes sense. Do you really think no one was playing the game in 2008?
Using ‘guestimation’ I can only tell you that on Laurelin we have had between 2000 and 5000 people since launch, that’s just one server and certainly not ZERO subs.
It doesn't show 0 subs actually. It stops at 150k in 2008. Maybe you are mistaking it for the sims online since both are yellow.
Hey fair point. So the graph only shows that Lotro had a dip in numbers going into 2008, which does not explain why it goes F2P in 2010. Looking at the graph the other yellow line extends back too far to be Lotro, thanks for clearing that up.
Yeah DDO would like to explain how wrong you are on that. From Turbines point of view it was a stroke of genius. They took a money losing game and made it popular enough that its now a plus for them.
Ok, how about "It's a bad sign when a AAA MMO that isn't on life support, goes free to play"?
Not really certain how you can be so certain that LoTRO wasn't nearly on life support. If despite the expansions there is no upsurge in subs, and in fact maybe even a decline in players, then it makes perfect sense for Turbine to take the MMO into the F2P market. PLayers are less likely to stop playing so you just need a decent cash shop model to keep the game moving forward. Given that next generation mmorpg are on the horizon for end of this year/start of the next one then an older game like LoTRO with few subs must have seemed to be a poor prospect in the subscription mmo market.
I'm sorry, but people saying Turbine won't be making money are retarded. I'd rather have 5 million people playing my "free" game and have 1 million of them spend $5 a month on stupid crap, than have 50,000 subscribers paying $10 a month.
Look at a similar game, Wizard 101. Pretty much the same as the new LotRO pay system. They have 5 million people playing that game. Now, sure, some people are not paying a penny, meanwhile, if only 20% of the population pays $1 a month, they're making a cool million every month.
This is great news for LotRO fans and lifetime subbers. YOUR GAME WILL LIVE LONGER.
I always kept coming back to the game, on and off, like so many others. I didn't want to waste another monthly sub on a game that couldn't hold my attention longer than a month at a time. Given the option to play the game anytime, no subscription, means I'll be back more often. And more often that not, I'll probably be dropping $5 a month for the new content or whatever.
I dunno, seems stupid to think the game will do poorly. I think it will be fine, probably even better.
Oh, and quit talking crap about people who prefer F2P over P2P. I'm sorry, but as an avid fan of this genre since the beginning, I've paid enough subscription fees...it gets pretty ridiculous after you stop and think about how much you've spent on this hobby. It's nice to get a break sometimes. Can't wait for Guild Wars 2...
Also, just because some people are F2P doesn't mean they're bad people. I'm nearly 30 years old, have two children and a woman I love and have a well paying job. I'm just a fan of paying for a retail game, and having the online playing aspect for free. If they provide a good online service, I'll provide added compensation by purchasing their additional content...not being forced to pay for shoddy services every month with no additional content.
I'm sorry, but people saying Turbine won't be making money are retarded. I'd rather have 5 million people playing my "free" game and have 1 million of them spend $5 a month on stupid crap, than have 50,000 subscribers paying $10 a month.
Look at a similar game, Wizard 101. Pretty much the same as the new LotRO pay system. They have 5 million people playing that game. Now, sure, some people are not paying a penny, meanwhile, if only 20% of the population pays $1 a month, they're making a cool million every month.
This is great news for LotRO fans and lifetime subbers. YOUR GAME WILL LIVE LONGER.
I always kept coming back to the game, on and off, like so many others. I didn't want to waste another monthly sub on a game that couldn't hold my attention longer than a month at a time. Given the option to play the game anytime, no subscription, means I'll be back more often. And more often that not, I'll probably be dropping $5 a month for the new content or whatever.
I dunno, seems stupid to think the game will do poorly. I think it will be fine, probably even better.
Oh, and quit talking crap about people who prefer F2P over P2P. I'm sorry, but as an avid fan of this genre since the beginning, I've paid enough subscription fees...it gets pretty ridiculous after you stop and think about how much you've spent on this hobby. It's nice to get a break sometimes. Can't wait for Guild Wars 2...
