All this talk of how important skill is relevant to gearscore. I thought WoW had no skill, or at least very little of it- at least once you got down your basic rotation.
All this talk of how important skill is relevant to gearscore. I thought WoW had no skill, or at least very little of it- at least once you got down your basic rotation.
You apparently do not know about raiding much. MOST of the guilds still haven't killed the lich king yet, and they are not able to do the heroic content.
I would love to see you going into fight sindragosa and stand there with your basic rotation. You will be a gold mine to pay for your repair bills.
Normally watching the chat logs in WoW for anything 99.9 percent of the time is just a complete waste of various child bashing, self propelled egos, and just incoherent non social chat. But not long ago the other day something caught my eye.
It was a conversation between 4 people at first about a random run with another player who they claimed they had to just toss out before starting because "his skill rating is just too low on GS". No, not because his GS was low, they said skill rating.
When did Gearscore turn into Skillscore? How does a number rating on gear tell you wether a player can do the job or not?
The conversation went on and on between these guys. One claimed he wasnt concerned with the numbers of his GS, but just the fact the numbers were low, meant his skill level was low.
This is all I see now on my realm, GS = Skill. This stupid comment comes up almost every time in the prerequisites when many are putting together a group.
I started WoW to play the game with my daughter who asked, I'm not that much of a fan of the game period but she is.
Jesus, how frigin stupid can the lot of you be that use GS in this way to turn a tool like GS into a "player"rating?
The GS addon now shows your 'skillscore' based on past experience and the gear for your current talent set. It actually makes sense this way. Before a healer could 'pass' the GS check with tank gear on, for example.
I always hear "I'd rather take a skilled but undergeared player than an awesomely geared idiot."
I haven't seen it in action.
Not on a huge scale, anyways. In a guild, yes, because (most) guilds understand that you need to get the gear somehow, so they'll tolerate your crappy gear until you get better items. PUGs? Different story. I see PUGs as a last resort; if you need help with something, you'll probably turn to your family/friends (guild) before random strangers who expect you to be completely STRONGSAUCE so they can get their loot ASAP (PUG).
Blizzard made gear far too powerful, and they've realized it. Apparently, they're going to try to change it with Cataclysm. We'll see.
The GS is a good indicator to use when you are creating Pick Up Group raids, but it is pretty useless for guilds.
Other indicators to use are:
- Achievements (instance specific and/or other hard encounters)
- Inspection
If I am collecting a ICC10 raid that aims to do a lot of hardmodes. I would use all those indicators in order to assemble a good raid. For normal mode ICC raids, I would still probably use all three, but with lesser requirements. However, if I am collecting a VoA raid or ToC raid, I would mostly use Achievements.
"I always hear "I'd rather take a skilled but undergeared player than an awesomely geared idiot.""
Well, this is a good idea in theory, but unfortunately it does not work in WoW anymore. Especially in PUGs where performance will almost never be as good as in organised raids by guilds. You always want to create a raid that is suitable for a task at hand. You also have to keep in mind that PUGs often dispand after first few unsuccessful attempts. ICC for example has many encounters that will test the gear level of your raid. Many encounters are either healer heavy or DPS heavy. Having great players with substandard gear will not take you that far - unless you got time on your side - not true for most PUGs.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
CBA reading the entire thread sry, surely someone brought this up already in which case just ignore me.
GS is situational, not totally rubbish but you cant rely on it entirely ofc. For guilds I cant see it having any use at all. For PUGS however its about playing the numbers. You want to maximize your chance of succes.
Now if you got 9 dependable guys on friendslist who all happen to be online then good for you. You're all set! If you dont, you need to invite 9 'randoms'. Now considering you know nuffin about them except their gear/achievements... would you want these 9 guys to have 4k GS or 5k GS? This is the only thing you know about them, their gear. As far as you know, they are of equal skill. You want the guys with 5k ofc.
Like I said GS is situational and there's no guarantee the guys with higher GS will perform better, they are more likely to tho. Relying on the GSaddon in every situation is kinda nuts, but assuming the opposite, that ppl with high GS are worse players is just plain stupid.
I dont like the GSaddon myself, and I dont like where achievements have taken raiding. When I played I always made sure to have my friendslist full of ppl I knew could perform.
Normally watching the chat logs in WoW for anything 99.9 percent of the time is just a complete waste of various child bashing, self propelled egos, and just incoherent non social chat. But not long ago the other day something caught my eye.
It was a conversation between 4 people at first about a random run with another player who they claimed they had to just toss out before starting because "his skill rating is just too low on GS". No, not because his GS was low, they said skill rating.
When did Gearscore turn into Skillscore? How does a number rating on gear tell you wether a player can do the job or not?
The conversation went on and on between these guys. One claimed he wasnt concerned with the numbers of his GS, but just the fact the numbers were low, meant his skill level was low.
This is all I see now on my realm, GS = Skill. This stupid comment comes up almost every time in the prerequisites when many are putting together a group.
I started WoW to play the game with my daughter who asked, I'm not that much of a fan of the game period but she is.
Jesus, how frigin stupid can the lot of you be that use GS in this way to turn a tool like GS into a "player"rating?
