Macroing now allowed in Mortal

Slapshot1188

SV has just changed their macroing policy to say it is OK as long as you are near the KB (well.. there is some confusion about also allowing it when AFK but we can skip that for now).

 

This was their original statement on the matter:

 EDITED OUT THE SCREENS AS IT WAS TOO HARD TO READ (scrolled off screen).  If interested read the threads here:

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/30164-macroing-afk-macroing-during-beta.html#post663291

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/44612-afk-macroing-allowed.html

 

Now they seemingly don't care if its a G15 or software.. which seems to go directly against what Maerlyn said (he CLEARLY said both macroing and AFK macroing were out).  Now.. the question posed is:

 

Is this a GOOD thing?  Since people were going to macro anyway.. just make it open for all

Is this a BAD thing? Slippery slope.. letting 3rd party tools play the game opens the door for abuse

 

Either way.. this issue probably deserved an official post by a team member instead of a sreenshot by some random guy.

 

So what do you think about the change?  Yay? Or Nay?

 

 

 

funkmastaD

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

SV has just changed their macroing policy to say it is OK as long as you are near the KB (well.. there is some confusion about also allowing it when AFK but we can skip that for now).

 

This was their original statement on the matter:

 EDITED OUT THE SCREENS AS IT WAS TOO HARD TO READ (scrolled off screen).  If interested read the threads here:

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/30164-macroing-afk-macroing-during-beta.html#post663291

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/44612-afk-macroing-allowed.html

 

Now they seemingly don't care if its a G15 or software.. which seems to go directly against what Maerlyn said (he CLEARLY said both macroing and AFK macroing were out).  Now.. the question posed is:

 

Is this a GOOD thing?  Since people were going to macro anyway.. just make it open for all

Is this a BAD thing? Slippery slope.. letting 3rd party tools play the game opens the door for abuse

 

Either way.. this issue probably deserved an official post by a team member instead of a sreenshot by some random guy.

 

So what do you think about the change?  Yay? Or Nay?

 

 

 

 

 

You're asking for our opinions on a 'change' that frankly, we don't know anything about?

Hell, reading the quote from Pompeii (head GM), it sounded like "attended macro'ing" (being at computer and using G35 keyboards or whatever)  was being OK'd, but nothing else.  If I'm not mistaken, that's been the  unwritten rule all along (nothing official ofc, but that seemed to be the consensus amongst the GMs when talking to us in less public mediums (like the PM that the one guy posted), so I don't really see a change, except that their unspoken understanding was spoken.  What we're looking at here, i think,  is speculation, so it's not exactly smart to voice our opinions on speculation.  Here's to hoping there's another post from the devs to clarify, but as it is I don't see any actual change in the rules.

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by funkmastaD

 

 

You're asking for our opinions on a 'change' that frankly, we don't know anything about?

Hell, reading the quote from Pompeii (head GM), it sounded like "attended macro'ing" (being at computer and using G35 keyboards or whatever)  was being OK'd, but nothing else.  If I'm not mistaken, that's been the  unwritten rule all along (nothing official ofc, but that seemed to be the consensus amongst the GMs when talking to us in less public mediums (like the PM that the one guy posted), so I don't really see a change, except that their unspoken understanding was spoken.  What we're looking at here, i think,  is speculation, so it's not exactly smart to voice our opinions on speculation.  Here's to hoping there's another post from the devs to clarify, but as it is I don't see any actual change in the rules.

 If you read the first linked post from Maerlyn he states:

 

"So: macroing/afk macroing during Beta: fine -- after beta: breach of EULA with consequences."

Quite clearly stating BOTH macroing AND AFK macroing.  If there is a  posted change to that feel free to correct me, but that was the latest posted update I could find. Prior to today at least.

I actually think this is a good thing since they weren't going to be able to track down macroers.  The old rules just punished those who followed the rules.  As you say though.. they should obviously have communicated the change better.

 

 

I actually came across the issue due to a post I found by princereaper: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/44626-you-happy-about-afk-macroing-being-allowed-real-one-other-messed-up.html

Toferio

Well, I guess they realised their gathering animation sucks..

zephar123

Personally I would say its a good thing. if their AFK is easy policed by the players themselfs since you can just kill em and take their loot .

Fledo

Originally posted by zephar123

Personally I would say its a good thing. if their AFK is easy policed by the players themselfs since you can just kill em and take their loot .