Also, just because some people are F2P doesn't mean they're bad people. I'm nearly 30 years old, have two children and a woman I love and have a well paying job. I'm just a fan of paying for a retail game, and having the online playing aspect for free. If they provide a good online service, I'll provide added compensation by purchasing their additional content...not being forced to pay for shoddy services every month with no additional content.
I'm not really sure it's great news for players currently in the game. The shock of Lotro is that it was "supposed" to be a healthy MMO. It shouldn't have needed a conversion to F2P to survive. Lifetimers and subscribers do need to be careful since the focus of the game may well shift away from expanding the game for long term players and move over to creating cash store items for the short term players that it may soon cater to. Lotro has already been slowing down on the the development side. There hasn't been a real expansion (IMO) since MoM (1.5 years ago) and they are now releasing basically one zone (i.e. a map) per annual expansion. The last "upgrade" was basically reworking lower level content (maybe this F2P thing have been in the works longer then we have known...) which didn't really address the needs of main base for the game.
It's great that new and old players will be able to come back and play the game. However, the I do think the current player base needs to keep on the fire with the developer as much as they can to get some real gameplay enchancements produced. The sad part is that even if this brings in a huge surplus in revenue they may not even be able to re-invest some or most of it back in the game since it will be a WB decision. So I"m not a big believer that these new players, if they create a huge revenue spike, automatically mean the game is going to get back on track. I''m a lifetime subscriber and I love the game. However, I'm beginning to feel a bit like a passenger on an old mothballed ship stuck in the harbor; where the owners want to sell tickets for day trip visitors as opposed to getting it back out to sea to continue it's journey.
First of all, this decision wasn't just Turbine's decision, but Warner Bros. as well. Keep up to date on your information, don't misinterpret what Turbine says, who know's what will happen only time will tell. Please don't make so many damn assumptions, just because of previous MMO's, etc. Matrix Online and others had so many more reasons why they were shutdown, don't just think it was one, example, MxO died because the servers were totally ghost towns, but there were further reasons behind why that happened. Turbine is no where near how bad SoE is on MMORPG's, one of the whole reasons why MxO died, is because of SoE. With Turbine being backed by Warner Bros., this could be a total change in the MMO industry, and it may not. I signed up for the Beta that is coming in 3 days, hope I get in it, we should all base what happens with those selected, rather than going with all this damn misinformation, and assumptions. Above all else every single post about this stuff is opinions, some maybe fact, if stated from the site, but out of that if its not truly stated, and just misinterpreted then well, sorry got to think a bit more on that stuff, before going on about how it all is.
The article is sub-par. Everything that is getting wrong with MMOs is even more pronounced on this site. I hope MMORPG gets paid for those articles at least, I do not know why would one discredit himself to this extend for free.
There may be many reasons to go F2P.
1) They will simply reach bigger audience who may not be playing LOTRO otherwise. It will give them second shot at "release" campaign. They will offer alternative payment methods.
2) F2P can get more money out of people than the rather low monthly fee that stays the same for years despite inflation (we have WoW to thank for it but not every game can sell millions and WoW sub fee is partially responsible for killing the industry, forcing everyone to go mass market).
3) It allows the game to stay more niche and avoid going too much mass market, losing the identity. Yeah right. It is true but I doubt the suits will honor this perk.
Still, this is not DDO. I cannot fathom how anyone got the idea that DDO can survive as sub based game, so going F2P is really no surprise (GW way would be more fair and fitting imo but more work). But DDO sells all kind of stuff in store from useless to essential to game-breaking. And it is the game breaking stuff and also very costly character respecs that might work in 20 level strictly instanced and very unbalanced world - but I have hard time seeing them in balanced open world MMO without making it obnoxious P2pwn.
I'm sorry, but people saying Turbine won't be making money are retarded. I'd rather have 5 million people playing my "free" game and have 1 million of them spend $5 a month on stupid crap, than have 50,000 subscribers paying $10 a month.