Since there is no way to measure your "skill" level, GearScore is the next best thing. Yeah its not accurate and a 6K GS guy that sux may do half the DPS compared to a 5K GS guy that knows his business. But chances are, a 6K GS guy will do more DPS then a 5K GS DPS.
If there was no GearScore, then you would have to trust the word of a guy, dreassed in blues, boasting he out DPSed fully-purpled guy in ICC raid.
u can get higher GS just by simply farming heroics and never entering a raid dungeon and u would still be consider to be PRO for some reason? i would prefer for them to link their achievements instead showing proof that you actually did the encounter and know WTF u are doing.
That is another thing that bugs me about WoW - the achievement thing is so bugged. Not sure if it was the server change I did four years back or the fact I have not been a constant subscriber since release, but most of my toons do not even have half the achievements that they have the gear in the bank from doing... it is kind of sad.
Also even with this, you do face the issue of people being on alts - so they may have more knowledge of whatever you are planning on doing than may be apparent.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Everyone has this wrong and it's such a simple concept.
A skilled player more than likely can overcome the "deficiencies" of a 4k GS.
Any player can overcome the "deficiencies" of a 5.6k GS.
When forming a PUG, you are more likely to party with "any player."
Hence the desire for higher gear scores.
It's not dumb. It's actually quite logical.
The skilled player can min/max the 4k GS to get the most out of it.
The unskilled player with a 5.6k GS could drop a rock and somehow manage to miss the ground.
There are multiple issues here. Some people are against all forms of gear scores. Some people are against GearScore itself.
I fall into the latter.
I agree that to an extent as a baseline, that some form of gear check would be a good thing - WoW does it themselves on certain Heroics (you cannot queue for them until you have better gear). This would fall into the not trying to run ICC in level 80 quest greens and blues.
It would be good to have something that actually took into account the glyphs, gems, enchants, PvP or PvE, achievements, etc, etc - to give you that basescore. It would still not be 100% reliable, and people would need to be realistic in what scores they are looking for in going into certain content... cause if you are just farming emblems and you are using the random queue, you may actually run into people that are there to get the gear - whether alts or fresh players.
That being said, GearScore does not do this. So people using a faulty system with inflated scores is kind of...stupid. IMO.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Gearscore is a rough approximation of the quality of the gear that a particular player is wearing. It is also a rough indication of the experience level of the player. A low gearscore would indicate that a player hasn't ran that many random dungeons yet.
Of course it has NOTHING to do with skill, which brings up another point...
Pleast stop fooling yourself into thinking that ANY MMO actually requires SKILL.
Gearscore is a rough approximation of the quality of the gear that a particular player is wearing. It is also a rough indication of the experience level of the player. A low gearscore would indicate that a player hasn't ran that many random dungeons yet.
Of course it has NOTHING to do with skill, which brings up another point...
Pleast stop fooling yourself into thinking that ANY MMO actually requires SKILL.
Actually, everything in life requires some form of skill at some level...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Gearscore is a rough approximation of the quality of the gear that a particular player is wearing. It is also a rough indication of the experience level of the player. A low gearscore would indicate that a player hasn't ran that many random dungeons yet.
Of course it has NOTHING to do with skill, which brings up another point...
Pleast stop fooling yourself into thinking that ANY MMO actually requires SKILL.
Actually, everything in life requires some form of skill at some level...
Sure, you could argue that it takes just as much skill to wipe your ass as it does to play WoW. So now do we argue about wiping techniques and skidmark avoidance?
Gearscore is a rough approximation of the quality of the gear that a particular player is wearing. It is also a rough indication of the experience level of the player. A low gearscore would indicate that a player hasn't ran that many random dungeons yet.
Of course it has NOTHING to do with skill, which brings up another point...
Pleast stop fooling yourself into thinking that ANY MMO actually requires SKILL.
Actually, everything in life requires some form of skill at some level...
Sure, you could argue that it takes just as much skill to wipe your ass as it does to play WoW. So now do we argue about wiping techniques and skidmark avoidance?
Even WoW requires a certain amount of skill. I would say that it probably takes longer as a kid to be instructed and figure out their particular proper technique for wiping butt than it does for a teen/young adult/adult to learn the particular steps required in a WoW raid; but then again, to be a fair comparison - you would need that young adult that has never wiped their butt before or you would need to try to teach the toddler the raid....
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I don't like gear score anymore than the next person. Mainly because i know I can outplay, out dps, and out heal most people in a gearscore almost 1k more than me. On the other hand If people are puttign together a group of people they do nto know , It would make perfect sense to at least take people who are geared really well since mostpeople suck horribly at playing WoW.
The only ligitimate complaint I have is, people nto knowing what gear score is adequate for content they are doing. Like a 5700 gs for Gruul's lair or some shit .... and no Im not exagerating. People are dumb.
Well, GS may not be an indication of skills, it certainly *is* correlated with performance.
Take a sample of dps with 6k GS, and take a sample of dps with 5k GS, and go up to any ICC boss and i bet there is a statistical difference between their DPS performance.
Clearly, a small difference in GS does not mean much. There are so many variables. But a big difference is useful information. No matter how good a player is, i probably don't want to group with a 4K GS dps for ICC 25 content, unless he/she is a friend I am wililng to carry.
There is a right way to use GS.
This! This! This!