Which I have done many times, =D

colutr

It's not a bad thing honestly. There is an attribute cap and most people have already reached it by now just by attended mining, killing animals and riding horses.

Also when it comes to gaining skillpoints that is a bit more than just macroing. You would have to bot in order to automate the crafting process as it is a series of clicks and button presses and maybe even a bit of moving around to do. Making a 'bloodwall' also ventures into the area of botting.

Either way I know this much, the mining and lumberjacking animations move the camera alot and it is hard to sit there and watch it and push the button to do it so I leave my game up macro it and when my weight is full I go bank it. Attended of course, but I still glance over at the TV and browse the interweb on my 2nd monitor.

Agricola1

Originally posted by colutr

It's not a bad thing honestly. There is an attribute cap and most people have already reached it by now just by attended mining, killing animals and riding horses.

Also when it comes to gaining skillpoints that is a bit more than just macroing. You would have to bot in order to automate the crafting process as it is a series of clicks and button presses and maybe even a bit of moving around to do. Making a 'bloodwall' also ventures into the area of botting.

Either way I know this much, the mining and lumberjacking animations move the camera alot and it is hard to sit there and watch it and push the button to do it so I leave my game up macro it and when my weight is full I go bank it. Attended of course, but I still glance over at the TV and browse the interweb on my 2nd monitor.

 Like this guy says there's a pretty low skill cap so one day and you can pretty much be where you want. Doing it to gather mats, well the only decent mats are outside the towns and you'll probably get raped while macroing AFK so I don't see the big deal.

I use my merc stealth to macro in town to build up my stats doing logging mostly, good for strength and constitution but a few hours and I'm at max and I have to kill pigs and stuff which I can't macro. Also everyone who can does macro in an MMORPGs it's a fact that SV is aware of, macroing in this game doesn't give you the advantages it would in others due to it being FFA PvP with full loot. Try botting in the wild and you will just be providing others with mats.

Koisad

I think its allowed now because they are changing the gathering system to be more like Eve system. not sure how alike they will be tho.

funkmastaD

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by funkmastaD

 

 

You're asking for our opinions on a 'change' that frankly, we don't know anything about?

Hell, reading the quote from Pompeii (head GM), it sounded like "attended macro'ing" (being at computer and using G35 keyboards or whatever)  was being OK'd, but nothing else.  If I'm not mistaken, that's been the  unwritten rule all along (nothing official ofc, but that seemed to be the consensus amongst the GMs when talking to us in less public mediums (like the PM that the one guy posted), so I don't really see a change, except that their unspoken understanding was spoken.  What we're looking at here, i think,  is speculation, so it's not exactly smart to voice our opinions on speculation.  Here's to hoping there's another post from the devs to clarify, but as it is I don't see any actual change in the rules.

 If you read the first linked post from Maerlyn he states:

 

"So: macroing/afk macroing during Beta: fine -- after beta: breach of EULA with consequences."

Quite clearly stating BOTH macroing AND AFK macroing.  If there is a  posted change to that feel free to correct me, but that was the latest posted update I could find. Prior to today at least.

I actually think this is a good thing since they weren't going to be able to track down macroers.  The old rules just punished those who followed the rules.  As you say though.. they should obviously have communicated the change better.

 

 

I actually came across the issue due to a post I found by princereaper: http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/44626-you-happy-about-afk-macroing-being-allowed-real-one-other-messed-up.html

I didn't explain myself correctly I don't think...  There's always a difference between the rules as written (EULA) and the rules in practice (GM decisions).  My point was that:

-  the EULA, I don't think, is being changed.  As such, Maerlyn's words were correct; after release 3rd party programs (including macros) will be in violation of the EULA.  

-  The views of the GM reflected the rules in practice;  he said "we won't ban on it", as long as it's attended.  This is clearly (imo)  him saying "while technically against the EULA, here is our take on it".    Since this seems to be consistent with GM statements in the past, I believe this is also not a change.

I understand discomfort for someone who is saying "ok, I wanna macro (while attending the keyboard), but I don't want SV to drop the hammer on me on a whim"... while this is a sticky situation, it's pretty common whenever you have humans enforcing human rules, and I'm sure there's a few examples in most every MMO .  

If one is truly worried about it, just get used to tapping 5 until SV caves and puts in an auto-cycle system.