You are over-looking one VERY important factor... it doesn't cost a game $0 to support each user each month. Given your above supposition, your "free" game would probably be several million dollars in the hole each month unless you started cutting back on services.
That's the classic mistake that too many people who don't understand the online services model make.... volume does NOT equal profit. It merely equals the POTENTIAL for profit. You've got to find a way to convert enough of that volume to revenue...otherwise all those extra people using your service end up doing is speeding your way to bankruptcy court.
Subscription based models factor in thier overhead per user when calculating the subscription fee so that they make sure they are making a profit off each user. With the F2P model it's a big question mark.... even the business is good at milking every dollar out of thier users, then YES they CAN be very profitable...if thier not, however, then they go broke.
If a F2P model isn't converting enough of thier users to revenue, they have a few options....
- Drasticaly cut services
- Drasticaly alter thier game mechanics to (essentialy) force people to use the cash shop to play.
- Find another way to "Commoditze" thier users (banners ads, product placement, etc)
None of those are particularly pleasant options to the consumer.
Now, lets go back and reevalute your proposition with the understanding that are are actual costs involved as well. Assume for the sake of arguement that each user costs you $6 to support per month.
Which would you rather have 5 Million users spending an average of $5 per month each...or 50,000 subscribers paying a monthly fee of $10?
I cannot help but laugh at the people who are willing to cancel their lifetime subscription. Or are angry about the free to play system. First off let me start by saying there isn't a game out there which will actually PAY you with points ingame or any other currency every month so you can buy things for free. None. Now adding that into my lifetime subscription...
Points every month. (Practically getting Paid to play) Check.
VIP forever. Check.
(If Rumors are true: Expansions costs points) Being able to buy every expansion with FREE POINTS EVERY MONTH check.
Xp potions, items, ress cake, healing pots, races, classes. All this for free with points being given to me. How the heck can anyone actually whine and mope about it being free when lifers actually get paid to play. What more do you want? I ask you all this question. What more could you Possibly want, hands down this is the best deal i have ever gotten. Ever.
The only thing i could understand was if you dislike any type of Itemshop. But thats where my thoughts stop. Or fear of horrible community i guess. But seriously i wouldn't mind hearing your point of view on this so please reply.
Also, it is just a more PvE centric version of WoW. With hardly any pvp. I wonder what kinda endgame content there is. Will people seriously continue PAYING to play? Its just a matter of time before it goes f2p if you ask me.
Would fall short of calling it a WoW clone, algenon by derek dumb kinda reinvented the term.
Above all, unbalanced and *potentially* ruins RP. Like I used to play a fantasy game that has cash shop items which they claim are just 'cosmetic'. Yes cosmetic rifles, machineguns and helmets, in the middle of my fantasy game.
Also, noobs using exp pots to get to level cap faster than others.
I think LOTR has quite a big following now..........when it is free to play i will play it. I have a bought copy of the game but while this is bad i dont think they needed to do it*not aware of numbers and facts*. It will bring me to level up in the game for sure. so. I guess it does have good points, i am sure many gamers would agree.People say lotr has best landscapes and art for scenery, who wouldnt sign up
Its middle earth. Thats an instant +10 just from the theme alone. But look past that. Take a good hard look. What good is a pretty landscape if all there is to do is grind mobs, do repetitive quests (100 'different' quests asking you to kill 10 of a different mob each ISNT not a grind fest), and then when you reach level cap, there isn't much to do.
Nothing in life is truly free firstoff and the OP should of done the article on what F2P mmo's do to the gaming community. Not in a good way either.
I hardly see any realistic articles from mmorpg.com anymore and after seeing some harsh views of certain mmo's deleted from the forums, I'm beginning to think someone is dipping in their pockets in order to create sculpted reviews of certain games on the site to boost publicity.
Most likely this post will get deleted too if that is true.
Have you changed your mind, since your post isn't deleted ?
well if monster play ain't free then LoTRO stays off my hard drive and stays on my shelf.
Who the hell plays lotro for monster play? lol
The ones that have 1+ characters on both sides that are max ranked. I heard that grind is comparable to the PvP grind to Grand Marshal WoW used to have.