This is the complete fail that the OP is talking about.
Just because a person has a certain GS and thus a theoretical DPS they can put out does not mean they have the skill to put out that DPS.
It is entirely possible for the person that knows what they are doing with a GS of 4K to put out more DPS than the person with a a GS well over 5K that does not know what they are doing.
The other thing to take into account is that the mouseover GS only shows a base score - it does not take into account how many PvP pieces they have which would contribute to an overall GS but not offer the better stats of somebody with less GS but with only PvE pieces.
This! This! This!
This is the complete fail of someone who has never done ICC 25 man. Every DPS is required to be able to put out 6.5k dps on festergut. If you can't put out that kind of single target DPS then your raid fails, bottom line. Link me one WWS of a 4k GS dps putting out 6.5k dps on fester. Just one. If the 5k GS dps can't do it either (and I've seen it) they get booted. My rogue, 5045GS does 7800 DPS on fester. If I couldn't pull over 6.5k, then I have no place in the raid and I couldn't pull it with a 4k GS.
Well, GS may not be an indication of skills, it certainly *is* correlated with performance.
Take a sample of dps with 6k GS, and take a sample of dps with 5k GS, and go up to any ICC boss and i bet there is a statistical difference between their DPS performance.
Clearly, a small difference in GS does not mean much. There are so many variables. But a big difference is useful information. No matter how good a player is, i probably don't want to group with a 4K GS dps for ICC 25 content, unless he/she is a friend I am wililng to carry.
There is a right way to use GS.
This! This! This!
This is the complete fail that the OP is talking about.
Just because a person has a certain GS and thus a theoretical DPS they can put out does not mean they have the skill to put out that DPS.
It is entirely possible for the person that knows what they are doing with a GS of 4K to put out more DPS than the person with a a GS well over 5K that does not know what they are doing.
The other thing to take into account is that the mouseover GS only shows a base score - it does not take into account how many PvP pieces they have which would contribute to an overall GS but not offer the better stats of somebody with less GS but with only PvE pieces.
This! This! This!
This is the complete fail of someone who has never done ICC 25 man. Every DPS is required to be able to put out 6.5k dps on festergut. If you can't put out that kind of single target DPS then your raid fails, bottom line. Link me one WWS of a 4k GS dps putting out 6.5k dps on fester. Just one. If the 5k GS dps can't do it either (and I've seen it) they get booted. My rogue, 5045GS does 7800 DPS on fester. If I couldn't pull over 6.5k, then I have no place in the raid and I couldn't pull it with a 4k GS.
I have four 80s in the 5100-5300 GS range. None of them can put out more than 3-4k DPS if that.
Aside from weapons, all four of them are sporting all PvP gear with 900-1100 or so Res and are in the 27-30k range on health.
The 4k GS guy in PvE gear is going to put out more DPS than me, no itemization for Res and less on Stam.
Heck, my guys actually ended up at a certain point doing less DPS as their GS increased and I switched more to PvP pieces than PvE.
Yes, when you mouseover my toon...yep, GS is real helpful.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
First of all you dont need skill to play wow, next you dont need gear just before a new xpac, next if you are into so called hardcore raiding, its no 'achievement' it doesnt take skill to beat low lvl AI. (it takes even less to beat the avg. wow player in PVP).
The feel good factor when you get your 'epix' is like showing off your 'fuzz' to 5 yr olds.
....5 80's, 2 70's all DeathWing-US gold farmers...
This is the complete fail of someone who has never done ICC 25 man. Every DPS is required to be able to put out 6.5k dps on festergut. If you can't put out that kind of single target DPS then your raid fails, bottom line. Link me one WWS of a 4k GS dps putting out 6.5k dps on fester. Just one. If the 5k GS dps can't do it either (and I've seen it) they get booted. My rogue, 5045GS does 7800 DPS on fester. If I couldn't pull over 6.5k, then I have no place in the raid and I couldn't pull it with a 4k GS.
I have four 80s in the 5100-5300 GS range. None of them can put out more than 3-4k DPS if that.
Aside from weapons, all four of them are sporting all PvP gear with 900-1100 or so Res and are in the 27-30k range on health.
The 4k GS guy in PvE gear is going to put out more DPS than me, no itemization for Res and less on Stam.
Heck, my guys actually ended up at a certain point doing less DPS as their GS increased and I switched more to PvP pieces than PvE.
Yes, when you mouseover my toon...yep, GS is real helpful.
As I said above, I've seen people sneak in with PvP gear and even >5k GS pve people with crap dps. Then, after marrowgar fail where they invaribly reveal themselves, they get booted. Hell, I can look at spike damage and tell you who is in PvP gear and will be getting the boot. GS is a tool, in conjunction with recount, that can make sure you have the right makeup. I'm not arguing your dps sucks in PvP gear. Believe me, no arguments here. I'm just saying that your 4k "pve geared" dps is not going to cut it on festergut, no matter how skilled they are. Here's an easier one. I won't heal a 3.5k GS tank on heroic HoR. I don't care how "leet" you think you are, you have no business in heroic hor with that kind of GS.