Slapshot1188

 

11th June 2010, 23:55	#4 (permalink)
Maerlyn vbmenu_register("postmenu_903531", true); Community Manager     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Germany Age: 30 Rep Power: 26	I will address the situation about macroing in an announcment very soon, yes. I am aware there are conflicting information circulating right now. __________________ ~ Teh law ~ Counselor Program ~ In omnibus requiem quaesivi et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro. Nothing screams "owned" like the chilly autumn breeze on your buttocks at the priest stone... -Milarepa
vbrep_register("903531")

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by funkmastaD

I didn't explain myself correctly I don't think...  There's always a difference between the rules as written (EULA) and the rules in practice (GM decisions).

 Actually if you read the screenshots you will see that the lead GM states that he was instructed by Henrick not to ban macroers.  Not exactly left to GM decisions.

 

As I linked above.  Merlyn has posted that there is "conflicting information"  which he will clarify "very soon".  Of course that was Friday but they took the weekend off so I would say we should see the announcement Monday.

AikenDrum

Here is the real problem. When a system has been designed that players would rather use macros and 3rd party applications for, than actually play the game and participate in that system, something is seriously wrong with the design. 

DAS1337

Originally posted by AikenDrum

Here is the real problem. When a system has been designed that players would rather use macros and 3rd party applications for, than actually play the game and participate in that system, something is seriously wrong with the design. 

True, and this has always been the probelm with a skill based progression system.  You don't see macro'ers in theme-park games, there has got to be a reasonable alternative...

 

Perhaps a level system that will allow us to place an alotment of skill points anywhere we want to, but we are the only ones that can see our level?  Though, a level system most likely means the introduction of quest driven content.. 

 

Slapshot1188

My opinion is that the problem is not so much with tasks in game but is inherant in a genre that provides rewards for playtime.  By this I mean.. increased skills.. levels.. resources.. items.  You get more of these the more you play.

 

Thus.. people are incentivised to find ways to maximize their actual at the keyboard time.  They are drawn to macro programs which let the computer perform repetative tasks without direct input from the player.  Sometimes this is a very inefficient means of gaining (skill/levels/resources/items) but it is still more than a player would gain by being offline.  Some of the macro programs can become full on bots where multiple actions are performed completing a full cycle of production.  An example would be a macro program that attacked nearby mobs.. then healed.. rested... and started again..

 

People use these when performing other tasks. Perhaps homework.. perhaps watching a movie.. perhaps sleeping.  In each case they are gaining an edge over a person who is manually performing all the functions.  Afterall.. if there was no benefit to using it.. they wouldn't be used.

 

To me.. this is why it is of the utmost importance to either BAN all such programs with an enforceable means of regulating them.. OR allow them to be used freely.   The worst case scenario is making them "against the rules" but not having a means and/or will to enforce it.

Dalmont

To me, the problem is the macroers, these are the people that cheat in the game.

 

To wrap it up as ok due to the fact the game design/time contraints mean that 'to be competitive' you 'have to macro' means you are just not wanting to play the game as designed.

 

These are probably the same people who,

1) Grief

2) use aim bots in FPS

3) Use speed hacks in FPS

Basically people with no care of how they upset or hurt people..might even like kicking animals.

funkmastaD

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

My opinion is that the problem is not so much with tasks in game but is inherant in a genre that provides rewards for playtime.  By this I mean.. increased skills.. levels.. resources.. items.  You get more of these the more you play.

 

Thus.. people are incentivised to find ways to maximize their actual at the keyboard time.  They are drawn to macro programs which let the computer perform repetative tasks without direct input from the player.  Sometimes this is a very inefficient means of gaining (skill/levels/resources/items) but it is still more than a player would gain by being offline.  Some of the macro programs can become full on bots where multiple actions are performed completing a full cycle of production.  An example would be a macro program that attacked nearby mobs.. then healed.. rested... and started again..

 

People use these when performing other tasks. Perhaps homework.. perhaps watching a movie.. perhaps sleeping.  In each case they are gaining an edge over a person who is manually performing all the functions.  Afterall.. if there was no benefit to using it.. they wouldn't be used.

 

To me.. this is why it is of the utmost importance to either BAN all such programs with an enforceable means of regulating them.. OR allow them to be used freely.   The worst case scenario is making them "against the rules" but not having a means and/or will to enforce it.

 

 I agree with your premise but not your conclusion.  I think the distinction between "At keyboard" macroing and "AFK" macroing is most important here.   The at-keyboard macro'r is macroing because it's physically easier than hitting a key repeatedly.  (and yes, I agree this is a poor design choice that forces such behavior).  There is no effective difference between an at-keyboard macro'r and a guy who just hits the hotkey repeatedly... the yield's the same, the duration of the harvest is the same (since it's limitted by how long the player wants to be at the keyboard).  There's a conceivable boost to efficiency, but a marginal one.