In the days i played Lotro, grind to max out monsters was drastically shortened with the help of another player. Just beat him instead of real players in a quiet corner of the monsterplay area for a week or two and you were nearly maxed out I do hope this was changed since then.
Lotro in my eyes had many flaws, but monsterplay was the most ridiculous implementation of pvp i have ever witnessed in a mmo. Not balanced in any way and most of the times boring as hell ....
Note: I am a horrible MMO Gamer... I cannot compete with the reallly good Players that Raid and all that... yet I still believe the old way of MMO design is the superior design. I do not support Turbine in their recent decision. I am a Lifer there and will stay in LotRO, if for no other reason than to be a royal pain and point out(ever so often) why Turbine should go back to regular subscription based financing.
I think Turbine needs the vet players as some kind of mobile advertisement placard (to show what's accessible with VIP status) to be successful with their new payment model. So if they focus only or too much on the new players, noone will stay long enough to show all those shiny equip that would make the free players want to play and therefore pay. So anybody who is not content with this decision should (as always) vote with his feet and stay away. The rest will probably simply have fun with the game, regardless of the payment model.
If this change will be a success depends not at last on the fact, if they can maintain their USPs (strong brand and nice community, ...). Attracting only f2p hoppers won't help in the long run ....
Comments
Yes I admit that chart was totaly useless. 2008 is 2 years old. I have to question everthing about it. I never heard of this website untili saw it in this article.
I call it fantisy at best, made up at worse.
It doesn't show 0 subs actually. It stops at 150k in 2008. Maybe you are mistaking it for the sims online since both are yellow.
Hey fair point. So the graph only shows that Lotro had a dip in numbers going into 2008, which does not explain why it goes F2P in 2010. Looking at the graph the other yellow line extends back too far to be Lotro, thanks for clearing that up.
Not really certain how you can be so certain that LoTRO wasn't nearly on life support. If despite the expansions there is no upsurge in subs, and in fact maybe even a decline in players, then it makes perfect sense for Turbine to take the MMO into the F2P market. PLayers are less likely to stop playing so you just need a decent cash shop model to keep the game moving forward. Given that next generation mmorpg are on the horizon for end of this year/start of the next one then an older game like LoTRO with few subs must have seemed to be a poor prospect in the subscription mmo market.
I'm sorry, but people saying Turbine won't be making money are retarded. I'd rather have 5 million people playing my "free" game and have 1 million of them spend $5 a month on stupid crap, than have 50,000 subscribers paying $10 a month.
Look at a similar game, Wizard 101. Pretty much the same as the new LotRO pay system. They have 5 million people playing that game. Now, sure, some people are not paying a penny, meanwhile, if only 20% of the population pays $1 a month, they're making a cool million every month.
This is great news for LotRO fans and lifetime subbers. YOUR GAME WILL LIVE LONGER.
I always kept coming back to the game, on and off, like so many others. I didn't want to waste another monthly sub on a game that couldn't hold my attention longer than a month at a time. Given the option to play the game anytime, no subscription, means I'll be back more often. And more often that not, I'll probably be dropping $5 a month for the new content or whatever.
I dunno, seems stupid to think the game will do poorly. I think it will be fine, probably even better.
Oh, and quit talking crap about people who prefer F2P over P2P. I'm sorry, but as an avid fan of this genre since the beginning, I've paid enough subscription fees...it gets pretty ridiculous after you stop and think about how much you've spent on this hobby. It's nice to get a break sometimes. Can't wait for Guild Wars 2...
Also, just because some people are F2P doesn't mean they're bad people. I'm nearly 30 years old, have two children and a woman I love and have a well paying job. I'm just a fan of paying for a retail game, and having the online playing aspect for free. If they provide a good online service, I'll provide added compensation by purchasing their additional content...not being forced to pay for shoddy services every month with no additional content.