This is the complete fail of someone who has never done ICC 25 man. Every DPS is required to be able to put out 6.5k dps on festergut. If you can't put out that kind of single target DPS then your raid fails, bottom line. Link me one WWS of a 4k GS dps putting out 6.5k dps on fester. Just one. If the 5k GS dps can't do it either (and I've seen it) they get booted. My rogue, 5045GS does 7800 DPS on fester. If I couldn't pull over 6.5k, then I have no place in the raid and I couldn't pull it with a 4k GS.
I have four 80s in the 5100-5300 GS range. None of them can put out more than 3-4k DPS if that.
Aside from weapons, all four of them are sporting all PvP gear with 900-1100 or so Res and are in the 27-30k range on health.
The 4k GS guy in PvE gear is going to put out more DPS than me, no itemization for Res and less on Stam.
Heck, my guys actually ended up at a certain point doing less DPS as their GS increased and I switched more to PvP pieces than PvE.
Yes, when you mouseover my toon...yep, GS is real helpful.
As I said above, I've seen people sneak in with PvP gear and even >5k GS pve people with crap dps. Then, after marrowgar fail where they invaribly reveal themselves, they get booted. Hell, I can look at spike damage and tell you who is in PvP gear and will be getting the boot. GS is a tool, in conjunction with recount, that can make sure you have the right makeup. I'm not arguing your dps sucks in PvP gear. Believe me, no arguments here. I'm just saying that your 4k "pve geared" dps is not going to cut it on festergut, no matter how skilled they are. Here's an easier one. I won't heal a 3.5k GS tank on heroic HoR. I don't care how "leet" you think you are, you have no business in heroic hor with that kind of GS.
The argument is not really about a gear check encounter. It is in general how GS is being used, and the GS requirements people are setting for encounters that are absurd - that is where you get into the 4k (which is not really about somebody with 4k literally, but looking at those on the plus side of 4.5k) people can make the 5-5.5k people look sad.
Just for the giggles, I decided to take a look at GS, W-H, and Rawr overall (std raid buffs, not pots/food, no hero/blood) for my four 80s (taking into account that although my sub is good through the 18th, I uninstalled the game last week and cannot change out PvP trinks, etc).
Ret Paladin - GS (iLvl 229, 5276), W-H (2592), and Rawr (5568 DPS)
Frost Death Knight - GS (iLvl 242, 5236), W-H (2568), and Rawr (5356 DPS)
Ele Shaman - GS (iLvl 230, 4835), W-H (2368), and Rawr (9209 DPS)
So based on what you have said, the three guys with a GS in the 5.2-5.4k range would not pass the DPS check while the 4.8k GS guy would... funny how that works out, eh?
Btw, the 4.8k GS guy is still in PvP gear and not PvE gear - he only has an iLvl 200 shield, iLvl 200 ring and trink, and even an iLvl 174 trink... the armor is typical BG grind.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Just for the giggles, I decided to take a look at GS, W-H, and Rawr overall (std raid buffs, not pots/food, no hero/blood) for my four 80s (taking into account that although my sub is good through the 18th, I uninstalled the game last week and cannot change out PvP trinks, etc).
Ret Paladin - GS (iLvl 229, 5276), W-H (2592), and Rawr (5568 DPS)
Frost Death Knight - GS (iLvl 242, 5236), W-H (2568), and Rawr (5356 DPS)
Ele Shaman - GS (iLvl 230, 4835), W-H (2368), and Rawr (9209 DPS)
So based on what you have said, the three guys with a GS in the 5.2-5.4k range would not pass the DPS check while the 4.8k GS guy would... funny how that works out, eh?
Btw, the 4.8k GS guy is still in PvP gear and not PvE gear - he only has an iLvl 200 shield, iLvl 200 ring and trink, and even an iLvl 174 trink... the armor is typical BG grind.
9k dps on a average L230 Ele Shaman? Give me a link to your armory and I will verify it. Otherwise, it sounds like you are just making things up.
Just for the giggles, I decided to take a look at GS, W-H, and Rawr overall (std raid buffs, not pots/food, no hero/blood) for my four 80s (taking into account that although my sub is good through the 18th, I uninstalled the game last week and cannot change out PvP trinks, etc).
Ret Paladin - GS (iLvl 229, 5276), W-H (2592), and Rawr (5568 DPS)
Frost Death Knight - GS (iLvl 242, 5236), W-H (2568), and Rawr (5356 DPS)
Ele Shaman - GS (iLvl 230, 4835), W-H (2368), and Rawr (9209 DPS)
So based on what you have said, the three guys with a GS in the 5.2-5.4k range would not pass the DPS check while the 4.8k GS guy would... funny how that works out, eh?
Btw, the 4.8k GS guy is still in PvP gear and not PvE gear - he only has an iLvl 200 shield, iLvl 200 ring and trink, and even an iLvl 174 trink... the armor is typical BG grind.
9k dps on a average L230 Ele Shaman? Give me a link to your armory and I will verify it. Otherwise, it sounds like you are just making things up.
Yeah I dont belive this either, I had a ret pally with a 5.3k GS pre ICC, and was able to do well over 7k dps. I have seen Locks Top damage meters with lower GS and Frost Dk dps... Seriously why you even trying in frost. if you have that GS go Blood or Unholy.
As for the people who dont like GS, run a few heroics get the gear and get up there, its not that hard. GS might not mean skill but atlest gives you the biggest advantage with your skill.