AFK macro'ers are the ones that throw off the economy, by harvesting more than any human being could.  

I completely understand why this distinction did not make it into the EULA;  terms like 'at keyboard', or 'attended', are too easily exploitable to define activities SV would NOT approve of.  And macro'ers can be enforced like they are in other MMO's... reported to GMs, who then spam them with messages... if no response, punish.

edit:

I guess it just doesn't seem like a big deal to me... eh well, I'll shut up til the announcement... I'm just kinda bummed someone forced SV's hand on this issue... the unspoken rule system works well IMO.

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by funkmastaD

 

 

 I agree with your premise but not your conclusion.  I think the distinction between "At keyboard" macroing and "AFK" macroing is most important here.   The at-keyboard macro'r is macroing because it's physically easier than hitting a key repeatedly.  (and yes, I agree this is a poor design choice that forces such behavior).  There is no effective difference between an at-keyboard macro'r and a guy who just hits the hotkey repeatedly... the yield's the same, the duration of the harvest is the same (since it's limitted by how long the player wants to be at the keyboard).

AFK macro'ers are the ones that throw off the economy, by harvesting more than any human being could.  

 

 That is your opinion.  Mine is different.  Using a macro while performing another task (while still.. near the keyboard) is providing quite an edge.  Here is an example based on 2 hours free time before work:

 

Player 1 types up a report for 40 minutes, checks his Email and facebook accounts 20 minutes.  He then logs in to play the game for an hour before leaving.

 

Player 2 logs into game... starts macro program, does the above tasks simultaneous to macro program.  After he finishes (1 hour) he starts to play with all the resources/skills/stats that were gained by the macro program,

 

Now if you are going to tell me there is no diference between someone who starts a macro program and does nothing but watches it run for an hour.. that's probably true, but such a case would be quite rare I would say.

FreedomBlade

I have stopped playing MO because it is rather shoddy but, if I was going to play then I would kill ever macroer on sight regardless if the devs allow it or not. Darkfall was ruined by Macroers, however the only real people to blame for it are the devs themselves when they fail to put auto gather things in. 

I mean DF added auto gather a month after release as it was just stupid clicking a rock 1000 times and yet MO still did not add it in?

Retarded.

qazqaz123

sry but where do they say G15 is ok the rest aint? 

Im not sure if i read something wrong! 

 

However its up to ppl to stay updated on the rules as they change, they did state that 3rd party wasnt allowed. 

 

And im sry guys. G15 goes as 3rd party. 

 

But with your guys logic, as long as i hook the keyboard to a DLL then all macros is allowed. but those without aint?

Im sry faulty.

 

ATTENDED MACROING IS ALLOWED! 

 

not 

 

UNATTEND.. But it will only get you kicked

indiramourn

*Sigh*

In my opinion, having this discussion at all is a HUGE red flag for any MMORPG that's less than a week old.

Both Slapshot and Funkmasta are expressing valid opinions.  But if you give permission to people to do something in a game, they will do it.  So, guarenteed, from here on forward everyone who plays MO will start off Macroing skills.  And it just isn't the same as actually "playing" the game.

lOrdAYYapa

it just sounds like there, trying to make everyone happy. Im sure even if Macro'ing wasnt in the game, people would do it. Look at darkfall people were doing it for months, under Darkfall's nose until it got so popular they started banning people.

MO are just being lazy in some respect and just letting people do it. I mean who wants to stand from hours on end cutting a tree, in order to build a house or whatever.  I'll never macro just for that fact that its boring and at the end of the day, waste of the subscription fee.

LastChime

 The CM has admited there's conflicting information atm, and they will clarify it soon(TM). Until then I'd err on the side of caution. Either way don't much matter to me, at mid level skills on the 2 toons I mine with it takes me about 7 mins to fill up inventory, or about 150 keystrokes. Not much of a "grind" imo compared to some of the stuff I've done in other mmos.

 

  Either way I won't be macroing no need, not afraid of the carpal tunnel boogeyman at all (haven't got it over the last 20 or so years so one game ain't gonna make it happen).

Benthon

As long as the boring harvesting exists people will macro it. It doesn't matter if SV says it's okay or not.

Instead of focusing a major part of resources policing it, they should just come up with a better idea than how it exists currently.