I'm not really sure it's great news for players currently in the game. The shock of Lotro is that it was "supposed" to be a healthy MMO. It shouldn't have needed a conversion to F2P to survive. Lifetimers and subscribers do need to be careful since the focus of the game may well shift away from expanding the game for long term players and move over to creating cash store items for the short term players that it may soon cater to. Lotro has already been slowing down on the the development side. There hasn't been a real expansion (IMO) since MoM (1.5 years ago) and they are now releasing basically one zone (i.e. a map) per annual expansion. The last "upgrade" was basically reworking lower level content (maybe this F2P thing have been in the works longer then we have known...) which didn't really address the needs of main base for the game.
It's great that new and old players will be able to come back and play the game. However, the I do think the current player base needs to keep on the fire with the developer as much as they can to get some real gameplay enchancements produced. The sad part is that even if this brings in a huge surplus in revenue they may not even be able to re-invest some or most of it back in the game since it will be a WB decision. So I"m not a big believer that these new players, if they create a huge revenue spike, automatically mean the game is going to get back on track. I''m a lifetime subscriber and I love the game. However, I'm beginning to feel a bit like a passenger on an old mothballed ship stuck in the harbor; where the owners want to sell tickets for day trip visitors as opposed to getting it back out to sea to continue it's journey.
First of all, this decision wasn't just Turbine's decision, but Warner Bros. as well. Keep up to date on your information, don't misinterpret what Turbine says, who know's what will happen only time will tell. Please don't make so many damn assumptions, just because of previous MMO's, etc. Matrix Online and others had so many more reasons why they were shutdown, don't just think it was one, example, MxO died because the servers were totally ghost towns, but there were further reasons behind why that happened. Turbine is no where near how bad SoE is on MMORPG's, one of the whole reasons why MxO died, is because of SoE. With Turbine being backed by Warner Bros., this could be a total change in the MMO industry, and it may not. I signed up for the Beta that is coming in 3 days, hope I get in it, we should all base what happens with those selected, rather than going with all this damn misinformation, and assumptions. Above all else every single post about this stuff is opinions, some maybe fact, if stated from the site, but out of that if its not truly stated, and just misinterpreted then well, sorry got to think a bit more on that stuff, before going on about how it all is.
The article is sub-par. Everything that is getting wrong with MMOs is even more pronounced on this site. I hope MMORPG gets paid for those articles at least, I do not know why would one discredit himself to this extend for free.
There may be many reasons to go F2P.
1) They will simply reach bigger audience who may not be playing LOTRO otherwise. It will give them second shot at "release" campaign. They will offer alternative payment methods.
2) F2P can get more money out of people than the rather low monthly fee that stays the same for years despite inflation (we have WoW to thank for it but not every game can sell millions and WoW sub fee is partially responsible for killing the industry, forcing everyone to go mass market).
3) It allows the game to stay more niche and avoid going too much mass market, losing the identity. Yeah right. It is true but I doubt the suits will honor this perk.
Still, this is not DDO. I cannot fathom how anyone got the idea that DDO can survive as sub based game, so going F2P is really no surprise (GW way would be more fair and fitting imo but more work). But DDO sells all kind of stuff in store from useless to essential to game-breaking. And it is the game breaking stuff and also very costly character respecs that might work in 20 level strictly instanced and very unbalanced world - but I have hard time seeing them in balanced open world MMO without making it obnoxious P2pwn.
You are over-looking one VERY important factor... it doesn't cost a game $0 to support each user each month. Given your above supposition, your "free" game would probably be several million dollars in the hole each month unless you started cutting back on services.
That's the classic mistake that too many people who don't understand the online services model make.... volume does NOT equal profit. It merely equals the POTENTIAL for profit. You've got to find a way to convert enough of that volume to revenue...otherwise all those extra people using your service end up doing is speeding your way to bankruptcy court.
Subscription based models factor in thier overhead per user when calculating the subscription fee so that they make sure they are making a profit off each user. With the F2P model it's a big question mark.... even the business is good at milking every dollar out of thier users, then YES they CAN be very profitable...if thier not, however, then they go broke.