Healers and GS dont mean crap! Saw one post in here how hes undergeared compared to other healers and out healing them... its all depending on the class that your healing at, A good Disc priest will never be on top of the healing meaters, a good Holy pally will never have good over heals, a good shammy will do more then spam chain heal, its not hard to top healing charts, but that dont mean your the best healer out there. if the party lives without a death thats how you can tell if there are good healers, not by the amount show on the healing meaters.
I'm not defending it; I consider it a horrible game mechanic .. but it does make a sort of sense.
When in a PUG, you're dealing with unknowns. Player skill is not a visible quality. Gearscore is. It's always a bit of a gamble, but a higher gearscore at least reduces the chance that a player will be absolutely terrible on the grounds that:
1. If they have great gear, they've obviously been in a lot of groups. Experience counts a little.
2. The higher the gear is, the more the item stats will act as a crutch to mitigate poor performance.
And we are talking about MMORPGs right? isn't the whole point to be social. If you play a game to lvl 80 and you haven't developed a dozen or so friends that you can run a 30 minute heroic with, then you fail more than the people talking about gearscore.
If you put yourself in a position where your only chance to do heroics is constantly with 4 strangers, then God forbid they want some determinable way of knowing if you are going to waste their time. GS and acheivements are a quick and easy way.
In the absence of all other information (ie, strangers) of course people are going to want to avoid grouping with people who will waste their time.
So again, in the course of leveling to 80, and getting experience running heroics.. you didn't meet 50 people to fill up your friends list? You didn't join a guild? And remember, most players in WOW are talking in guildchat or with friends... the morons are the ones who have 'public conversations' in /trade.
I've never in my gaming experience encountered 'gearscore'. The closest I have come to it is when talking to a guildmate and mentioning the iLevel of my worst piece of equipment (deciding what to spend frost emb on).
Gearscore is for people who can't make friends or join a productive guild. If you are one of those people, then don't blame the game for allowing others like you to assess your skill. The rest of us are in guilds or have a group of friends who never even think about what gear we have on except when the boss dies.
Just for the giggles, I decided to take a look at GS, W-H, and Rawr overall (std raid buffs, not pots/food, no hero/blood) for my four 80s (taking into account that although my sub is good through the 18th, I uninstalled the game last week and cannot change out PvP trinks, etc).
Ret Paladin - GS (iLvl 229, 5276), W-H (2592), and Rawr (5568 DPS)
Frost Death Knight - GS (iLvl 242, 5236), W-H (2568), and Rawr (5356 DPS)
Ele Shaman - GS (iLvl 230, 4835), W-H (2368), and Rawr (9209 DPS)
So based on what you have said, the three guys with a GS in the 5.2-5.4k range would not pass the DPS check while the 4.8k GS guy would... funny how that works out, eh?
Btw, the 4.8k GS guy is still in PvP gear and not PvE gear - he only has an iLvl 200 shield, iLvl 200 ring and trink, and even an iLvl 174 trink... the armor is typical BG grind.
9k dps on a average L230 Ele Shaman? Give me a link to your armory and I will verify it. Otherwise, it sounds like you are just making things up.
That is Rawr overall DPS. Sustained DPS would be 6907, burst 2302...heh, was a play on how folks ignorantly looking at numbers is an issue. Still, the guy's sustained DPS is better than the 5k+ GS guys. Heck, that was even without a Lock dropping out an Imp SBolt, which would take him to 7133 sustained.
How about the four guys self-buffed then, eh?
Dest Warlock - 4160 DPS
Ret Paladin - 3705 DPS
Frost Death Knight - 3399 DPS
Ele Shaman - 3903 DPS
This is using Rawr v2.3.18 and pulling from Armory.
Playing around with buffs, I still cannot get the Warlock anywhere near the Shaman.
The iLvl came from the gearscoreaddon site as 230. wtfismygearscore has it as 231 with the same GS of 4835.
If you want to import into Rawr for yourself, here are the characters (all on Draenor):
Kincayd, the Warlock - Grimvald, the Paladin - Tyrantalus, the Death Knight - Ehdreon, the Shaman
When you first load the Shammy into Rawr, the overall DPS is 10422 with a sustained of 7816.
And for the guy that did not believe the low DPS on the toons, the other guy read what I said about these guys being in PvP (not PvE gear)... which is another fail issue for GearScore.
Which is funny, cause I think that the mousover should display the GS you can get by targeting a player and doing /gs - most of my guys lose 15% or more of their GS because of Res or the caster's missing Spell Hit.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I'm not defending it; I consider it a horrible game mechanic .. but it does make a sort of sense.
When in a PUG, you're dealing with unknowns. Player skill is not a visible quality. Gearscore is. It's always a bit of a gamble, but a higher gearscore at least reduces the chance that a player will be absolutely terrible on the grounds that:
1. If they have great gear, they've obviously been in a lot of groups. Experience counts a little.
2. The higher the gear is, the more the item stats will act as a crutch to mitigate poor performance.
And we are talking about MMORPGs right? isn't the whole point to be social. If you play a game to lvl 80 and you haven't developed a dozen or so friends that you can run a 30 minute heroic with, then you fail more than the people talking about gearscore.