Slapshot1188

Originally posted by funkmastaD

 

 

 I agree with your premise but not your conclusion.  I think the distinction between "At keyboard" macroing and "AFK" macroing is most important here.   The at-keyboard macro'r is macroing because it's physically easier than hitting a key repeatedly.  (and yes, I agree this is a poor design choice that forces such behavior).  There is no effective difference between an at-keyboard macro'r and a guy who just hits the hotkey repeatedly... the yield's the same, the duration of the harvest is the same (since it's limitted by how long the player wants to be at the keyboard).  There's a conceivable boost to efficiency, but a marginal one.

AFK macro'ers are the ones that throw off the economy, by harvesting more than any human being could.  

 Well.. the official word has been posted:

Today, 14:45	#1 (permalink)
Maerlyn vbmenu_register("postmenu_924132", true); Community Manager     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Germany Age: 30 Rep Power: 26	Macroing Due to our official announcements during beta there was a bit of confusion now regarding macroing since we released. With the implementation of "auto"-gathering we do not see a need for players to use macro tools at all. That being said we will not enforce against such tools since unattended macroing will pretty much get you killed in the game. We feel that this choice coincides with the freedom of a sandbox game, meaning we stongly believe that the community will regulate this on their own. __________________ ~ Teh law ~ Counselor Program ~ Moderator Program ~ In omnibus requiem quaesivi et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro. Nothing screams "owned" like the chilly autumn breeze on your buttocks at the priest stone... -Milarepa
vbrep_register("924132")

 

As I said... ALL macroing is now 100% legal.  Including AFK macroing (AKA botting) which as you stated will throw off the economy "by harvesting more than any human being could."  Also, there is no stated limit to the use of these programs thus they can be used to fully automate all aspects of the game such as training melee, magic, riding, stats, you name it.  Simply get a guild house and macro all night. (stat-loss for PvP?  No longer an issue... simply macro it back overnight and be 100% next time you login)

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

funkmastaD

Originally posted by Slapshot1188

Originally posted by funkmastaD

 

 

 I agree with your premise but not your conclusion.  I think the distinction between "At keyboard" macroing and "AFK" macroing is most important here.   The at-keyboard macro'r is macroing because it's physically easier than hitting a key repeatedly.  (and yes, I agree this is a poor design choice that forces such behavior).  There is no effective difference between an at-keyboard macro'r and a guy who just hits the hotkey repeatedly... the yield's the same, the duration of the harvest is the same (since it's limitted by how long the player wants to be at the keyboard).  There's a conceivable boost to efficiency, but a marginal one.

AFK macro'ers are the ones that throw off the economy, by harvesting more than any human being could.  

 Well.. the official word has been posted:

Today, 14:45	#1 (permalink)
Maerlyn vbmenu_register("postmenu_924132", true); Community Manager     Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Germany Age: 30 Rep Power: 26	Macroing Due to our official announcements during beta there was a bit of confusion now regarding macroing since we released. With the implementation of "auto"-gathering we do not see a need for players to use macro tools at all. That being said we will not enforce against such tools since unattended macroing will pretty much get you killed in the game. We feel that this choice coincides with the freedom of a sandbox game, meaning we stongly believe that the community will regulate this on their own. __________________ ~ Teh law ~ Counselor Program ~ Moderator Program ~ In omnibus requiem quaesivi et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro. Nothing screams "owned" like the chilly autumn breeze on your buttocks at the priest stone... -Milarepa
vbrep_register("924132")

 
As I said... ALL macroing is now 100% legal.  Including AFK macroing (AKA botting) which as you stated will throw off the economy "by harvesting more than any human being could."  Also, there is no stated limit to the use of these programs thus they can be used to fully automate all aspects of the game such as training melee, magic, riding, stats, you name it.  Simply get a guild house and macro all night. (stat-loss for PvP?  No longer an issue... simply macro it back overnight and be 100% next time you login)
 
Thoughts?
 

Stop equating macroing with botting, the two are very different.

But yeah, I disagree with SV's decision here.  Especially since auto-harvesting is in, I don't see why they couldn't draw the line there and just not waste too much GM time enforcing it.

I responded to your "reds will be stronger than ever!" argument in the other thread, but TL;DR - there's simply not enough grind to justify AFK grinding stats up... that's something that you could do in 30 minutes by just playing the game as you would otherwise.  Hell, red guilds would be better served to just harvest brownwood trees while AFK sleeping, they'd still get their stats up and maybe some wood as well.