If a F2P model isn't converting enough of thier users to revenue, they have a few options....
- Drasticaly cut services
- Drasticaly alter thier game mechanics to (essentialy) force people to use the cash shop to play.
- Find another way to "Commoditze" thier users (banners ads, product placement, etc)
None of those are particularly pleasant options to the consumer.
Now, lets go back and reevalute your proposition with the understanding that are are actual costs involved as well. Assume for the sake of arguement that each user costs you $6 to support per month.
Which would you rather have 5 Million users spending an average of $5 per month each...or 50,000 subscribers paying a monthly fee of $10?
yes its free but to do even basic stuff like pvp, you need a paid account. And you can't spend some kinda talent point.
I cannot help but laugh at the people who are willing to cancel their lifetime subscription. Or are angry about the free to play system. First off let me start by saying there isn't a game out there which will actually PAY you with points ingame or any other currency every month so you can buy things for free. None. Now adding that into my lifetime subscription...
Points every month. (Practically getting Paid to play) Check.
VIP forever. Check.
(If Rumors are true: Expansions costs points) Being able to buy every expansion with FREE POINTS EVERY MONTH check.
Xp potions, items, ress cake, healing pots, races, classes. All this for free with points being given to me. How the heck can anyone actually whine and mope about it being free when lifers actually get paid to play. What more do you want? I ask you all this question. What more could you Possibly want, hands down this is the best deal i have ever gotten. Ever.
The only thing i could understand was if you dislike any type of Itemshop. But thats where my thoughts stop. Or fear of horrible community i guess. But seriously i wouldn't mind hearing your point of view on this so please reply.
But how does someone get a lifetime sub?
Also, it is just a more PvE centric version of WoW. With hardly any pvp. I wonder what kinda endgame content there is. Will people seriously continue PAYING to play? Its just a matter of time before it goes f2p if you ask me.
Would fall short of calling it a WoW clone, algenon by derek dumb kinda reinvented the term.
Ditto.
This cash shop concept is ruining the MMO genre imo.
1) Ruins the immersion when the shop constantly reminds you of its existance.
2) Too accessible, often fosters a clusterf*ck of small brats.
Above all, unbalanced and *potentially* ruins RP. Like I used to play a fantasy game that has cash shop items which they claim are just 'cosmetic'. Yes cosmetic rifles, machineguns and helmets, in the middle of my fantasy game.
Also, noobs using exp pots to get to level cap faster than others.
I think LOTR has quite a big following now..........when it is free to play i will play it. I have a bought copy of the game but while this is bad i dont think they needed to do it*not aware of numbers and facts*. It will bring me to level up in the game for sure. so. I guess it does have good points, i am sure many gamers would agree.People say lotr has best landscapes and art for scenery, who wouldnt sign up
Its middle earth. Thats an instant +10 just from the theme alone. But look past that. Take a good hard look. What good is a pretty landscape if all there is to do is grind mobs, do repetitive quests (100 'different' quests asking you to kill 10 of a different mob each ISNT not a grind fest), and then when you reach level cap, there isn't much to do.
Have you changed your mind, since your post isn't deleted ?
In the days i played Lotro, grind to max out monsters was drastically shortened with the help of another player. Just beat him instead of real players in a quiet corner of the monsterplay area for a week or two and you were nearly maxed out
I do hope this was changed since then.
Lotro in my eyes had many flaws, but monsterplay was the most ridiculous implementation of pvp i have ever witnessed in a mmo. Not balanced in any way and most of the times boring as hell ....
I think Turbine needs the vet players as some kind of mobile advertisement placard (to show what's accessible with VIP status) to be successful with their new payment model. So if they focus only or too much on the new players, noone will stay long enough to show all those shiny equip that would make the free players want to play and therefore pay. So anybody who is not content with this decision should (as always) vote with his feet and stay away. The rest will probably simply have fun with the game, regardless of the payment model.
If this change will be a success depends not at last on the fact, if they can maintain their USPs (strong brand and nice community, ...). Attracting only f2p hoppers won't help in the long run ....