If you put yourself in a position where your only chance to do heroics is constantly with 4 strangers, then God forbid they want some determinable way of knowing if you are going to waste their time. GS and acheivements are a quick and easy way.
In the absence of all other information (ie, strangers) of course people are going to want to avoid grouping with people who will waste their time.
So again, in the course of leveling to 80, and getting experience running heroics.. you didn't meet 50 people to fill up your friends list? You didn't join a guild? And remember, most players in WOW are talking in guildchat or with friends... the morons are the ones who have 'public conversations' in /trade.
I've never in my gaming experience encountered 'gearscore'. The closest I have come to it is when talking to a guildmate and mentioning the iLevel of my worst piece of equipment (deciding what to spend frost emb on).
Gearscore is for people who can't make friends or join a productive guild. If you are one of those people, then don't blame the game for allowing others like you to assess your skill. The rest of us are in guilds or have a group of friends who never even think about what gear we have on except when the boss dies.
Most of my friends stopped playing WoW two years ago. I was the first person in the guild to login in over a year when I got the 7 day free retrial thing earlier in the year. Other friends are in progression guilds, where it is pretty much a requirement that you are raiding daily... that does not quite work for me.
So yeah, for some people...they end up pugging it. Aside from the same people you might see in WG, lol - I almost never saw anybody more than once while in random BG queues or doing random Heroics.
When leveling in a group for quests makes it take longer, the RDF while leveling is cross-server...yeah, could see where a lot of people do not make that social connection you point to...
...for a lot of people, they look around and really do not want much to do with the community; and it is hard to blame them - it kind of sucks.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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All this talk of how important skill is relevant to gearscore. I thought WoW had no skill, or at least very little of it- at least once you got down your basic rotation.
You apparently do not know about raiding much. MOST of the guilds still haven't killed the lich king yet, and they are not able to do the heroic content.
I would love to see you going into fight sindragosa and stand there with your basic rotation. You will be a gold mine to pay for your repair bills.
The GS addon now shows your 'skillscore' based on past experience and the gear for your current talent set. It actually makes sense this way. Before a healer could 'pass' the GS check with tank gear on, for example.
I always hear "I'd rather take a skilled but undergeared player than an awesomely geared idiot."
I haven't seen it in action.
Not on a huge scale, anyways. In a guild, yes, because (most) guilds understand that you need to get the gear somehow, so they'll tolerate your crappy gear until you get better items. PUGs? Different story. I see PUGs as a last resort; if you need help with something, you'll probably turn to your family/friends (guild) before random strangers who expect you to be completely STRONGSAUCE so they can get their loot ASAP (PUG).
Blizzard made gear far too powerful, and they've realized it. Apparently, they're going to try to change it with Cataclysm. We'll see.
The GS is a good indicator to use when you are creating Pick Up Group raids, but it is pretty useless for guilds.
Other indicators to use are:
- Achievements (instance specific and/or other hard encounters)
- Inspection
If I am collecting a ICC10 raid that aims to do a lot of hardmodes. I would use all those indicators in order to assemble a good raid. For normal mode ICC raids, I would still probably use all three, but with lesser requirements. However, if I am collecting a VoA raid or ToC raid, I would mostly use Achievements.
"I always hear "I'd rather take a skilled but undergeared player than an awesomely geared idiot.""
Well, this is a good idea in theory, but unfortunately it does not work in WoW anymore. Especially in PUGs where performance will almost never be as good as in organised raids by guilds. You always want to create a raid that is suitable for a task at hand. You also have to keep in mind that PUGs often dispand after first few unsuccessful attempts. ICC for example has many encounters that will test the gear level of your raid. Many encounters are either healer heavy or DPS heavy. Having great players with substandard gear will not take you that far - unless you got time on your side - not true for most PUGs.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
CBA reading the entire thread sry, surely someone brought this up already in which case just ignore me.
GS is situational, not totally rubbish but you cant rely on it entirely ofc. For guilds I cant see it having any use at all. For PUGS however its about playing the numbers. You want to maximize your chance of succes.
Now if you got 9 dependable guys on friendslist who all happen to be online then good for you. You're all set! If you dont, you need to invite 9 'randoms'. Now considering you know nuffin about them except their gear/achievements... would you want these 9 guys to have 4k GS or 5k GS? This is the only thing you know about them, their gear. As far as you know, they are of equal skill. You want the guys with 5k ofc.
Like I said GS is situational and there's no guarantee the guys with higher GS will perform better, they are more likely to tho. Relying on the GSaddon in every situation is kinda nuts, but assuming the opposite, that ppl with high GS are worse players is just plain stupid.
I dont like the GSaddon myself, and I dont like where achievements have taken raiding. When I played I always made sure to have my friendslist full of ppl I knew could perform.
Everyone has this wrong and it's such a simple concept.
A skilled player more than likely can overcome the "deficiencies" of a 4k GS.
Any player can overcome the "deficiencies" of a 5.6k GS.
When forming a PUG, you are more likely to party with "any player."
Hence the desire for higher gear scores.
It's not dumb. It's actually quite logical.
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Since there is no way to measure your "skill" level, GearScore is the next best thing. Yeah its not accurate and a 6K GS guy that sux may do half the DPS compared to a 5K GS guy that knows his business. But chances are, a 6K GS guy will do more DPS then a 5K GS DPS.
If there was no GearScore, then you would have to trust the word of a guy, dreassed in blues, boasting he out DPSed fully-purpled guy in ICC raid.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
That is another thing that bugs me about WoW - the achievement thing is so bugged. Not sure if it was the server change I did four years back or the fact I have not been a constant subscriber since release, but most of my toons do not even have half the achievements that they have the gear in the bank from doing... it is kind of sad.
Also even with this, you do face the issue of people being on alts - so they may have more knowledge of whatever you are planning on doing than may be apparent.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
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The skilled player can min/max the 4k GS to get the most out of it.
The unskilled player with a 5.6k GS could drop a rock and somehow manage to miss the ground.
There are multiple issues here. Some people are against all forms of gear scores. Some people are against GearScore itself.
I fall into the latter.
I agree that to an extent as a baseline, that some form of gear check would be a good thing - WoW does it themselves on certain Heroics (you cannot queue for them until you have better gear). This would fall into the not trying to run ICC in level 80 quest greens and blues.
It would be good to have something that actually took into account the glyphs, gems, enchants, PvP or PvE, achievements, etc, etc - to give you that basescore. It would still not be 100% reliable, and people would need to be realistic in what scores they are looking for in going into certain content... cause if you are just farming emblems and you are using the random queue, you may actually run into people that are there to get the gear - whether alts or fresh players.
That being said, GearScore does not do this. So people using a faulty system with inflated scores is kind of...stupid. IMO.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I'm not even sure where to start here..
Gearscore is a rough approximation of the quality of the gear that a particular player is wearing. It is also a rough indication of the experience level of the player. A low gearscore would indicate that a player hasn't ran that many random dungeons yet.
Of course it has NOTHING to do with skill, which brings up another point...
Pleast stop fooling yourself into thinking that ANY MMO actually requires SKILL.
Actually, everything in life requires some form of skill at some level...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Sure, you could argue that it takes just as much skill to wipe your ass as it does to play WoW. So now do we argue about wiping techniques and skidmark avoidance?
Even WoW requires a certain amount of skill. I would say that it probably takes longer as a kid to be instructed and figure out their particular proper technique for wiping butt than it does for a teen/young adult/adult to learn the particular steps required in a WoW raid; but then again, to be a fair comparison - you would need that young adult that has never wiped their butt before or you would need to try to teach the toddler the raid....
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I don't like gear score anymore than the next person. Mainly because i know I can outplay, out dps, and out heal most people in a gearscore almost 1k more than me. On the other hand If people are puttign together a group of people they do nto know , It would make perfect sense to at least take people who are geared really well since mostpeople suck horribly at playing WoW.
The only ligitimate complaint I have is, people nto knowing what gear score is adequate for content they are doing. Like a 5700 gs for Gruul's lair or some shit .... and no Im not exagerating. People are dumb.
This! This! This!
This is the complete fail of someone who has never done ICC 25 man. Every DPS is required to be able to put out 6.5k dps on festergut. If you can't put out that kind of single target DPS then your raid fails, bottom line. Link me one WWS of a 4k GS dps putting out 6.5k dps on fester. Just one. If the 5k GS dps can't do it either (and I've seen it) they get booted. My rogue, 5045GS does 7800 DPS on fester. If I couldn't pull over 6.5k, then I have no place in the raid and I couldn't pull it with a 4k GS.
I have four 80s in the 5100-5300 GS range. None of them can put out more than 3-4k DPS if that.
Aside from weapons, all four of them are sporting all PvP gear with 900-1100 or so Res and are in the 27-30k range on health.
The 4k GS guy in PvE gear is going to put out more DPS than me, no itemization for Res and less on Stam.
Heck, my guys actually ended up at a certain point doing less DPS as their GS increased and I switched more to PvP pieces than PvE.
Yes, when you mouseover my toon...yep, GS is real helpful.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
First of all you dont need skill to play wow, next you dont need gear just before a new xpac, next if you are into so called hardcore raiding, its no 'achievement' it doesnt take skill to beat low lvl AI. (it takes even less to beat the avg. wow player in PVP).
The feel good factor when you get your 'epix' is like showing off your 'fuzz' to 5 yr olds.
....5 80's, 2 70's all DeathWing-US gold farmers...
As I said above, I've seen people sneak in with PvP gear and even >5k GS pve people with crap dps. Then, after marrowgar fail where they invaribly reveal themselves, they get booted. Hell, I can look at spike damage and tell you who is in PvP gear and will be getting the boot. GS is a tool, in conjunction with recount, that can make sure you have the right makeup. I'm not arguing your dps sucks in PvP gear. Believe me, no arguments here. I'm just saying that your 4k "pve geared" dps is not going to cut it on festergut, no matter how skilled they are. Here's an easier one. I won't heal a 3.5k GS tank on heroic HoR. I don't care how "leet" you think you are, you have no business in heroic hor with that kind of GS.
The argument is not really about a gear check encounter. It is in general how GS is being used, and the GS requirements people are setting for encounters that are absurd - that is where you get into the 4k (which is not really about somebody with 4k literally, but looking at those on the plus side of 4.5k) people can make the 5-5.5k people look sad.
Just for the giggles, I decided to take a look at GS, W-H, and Rawr overall (std raid buffs, not pots/food, no hero/blood) for my four 80s (taking into account that although my sub is good through the 18th, I uninstalled the game last week and cannot change out PvP trinks, etc).
Destro Warlock - GS (iLvl 247, 5371), W-H (2559), and Rawr (5630 DPS)
Ret Paladin - GS (iLvl 229, 5276), W-H (2592), and Rawr (5568 DPS)
Frost Death Knight - GS (iLvl 242, 5236), W-H (2568), and Rawr (5356 DPS)
Ele Shaman - GS (iLvl 230, 4835), W-H (2368), and Rawr (9209 DPS)
So based on what you have said, the three guys with a GS in the 5.2-5.4k range would not pass the DPS check while the 4.8k GS guy would... funny how that works out, eh?
Btw, the 4.8k GS guy is still in PvP gear and not PvE gear - he only has an iLvl 200 shield, iLvl 200 ring and trink, and even an iLvl 174 trink... the armor is typical BG grind.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
9k dps on a average L230 Ele Shaman? Give me a link to your armory and I will verify it. Otherwise, it sounds like you are just making things up.
Yeah I dont belive this either, I had a ret pally with a 5.3k GS pre ICC, and was able to do well over 7k dps. I have seen Locks Top damage meters with lower GS and Frost Dk dps... Seriously why you even trying in frost. if you have that GS go Blood or Unholy.
As for the people who dont like GS, run a few heroics get the gear and get up there, its not that hard. GS might not mean skill but atlest gives you the biggest advantage with your skill.
Healers and GS dont mean crap! Saw one post in here how hes undergeared compared to other healers and out healing them... its all depending on the class that your healing at, A good Disc priest will never be on top of the healing meaters, a good Holy pally will never have good over heals, a good shammy will do more then spam chain heal, its not hard to top healing charts, but that dont mean your the best healer out there. if the party lives without a death thats how you can tell if there are good healers, not by the amount show on the healing meaters.
And we are talking about MMORPGs right? isn't the whole point to be social. If you play a game to lvl 80 and you haven't developed a dozen or so friends that you can run a 30 minute heroic with, then you fail more than the people talking about gearscore.
If you put yourself in a position where your only chance to do heroics is constantly with 4 strangers, then God forbid they want some determinable way of knowing if you are going to waste their time. GS and acheivements are a quick and easy way.
In the absence of all other information (ie, strangers) of course people are going to want to avoid grouping with people who will waste their time.
So again, in the course of leveling to 80, and getting experience running heroics.. you didn't meet 50 people to fill up your friends list? You didn't join a guild? And remember, most players in WOW are talking in guildchat or with friends... the morons are the ones who have 'public conversations' in /trade.
I've never in my gaming experience encountered 'gearscore'. The closest I have come to it is when talking to a guildmate and mentioning the iLevel of my worst piece of equipment (deciding what to spend frost emb on).
Gearscore is for people who can't make friends or join a productive guild. If you are one of those people, then don't blame the game for allowing others like you to assess your skill. The rest of us are in guilds or have a group of friends who never even think about what gear we have on except when the boss dies.
That is Rawr overall DPS. Sustained DPS would be 6907, burst 2302...heh, was a play on how folks ignorantly looking at numbers is an issue. Still, the guy's sustained DPS is better than the 5k+ GS guys. Heck, that was even without a Lock dropping out an Imp SBolt, which would take him to 7133 sustained.
How about the four guys self-buffed then, eh?
Dest Warlock - 4160 DPS
Ret Paladin - 3705 DPS
Frost Death Knight - 3399 DPS
Ele Shaman - 3903 DPS
This is using Rawr v2.3.18 and pulling from Armory.
Playing around with buffs, I still cannot get the Warlock anywhere near the Shaman.
The iLvl came from the gearscoreaddon site as 230. wtfismygearscore has it as 231 with the same GS of 4835.
If you want to import into Rawr for yourself, here are the characters (all on Draenor):
Kincayd, the Warlock - Grimvald, the Paladin - Tyrantalus, the Death Knight - Ehdreon, the Shaman
When you first load the Shammy into Rawr, the overall DPS is 10422 with a sustained of 7816.
And for the guy that did not believe the low DPS on the toons, the other guy read what I said about these guys being in PvP (not PvE gear)... which is another fail issue for GearScore.
Which is funny, cause I think that the mousover should display the GS you can get by targeting a player and doing /gs - most of my guys lose 15% or more of their GS because of Res or the caster's missing Spell Hit.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Most of my friends stopped playing WoW two years ago. I was the first person in the guild to login in over a year when I got the 7 day free retrial thing earlier in the year. Other friends are in progression guilds, where it is pretty much a requirement that you are raiding daily... that does not quite work for me.
So yeah, for some people...they end up pugging it. Aside from the same people you might see in WG, lol - I almost never saw anybody more than once while in random BG queues or doing random Heroics.
When leveling in a group for quests makes it take longer, the RDF while leveling is cross-server...yeah, could see where a lot of people do not make that social connection you point to...
...for a lot of people, they look around and really do not want much to do with the community; and it is hard to blame them - it kind of sucks.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%